I have commented about quite a few similar suggestions so I think I'll leave this post here in case your great mind is thinking alike! 1) Golf Ball Dimples / Shark-Skin or otherwise textured coatings for reduction of air drag: Golf balls work by increasing viscous drag but decreasing pressure drag by more (put very simply here, many good vids out there). Since my tops don't experience pressure drag, adding texture would only increase viscous drag. So far, I've found that a perfectly polished surface is best, however it is certainly an area for innovation so do leave other ideas! 2) Ruby/Sapphire jewel tips/bases: Tungsten carbide, like I use, is harder! And easier to get in a spiked form which benefits more from lubrication. 3) Polycrystaline Diamond/Cubic Boron Nitride tips/bases: These are harder, but very abrasive. If only used for the tip, it would cause drilling. If only used for the base, it would rapidly blunten the tip. If used for both ... I'll admit I haven't tried yet but I suspect both would occur. 4) Uranium/Osmium/Platinum etc flywheel: (Apart from uranium) I would LOVE this, however I am not a millionaire so this is completely out of my price range. Pure tungsten would be the densest viable option (almost 20g/cm^3) however I have struggled to machine it in the past. Hence, Mk.22 used a 90-10 alloy (16.75 g/cm^3) which is softer.
@EuroWarsOrg I actually put something similar on for the full spin video! I just took it off the top in this video to make it more pretty but I am looking into aerodynamic ways of making the spin more visible :)
@@jjb0nks It should spin on some kind of point, either conical, spherical etc. A bearing like that would stop the top from being able to topple, hence it is no longer a spinning top.
@@hiper_tops Does the base have to be static? The base could be another spinning element (with a means to retract when it loses momentum, a centrifugal clutch mechanism or something). That way tip friction could be reduced. The base element could have a shell around the top's doughnut (to shield it from drag). The thinking is to have something like multistage rocket, but with like mechanical parts acting as boundary layer separators to reduce the delta V to the surroundings.
9 месяцев назад
Just found this High-performance project. The stability at slow speeds is insane. Well done!
I don’t have any suggestions for the top itself but I’d love to see a video delving more into the maths and theory behind your designs. It seems like you did a lot of it to get your formulas for an optimal setup and is honestly the most impressive thing to me from this whole video
Hi I was initially going to have quite a bit more info like this in this video, however when editing, I realised the video would probably suffer (people would click off!). This is because I'm not familiar with editing maths and physics into something enjoyable to watch - however I will try and take inspiration from other youtubers and add more info next time, perhaps a separate video as there is so much.
@@hiper_topsI get what you mean. This is the first video of yours I watched but I’ve since gone back to look at your earlier vids and liked them too because of your style. A separate theory video would be good to have especially for someone like me because as soon as I saw this I wanted to know the thinking behind it and how I could maybe attempt the challenge as well (maybe you don’t want to share your record setting secrets though that’d be understandable).
@@H4PPYx337 Thanks for watching them! I would gladly share the thinking that goes into my tops, but perhaps not the specific formula(s) I have used .. yet! The most challenging part is modelling the air drag as a heads up :)
High performance! For aerodynamics it would be really cool to see smoke stream testing on this. I think the geometry of the base may actually be pretty significant. For the top itself, maybe a blade around the center of the top better direct the top and bottom air flows as they come together? On the friction side of things it may be worth going back to a dual material or hollow design. It would complicate your analysis there, but it may be worth it to bring mass down without affecting inertia too much
It's a cool idea but unfortunately not! Golf ball dimples help by increasing viscous (skin friction) drag but decreasing pressure drag (by more!). Since spinning tops don't experience pressure drag and only viscous drag, dimples would be counter productive. You may find this video interesting: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-g_LTJTaOxCs.html&ab_channel=BilletSPIN Note the best top has internal dimples, however the change in airflow in this region is unlikely to be the helping factor; but rather light-weighting to reduce tip friction.
from one engineer to another, very well done sir, that is one High-Performance spinning top! Seriously though thats an incredible feat to achieve, those calculations hurt my head just thinking about it lol
This may be kind of cheesing it, but thinking along the lines of free fall reducing the impact gravity has on friction... Have some enclosed apparatus that drops the whole thing with a consistent speed (maybe on a pulley or rail system)
Definitely cheating haha but I like the out of the box thinking! You would need constant acceleration, not speed. Would be quite difficult especially for such a long time
Damn... this is such a good channel, the subject is interesting the vibes are perfect and the high performance passion make it so good... Continue like that :D
I’d only suggest doing some metal bluing in a stripe pattern so the viewer can better visualize it in motion. At points I didn’t know if it was moving or not.
Awesome spinner, top performance! Have you considered a gemstone contact point in both surfaces to reduce friction further? Also we need the full length video of its performance!
