Speaker Spotlight | John Darko’s take on speakers and acoustics (Part 2) 

When I first became an "audiophile" I remember sitting in a listening room going through 10 pairs of bookshelves (Totem, Sonus, B&W, Harbeth, etc.). The ones that just stood out [to me] for clean, accurate, neutral and deep sound were the Amphion Argon 2's, which I bought. I later added the Helium's for surrounds. My LCR's are now Paradigm, but my 2-channel is almost always the Amphions. I still love their sound. The "best" speakers are the ones that "speak" to YOU.

This series has been a great resource. As a guitarist and music enthusiast, it was so refreshing to hear you reiterate the fundamentals: invest in room correction, both physical and DSP. It will make an incredible difference that a simple speaker upgrade will not reflect.

Your ability to assess then explain objectively is what I find so helpful in your reviews! Thank you John.

I like the point about "learning your taste", as that's what I learnt as a precursor in my hifi listening, wherein I also learnt how to position speakers, what they were placed on etc, with it's interaction with the amps, preamp etc and how all that affected the overall sound stage (size), imaging, detail, timing, dynamics etc and not to forget how that sounded in the room I was - in over some time. It taught me about the qualities of sound I heard along with what I subjectively liked. The former might be natural timbre of a voice or instruments, it's frequencies, harmonics etc along with panned placement, a sense of space etc. These things I could determine without having to like or dislike what I heard. Yet with that understanding it also helped me understand what I liked, or what liked as I constantly experimented with it all and could then tailor it to my taste From there it's so much easier to work towards, affordably, a system you both understand objectively but also subjectively. But then it can take time to learn about what you subjectively like. When I did the sound engineering course that helped me understand a lot more about the technical side of what I'd been listening to for so long. It also helped me learn to record stuff so that I could actually place sounds/instruments in the sound field, the very thing I'd loved listening to on hifi. Where two fields merge as one! Also, for me, when you put all the parts together, including the room/acoustics - the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

I very much enjoyed this Q&A with real world questions. Thanks. More like this please!

i lucked out back in 1984 or 85 when Polk SDAs were first available . they were on sale for $ 750 . i had zero experience with hifi so i relied solely on a recommendation from a small shop near me in a college town. none of the students were spending that much on stereos hence the sale . He also recommended the Carver M1 amp and a parasound preamp . well to this day i have not found anything i like better even spending countless hours of research and six times the amount . sometimes it's just blind luck in getting the right combo BUT i would NOT recommend relying on luck . making a choice today is almost infinitely more difficult , due to the enormous variety of speakers and gear . So, Good Luck and listen listen listen until you can't anymore .

I agree, the #1 feature of an audiophile system is clarity. That is how I described it to my son when he was 12. I cranked up my Lexus Mark Livingston stereo and said see how we can still talk while it is super loud. That’s how you know it is a good system. When you listen to a song on a great system, you can easily understand all the lyrics and hear things like the jingling of a neckless of an actress in a movie. You hear things you didn’t before that distortion covered up. Really great speakers also disappear. You know while listening the sound is coming from the speaker but your ears tell you the sound is coming from the entire front wall. Room correction, DAC, and speakers especially the crossover are the most important components. I haven’t experimented with room treatment yet. The mix of the music really matters and I think some songs purposefully are mixed to sound good on crappy systems. A great system exposes how a track is mixed. Some songs I liked on normal systems sound bad and I don’t like listening to them, other songs I didn’t like that much but on the audiophile system I have, they are amazing. I expect the market to move to active speakers with all of the really good class D amps coming out. Speaker wire will be replaced with network CAT 6 wire. Systems will go pure digital to the speakers. DACs will get really good and cheap. Room layout will be optimized like Perlisten and Trinnov systems for HT. Will take 10+ years to get there but that’s where we are headed

I wish I'd known more about room correction earlier as it would have saved me thousands of £. I made 2 bass traps and 2 absorption panels for £30 and bought 8 UA Acoustic absorb/diffuse panels for £155 and the room/sound is amazing. You must do this in your room. Look into it chaps.

