Impeccable timing Charlie, after spending the last couple of mornings reviewing your videos on CV's so I can adjust them for my first attempt at speed profiling on Train Controller I head to my train room with a brew and come across this gem. I'm blown away...yet again. Thanks mate! 🙂
@@ChadwickModelRailway Thats true enough Charlie but the way it is presented helps a lot, anyway I had a crack and it was awesome watching the locos do their thing, I just have to work on the deceleration a bit as the performance varies due to loco specs, all in good time but it was heaps of fun. Thanks Dean
@@ChadwickModelRailway @ 2.20 on the Video you were point with your finger on the TOUCH SCREEN and other things happened :) you corrected this and carried on - but the FINGER was in the way, so a Meat Skewer would be the POINTER
Thanks Charlie, yet again I've watched all the way through, not had the faintest notion what your talking about, but again found it very interesting and marvelled at the control you have and your quest for perfection. I really like the way you present your videos and the fact things don't always go perfectly and your not afraid to show the problem. Keep informing us uninformed and meanwhile I'll go back to my little analog system and maybe dream. Regards Eddy xx
Essentially, Charlie is telling his train control software how to model realistic speeds, including acceleration, deceleration and braking to à stop. It has to be done on a locomotive by locomotive basis because motors decoders etc. all have their own individual characteristics. The software profiles essentially store sets of values for various time over distance measurements at different motor settings so it can then apply them to generate realistic running speeds as well as acceleration and deceleration rates.
Charlie, perhaps in one of your future short videos you could explain what functions can be done using blocks that are beyond the commonly used signaling function. I’m thinking maybe speed changes or actions of loco #1 based on the location of loco #2 for example. A short video would not have time to explain the “how to” but just the “what’s possible”. Help us all fire up our imagination a bit. Regards, Rick
Once again an Excellent Video Keep this Short format along with the more in depth Video's shame it took you longer to make but it pays dividends to people like me on this sometimes steep learning curve,as you might remember i'm on my second rebuild in 4 years after taking your advice and following your suggestion's and commendation's . I would like to see a Short(ish) Video on how to wire various components up as like many yourself including know DCC isn't Just two wires maybe how to add Circuit Breakers,Block Detectors and Point feed's so they work together especially how you wire points so if you run into a point set the wrong way and you have the ability to set point without the Hand of God coming into move the Train before you can reset the Controller Its taken me a few Hours to rewire. Keep up the Great Work
Charlie I too am having issues with my 602 and a friend's 602 doesn't even work. When I first got it it was fine. Anyway I really liked what you demonstrated. Thank you for sharing, Chris
Brilliant thank you Charlie for making this! I asked this very question in a comment when you first mentioned the shorter videos so really appreciate the video. It always bemused me how you could make the train stop in a certain spot with each loco having different speeds, decelerating rates etc! Thank you!!
Cheers Charlie. Interesting stuff. I use iTrain but the loco settings and principles very similar. And just as fiddly to perfect! I invested in a USB sensor which can be placed more or less anywhere on a straight track (rather than using three blocks). It works pretty well and, as you, say you go off and get a coffee everytime you profile a loco as it takes 5-15 minutes. I have sometimes come back to find the loco at the other end of the layout as iTrain somethimes has a blip, but as long as the testing track is a loop or has buffer stops, no harm is done. And you can start iTrain re-profiling and re-do a set of speed-steps if necessary rather than have to re-do the full profile. All in all, not bad.
I don’t use train controller or any software similar but I did enjoy this video and I was actually able to follow what you were describing, thank you for all you do for the hobby . Jack
Wow that was a brilliant video for those in the know and for an amateur like me. Found in very interesting from a technical point of view having spent most of my life in electronics. Also it gave me an insight into what you professional model railway guys are up to! Charlie all your videos are interesting no matter what the content and especially the humorous parts..lol Sorry to put a burden on you but I can't wait for each fortnight for a new video..lol Well done
Well done Charlie. I don't use Train Controller but do spend a bit of time speed matching my engines. One of the first things I learned was the variability of like brands of decoders! Not to mention 2 identical locos needing different cv settings to get them going at the same speed? But that is the fun of it all. However, the most important thing I do is enter all my programming settings into a book, each page being dedicated to a loco. Importantly, the loco details such as make, model price etc are written in ink but any cv values are in pencil! This is a life safer and very handy to boot!