I think there is an answer haha if you keep enough variables constant (altitude for air pressure, lack of wind or shroud aid, no external support etc) then it comes down to the limits of materials (high and low densities, hardness and tribology) and human spinning skill! I don’t think 2 hours is possible but that’s a soft limit based on my experience :)
Surely the ultimate design would be a hollow cylinder (think of something like a drinks can) made from something dense like tungsten or uranium, filled with helium, with a stationary shaft inside (running in a tube to keep the helium in) that's supported on magnetic bearings. A bit more radical than just playing around with the shape for years.
Great little video, love to see a passion project. Wonder if instead of knurling the top piece, you could dimple it, like a golf ball, the concavity of the dimples *may* provide a little less drag than the knurling, I imagine it would be tricky to balance though. Vacuum chamber test next? :p
Hey thanks for the interest :) I am currently trademarking my brand etc and working towards producing a small number of tops similar to Mk.22! I don't have an ETA right now, especially because I have a lot of uni work to do XD However my goal is to have something(s) to auction off over summer. In the future, I aspire to manufacture smaller, simpler, perhaps single-twirl versions which may be easier to manufacture and sell at scale :) I'll post any updates on this channel and my instagram: hiper_spinning_tops
For the near future, to be transparent, the price will be high. A very small number of tops will be made and they will all be unique and hand-crafted. I would like to produce something further in the future which would be more accessible :)
Not quite sure what the rules are, but would a lowfriction bearing between the tip and the body be beneficial? It would reduce the tip speed for lower friction, but would also add another point of friction. If the relation between rotational speed and friction is squared it should be beneficial. Right?
I know it's not the point of the project, but I'd LOVE to see what this thing could do if spun up mechanically to 10k RPM in a vacuum chamber. Assuming it doesn't turn into a grenade at those speeds, of course.
Talk about high performance!! I hope we someday get to see other engineering projects from you too! This is an awesome journey so far though, do you think you'll try to keep taking it further? was one hour your goal?
Not currently, it is wide and heavy for stability and shaped mainly for aesthetics. Lift is something I've explored in some other comments of this video and we conclude it is likely not a feasible method for improvement. It would create too much drag for too little decrease in tip friction.
Having watched a channel called Wristwatch Revival a decent amount recently, I have learned that to reduce the friction of (mechanical) watches they use rubies, and you do mention why it wouldn't help, but they also Lubricate them, do you lubricate your interface surface? If not, perhaps that might be a way to improve the already high-performance even more? It might even let you use mismatched materials? (Although I am not sure if it's a singly ruby, or 2 rubies with oil in-between them in some cases?)
have you considered using a ruby bearing for the tip and a concave ruby surface for the plate? The coefficient of friction for ruby is very low compared to most metal on metal surface.
You could start a crowd funding campaign to raise the $$$ to do one in platinum. It's denser and cheaper (usually) than gold. I'd totally chip in $10 to see it done.
If air friction is at its highest at the start I would love to see how much longer you could go or if there was any real tangible extension to the spin time if you put it in a vacuum chamber
I made a top designed specifically for the vacuum conditions, there is some explanation in the video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Xah0ONSoq1k.html
Why is the point on the top and not the base, if you had a concave insert inside the top then it could have the same contact with the top itself for holding, but you would reduce the mass and further lower the cg, it would also not require sharpening and so with no removal mechanism you could possibly further reduce the mass. Although I'm not the guy that's made 22 of them, I'm just an idiot on the web lol. I should also say it's an excellent peace of art and engineering
I hate to play the devils advocate her, but i think in competitions you must use a glass or ceramic surface they provide as a 'table'. And you're spinning top can only spin with the help of your accessory mount as the point of contact is higher than the 'table'. Making it unable to compete and therefore take any world records. I hope i'm wrong though, it's clearly a high-preformance spinning top. Maybe someone in the 'game' can comment and clarify
Ive been interested in spinning things since I saw a guy spin a 2mm ball bearing at 1.5 Million rpms using electro magnets and high frequency mosfets on youtube in like 2007. Have you considered and non hand powered spinning records? It looks like your research is specific to hand speeds but would they scale to something spun up by a compressed air turbine? I had a scary air top that was said to hit 100k rpm with 100psi air.
This might be a dumb idea that you've already tried but old mechanical watches used ruby jewels to minimise friction and wear, that might help drop the tip friction lower if you want to progress further? IDK, you're the engineer! Such a cool series, thankyou!
@@phiro4305 The contact point is definitely an area for innovation. I (and others) have found that hardness certainly isn't the only factor - cubic boron nitride and polycrystalline diamond for example are highly abrasive. A carbide spiked tip spinning on either can become blunt over the course of a single spin, causing imbalance, more friction and worse performance. If we swapped the base and tip materials, now the spinning top would drill into the base, get stuck in the hole causing vibrations and losses. Also, yes, coeficient of friction when dry (for ball tips) or oiled (for spike/micro-ball tips) is important! The typical solution is to use materials of similar, high hardness for the tip and base. HSS on WCarbide is good for longevity but for a single spin, WCarbide on WCarbide is the best. Interestingly, perhaps due to Mk.22's incredible spin time, I have found that over a single spin WCarbide on WCarbide can cause drilling and vibrations - you will see this in the full spin video. In my testing it has seemed quite consistent that after about 45-50 minutes, some vibrations occur (not due to imbalance but getting stuck in a hole as described above). If you have any suggestions, do give them (regardless of if you are an engineer or not! I am still a student) :) @xzorby for example suggested a DLC coating on the tip which I am now looking into!