“The taste of the apple [or the sound of a loudspeaker]... lies in the contact of the fruit with the palate, not in the fruit itself; in a similar way ... poetry lies in the meeting of poem and reader, not in the lines of symbols printed on the pages of a book. What is essential is the aesthetic act, the thrill, the almost physical emotion that comes with each reading.” Jorge Luis Borges

With regard to your comment about listening to music at its highest quality, I would like to share an experience. Back in the day of FM radio in automotive applications, I would rather listen to a song that came in with a strong signal that was just ok or not my favorite Genre or track, as opposed to listening to my favorite track on a station that was fading in and out. Quality is paramount from my personal perspective , and I’ve enjoyed listening to music that I never would have considered listening to, but the quality of sound still make it enjoyable for me. 😊

Baba papa thats going back some , great conversion and discussion . I will no longer try and climb the ladder with speakers when i dont have any room treatment or perfect symmetry ,

Thanks Jesco & John for another interesting & informative discussion. I imagine the reason people are drawn to the Acoustic insider channel is to get impartial information (without the voodoo) that is presented in a way that beginners can understand. May I also recommend a very good series by Geoff Martin titled 'Introduction to Room Acoustics', which includes a lot of practical demonstrations to help understand the theory.

sub focus used to make much on a pair of spirit absolute zeros……and he is a phenomenal producer, so its more about getting used to your speakers over cost of speakers

I have something that might be relevant to one of the questions. Mixing Engineers never used the Yamaha NS-10 because it was a pleasant sounding speaker. I have heard of plug ins used in mixing to simulate the midrange heavy NS-10's. The lore, is "if you can make it sound good on NS-10's it will sound good on anything" I don't say this as a mixer. I am hungry for knowledge so I wanted to hear what people were talking about. I do have to go nuts with an EQ to make them sound better, or "tolerable" by my preferences.

“Neutral or natural sounding” means it sounds true to life. We all have been listening while living our entire lives and experiencing sounds, so living and listening is all of our reference. One of the main issues is lack of ability to reproduce subsonic detail. Subsonic information occur in natural life as well as ultrasonics. Both are important with regard to achieving a natural sound. A system that doesn’t reproduce frequencies above and below hearing limits the amount of naturalness, because in nature we are not limited to that small of a frequency range. 😊

I am an audiophile BECAUSE I am a music lover. as for speaker enclosure materials...Wilson, Magico, and Harbeth all have different approaches and and all have been well considered and have produced excellent results. and yes, concrete has been used by a consumer manufacturer with fine results. whereas hideous money isn't required, there are people that CAN afford them and some are spectacular in results and may lead technology. the affordable end can also be exceedingly satisfying such as the Andrew Jones items if used with ample power which can also be in the high value realm. sensible room treatment does NOT have to be half of the budget. i do prefer speakers over headphones but I do so love the headphone phenomenon. getting the most of what you want can be affordable with proper choices. the Audeze Maxwell is a multiple use unit that eliminates the need for a separate amp while providing planar technology and high accuracy with true deep bass.

Electronic Room correction treatment / software to my ears is often detrimental to the life and energy in the music , I’ve tried many times and always prefer to change speaker placement and actual room treatments as opposed to messing with the actual sound signal itself

My lack of a bottomless bank account has always steered me toward Magnepan speakers in 2.1 systems. Steadily upgrading my amplification over the years gave me a clear demonstration of how transparent Maggies are. They reveal all of the flaws, and exalt all of the benefits of any given system's synergy. Pairing Maggies with a sub is challenging, but I found a good match with a 250W 8" powered sub by Mirage that synced up perfectly with the phase reversed.

Thanks for the video. Interesting conversation. Sound perception is so subjective and what sounds good to one person or another varies from person to person. Viva la difference.

This was very interesting to listen to - I went the full hour straight so thank you both for great content :) One Audiophile vs one professional studio mastering engineer with different point of views :) John, it was a treat listening about your experiences regarding HiFi and I truly agree regarding what an Audiophile is. It is not about the money spend, it is about to learn and care for better sound, not about some background music, more about sit down in the sweet spot and listen and put your mind into the music and soundstage. You can easily reach this with interest together with smart second hand investments and intelligent implementations. Jasco, the things you describe in the end of the video regarding layering, instrument placements, depth, separation etc should be in every mixing/mastering engineers mind and goal and your know-how tells us that you are in a different level. With that said, how is it still possible that the quality of most music are NOT pleasing enough in these areas?!?!? Please educate as much as you can :) I fully agree that acoustic treatments are a huge factor to great sound and the bass is the hardest to get (more) right and almost requires DSP to tame and is not hurting the rest of the spectrum... But don´t forget about speaker placement and listening position - which are drastically changing the sound as well. My respect to both of you - well done! Cheers!

The Dutch & Dutch 8C active speakers Darko mentions is one of the best speakers in the world at only $15k. Stereophile lists them as one of the top 15 full range speakers and they’re the only stand mount ones. I’ve enjoyed my D&D’s for two years. Each speaker is Tri- amped/ 2 sub woofers internal DSP/ DAC / Ethernet etc I found them revolutionary and the sound I’ve been looking for all of my life.

