Ssangsudo - Not a Fantasy Weapon! Plus 3 ways to draw a giant sword [Response to  

He did!

Even in tight spaces, like street alleys and underdeck galleys.

@@revolutionaryfoxinist2377 you're welcome to drop in anytime in the first four weeks of each term

@@JustaBug What do you mean by term? Like, school/university terms?

Nevermind, I just checked your website and understand what you mean by term. I'll check out travel routes, I'm definitely intrigued

Did you notice the look on Caras face, when she held that sword…(Skalls video)? 😁

when she says size doesn't matter

I think this is just an issue of focusing on one particular style of sword. Skallagrim is clearly an European style practioner so his skill base would bias him towards the way western swords are built and their contruction. He would subconsciously apply western sword bias on the media he reviews and the masamune is a good example of that.

tbf sephiroth himself is a almost 2m in height so bug (or any average asian heigh guy) with ssangsudo is still a good analogy.

Masamune as it exists in the games is completely impractical to real humans, and splitting hairs on real world Nodachi drawing techniques ultimately just distracts from the point.

​@@SethAbercromby I don't know that it necessarily is or that they necessarily do. While they aren't _100%_ analogous, real-world long tachi do serve the purpose of pointing out that, while the Masamune is somewhat exaggerated, it's not overly so and not to the point of unbelievability. Of the myriad fantasy weapons out there, the Masamune is among the most "could (have) exist(ed) in the real world." I think a significant part of the reason why people are focusing on Skallagrim's comments about sheathing and unsheathing such a weapon is that said comments are just the clearest demonstration of both his (self-admitted) ignorance and, more critically, how that ignorance can lead to straight up bad commentary. (He talks about the Masamune, nodachi, and katana interchangeably, and uses the nodachi as one would a katana, things he would know to distinguish if the weapons were, say, a longsword, a zweihander, and Aragorn's Anduril. I get it's a casual video with casual commentary, but even so.) Plus that behind-the-head draw IS slick as hell. 😄

@@muchluck7981 Personally I feel he just forgot that you can apply other sword techniques to a longer blade, see: Zweihänder. He treated it like you would use it like a normal length blade, and not whirl it around like a Zweihänder

Thanks!

@@theghosthero6173 yeah I've seen some Cambodian examples. If you can bring big sword with you, why not?

oh man, those cambodian swords are beautiful

Saw it too. Was amazing to watch.

@@ShuajoX Yeah, it's almost certainly derived from that. But improved because now it's fixed on the sword and it aids in stiffening

You messed up a lot of the dynasties and common terms. The large two handed sword was used since the Han dynasty in various forms. The names Changdao is just "two handed saber" while Zhanmadao is "horse cutting saber". There's also names like Miaodao and Dandao. Regardless, the most well recorded use was in the Ming Dynasty as an answer to Nodachi/Odachi and Nagamaki wielders of the Woku forces. The longer swords were meant to duel against them or were adopted due to the effectiveness of those two handed swords. Generally they were all big 6+ ft in length, but nothing exact. Likely they were fit to the wielder. Doubled edge jians also existed since the Han dynasty in various capacities with museum examples surviving today. But the horse cutting name is a translation misinterpretation. There's no real recorded use of it in a battlefield capacity, but rather a testament to its ability to cut through a horse. They appear to mostly be used as execution swords and fit the same profiles as their European counterparts. Likewise Zhanmadao also refers to halberds in the Ming dynasty. Translations are tricky.

@@Ranstone korean montante. Or my favourite is to call it the Korean zweihander, because the English translation of both is two handed sword

@@JustaBug I'd say its the Korean/Japanese kriegmesser/swiss saber, but I'm just being pedantic. In the end, large war swords were used in very similar ways/circumstances. Korean Montonte is a good description

@RedRobin2010 My understanding was allways that the messer was a much shorter weapon. More similar in length to longswords or katanas. Atleast whenever I have seen someone use a messer in a video it had dimensions like that.

