Speed, Energy & Penetration | Waterfowl Ammo | Shotgunning Series pt 7 

What's your thoughts on using ballistic gel to test waterfowl ammo?

Joel, I’m an ex Winchester employee, I remember in the 1950’s Winchester test Center at Nilo farms conducted 1000’s of tests on Mallards held over a shooter at all distances to establish pattern quality, this was in the development of buffered loads which Winchester sold as waterfowl loads in the 1970’s through 1980’s. Quality pattern density is what I’ve always said kills birds. As you’ve found the claim that speed is king is nothing other than Bull Shite! Remember in the days of lead, 1200 fps loads patterned best and only during the 80’s shooters were persuaded that high velocity was best. Again all BS. As somebody with 35 years experience in the British Gun Trade I’m loving you exposing the crap I’ve listened to for years being torn up! Great work buddy! Regards Stuart

KPY does work very well. The 1.5" for ducks and 2.25" for geese does seem to be true. We entered pellet material, size, and muzzle velocity into kpy and then examined ranges of maximum clean kill distances from our own experiences per pellet size and material. We arrived at roughly the same gel penetration of 1.5" for ducks and 2.25" for geese. Basically used KPY in reverse. As an aside Tom Roster sold us all out as hunters with his research. The steel shells of the time weren't capable of the results he was publishing. But hey, when you are hunting prime refuges on taxpayers dollars for years in the name of research, you produce the results the government desires.......can't bite the hand that feeds you....

Joel! Outstanding work! Your delivery and position are spot on. Great way to present the research.

Thanks for the video (great job) ========================== 1. The equation u=s*t is wrong. The right is u=s/t. u=velocity s=distance t=time 2. KPY software penetration results are for 20% jel, not 10%. The same for Ballistics for windows, by Ed Lowry. And yes, 10% jel penetration is (about) 2 times of 20% penetration. 3. I've made an excel program which gives the same results with Lowry's Ballistics for windows and KPY Ballistics. It has a difference of about 4fps with steel @40 yards (with your results) and a little greater difference with TSS and bismuth which I corrected it, changes the material density. Now all results are matching. 4. About your question "What's your thoughts on using ballistic gel to test waterfowl ammo?" Pellet energy tells nothing about lethality. Penetration in 10% or 20% jel tells everything if you want to compare 2 rounds. If you have a round that you are satisfied with it, then ... a) Find the number of pellets in a 30" circle @ 40 yards. b) Find the central and peripheral penetration @ 40 yards. (central at the center and peripheral about 15" off center ... peripheral has more meaning in lead shot ...) c) If another round (with the same number and size of pellets) has about the same number of pellets in 30"circle @ 40 yards and greater central and peripheral penetration @ 40 yards then it will definitely be more lethal. More number of pellets in 30" circle @40 yards means less number of pellets outside the circle which means that you need to be more accurate in shooting. Nobody can do this from a day to another. So a more dense pattern not always means a more lethal shot, it depends on how accurate you are ... Thanks again ... from Greece.

Thanks for your insightful work and comments. Most usefulI and interesting information I have seen since Bob Brister. I shot ducks with lead for 30 years and non toxic, mostly steel since 1992. If lead were non toxic and we had the choice to go back to the standard lead duck load of 1 1/4 oz shot and 3 3/4 drams of powder with a muzzle velocity of 1330fps not many would say no. Steel in my opinion is reasonably effective to just short of 40 yds. I shoot an O/U. I dont like excessive recoil so shoot 1 1/8 #3 at 1350. I have tried the 3 1/2 inch shells and didnt care for them. I have shot ducks in Argentina with 1 1/8 #5 lead. Mostly rosie bill poachards, a little smaller than our mallard. Most were dead when they hit the water. With steel you better have a good dog or be young because the ducks generally have a lot of life when they hit the water. As for tungsten shot I'm sure its effective but very expensie and I wouldnt want to be on a public marsh where it is being used for safety reasons. Today for the little duck hunting I do I prefer BOSS Bismuth. These are my subjective emperical observations of hunting ducks for over 60 years with both leand and non toxic ammo.

I have found this entire series to be extremely fascinating. Thanks for doing the hard work and then putting it on the bottom shelf for the rest of us.