Okay! haha :) The thing is this product would be quite expensive (very small supply, a lot of skilled manual labour and rare materials) and I want to deliver something amazing! There's a lot of work to do ... but of course I will keep everyone updated😄
You can always offer the poor man's 10 min top :) But, I want one spinning in my office for 30minutes at a time so I can pomodoro between spins @@hiper_tops
why are there so many comments saying "High Performance! xxxx"? it looks really suspect, like hes paying for views or offering "prizes" to people for commenting, i.e. buying views.
@@hiper_tops ahh that clears it up. thanks for making that clear, i was a bit sketched off from the comments. i have removed my dislike though, seeing as there is no shady shit going on.
High performance, seeing this channel for the first time, no bs just straight graphs, beautiful machining and spinning shots and lovely music. Instant sub
@@tebla2074 Good point. I'm curious how much it would affect the time. It would quantify roughly how much drag there is compared to friction. Could give insight onto further improvements.
@@rebeccarivers4797 You are right, this data would be very useful. And @tebla2074 is right about how it can be achieved. I just need to get access to a suitable vacuum chamber, however I suspect making one myself may be easier as what I'm looking for is quite an unusual shape. I'll see what I can do!
This is amazing! To me this is the ultimate in the "unlimited" class of tops, essentially doing anything you want with the geometry. However, I feel a little bit of the essence of the classic top is lost by allowing a recessed tip and elevated stand--as that essentially removes the part that makes most tops fall over: the precession from CG being above the tip, and the effect of the sides of the top contacting the ground if your spin technique isn't perfect. Therefore as a follow on I think it would be cool to see your optimization of the design under a "legacy" class where it has to run on a flat surface (no recessed tip, or cupped holder). I wonder how the design would change.. because you still would want to get the CG as low as possible, but if too low, the sides would contact the ground too easily. So it's a different optimization. Anyway, as an engineer this is where my mind goes. Good work.
This is a good idea, I would love to develop a top optimised for single spin, spinning on a flat surface etc. I should be able to use a lot of the formulas etc I've found so far, but it would be an interesting new set of design challenges!
High-Performance! Love this - I'd definitely buy one of these, so I'm looking forward to when they are ready for sale. Edit: scratch the below, I'm not the first person to ask this! Also, I have question: I'm curious, would a dimpled pattern, akin to a golf ball, make for a more efficient grip? In the case of the golf ball, this helps to keep the flow of air more tightly bound to the ball, so there's a smaller pocket of low pressure behind it, but in the case of a rotating object, I don't know if the dimples would be of any use, or if it would make drag worse due to the turbulence. I suppose you may have already considered this, given the number of iterations. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it.
I don’t know whether I am more impressed with the math and science of this, or the art. This is some high-performance work right here. Seriously, love this to bits.
Amazing! I imagine getting a top to spin this long teaches you things that are SUPER transferrable to modern engineering. Like, every problem you had to solve probably also exists in electric motors, car engines, etc
High-Performance! Congrats on hitting 1 hour, if you haven't already, you should see if you can get an official world record with Guinness. I'm not sure how that works personally, but if it interests you, then I'm sure you can figure it out. Good luck with that, and/or with your future tops.
@@prdoyle Yes a Hand done no machine run top should have own category as the 27 hour top has one of the magnet flywheel engines inside so machine can go for a very long time. Also, a big spinning item that uses earth rotation and is still spinning was once considered a top before Guinness World Records changed it into a time category.
All good points, regarding the wideness, I believe 70mm is optimal for multi twirl tops like these as any more and air drag would be too much and any less and tip drag would be too much. I am looking into base and tip materials!
That is one High-performance top! Hopefully next time you sharpen the tip, the CoG is lowered to be under 0.1mm above the contact point, would be mesmerising.
Just fascinating! I have had a desire to make a long spin top for so long, yet I didn’t know of your channel. perhaps when my workshop is finished I can make something that will spin for 10min! It’s funny about your pinned comment. My first thought was golf ball dimples then micro dimples (but seeing your comment these woukd be useless!) and then finally uranium! I’ve actually wanted some for so long. I have searched how to buy uranium so many times I’m probably on a watchlist, apparently older aircraft counterweights used to be uranium.
Is using a lubricant allowed? For example a crankshaft bearing (which sometime don’t even use a bearing at all…just engine oil) they survice a countless violent rotation when the car moving around
I've achieved 45 min with a magnetic suspension tip, top. Took 5 min to make and hours of experimentation with various weight distribution and more importantly magnetic attraction being the most minimal needed. I don't know if using an inverted top counts tho?
I believe 1hour 30min may be around the soft limit for spinning tops of this type. I am hopeful that 1hour 10min will be broken by a design similar to Mk.22 :)