Fantastic video Charlie. From my layouts ouset about 10 years ago, I knew I'd be controlling it with Train Controller. But since Brexit, they've vastly increased the prices to UK modellers. When u asked why the response was simply because they didn't want to bother selling to us any more; the price is to put us off! That said, a very interesting video seeing that profiling in action makes me realise just what I need to do to create a bit of TC myself, where JIRA doesn't. Keep up the good work, these deep dives really are fascinating.
For those who DCC...fascinating For those who DC......equally fascinating. Despite being DC Charlie, I find these videos....fascinating!! It is always good to read and learn about all aspects of the hobby, even if it doesn't appeal or concern the reader. Excellent presentation as always. Cheers, Bob
Great video Charlie. I love TC but it does make my train life more complicated. I run my TC trains in non-automatic mode quite often, using my iphone as throttle, so I have decided to use decoder settings for speed matching and leave TC loco settings untouched apart from max speed - eg have been setting accel/decel on the esu decoders to 19 to give pleasing movements / sound correlations in self-drive mode. These decoder settings for CV 3 and CV 4 seems to work OK in autoruns as well, rather than setting the decoders to zero. TC feeds the loco an increasing / diminishing speed setting to simulate momentum, and the decoder has an imperceptable lag implementing this due the the decoder momentum settings, so they seem to work together and not be in conflict. Trying to change as few settings as possible - variables in decoders multiplied by variables in TC can quickly get the brain spinning, it can soak up much of the time available for the hobby. 😂 Been working with TC for 3 years, still seems like a long way to go. Some more studies on implementing TC on a layout would be great, in the manor of "This is how I want to run trains, this is how to make TC do it". Rudy's videos are great, and the manual is comprehensive - although like many software manuals it describes what the system can do rather than how it supports a layout operating concept /outcome. Perhaps define four typical operating concepts and define the TC setup for each, hobbyists can fine tune from there. Many of the TC tools are powerful but require combined usage which is not clear from documents eg Use of flagman to temporarily restrict block entry in other remote locations will prevent stalemates in non-typical track arrangements - took me a looong time to discover how to do this, obvious in hindsight as always. Trying to run multiple long trains in n scale, the physics does not scale so we face inevitable challenges - understanding ways for TC to help manage mechanical failures would be good - decoupling, derails, stalls/shorts at turnouts and dirty track spots etc. The schedules generally continue without mercy leading to a pileup somewhere as the first warning, so you have to stop everything and do lengthy forensics, reset train locations etc. Yes, perfect track and rolling stock is the answer, but I'm not sure I will ever get there with a complex layout and limited train room time.
NCE procab with BD20 block detectors, Tam Valley decoders for servo switch machines. In a couple of places have used Arduino ultrasonic detectors as overhead stop sensors. Frog power is switched through a mix of Tam Valley frog juicers and Arduino relays (the relays are much cheaper than frog juicers). It's amazing how much electronic gear sits below a yard ladder...
Unfortunately I think the answer to manage the mechanical fails during autoruns, may be that all the rolling stock needs to have resistor wheelsets so that a broken train shows blocks as still occupied and prevents launch of other trains leading to collisions. Been wanting to avoid that solution, as most of my cars have been fitted with good-running micro-trains plastic wheelsets and couplers, a previous and expensive upgrade program prior to the introduction of TC. With 20 trains X 25 cars X 4 axles each, that will be a big investment of time and coin. 🙃 Hoping for a work-around before taking on that one...
Fascinating stuff! It strikes me quite forcibly that the individual loco motor profiling (which is essentially what TC is doing here) is actually very similar to what the engine management system in a modern car does - i.e. it adjusts the inputs and operational parameters and measures the engine performance at various times and speeds - though it does that as a continual thing - not a one off. I imagine that if you profile your Hymek Motor again in year's time (assuming normal usage) the stats you get will have changed due to the wear state of the motor and the drive train. Whether many modellers would want to spend time reprofiling their locos annually, is an open question - but the results you got speak for themselves - perfect speed control (automated if selected) adds an awful lot of realism - esp as compared to the abrupt stop starts you see on many layouts. Thanks Charlie!