Thanks for pointing out the fallacy that high-velocity loads are more lethal. The reason high muzzle velocity doesn't matter is simple- round shotgun pellets aren't designed to maintain supersonic speeds. Round pellets don't have the pointed nose of a rifle bullet or jet fighter, so they encounter massive drag at supersonic speeds and QUICKLY slow to subsonic speeds (below 1125 fps). So go ahead and shoot rounds with 1100 - 1200 fps muzzle velocity; these can be highly lethal. Just make sure the pellet size, pellet density, and pellet count are appropriate for the shooting range and size of bird you're hunting.

You need to do a mini series on Turkey ammo 🦃. Your in depth analysis is great.

Another excellent video! Thanks for reiterating that hyper-velocity shells lose much of their speed advantage down range, and are also more difficult to obtain good patterns. Also appreciate you mentioning that it’s the number of pellets in the pattern that matters - not percentages. My personal rule of thumb has always been at least 100 pellets in 30” for big ducks, which jives well with your recommendation. Finally, gel penetration is not perfect, but it does give a good starting point. Shot that KPY estimates 1.5” of penetration into 20% gel will generally provide adequate penetration to reach & break the vital flight bones from most angles of entry into most duck species. That also is in good agreement with the Nilo Farms tests, which found an energy density of 235 ft.lbs./in2 was adequate to cleanly kill live mallards (That value of 235 ED translates to roughly 1.75” of penetration in 20% gel). Keep it up!

The Clear Ballistics gel is just a comparative medium, and in my opinion has become the standard. Everyone who uses the 10% gel can compare their results with others who use the same medium. Back in the early days pig carcasses or even human cadavers were used for testing.

Great video Joel. I noticed that you have been speaking with a lot of various "experts". I thought you might find this definition of an expert humorous. In mathematics "x" is an unknown quantity. And "spurt" is drip under pressure.

Great videos Joel! Can’t believe you still putting them out and guiding.

Dude I’ve been waiting over 30 days for this!

I’m hooked on this whole series thing you’ve got going on. Great content keep it up!

Your videos ROCK man

I'm curious to see if a larger shot has less speed loss than a smaller shot size, i.e... like, for example, BBB shot vs. #6 shot. That would make a great video. Take, for example, a meteorite penetrating the atmosphere. The smaller parts of it will slow down faster compared to the main meteorite against air resistance. Yep, there are a lot of logical falacies out there. Nive video, btw. 💪

Very Interesting video, but the Pattern is still the most important. Sounds like ballistic gel can compare 2 different loads, BUT..... It is not like a duck body with feathers, bones & fat. I have always believed that slower muzzle velocity will pattern better than higher velocities. I have proved it to myself and a few buddies, and the information in the video only confirms my testing. I have tested duck &goose loads, turkey loads and pheasant & quail loads, all with the same result, extra speed doesn't pattern!!! Thanks for your indepth work and time!!! Much Appreciated Mike Fry Ohio

Thanks for putting in the time to do these videos I love to geek out on them…

Appreciate the effort that goes into these videos Joel. It sure is an interesting subject. All the best from the UK buddy.

I just switched to boss #4 3" from Winchester blindsided #2 3 1/2". I was getting a ton of cripples using the Winchester. I haven't shot enough of the boss to really have a good opinion yet, but it seems to do a much better job stoning them. As always great video!

Making a lot of sense to me now.💡 After using BOSS for a season, Brandon asked me about my leading on waterfowl. I said it was just about the same. Even though my steel was faster than the bismuth.

Just as important, please test how much the shot blows off target in a 30 mile an hour cross wind, 40 yards and 60 yard test. I use nothing less than BBs for steel shot. This is the best series I’ve seen on shotgun ballistics. Thanks Much👍

Thank you!! Can’t wait for more!! Very similar to Dr. Ashby study on arrows!!

You’re one smart guy.

Really enjoying your Shotgunning Series. As a home-loader in the UK I have spent many hours asking the same questions. In the end you find something that works- for you. Doing the mathematics is a great starting point, but it will only get you part of the way. Keep 'em coming!

Hey Joel, Absolutely great video. I love the information. Keep up the good work. Blessings

Thank you for these videos

Great series. I just switched to apex TSS for my 20 gauge. The only duck that I have shot so far with it is a wood duck. I was shooting #8 TSS, at 40 yards the load shot completely through this duck from right side to left side. Keep up the videos Joel.

