Mage the Ascension & the Awakening have by far my favorite magic system. It has just the right blend of minimal mechanics with relatively open themes. I think what I love the most about it is the underlying worldbuilding behind how magic works to begin with. The metanarrative blends very well with the mechanics, especially when spells go wrong with paradox.
Great video and insights. Interesting take on rethinking some spells like Gate, especially for narrative game requirements. I think one of the harder challenges, at least for people coming from D&D, is how Fate Core & Fate Accelerated don't have characters advance on the same zero-to-hero progression that D&D and similar systems use where magic users at high levels can wield massive, even legendary amounts of magical power. Sure, it could be done through milestones, updating concepts/aspects, and stunts, but it would be much more difficult to convey the sort of mechanical differences between 'lower level' type characters compared to 'higher level' ones. I used quotes there since Fate is obviously not D&D (or similar systems) and it's not fair to try and compare them one-for-one.
The Dresden Files RPG (based on FATE) magic system is really interesting. It takes a tonne of preparation to get your head around it, but once you do, it's extremely satisfying.
I have to admit, I never would have thought of using a character's Trouble as the permission for their spellcasting. Nice. I would disagree with a few things here, though. Fog banks or whatever can be an aspect, but a spell that can charm or paralyze should definitely not be an aspect. To (effectively) gain control of another character to this degree should require taking them out. And you are also leaving the question of what to roll. Lore? Will? A custom skill? That puts a lot of power into one skill, which is why I actually like the idea of just rolling normal skills. Hitting someone with a fireball? Shoot. Trying to charm them? Rapport. Reading their mind? Empathy. Casting an extremely powerful spell? It's a ritual (Challenge).
And the inverse "If I can just use rope to do what magic can, why waste part of my character on that magic?" Magic and balance have always been a fickle pairing
Because the Aspect slots used to give your character magical abilities could otherwise be used on other class-like aspects like "Black belt" or "Infantry Veteran" or "Combat Medic". It's really only limited by your character concept and how much you want to lean into it. You can even do generic Aspects that would have a smaller effect but a wider range of use such as "Jack of all trades" or "Dumb Luck".
Your immediate concern could also be "Why role play a fantastic character at all?" It's all just in the head of the player. Magic users have another role in the game/narrative/story than non-magic users. A combat veteran or thief with a rope might also be able to overwhelm or bind an enemy, like a mage with a sleep spell. But they don't have narrative power while fighting an enemy mage in a contest of wisdom and magical prowess. And the mage can't win prize money in a sword fight in the arena like the veteran can. Or trick another thief in the inn while playing cards. All aspects have their flavor. The player chooses that flavor. There is no "more powerful" class or character, each character is exactly as powerful as the GM and the group decides. That's the beauty of it.
Your two Fate Core episodes are a “masterpiece”! Seriously…. please, please more of these. I’ve been running Fate games for my group for about three years and while we understand a lot, there are still aspects (pardon the pun) of the game that I feel we are failing to unlock. We love your insight!
@@DungeonMasterpiece It's criminal. Clearly your thoughts are organized as you guide us along the journey of improving our gamerunning and narrative skills. You waste none of the viewer's time and are a strong, clear communicator of complex, interesting ideas. I love your style. Thanks for making videos.
Personally, I think if there's nothing magic can do that mundane actions can't, magic stops feeling magical. From what I remember of Savage Worlds, it strikes a better balance with a very broad set of "template" powers that you basically design to fit your character. This allows a high degree of customization and creative freedom, but still lets magic do stuff you can't accomplish other ways.
THAT are some great tips! But ... yeah the gms always have buts... :D :D What about mana, casting points, or however I would name it...? Would magic not be too powerfull, if a spellcaster could cast every round something?
In Dresden Files (A FATE-based system) a failed spell (and some successful ones) have backlash. Attempt something too big and it could, sometimes literally, blow up in your face! Risk vs reward needs to be added rather than a system of resource management that you get with spell slots or mana.
Each action like "overcome" or "create aspect" can create boosts and aspects for both sides of the conflict. If you fail your magic-skill roll when casting fireball, the GM could give you a scene-aspect named "forgot the fireball spell" or "mana exhausted", which can be compelled and used by enemies. This is no different than when the Warrior uses a physical attack. If magic users are more powerful in the setting than non-magic users, then that is just a fact. If not, then that is a fact. There could also be a world/setting-aspect named "MAGIC makes insane" or "MAGIC Drains the soul", which always can and will be evoked when your character uses magic. Aspects are the resource system. If you want really "rare" spell usage, then I would couple spells to either once-per-scene stunts, stunts for fate points, or spells needing extras like ingredients, so any of these Fate core elements can replace "mana" or spell slots.
I love Fate, but the problem is that I haven't run into ANY players who understand how it is supposed to work, and play it correctly. It is just too different from rules-based systems. Facing, for instance: I've run into multiple people who want to get behind the bad guy, for instance. If we are using minis, they want to just move their mini behind the NPC. I've told them time after time that being behind someone is an ASPECT. It has nothing to do with where your miniature is. The just don't get it.