Charlie, Wow, thank you for a mid blowing swift. I have been thinking about Train Controller, or JRMI, or one of them. You have certainly opened my old eyes to some interesting points to consider. Thank you for giving us a swift education on this subject. Cheers, and stay safe, Michael
If you're in the UK, You may find TC too expensive. Gold was over £1000 last time I checked, JIRA is less friendly but free, and improving all the time.
@@roundel52 Thank you for the response. I am in Australia, so probably a bit different in the pricing. Currently price in Australia is USD700, about 1,100 Aussie. Certainly something to seriously think about. Michael
First I would watch as many of Charlie's Video's on Train Automation ,Block Detection and wiring as for my Two Pennies worth have a look at iTrain its between Train Controller and JMRI and ask advice before spending any money Good Luck
@@chrislockerby1411 thank you. I am a long time viewer of Charlie, and love his work. I totally agree about doing a lot of reseach before spending any money. Cheers,
And I'm doing this with a chronometer, a calculator and lots of fiddling ! I'm a steamer myself, and I have to deal (for the UK, different for my German and Italian models) with fitted and unfitted trains, and different speeds for local and express trains. DCC is useful here for be because it solves a frequent issue on UK OO models : overspeeding. Anyway, thanks for the nice job done ! An automated speed calibration is something I will look at surely !
Fantastic stuff Charlie! I know it ended up a chore, but it really was interesting. Brilliant for anyone that literally just wants to play trains as opposed to those that want to play at train driver with full on (gonna use the ‘P’ word!) prototypical running 😄 I am certainly trying to keep an open mind about using DCC as I am unlikely to get to use it in he short term, but this has given me a whole new dimension to think about in terms of realistic speed control 😎 Cheers 👍🍻🍀
Thanks Charlie. I use RocRail but similar concepts. Speed profiling might take some time but it surely is more smart than having to enter individual CV values in a speed table!😮
Hi Charlie Way above my head but always fascinated by new technology. New swift videos great idea. Where do you ever find the time? Great entertainment and informative even if A bit complex for a baby boomer. Thanks Howard
I had the same issue when the DT602 was connected. When the remote goes into battery saver mode it caused the engine to reverse in the middle of the center block.
I subsequently discovered that the locos being controlled by TC, must be deselected from the controller. Tc appears to reference the controller, and if the speed is set to zero, TC stops the loco. Regards Charlie.
Thanks Charlie. Interesting, informative and well presented as always. I’m using ITrain and use a Railspeed from LSdigital for speed profiling as an alternative to the track section. This uses a short infrared sensor. Quicker for diesels but it does not always like the variable shape of a steam locomotive body. Generally it works well and does save time. I’m using a Roco Z21 but have a Digitrax 602 plugged in to it. I do get one or two issues and so will unplug this to see if they resolve. I will let you know.
Hi Charlie. A few comments from my experience with TC. Not saying these are right, just find it works for me. I leave CV2 start voltage set for lowest number usually between 1 and 3 depending on decoder. I use the “threshold speed” in train controller as you did to set the min speed that TC will use. Altering CV2 affects the sound of the locos and especially with steam locos the chuff rate will alter. You can then go to other cvs to alter chuff rates but it can all get a bit of a faff! It also means I can get a nice smooth start from the locos when driven manually rather than a sudden jerk of a start. As you say, cv 2 and 3 should be set to 0 (I usually use 1) for the actual profiling but I usually add some values back in afterwards. I do this to take the edge off what I feel is the rather sudden acceleration and deceleration in TC. Also re the momentum settings in the set up page, this should not affect the speed profiling at all as TC will not use these values during the profiling. I usually play around with the settings for loco weight, power and momentum to get nice smooth slow automatic acceleration but again, these can be set at any time and do not affect the profiling speeds. Re problems with the DT602 throttles, I did have some interface problems with the previous DT502s. I found I had to go to options menus settings on the controller and “disable expanded slots” . No idea why it worked but it solved the problem . Thanks for the video. Not an awful lot about using TC on RU-vid. Hugh
Many thanks Hugh for such a useful and in-depth comment. I shall check out your TC inputs and see if my trains have more stability. As you mentioned, it’s the initial acceleration that can be somewhat harsh. Stay tuned mate, and do keep in touch through my email address chadwickmodelrailway@gmail.com. Regards, Charlie
Hello Charlie, another informative video, but a bit over my head, though I have been doing something similar, When ever I add a new Southern emu to my layout, I first adjust the CV values CV2, CV3, and CV4 so that the new unit has similar running characteristics when coupled to the other emu’s on my layout. Nothing worse than seeing one emu wheels spinning when two emu’s are coupled together. Regards, Barry from NZ.