Love the videos and you are very helpful to all of the things that we think about when I’m the blind!!!

Great video 👍👍

Love your videos thanks

I have just crawled out of my depressive state caused by your shot string video… just in time for a ballistics test … 😮

Can't wait for the next video!! But again you ring true. Parenting and knowing your choke tube/ ammo is a wealth of knowledge.

Another great video in this series. Definitely makes you think and consider what you're shooting and when.

I don't hunt, but I do shoot a lot of shotguns. I LOVE your ballistic efforts mister, thank you!

Interesting. I can’t attest to any data regarding ducks as I’m not a duck hunter. As a pheasant hunter over the years I’ve changed ammo either due to cost, forced usage of nontoxic, and trying to get better kills. One thing caught my eye was about muzzle velocity. This years trip to NODak hunting pheasant, Huns, and the occasional sharpies I typically only run Nickel plated lead Fiocchi shot shells. In 12 ga golden pheasant 2 3/4 length 1 3/8 oz at 1485 muzzle velocity and 20 ga 1 1/4 oz 3 inch 1300 fps velocity. This year I started with the 12 ga SX4. I have patterned it in the past but this year I also purchased a 20 ga SX4 that I’ve been shooting since spring at the trap range. Usually I’m dead on with the 12 and these rounds. This time the first 3 birds I shot with single shots appeared dead when they hit the ground. Crap, all three ran and funding them was a pain. All taken at 30+ yards. Can’t tell you how frustrated I was and went back to the truck to grab the 20. Next three birds taken and numerous others over the next couple days dead kill with exception of a couple. This round is 1300 fps. My point is you reference uniformity of pattern. My testing at 35 yards showed almost identical pattern uniformity over the 4 quadrants of the pattern board between the two. Yet, I still missed or didn’t kill any of the initial birds. Maybe it was just poor shooting that afternoon. I do use modified choke in the 12 and have found value in full choke in the 20 (mainly due to lesser pellets in the 20). I’m going to have to rethink my thoughts on fps/velocity. Of course I’m going to do some more testing between this particular ammo. These guns carry and shoot very similar which is why I like them. I may also look at Fiocchi golden pheasant loads for the 12 at lower velocities (I believe there is a 1300 fps 12 ga load). I guess what I’m saying is I appreciate the info as I was really stumped as to why my shooting wasn’t bringing these guys down as in the past. 👍

Joel, I am enjoying this series. I learned (probably from Lowery in the 60's) that it takes 8 foot-pounds to kill a mallard and 10-12 to kill a goose. There was research and data. (It may have been Herter's). In the old days, a #4 lead pellet @1200fps muzzle velocity carried a little over 2 ft-lb to 50-60 yards, so your pattern had to deliver 4 #4 pellets in the mallard ( the old 1 1/4- 3 1/4 loads did well). Kinetic energy can be increased by more mass or more speed. Thus, "smaller" pellets at higher speeds that have dense patterns would work best. But this has diminishing returns (6 steel has much less mass than 3 steel). The theory is more speed increases kinetic energy, provided there is enough mass. But your data shows at 40 yards that is not happening, speed is significantly dropping off. That is helpful. I shoot reloads of 1oz of 3s at 1550 and 7/8oz of 4s at 1700. Within 40 yards they perform similarly. Beyond that, the 3s work better because, as your data shows, the speed difference is negligible, but the mass is not. This seems to be a separate issue from penetration in gel because it is a transfer of kinetic energy to the bird that kills it in most cases. Sometimes it does not (shot in the butt, a tougher bird, etc.) and sometimes there is a lethal penetration to a vital area, which we like. It seems those numbers (1.5) reflect the energy required for one pellet to penetrate a vital spot (head, heart, neck). The gel puts in visual the math.

Can’t wait to see the comparison to a lethal load What speed does it have to be for the sized shot used. The weight of the shot is fixed. So penetration is controlled by speed at target?

👍👍👍👍👍 Awesome Joel but your next video can't come soon enough!!! So many unanswered questions!!!!

Yes please, demonstration of whether shot string matters.

Those speeds for pellets are mind blowing. 50% reduction wow. Also is the 1.5 penetration for body strikes ???