I like the Ars Magica magic much more because of how it ties spellcasting to the setting and is an interesting system. To me FATE seems to replace making interesting decisions with an abstract measure of narritive appropriateness. In DnD the success of some action depends on its tactical usefulness and some light simulation of the game world. Maybe casting a web could tie up a whole host of goblins rushing through a pass, but might not do too much to a dragon that can fly, burn the webs, or just muscle through. FATE on the other hand would just have me tag aspects, which don't really "do" anything other than allow for everyone to attempt to justify an abstract bonus via improv storytelling. That its entirely abstract means theres no room for engaging with the game tactically or understanding the setting.
As a matter of fact, aspects DO do something even when they are not invoked. This is because aspects are “true”, a line that the fate rules state quite often. For example, if you webbed an opponent up and gave them the “webbed up” aspect, that would be true, and would entail whatever else it would mean to be “webbed up”. this may mean an inability to move or use items/weapons, and may require an overcome roll to bypass. Now that the goblins are webbed up, you may even propose that the goblins concede, or at the very least you can move along to other parts of the fight. The does seem to be room for tactics, in my experience at least.
I'm a big fan of DCC RPG take on spells. You are tapping into forces of cosmic chaos and the results can kill, maim, mutate or drive you into madness. Spell casters have to think twice about casting as the results can be dire. Those that live long enough are forever changed by the power that flows through them. Excellent video!
Interestingly the way that fate dice can go either negative or positive pretty easily does kind of lean towards some really bad things happening or really good things.
Longtime players of Mage: The Ascension will be familiar with the challenges and joys of freeform spellcasting. Player characters in that game select various skill levels (read: aspect scores in Fate) that apply to various spheres of magic, like forces or time (read: names of aspects in Fate). Players then named an effect that was suitable to their sphere and sphere score and rolled for success. Historically, many players loved this freedom, but some players and gamemasters found the system too “loose” and wanted more “crunch” and clarity. In the end, though, ALL games require gamemasters and players to negotiate on the effects of spells, including 5E. Thanks for making this video, which has me intrigued at the possibility of playing Fate.
Great video! I've used quite a few different takes on magic in FATE, but for my games I've settled on one that's quite bit more complex than most. For folks who also want something more complex, the Dresden Files RPG is based on FATE and has a very extensive spellcasting system. I've been using it for years, with minor tweaks for balance (RAW, spellcasters become overpowered very quickly), for everything from the urban fantasy it's meant for to a superheroes game to cyberpunk. It works pretty well with the base FATE system, though it does complicate things and move play a bit away from the very RP focused play of standard FATE.
Check out my comment above for many different of FATE magic options with varying amounts of crunch. Some are full game worlds that include magic, others are generic add-ons, but all are easily hacked for your own game.
What is the effect that the player wishes their magic user to produce? In Fate, player characters can ALWAYS succeed at what they are doing, it is just a question of what consequences the player is willing for their characters to endure to do it.
Great video! I think you could also leverage the skills as part of spellcasting. You could have a skill for each school of magic. That would help prevent wizards from being overpowered too because focusing on improving magic would hold an opportunity cost for other skills.
You absolutely could do that! I am careful of this though because someone could develop a very versatile school of magic, and pour all their skill advancements into this skill. Then they have one skill they do everything with.
I was waiting on more Fate content, awesome stuff… I’ve tried playing fate with my DnD group and I feel like one of their biggest reservations was the lack of a magic system… we played the fate world Arecibo which has a magic/alien/psychic powers “system” but I wasn’t super fond of it…
Check out my comment above for many different of FATE magic options with varying amounts of crunch. Some are full game worlds that include magic, others are generic add-ons, but all are easily hacked for your own game.
For some reason, the list I posted with lots of magic & Fate links keeps disappearing. I just reposted the list as a comment--lemme know if you don't see it.
@@KiMo7PDC Dang. You're right. RU-vid dropped my comment...again. I'll post another reply below this one with the same info and let's see if it shows. If not, I might have to try posting several chunks in case there is a character limit or it doesn't like some/all of the links.
Yes YES! More Fate! Some of my favorite magic in RPG’s is in Fate. Specifically Dresden Files Fate. It offers so much freedom to make your own spell, push the spell past limits at the expense of your character, and tying magic thematically to your character. I also love that it is varied on two axis: how powerful the spell can be and how much fine control you can extent over the spell. These are determined by two skills your wizard has. Magic is free form, with bonuses if you stick closer to things your wizard would be good at. If you find yourself doing a certain effect a lot (vines to grab people, a charm, a glamour, etc) you can codify it into a spell your wizard learns and get even more bonuses at the expense of not being able to alter the effects the same way.
Check out my comment above for many different of FATE magic options with varying amounts of crunch. Some are full game worlds that include magic, others are generic add-ons, but all are easily hacked for your own game.