Charlie, cheers for this, I have an NCE system, but like running trains at proper speeds, so I did the calculations ie timing trains over a fixed distance (scale distance) then changing the CVs bit by bit.... I don't have a huge fleet, but boy did it take some time... so the train controller process, looked simple in comparison. thanks `Charlie informative and fun as usual, see you at Ali Paly?
Yes, indeed. The recommend approach for using the USB speed gate is to set the max speed first by trial and error by running the loco past the speed gate and upping or lowering the CV until acmatch with the published prototype speed is scheived. Once that is set, i let iTrain calculate the speed-steps and scale speed for each step. if the max. speed for the loco appeas to be "wrong/too fast" for the layout area/scene, I simple put speed restrictions on the specific block using iTrain to make it more look realistic.
Hi Charlie, I would have loved to incorporate TC to my layout, Sadly more expense though. Enjoying watching yours come together, Very exciting. Reg Mark.
Hi Charlie, definitely way to advanced for me but I still enjoyed it anyway 👍 Just wondering, as part of your 'Swift' series. Is it possible to have motorised points and just some simple levers or switches to operate them remotely without using computers/ programs etc 🤔 As always keep up your brilliant channel and thank you for all the inspiration. Kind regards Russ
I’m using ITrain but the set up is similar, however I set CV6 mid speed to around 1/3 of maximum speed to create a speed curve that allows finer control at lower speed steps
Thanks Charlie for a good start on the swift series. I wonder if your version/flavour has the same as my Gold where it can run a timed session through the test set up to get the top speed accurate. It allows you to tweak 13:22 the cv to get the speed more accurate. My problem was trying to find all the data on the locomotive including top speed! How about a swift on getting the correct weight into wagons and coaches to help with reliable running?
I use the same DT602 controller but use iTrain rather than train controller and have found the exact same issue. A train would be running during the speed profile test then would randomly get an error on iTrain saying unexpected direction change which is because the DT602 has decided to take over the control. It's fine if the loco address is not selected on the controller. Or just simply unplugging it solves the problem of the systems fighting each other over control. Interesting video to see that Train controller works very similar to iTrain.
Cheers Robert I Suffer with the same Problem Using iTrain and a DT602 Speed Profiling starts ok running back and forth then it just decides to keep running in one direction luckily my track sections are incorporated into a loop i'll try again with the DT602 unplugged
Charlie,, love your videos,, I only have a shunting lauout I'm building for grandson, its about 10 foot x 3, , its dc obviously, but I'm intrigued by the Hornby announcement of the HM 7000 DCC setup,, cheap I know but what are youtr thoughts please ?
Great informational video Charlie I’ve been thinking quite a bit about this sort of thing (ie Train controller) but I have to admit an awful lot of what you where saying (although precise and interesting) was unfortunately over my head - I think I’m just not smart enough to get into this aspect of our hobby but still , a great video, thank you 👍
Interesting video, Charlie, but as someone whose layout is still imaginationary, I'd appreciate more of an overview of speed profiling and what it brings to the hobby.
Thanks Charlie. Another great video, thank you. I'm definitely not at the stage of introducing Train Controller but a very informative video. I'm looking to keep things relatively low tech using my NCE Power cab. So just wondering if you might consider doing a Chadwick Swift on DCC Speed Matching to allow double heading etc? Apologies if you have already covered this in one of your fabulous CV setting videos previously. Cheers. Trevor
Actually Trevor, it’s covered by this video. It’s by matching the speeds of your locos and adjusting the CVs mentioned that you end up speed matching. Regards, Charlie
Interesting, Charlie. Once you’ve done the profiling, how closely do they agree? If you run two locos at (say) one foot apart, but the same speed, do they keep to the same distance apart? I ask because the royal train (like some others) has a loco at each end, and an error in the calibration will increase the risk of detailing the intervening coaches. Many thanks, Tom
Hi Charlie. One thing to note is that none of these options are available on Train Controller Bronze. So you have to spend the BIG dollars to get this to work (and this software is expensive)
Hi Charlie, that is a very sophisticated program you made it easy to follow though, well done!! Can the firmware be updated on that controller, should that be the source of the problem? With that speed profile I think the man on the viaduct will have time to note all the numbers down😅😅 Great video Charlie!! Good luck from Spain!!