Hey Joel, watching from Scotland, Great video again!! Nobody else is providing this detail which is just fascinating. You may have cover this in a previous vidio but I was wondering if you have ever done a full patterning of a shell with ballistic gel, I am curious if the center of the pattern penatrates more? I've always believed rightly or wrongly that if your shot placement is accurate ie. The bird is in the middle of the pattern your range is further. Interested on your thoughts Regards John

Hey Joel what’s your favorite choke with your SX4?

Joel, we shoot more game than most countries per day in the U.K. Game cartridges used to be 1290 fps average and the pattern was so good, since then velocities and recoil has been climbing up to 1600 fps plus and now blown patterns and recoil are terrible!

I follow a simple recipe. More denser pellets delivered on target at reasonable speeds(1200-1350fps) is what works for me. More smaller hits on target will almost always outperform one or two hits from larger pellets. Its like a finger poke vs a fully opened slap to the face. I want wings broken, legs broken, neck broken, skull perforrated, and holes everywhere in between.

We run BB in our 12’s and BBB and T’s in 10 gauge. Probably not ideal but seems to eliminate a lot of variables for us and we have a lot less cripples.

Yea to any testing that has consistency

Years ago, I did some testing with broadheads for bow hunting. The same principle applied as with the bigger shot and smaller shot. Bigger broadheads did not penetrate a 1/2" piece of Masonite siding I used, while a smaller and even lighter one did.

Well done.

You made an interesting comment I held onto about the size of the pellet and penetration. I have been an upland bird hunter for many more years than I have been a duck hunter. For decades I have been killing pheasant (bout the size of a mallard in my opinion) with 20 gauge 2 3/4" 1 oz #6 shells. Now I know steel is light and looses it's velocity faster than lead. Everyone I hunt with told me I needed to shoot the largest shot possible to kill ducks with. I was not lethal with #4 steel out of two different 20 gauge shotguns. I patterned #4 and #2 side by side, and found the bigger the shot the worse the pattern. Recently I started shooting Boss 3" #5 1 1/8oz shells. They produce the best pattern out of all "waterfowl" shells I currently own. I have used them this season, and found lethality to be very good. I am now wondering if I could step down to my favorite #6 shot out of a Bismuth 1 1/8oz shell, and gain better patterning and keep lethality high. 🤔 Great presentation as always.

Use the old military standard of half inch Pine board if it penetrates that it's lethal on a human if it sleeps on a human it'll kill a duck

@surving duck season. I want to say thanks man for all the information and videos. I got my first mallard nov20th in Arkansas.

I’ve referred your channel to all my hunting buddies, I’ve recently been shooting a pro-20 air shotgun for ducks and yes sir it can flatten geese at 40 yards using bismuth. With a muzzle velocity of only 800 fps the guys I’ve hunted with are stunned when they see what it can do. Your videos have been extremely helpful and informative! Ps I am that person in the blind who patterned and tested ie your other video

GUARANTEE it's Tom Roster's table...

Where is all this data you have generated? I would love to see all the pattern and penetration data to do my own analyses.

I have the KPY program on my computer and love it. Great Program!! Even accounts for what elevation you are shooting at

Love all the info. Thank you for deep diving into this. I am curious to know the numbers when comparing a 1400fps to a 1700fps load. It seems to me that 100fps difference will yield similar results but what about a load that has 300fps difference 🤔 Again great videos!!

Great video

Life was bad…but then we got part 7 of the shotgunning series

Hi Surviving Duck Season, I have watched all 7 parts, and I want to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! That was a lot of great information, I am mostly big game hunter, but you make me thinking about spending more time with my shotgun hunting ducks and geese. I hunt mostly snow and Canada geese with my benelli supernova(28inch) 12ga using benelli's ic choke (4inch long), for short distance I shoot 3in steel shot #2 and for long distance 3.5in federal flight control BBB steel mixed with some fancy looking black color BBB. And believe you or not, I killed several times snow geese and canada geese at around 100 yards, I can explain you how now the distance if you want , I have to admit that now all of them were clean shots I would love to see at least one similar video about geese rounds especially 3.5inch flight control. And you mentioned that you want less recoil , me too, I am wondering if benelli comfortec stock is actually helping with recoil, because when I shoot 3.5s it still kicks. And if it does work , what reduces recoil better comfortec or gas operating system or better having both? Thank you for your content, have a great day?