Please, and I cannot say this enough, continue making videoes on non-D&D games. Love your content and it's useful either way (even for me that only plays PbtA games nowadays)
I dislike system difficulty being tied to natural difficulty, I think the difficulty should match what magic "should" be able to do in the fantasy setting rather than how the same effects could be produced without magic (if at all...). My own favorite magic system is Ars Magica. Very, very far far from freeform, but still allows the wizard to design essentially any effect, with lots of guidane on how to set the specific difficulty, and some interesting limitations.
I'm a fan of the spellcasting mechanics in The Dresden Files rpg, but the actual writing is IN-FUCKING-SCRUTIBLE. still working on rewriting house rules for it.....
I don't think that one can equate the efforts of casting a spell to the efforts of achieving the same effect by mundane means. Many times over, the cost of magic lies in the time and effort it takes for learning of the spell, not in the casting itself.
I like your simple system and use a similar one for fate. I am also using a little logarithmic scale of size and weight to help determine what the scale system converts to when used in a real world situation. Nothing complex and easy to use but it helps my number crunching players understand what is needed to create their crazy effects.
I can totally see that. It is kind of like learning a short hand. But once you get it down, it just blends into the background. Honestly the hardest thing for me was learning how aspects were interacted with.
@@03dashk64 Yeah, aspects can be quite a hurdle, especially when there might be many different types of aspects in play beyond just the PC's individual aspects. Check out my comment above for many different of FATE magic options. While most require some sort of aspect to help define a character as a magical caster, some rely more on stunts & the Lore skill to get the job done. All that I linked above should be easily hacked for your own game in you want to cherry pick the best ideas.
you've already said it in a different video, but I've found FATE to be a really well designed game, with an awful instruction manual. my friends and I have come from 5e and the official rulebook does an AWFUL job of explaining how the game actually works. I'm running what I thought was a basic grimdark fantasy setting, and I'm still figuring a lot out on my own. Thanks for videos like these, I hope you keep making them!
I actually feel that aspects don't work for a lot of spell effects. Idk if FATE Core has this, but the version of FATE that dresden files uses, a lot of spell effects are a "Block". you create this semi-permanent effect that prevents certain actions from being taken unless it is overcome. For your example of paralysis, for example, I think the intent from the player is clearly to stop the enemy from acting, not just to give them a penalty to taking actions. So a block would be more appropriate than an aspect. If the enemy fails to overcome the block, they are prevent from acting at all, and the block remains until it expires (in dreden files you spend the shifts of your roll to either increase the block strength or extends its duration) or an action is dedicated to trying to remove the block.
Great video! I'm a big fan of Fate core and free-form magic. Would love to see more fate core specific videos, but also like your non-specific content as well.
More examples, please! And please as some concrete numbers, too, as balancing is the one thing my group and I struggle with the most. We have tried various approaches, but even after years we have trouble gauging an effect. Either a magic skill ends up so versatile that the character can (and will) solve every problem with magic, or magic is so specific and restricted that it is virtually useless. As a consequence, instead of inventing new and interesting methods, our characters fall back to the same small set of trusted spells again and again. And that is boring.
*Barbarians of Lemuria* has similar issues with its loosely defined magic system. It makes unique, original effects possible, as fits the sword-and-sorcery genre, but players are given little guidance beyond some scant examples. I think this is a fitting way to define it, but it does take some creative effort to make it work. D&D has all that stuff predefined for us.
Both as a GM and player its difficult for me to ever want to go back to a regular "pick spells "system. I use a homebrew spell system in Cypher htat mimics Fate , with players gaining skills in elements and types of cast and the creativity being on them. The spellcasters love it, relugating how they cast and prep up to them as role players.
I use a system of tiredness: the magnitude of the spell define the target number to the test and the player have to roll a defend test too against the same target number. If fail he needs to mitigate the damage with mental stress or consequences.
This is the approach I took. I have an Arcana stress track. If the player fails a roll, he can fill a box of Arcana to allow the spell to go off with a minor setback. But I also allow them to transfer to the next Stress Track. So if he is out of Arcana and still doesn't want to take a Consequence, I will allow a box of Mental stress to indicate that now he is sacrificing his own mind. Then this could continue to Physical stress as he uses his own life force to fuel his magic. In my game, casting magic can be deadly for the target as well as the caster.
I'd probably say most GMs would ignore physics and just look at how it affects gameplay. Because if we are true physics, then a simple 5 pound weight telekinesis can be ignored if its a brick, but what if that 5 pounds of force is focused to a needlepoint. Huge difference. I remember the TV show Heroes as the first time I ever saw/read TK being used to cut instead of just mind punches. That simple 5 pounds of force into say the shape of a stilleto and then jabbed into an enemy eye? Instant Death. I suppose a GM would argue accuracy at that point, but then a player can argue he is forming a monomolecular TK blade thats 10 foot wide. A clever player can abuse physics+magic to stomp things into the ground easily, so likely most GMs are simply going to look at the possible results and how drastic the effect is to make up a difficulty, or perhaps just say everyone has some innate magic resistance to help increase difficulty. Magic is OP when it is left purely to creative minds.
The dicotomy of a suit and tie in a RPG discussion really had me in a state of confusion. Your presentation was/is great and I think you could apply the key elements to OSR D&D as well. Thank you for sharing.