​​@@sportenapfeltorten2095The Langes Messer (literally translated as long knife) does indeed refer to a shorter sword - usually around 80-90cm total - similar to an arming sword. They were typically straight or slightly curved, single edged, though often with the false edge clipped and/or sharpened near the tip. However they are distinct from the Kreigsmesser (literally translated as war knife), which was a larger two handed sword, usually around 110-130cm total - similar to a longsword or katana. They were also single edged; again often with a sharpened false edge near the tip, but unlike the Langes Messer, they were almost always curved.

@@akkeriworkshop Thank you for the explanation, and the translation! I am German :D I was just confused because RedRobin2010 was saying that the ssangsudo was a "korean kriegsmesser" and that didnt make sense to me because as you described Langmesser but also Kriegsmesser where definitly not the european size-equivalent to the ssangsoudo. Unless I am still not understanding something. :)

@@lucamonticelli267 honestly, that's just not true. I've used montante that are 210cm that have some flex but aren't the wobbly noodle mess that skall showed. You start thicker with distal taper, it's how most ssangsudo are made so that they have less mass at the tip to make it wobble. I think it's likely that skalls fantasy one was made from an even thickness blank which is just wobble city

Thanks for watching my video! You're always welcome to shoot me an email at Justabug.yt@outlook.com and I will do my best to reply

@@JustaBug Thank you!

We are simple me. Big sword. Big thumbs up. It doesn't specifically say to drop the sheath. But the form follows on straight into two handed cuts so my interpretation is you drop the sheath. Shooting it off would probably be preferable to being caught stuck trying to draw, though I've not directly seen any manuals advocate for it. Would be keen to know if you have seen any

@@JustaBugI think Shogo has a vid where his kenjutsu sensei demonstrates a similar thing, but the opposite - shooting the odachi out of the saya. They say it’s a traditional method of their school. Edit: found it ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hFVL0RzmbbI.htmlsi=SGx030EjjeNTAeAb. More theatrical version of the draw form from Dan Dao Fa Xuan.

@@mulli032 I was going to try the Seki Sensei method with my nodachi when his vid first came out but thought nah!, I want to keep all my fingers 🙂

@@gazza8234 why you need that long blade collar!

Thanks!

Thanks! Glad to share. I can casually hold my sword in one hand and its longer than I am tall. I'm also not particularly strong for a non superhuman

Thanks for subscribing! There's probably a fair bit in my older videos that I don't stand by anymore as Ive learnt more or grown more as a martial artist, but its still good to look back and see what I thought at the time of publishing those older vids. Hope you like them!

Glad to hear someone else is training in the ssangsudo. The main historic reference is the ssangsudo manual in muyedobotongji and it has the specs listed which comes out to a 1.8m sword. If you want to discuss historic swordsmanship more and sources you can always shoot me questions via email or instagram though I probably reply quicker to email

@@JustaBug thanks a lot! It's been in my shop list since forever. Appreciate the help and the passion for the art. Just you know there are some practitioners that really love korean style fencing in Spain!

Thanks! Yeah, it's quite the whopper

Korean Historical _European_ Martial Arts>? HKMA I guess lol

@@raphlvlogs271 they probably could have. Technique wise its not impossible. Though I don't know any documented examples of that. There's too few surviving ssangsudo thanks to the Japanese occupation in Korea destroying most of them. It would have been cool to see how many had reprofiled tips or repair signs

No, the crossbowmans dao is a shorter chang dao in cheng zongyous manual. The miaodao is a republican era creation. The ssangsudo is an exceptionally long chang dao that general qi jiguang made a system for based of Japanese odachi. The zhan ma dao is a much earlier sword of large proportions but notably different design. These are all different swords with different historical origins