Just a thought about the point that it is impossible to tell if one speaker is better than another.... if you feed signal from an analyser and record a response from the speaker (in an anechoic chamber) identical to the input signal ... then you can say it is accurate surely?? Wonder what Amir from ASR would say.

Interesting hearing our host talk about taste for choice on the part of engineers. It seems a bit at odds with the notion that you have to record all this stuff to play as intended on all potential systems. Seems to me that you want to choose something that's broadly representative of your target audience's playback, that is non-fatiguing. I like the stretching band idea later. I think importantly what we hear between different gear (or rooms for that matter) is the distribution of the stretched bits across the frequency spectrum, and dynamic spectrum.

Most excellent video/presentation...!!! At the end of the day, I can positively say "I'm glad I didn't take up 'mixing & mastering' as a career choice...!!! Some of the procedures and questions posited concerning how to squeeze that extra 5% performance improvement seem to border on the neurotic...? Please keep in mind, the aforesaid comments are given with only good intentions and a long-term love of music that really started when I was a teenager in the 60's, for me personally - so no animosity from me on the subject... I'm more of a 'put a system together and play it until it wears out' kind of audiophile... Luckily for me, the price-to-performance ratio these days is off the charts and I couldn't be happier...!!! Especially with the advent of high caliber 'active speakers' these days...!!! Kudos on this great video review...!!!

Its very easy to identify a neutral speaker, frequency response measurements tell you everything you need to know - distortion/directivity etc. What that sounds like in your room is a different matter but if you begin with a neutral speaker it is 90% solved

Steven Wilson creates glorious sounds/albums/mixes and doesn't use expensive speakers (Genelecs I think) and his music sounds incredible.

This is a great conversation, thanks!

Beautiful comparison using rubber band example 👌🏼

The Jesco room treatment is not that expensive! Not 50% of the total budget, I would think 20% or maybe less. But you will need some free time.

In my experience, speakers (bookshelf only for me) that tend more toward high end, or relatively more expensive often have more resolution but give something up that a more budget but competent speaker can do in a way that sounds more balanced in the areas I am sensitive to. I tried the Dali Menuet SE which had great resolution but seemed to omit or diminish micro details, certain sounds, textures picked up by the recording I have heard on many other speakers. It did add weight to notes and leading edges of piano but for what it did great, it also had omissions (what I call it) and in the nearfield, painted a nice but small 3D image of both voice and certain instruments. Move more than 5 feet away and it lost that. I preferred my budget Triangle Zetas over these. So, returned that but picked up the Dali Opticon 1 MK1 hoping it could balance out the presentation which it did. It performs very well in the nearfield but also from further away. These also gave more life to music not being IMO overly refined like the Menuet SE. More highs, more excitement but not like say Klipsch, Martin Logan (15i I had, great for movies but kind of confused with music) but very nice. Especially after playing these more and being accustomed to them. At first, I preferred my budget Triangle Zetas for music but now understand the differences. Adding a sub gives me a better presentation that Dynaudio Emit 10 gave. The Emits could sound good sometimes and then not so. Overly refined in the highs for me which veiled the performance . The Opticons add good amount of weight, resolution, separation, tonality, etc., to the degree I find these better for movies but also good but different for music vs the Zetas. The Zetas (essentially like the Color series) add more ambience or comes across more ethereal at times, it gives more extension to the highs, still has good separation, etc, as well as a larger stage (bit larger woofer) but loses out to the Opticon 1 in resolution and weight to notes. The Zetas are also a bit more laid back but neither are considered laidback speakers nor are too forward for those hating that kind of sound. The Opticon is a bit better in sibilant passages too, more noted in movies than music. The Zetas handle large Orchestras better when there's alot going on. Two different presentations, and didn't cost an arm and leg. Both acquired on closeout. For years I used Focal 807Ws which were better than the others above but smaller drivers do things larger drivers may not such as pinpoint imaging, sounds moving across the stage, etc, at least in my space. The Ws have more bass, more textured and faster bass as well as midrange texture which you can hear in instruments that display these. Not the most resolution you can get but enough, similar to Opticon, perhaps a bit better but they did alot better in other areas. Also, for being large speakers with a 7 in woofer, could eerily work in the nearfield because they seem to act like headphones up close, a very nice experience rather than hearing each individual speaker, they disappeared up close. I thought they had nice driver integration as well. The tweeters aren't as refined as the new Poron ones, but I preferred that. So, I tried both Monitor Audio Silver 100 and Quad S2 when using the Focal as well as the zetas. The MA had alot of bass which added to the lower mids but like the ML 15i and too a much greater extent kind of mushed the upper mids and highs in a way that jumbled details. Also had to turn down or up for th extreme dynamic swings which drove me nuts. So, given had both Alum. drivers I now tend to stay away from speakers with these. Although, if you listen to HT and like excitement, I really liked the ML 15i, so did the guy I sold them to. The Quads were really great with movies, resolution, detail, etc., and without issues of the Silver 100 but with music, it painted a very flat stage, and seemed lifeless with music to the degree I found them boring, dull, etc. A very strange and unexpected experience. Some might say they were neutral but music isn't a dull experience. Also, have heard various speakers using Kevlar so now I tend to avoid speakers using that material. Not to say it does poorly on everything, but for me, I just don't like it. I seem to like paper, fiberglass or doped, etc., for whatever reason. The only speakers I wonder about at this point but don't fit my needs currently, perhaps down the road are Fritz speakers, the Lumina II Amator and the Closer OGY. Perhaps a couple of others as well. But I am happy, knowing that while not perfect, what I have does emotionally move me. Amps... I went thru some over the years but have used a Hegel off and on since 2014 thru 2021. But I wanted a smaller option as the Hegel is pretty much overkill for all my speakers. The amp does add alot of life to music, especially piano while remaining smooth. I managed to find a smaller option in a Keces E40, far less power but still alot of damping to keep the bass sufficient , textured and tight. Mids are fantastic and smooths the highs a bit smoothed in comparison. For a 10 lb amp, it plays well enough. The Hegel is a bit smoother, more refined without giving up details and better in some areas but I want compact now (We all get older) and my system works well, both mains and desktop (I have 2 Keces E40s). I use both a Topping D70s and an Aune 18th upgraded with a Sparkos opamp and while the Dac in my Hegel is still a bit better IMO, in the Keces system you don't notice. Very well balanced and affordable gear in a smaller package that works well together. Now if one wants to listen at louder levels and have the stage sound more lifelke, the Hegel and Focals give a better performance. But, I don't listen at those levels. Mostly low to moderate levels, I can listen all day without damaging the hearing I have left. That's been my journey over 35 years or so. No desire to move up/spend more even though there is some other equipment I would like to experience. Perhaps down the road, for now, enjoying.