Nice vid i would like to see lead bb compared to steel bb lets see how the old days compare to the fast steel of today if ya want throw in bismuth and tungsten to compare lets settle all the debates.Compare them all in speed ,down range energy and penetration.We'll get to see whats the best or what was the best....

Full choke #6s are the only load I shoot all we get here is woodies and ringers and I can regularly take ringers to 40 yards

Actually you missed one key point , I believe & I've seen a lot of duck hunters that don't know how to shoot. They just can't hit birds. At one time I was one of these hunters. When I finally learned how to shoot my kill ratio went way up .

Another solid video in this series but iv been waiting on more shot string videos. I feel like you only covered the tip of the iceberg with that one video and left us hanging. We wanna know more haha.

Question for the bird hunters I’ve always wondered but never asked. Do you ever find birdshot in your meat? Like after the fact…have you ever bitten into a piece of duck and gotten a tooth full of steel? You see all these pellets flying and I can’t help but wonder if one ever slips by when you’re dressing the bird (or whatever the proper term is for preparing them).

I just purchased a 935 I'd love to see a comparison on patterns with the 10 gauge bore vs normal guns. Or the lethality. Is a 10 gauge or 10 gauge bore more lethal? I'm talking big mallards or geese but to each his own.

Great video! Love your content! My take on this whole discussion is, if you can afford your preferred ammo and also kill what you aim at, why switch ammo? I've used the same setup for the past 10 years with no issues. But, my ammo isn't made anymore so I will need to switch after I use these last few boxes.

So what's the next video. I think you were doing right with the gel comparison to the lethality table. Do that! T.R. is probably intimidated by your work. I've been to his house. There were a scary number of pictures on his wall of himself. And that tells me something. Also, fyi. He doesn't like tss. Maybe he's right, maybe wrong. But he don't like it. Keep up the good work. Drop the next one before season is over please.

Definitely use the gel and compare a known lethal load Thank you

Excessive Speed (above 1350-1400fps) causes more pattern problems than it kills ducks. I think the ammo manufactures know that selling people super fast loads and all the hype will mean that they will shoot 5 to 10 times more shells for each bird killed so they make more money. I’m a competitive skeet shooter and discovered long ago that too much speed blows patterns with .410 loads. I’ve never tried a BOSS shell because of availability but I would guarantee they know the same thing. 1350 fps is the sweet spot when it comes to consistent patterns for almost every gun out there

Um I'm curious. I watch competitive shooting quite a bit and it seems to me that the majority use a higher f.p.s round.

Video idea: shoot different load sizes, material, and distances at dead, domestic ducks that are similar in size to wild ones. Then, do an “autopsy” to see how they penetrate or “autopsy” wild ducks after an actual hunt. Penetration is the big question.

all well and good but i can buy steel 20 gauge # 2 shot for 22.00 a box. and bismuth # 2 for 62 dollars a box. so if im only shooting 40 yards why shoot bismuth or tss. thats 40 more dollars for fuel. at 5 bucks a gallon.

Physics is not so simple Kenetic energy doesn’t matter once objects come in contact. Kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2 but when an object comes in contact with another object there are various collision types that dictate the characteristics of the impact. Inelastic, perfectly inelastic, and elastic collisions. If you want to actually know the math you need both speed and mass for penetration. And in this collision type of shooting a bird would take very complicated 3 dimensional calculus/ differential equations to adjust for friction of an individual pellet going through the animal. You also have to know what happens to the material of the shot upon impact. ( I am a mechanical Engineering student.) however when uou shoot ballistic gel, that is going to be stronger than any bird material. That being said If I can one shot kill. Decoying swan with 3” 4s in steel I’m not worried about its effectiveness, and other nontoxic shot-shells are not worth 50-80 a box. Especially when I’m shooting decoying birds.

The main use of ballistics gel is to have a consistent medium to compare one projectile to another. This is particularly important if you have expanding projectiles like handgun hollow points. I think there probably is a penetration depth in gel that will indicate this penetrates far enough to an average lethal potential. I think we should try to find something that works most of the time and be prepared to shoot again to finish the job if we get a bird that bucks the averages and is not cleanly killed with the first shot. It would be an enormous undertaking to get good data for figuring this out though. I have a question to pose for you though, why is it that goldeneyes seem to be so hard to kill cleanly? I have shot several over the years and they seem to take hits like a goose despite being much smaller.