@@JustaBug Thank you for your reply! I think I just got mixed up with different writers from china in the 10 minutes I had earlier. Apologies in advance if I seem like I am disparaging you, but I am not. But thanks to this response video, I guess I now have a channel to watch/educate myself regarding Korean "HEMA" (HKMA? JJD?), yay! Now regards to Skallagrim's video, the first replica sword from medievaldepot between 0:00~1:47 mark is 78" total (57" blade) or 198 cm. It is likely not made to be functional but rather to make it look like the prop, which is why it is so flimsy (and I believe he is commenting that that version was flimsy). In the video, skall and a different shop owner later talk about how Sephiroth's sword is 7 foot (213 cm). I think a functional sword might be much stiffer and as a result maybe heavier. The Ssangsudo you have in your possession is about 175 cm, which at 6:08, you demonstrated that you were able to max out your arms to draw it out with the scabbard hitting the floor. I am not very convinced that it is possible if it was an additional 20-30 cm (i.e. two or more clenched fists) I would agree though at 2:16 that swinging the Ssangsudo with only air resisting it is not really a problem, but regarding unwieldiness of a 190cm weapon, as someone who has watched Skall's content off and on since maybe 2012, I would like to believe Skall is talking about a combination of stopping the momentum (which both of you would agree not to do, but is something i'd imagine done a lot in FF7 and maybe needing to stop one's swing to trust and parry as needed?), long usage of the weapon (i.e. one hour? a duration longer than single sparring match), objects in the room get in the way of swinging, that people use the tip of the blade to leverage against you and if you attempted to use the sword according to HEMA techniques. Thanks for your time and sharing this video, and I apologize for such a long text. i've took a glance at the channel and seen some things that interest me, and will take a look when I have the time!

@@albinoasesino absolutely agree the first sephiroth sword skall showed was a prop. With regards to drawing over the head that's recorded for use with a 1.8m sword, I agree I might struggle with a 2.1m sword. Though that's an emergency draw and there were 2.1m ssangsudo used, almost always you just had another person take the sheathe. With regards to unwieldiness, the techniques for a big sword are all about conservation of momentum, the sword doesn't stop unless it hits something. And when it does, you're not fighting the sword to stop it, you just swing it back round the other way. Giant swords like this are fantastic to use, even for long periods of time. You wouldn't be using this anywhere you have things you don't want to hit. It's a great area denial weapon. There are forms with the overgrip to shorten the reach when you need it for those situations but it's not really the weapons main use. I like skalls content. I just think this time he and the fire and steel owner got too caught up in what's impractical and jumped the gun and wrote off the possibility of a real sword with those proportions

Thanks namazu! Still posting infrequently

@@JustaBug Keep them coming! Always appreciate your post!

From the way he talks about dropping the sheath I’d say they were carried in the hand.

I've not seen any documentation of a sword longer than 145cm total length on the hip in any ming chinese or korean texts. Makes sense too, I think that's the maximum without taking out your fellow soldiers' knees

The curve and length would probably make that difficult; and as the video mentions, scabbards are not easy to replace if damaged or lost, especially for a blade that long...

this is literally a Japanese nodachi, copied to the T, even the handle wrapping is Japanese. I am not a weeb by any means, but would you believe me if I took a Katana and call it a traditional Mexican sword?

Thanks!

You are very welcome

Thanks! Yeah, the echo wasn't great but I filmed it before my class so it was all we had. Not a sword you can use in your normal home so the usual filming places were out

Indeed

@@Ranstone we train in a scout hall and I think it's made higher so small kids can't enter the cleaning storeroom and eat the chemicals even if it's accidentally left unlocked

210cm ssangsudo are documented in the manual. The shorter handle would probably make it more difficult but I can't imagine it making it difficult to the point of needing superhuman strength, especially because most of how you use these swords is momentum conservation

If i remember correct, then he said, that binding would work against you, since the blade acts as a massive lever. Or generally, that binding and redirecting such a long blade would be easy for the opponent, because of leverage. And you would have the same problems with other great swords too, just not to that extent.

You're not fighting out of the bind with these swords. It was a pretty stupid comment, because yes, trying to bind would work against you. But it'd be like saying all polearms are useless because the opponent can grab the shaft. Weapons are used based on their inherent advantages and disadvantages and the systems of use of weapons differs based on what they can do. If someone tries to bind my ssangsudo in a full swing....well good luck. It'll blast through most guards and if it doesn't it's quicker just to cut round the other side than try to engage in winning a bind. It's what every greatsword manual advocates

most depictions the sword is the same size as sephiroth with some odd shots making it larger or twice his size. and hes estimated to be 6'1" - 6'4" 193-194 cm and the handles close to a nodachi's length rather then a katanas shorter one. based on it look's like 3 of his hands would fit on it. im 5'6"-5'7" (170-173cm) and I use a odachi with a 100cm blade but I modified it to have a 11 inch (27cm) katanas handle instead of the 22 inch(55 cm) one it came with and I don't find it any more challenging to control, so I don't see his sword being all that much harder to control with a 11 inch handle and dont think it would cause any issues with one like the 22inch handle my sword came with or something in between the 2

@@JustaBug Personally, with swords this large, that would be a lenght, where i would consider switching to a polearm or spear of the same lenght - same reach, less or identical weigh, but longer grip. I am 180cm, and would prefer swords, that are shoulder high, in my case 140cm or max 150 cm total lenght - above that i would take a spear with a sharpened blade, or a sword staff or naginata type of weapon.