Hi Charlie. Thank you for your demonstration of speed profiling. I was wondering if the maximum speed would also be affected by how clean the the track or the wheels were during contact with the electric current? Equally, if the same locomotive was tested say three times, it may be different? This could determine a more accurate speed for a given locomotive or EMU. For a mainline train, such as the Intercity One Two Five, or a 462 Main Line Steam Locomotive, the maximum speed could be greater than 60 MPH, so the scale speed would need to reflect this. This implies that the software and needs to be very sensitive to allow for variations shown on the graph.
An interesting point Alan. Fundamentally, I input the maximum speed which I want the loco to travel on my railway. If I were to put it on and unfitted freight train, I can make changes to the train properties itself. Regards
So basically if you want fun with a train set run DC or if you want to get all technical and require/or have a degree in computer science then run DCC 😀
Hi Charlie. I have TrainController Silver (cheapskate) and have also knelt at the altar of Digitrax with the DT602 handset. Is it only with the speed profile that these two guys don't get along?
@@ChadwickModelRailway You're a good man, Charlie "Brown", but a difficult man to pin down. I visited the Festival of Railway Modelling at Alexandra Palace today (Sunday) with the hope of bumping into you just to say hello in person. I usually prefer to go to exhibitions on a Saturday whereas I believe you prefer the calmer Sundays. But it was just not to be - c'est la vie!
Charlie, that is a very good video. I do use Train Controller and Digitrax and do have both of those handsets. I've tried unsuccessfully a couple of times to do the speed profiling. I've seen Rudi's videos which are good, but the problem is that he doesn't show it going wrong often enough. Now I've seen the length of track you are using - which isn't so long - it gives me the idea to set up a separate speed profiling track to avoid any points or slopes which clog up my layout. Have you tried it with your HST (or Pullman) which, if I remember correctly, is powered only at one end? I presume when going in a backwards direction the offset is not the one inch you use for the Hymek, but several feet. Any idea how it works if the end with the unpowered car picks up power for lighting, sound etc.? Cheers and thanks Charles
I’m so pleased that you found it. Interesting Charles. With my HST I never run it backwards. However, my Pullman has two power cars, which provides nothing but headaches. Regards, Charlie
hi charlie it,s me again do you have more than more than one islation block in the lenth off the blocks i have the same problems with digitrax train controler gold dose seem to like it i have tried it and have problems with it ok.
The best videos seem to, sometimes, require the most work from the videographer. And, the amount of detail available in train automation continues to astound.
Hi Chris, assuming you’re working on current detection, could you time it from when the Pickup wheels first enter, to win the block turns pink. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, Yep using current detection, it varies a little, but about 2 second. Here is some other info for new dummies like me to Train Controller & DigiTrax. 1. If the pickups are on front and rear bogies of the Loco, & you stop a train in a block "Waiting Time” and over run a little so the front bogies are in the next block, you will sit there for ever because TC thinks there is something in the next block and will not allow the Loco to move. You can go into the Schedule Rules and tick the Enter Occupied Blocks, but that is the same for all blocks in the schedule, tantamount to disaster. 2. With the 2 Second delay if you are entering a block at say 50mph you will lose say 12inches of your measured length of track. So 36 measured inches becomes only 24 inches for TC to do anything. 3. So small lengths of track say 12inches are unless, unless you are entering at a crawl speed. All very logical, now I have done it all. But if you’re new to it all, like me, my observations might save someone some time. TOMREIP
An excellent comment Chris. I have found that short blocks should be avoided whenever possible. Also speed profiling is absolutely essential. Regards, Charlie
Sorry Charlie please ignore my post old fingers don’t suit touch screens. I will start again Very interesting and informative video. Not for me at my age I have used analog for 48 years can’t change now. My 40 year old H+M walk about will have to suffice.