I got into xDuoo only because they are the only affordable company that implements rectifier tubes and the 12au7; which offers the most variety of tube tonalities. My recent purchase of the Sophia Electric Aqua II 274B has my ideal sound a tube can offer.

OMG.... and I know there are few who know this but 4:12 Is in fact true (and is where most people get it wrong [the gear chasers], mostly)!!!

I borrowed some Kef reference ones.. which I was thinking of upgrading to from my R3s, but I can honestly say I prefer the R3s. it’s not a particularly high-end system, but it’s in the region of 25K, I even prefer the R3 to the R3metas.. that’s my opinion based on my kit and my room..

One would expect that if stratospherically priced speakers are getting anywhere near to perfect that their sound would converge and sound similar. But in any number of auditions they sound as different from each other as they do compared to much lower priced speakers.

The answer is already in the interview, the ATC active speakers don’t use DSP there all analog in so if you put for instance a Rockna dac in front of them instead off a ifi dac the speakers will respond differently innately so it’s the most fair deal, there is also the acoustics and there is where John is completely right is almost 70% off resoled still only 10% off the audiophiles address the room

It’s kinda like the hair on your your head. Do you want combed hair or do you want the just got out of bed hair?

Great chat.

47:24 “you find things on accident “ Nothing more true. THIS!

I am pretty stretched for space and I spent a good amount of time getting my room where im pretty happy with how my mixes translate.. but damn if I move something moderately spaced around in the room.. the difference it makes. to the point im paranoid to move anything hah

Great content jesco , thanks for everything that you make in here , i would like to see you mixing some eletronic music one day lol

Thanks for the answers for learning speakers 😊 very helpful. Any engineer's want to add to that I would be very interested and grateful.

Absolute sound is not an illusion. Go to a Yamaha or Steinway piano in a theater or music room and play it or listen to it for sound. Thats real. Now compare your sample system and note differences with various recordings using the particular model of piano that is your reference. Do the same for various instruments. Including voices choirs quartets symphonies etc. The closes system to the real absolute sound is the more neutral.

Really enjoying this content. Well done.

Live performances use large woofer drivers (15", 21", etc.) thus small speakers can't replicate that sound, especially at high volume. I prefer two 15" woofer drivers in each of my speakers as they don't have to work as hard compared to just one (less distortion at high volume). Four 10" woofer drivers in each speaker might work as well. I haven't heard a line array of 6 1/2" speakers from floor to ceiling.