There are ssangsudo in the manual mentioned being ~210cm that were used. 0.2 to 0.6 feet longer would make it more difficult, but honestly not to the point of needing superhuman strength. I think the limiting factor was collateral damage and carrying the giant things around that limited their size rather than the strength needed because we see some polearms with heavier heads than these entire swords

. < the point you > .

Sephiroth is about 6'1"-6'6" depending on your source. So a seven foot sword for someone of that height is not that crazy. I don't know this guy's height but that historical sword is approx 6" taller than him.

What's actually crazy is that the 6 foot sword was used at a time when the average height in Korea was around 5 feet. Imagine using a sword 120% of your height all day. Some even went up to 7 feet in length in the documents of swords that were used

210cm is only about 7 inches shorter than 7' 6". That's not so far off to put it into the realm of fantasy, especially given Sephiroth's height.

@@mugenGRTC yes, but qi jiguang got it from the wokou pirates. It's documented in Qi's changdao manual

@@JustaBug That's questionable, he did mention Japanese swords, but some of his comments are historical nonsense and were perhaps political in nature. For example, Japanese sword could not cut thru Chinese blades. Also the idea that the Changdao is just a copy of a Japanese sword ignores centuries of Chinese two-handed swords that existed in the empire- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-h8e8X2kcdEk.html

@@JustaBug "It is commonly suggested in contemporary Chinese martial circles that General Qi created his shuāngshǒudāo form and training methods from information he gather from captured “Japanese” pirates he was sent to fight. An examination of the historical record and the application of basic common sense shows this suggestion to have no merit. Even worse, it ignores, in typical Chinese partisan political fashion, that first of all, the vast majority of wōkòu (倭寇) pirates General Qi faced were more often than not, local Chinese. Period records state that as little as 10% of the pirates were foreigners with upper estimates being only 30%. Indeed, all Ming period records stressed the leading role played by native Chinese." Quoted from Ming Military Swordsmanship by S.M. Rodell

​@@mugenGRTCI was under the impression that long two handed Chinese swords existed for over a thousand years before the Changdao (since at least the Qin and Han era in the 200s BC), but the Changdao itself was a hybrid model partially infuenced by the Japanese nodachi because they made it curved (the previous two handed swords were all straight jians or straight daos).

@@Intranetusa There were certainly two-handed long sabers in China before the Ming period. The automatic assumption generally put forward that the Changdao was based on the Japanese nodachi is never also presented by primary source material. The basic idea is the pirates were Japanese so the obviously carried nodachi and that's where the Chinese got them. The problem with that suggestion is that period records show that the pirates at that time were not Japanese but the vast majority were Chinese. Period memorials to the throne reporting on the piracy clearly state this. The historical records shows the vast majority of wōkòu (倭寇) pirates General Qi faced were more often than not, local Chinese. Period records state that as little as 10% of the pirates were foreigners with upper estimates being only 30%. Indeed, all Ming period records stressed the leading role played by native Chinese.

@@setokaiba200x the kodachi literally translates to small sword. It's a shorter blade than a katana and handle usually of longer proportions than you would see on a waki blade. As for the use, I'm not an expert in Japanese swords, it's not my area of interest so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't think we have any manuals or historic records of their use. So we can't be sure. They were likely carried for self defence, and could possibly have been intended for hand and a half use, like we see on some korean swords with similar blade and handle length, but that's purely speculation. There's a youtuber called Nate the Aussie who is a good friend of mine who specialises in Japanese historical martial arts and he may know more. Hope that helps and sorry for the inconclusive answer

​@@JustaBugThank you very much! I'll check your friend's channel.