I use JBM Balistics

Great info 👍🦆

Your first picture of shot traveling has "Winchester Black Cloud #2 12 ga". Didn't you mean Federal Black Cloud?

Excellent video

As a general rule of thumb, do you prefer more pellets in a smaller shot size or less pellets with more energy/penetration per pellet? (Assuming both pellets are the same material)

Good stuff 👍👍🦆🦆

I am wondering what is the best choke for closer range shooting?

So, quick question combo shells. I/e heavy hammer and browning stacked etc. Gimmick or legit? Does it make a difference in energy, or is it more the bismuth that's doing the work? Is it better to have all bismuth or all steel? Get where I'm going?

*My Ballistic Gel Formula:* A Gallon Milk Jug full of Water at 40, 50, & 60 yards, tells me if there's enough energy.

Watched this a second time, and there is another thing about speed that doesn' add up - the difference in lead. The TTS #8 is said to need about af foot shooter lead, because it retains more speed due to its density. Compared to what? Standand steel maybe? Even though the difference in speed at forty yards is relatively small between a 1300 fps and a 1700 fps load then the flying time of the two is very much in favour of the faster loads. Actually a crossing target at forty yards will move about a foot in the time difference between a load of #4s sent out at 1700 fps and 1300 fps respectively. The point here is that even though the speed drop is faster the faster the load starts then the faster a load starts the faster it covers any distance until it drops.

Back in the lead days,,, what shot size did people use for the Big canada’s ????? Lead 4 shot?

I try to purchase shells all close to the same speed do to leed. If you are shooting ultra lite 900fps loads vs 1290 fps field loads and 1400 fps magnum loads , there is a huge effect on leed. I challenge you to blindly take 25 shells each at different speeds and shoot a round of targets. T Time it takes the shot to get to the target is different and affects leed.

Question does the rain affect any aspect of shooting, perhaps you have covered this other aspect temperature outside and temperature of the barrel after multiple shots

Thank you! I have a question please. If Im using exact same 2 cartridges, same, same load, and same pellets material, 1 cartridge pellet size is number 9 and the other is number 7 let's say. Which pellets size travel faster at the muzzle and at the target? And which pellets size travel further in distance??

Winchester Black Cloud? 1:45

I have great patterns with my reloads. I test my steel loads at 35 and 40 yards. Yet I can hit a goose at 25 yards standing on the ground, and it will fly off, and hit one at 35 yards in flight with the same load and it will drop like a rock.

is there a study showing the pressure it will take for the different sized shot. To Lethally penetrated a duck or goose. Thank you so much for all this effort

yep, Speed Sells. Payload Kills. There is no point in shooting 1 1/8 oz.steel loads at 1550 fps muzzle velocity when the slower 1 1/4 oz. load at 1425 fps is almost as fast at 40 yards and also contains more pellets, and patterns better.

so what are your thoughts on the blends knowing that speed of TSS outperforms it's steel counterpart? I'm mostly curious because I have a case of the Apex 3 steel/8 TSS blend? How would my shot string not be like 10 ft long based on your velocity readings? Thanks

The tried and tested #4 1 1/4 oz lead load is well accepted for leathality. Maybe you could make comparisons energy wise.

How do the Winchester Blind Side „bricks“ behave in flight?

After 35 years of shooting ducks here’s what I’ve come like. 28 inch barrel mod choke and bb load Works do me

I spend hours and hours testing. I own very large track of land and shoot rifles out to 1500 yards. Now I didn't say I was hitting small targets, but a 4 by eight foot piece of plywood 3/4 inch thick is more than enough if penetrated to kill. With shotguns and so many different size shot, and different types of shot it's very hard to figure out what will be tightly grouped, or to open, or a few yards to far and the angle of every bird to know the killing power of the load. Wind, rain, cold, hot, play with the pattern or velocity or powder burn rate.... So many things with shot guns, chokes, barrel length, how much does the action take of the load if automatic, cylinder if in perfect polished conditions or not, consistent loads and wads can all of a sudden have such a different out come without reason. Shot is it being distorted or is it not exactly the shot size of the last batch....... Could go on and on. Best we can do is find what works for our need by doing a bit of homework and knowing there is a good chance things won't be the same every time.

How much velocity do you lose by using a gas operated semi auto?