Active hifi speakers come with digitial streaming and apps etc so you need confidence in the manufacturers commitmemt long term to software updates.

DSP can affect room decay time. The obvious example being Dirac ART.

It’s nuts that people (including myself) will spend thousands of $$$ on speakers and amplifier without knowing if this is going to be a good match. I was going almost crazy when doing my research before this (for me) big financial purchase. Finally, I did buy KEF R3 Meta and paired them with TDAI-1120 amplifier. With a bit of experimenting with speakers placement and room treatment on top of it, I consider myself lucky with my choices.

In the same way our eyes are all different and see differently ( No 2 Pairs of glasses are the same), Similarly, no 2 people will have the same hearing and thus have a different auditory experience when listening to the same set of speakers. No one really knows what someone else is hearing.

If you listen to a mix that you like and has the vocal placed in one position, then you listen to another mix that has the vocal placed in a different place, why would you then chose to place the vocal of your next mix in the place you don’t like and not the place you do? Why is the position in mix you don’t like the correct way when sone other mix engineers mixed the first track with the vocal as you would?

Lets go!

No speaker sounds like a live performance. It just comes down to what speaker is furthest from not sounding live

I do buy the argument. If my amp dies, I just hook up another amp. I still would be able to listen to my speakers. Not so if you have active speakers.

For those wanting a giant killer based system try this: Teac VRDS-701 (CD player), Rotel 1592 MkII (integrated amp), Dynaudio Evoke 10 (loudspeaker). You will notice that with a high current amp like the Rotel, the Dynaudio will unleash impressive midbass capabiities. If you want sub-bass there is the Dynaudio 9S (subwoofer).

50/30/20 split,ok give a great guitar player a $50 guitar play a song any do you really think it will sound as better with room treatments or spend more $$ on guitar?

I see; speaker calibration as not only eq’ing the speakers according to room modes but a whole definition of positioning. And I find it is just as important as acoustic treatment because before the calibration you can find the sweetest spot both for yourself and speakers where to put and how to position them while measuring with a mic. Not by ear only. Doing nothing with eq but only positioning them with the help of the software (or system) and a mic is the main point of starting a calibration. Because the so called “the rules” of %38 or 1/3 or 1/5 didn’t help me at all. And (not for professionals but) I also think there are certain things that people can apply by themselves with DIY methods with nice decoration ways in their living rooms which won’t start a family argument. But the acoustic properties should be known of certain elements like glass wool, acousta-stuff or different kind of materials to be used in that living room. (And many of audiophiles need help/advice on that department.) I’m trying to find some solutions because for audiophiles, not all of them can afford these acoustic treatments by professionals or apply them for a rental house… and that spending %50 for the acoustic treatment is not something you can sell as 2nd hand or use the whole thing later if you move to another house but their system is. So the priority is important here…

A fun chat,thanks. Even if the perfect speaker existed,not everyone would like it,such is the subjective nature of this hobby.

Acora acoustics. Artificial stone speakers. Great for sound. But weight and shipping would be the downsides.

No hay nada definitivo porque esto es igual que catar un vino, ponemos a prueba nuestra capacidad sensorial de nuestro sentido como el oído y cada uno tendrá su propia percepción de acuerdo edad, estado , gusto etc, claro al igual que en el vino el paladar también se entrena

People mix music on speakers a lot cheaper than €1200. Kali for instance.

If the top end of mastering engineers are using uber high priced monitor systems with incredible detail (rubber band analogy) then why are so many masters so terrible? John Darko eluded to this with ridiculous dynamic compression on almost all modern remasters. Is it a case of you can have the (expensive) tools but still have poor taste?

SatisFICE

I never liked B&W. They looked gorgeous, but they sounded veiled.

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No real mixing engineers now use passive speakers anyway, a dsp corrected active speakers are not expensive, what are expensive are tunable dsp active speakers. Another thing that is expensive is the room treatment and time to get it right, that is not something money can buy it take alot of skill, equipment and software to make the room just right for recording. U might aswell mix using a headphone if u don't have a treated studio, that way nothing is affected by room acoustic, but again real engineers would use both.

There are great speakers that are poorly marketed.

I've always thought if you want accurate, you need headphones and recordings done in binaural ( Dummy head ) Image in stereo is wrong.

Ugh. So hard to watch.

Simple solution, find out what amplifier(s) the speaker company's are using when they design and listen to their own speakers.......then buy that amp!