Starfleet: Military Overseer or Defense Partner? 

Admiral Ackbar would like a word...

Are you actually gauging dislike or is this a joke? Its hard to discern with your unique sense of humor

wait what?

@@Noone-jn3jp I’m not watching it at all. I’m giving people an option to click something since that’s what the masses want :p

PSA: there are extensions for your browser, at least for Chrome, to restore the dislike counter. Just do a search and you'll find it.

this is a great quote as it really gets to the heart of the matter.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't about dissolving their ability of self defense, but of rolling their military ti comply with starfleet standards of military regulations and technology. Remember, their militia was their only military force.

@@ericscommentaries704 Nobody's saying that it was to dissolve their anything, just that yes Starfleet is the Navy of the Federation. Each member "world" is free to be their own "coast guard"

@@SkylerLinux and the space coast guard doesn’t carry weapon capable of planetary destruction. You’re not gonna see an American Coast guard cutter carrying nuclear missiles. (Heck we don’t even see that on most military ships.) It makes sense that prolific defense forces would be limited in armament in peacetime. In wartime I would expect these restrictions to be suspended.

I said the same thing in my comment before I read yours.

The problem with that is Starfleet Security already does that and they are part of Starfleet itself, hence the name

the Coast Guard is a branch of military since 9/11 due to the creation of Homeland Security. there are plenty of countries that have funded their coast guard more than their own navy, making them a stronger force. many counties don't divide their resources as such though.

@@jamoecw The USCG gets bounced around. It use to be under the Department of Treasure and I think the DOT. In times of a DECLARED war they fall under the Department of the Navy. Many coasties lost their lives in the world wars.

@@madrabbit9007 yeah it was originally under the Department of the Treasury, then in 1967 it was put under the Department of Transportation. during this time the military was under the Pentagon and kept fully separate due to the constitutional requirement to not use the military for domestic affairs (the military cannot enforce law on american soil). with the creation of the Department of Homeland Security a bunch of things were thrown under the same umbrella, and 'the military' as was colloquially said, became far more nebulous, since technically all federal law enforcement falls under the Pentagon (including the TSA), and we have military operations that are not run through the Pentagon. for foreigners this isn't a big deal, as any armed force that furthers US interests abroad is military (like everyone else), but for Americans it is a big deal due to the separation of military and civilian law enforcement written into the Constitution. the US Coast Guard went outside its territorial waters to conduct rescue missions since 1915 when it was merged with the U.S. Life-Saving Service, but since it was not under military authority it was not considered a military force. now that it is under a military force it would be a tough argument to not say it is a military branch. that also means that technically they would not have to be rolled into the Navy in times of war anymore (they probably will be though).

A problem is maintaining this more advanced tech. If your type 9 phaser is gone you cant go to the next civilian ship yard to repair it, you most likely have to visit a starfleet ship yard and good luck getting a repair slot for a low priority ship.

I think it's best to look at it like NATO or I think the U.N Peacekeeping forces. You rely on the members to provide troops and material. In both cases there are much larger, wealthier nations like the US, who make up the backbone and provide much of the heavy lifting. While smaller members may only be able to provide expertise in something more specialized. I view Starfleet as essentially a Earth and human centric organization; that has the biggest, most expensive toys. The smaller members help as much as they are able. Starfleet was born along side the Federation. It's what more or less guarantees the integrity of Federation territory, and with it the Federation itself.

NARCS possibly?

Oh stop. The Federation is a federalized government that is democratically ELECTED. Only the nation-state is a interstellar, multi-species society. One of the primary roles of any national government is to police crime and threats to the democratic order, as well as provide national defense. You don’t have local polices forces rolling down the street with Apache helicopters and Abrams tanks. So what we see in Star Trek is how a healthy democracy works. The issue is that the US id no longer a healthy democracy . Akin to what you see in Star Wars with the Galactic Republic at the start of the Clone Wars. We are a dying democracy with a cynical population. Although Star Trek doesn’t really deal with the Federation’s internal politics (no conflict is boring), it operates as a healthy democracy. The government intervenes to resolve internal conflicts justly, and seeks to deal resolve/protect in the face of external conflicts and threats. What all this misses is that you are looking at an evolved society where there is no money, and energy is cheap an plentiful. The energy to run a single starship could pose cities for decades. So when there are no money or power to fight over, and everyone’s material needs are met? There is very little conflicts worth fighting over….and if you’ve risen to the challenge of mental illness? There goes most of the other causes of violent conflict.

@@kellygreenii America was never a Democracy. We were a Republic until we allowed Corporations into the government, then we turned Fascist.

@@Bluesonofman We are a Constitutional Federal Republic that used to function as a representative democracy until corporations leveraged people’s fear of sharing power with people of color into control of the government. We are not a fascist state (yet). But we are a corporate oligarchy. Just look at what is going on in the US Senate right now. Best government money can buy.

@@kellygreenii Democracy is when 51% kill 49% in the name of equality.

The reason why the United States was able to arm up so quickly in World War II was because it temporarily became a resource-based economy. It needed gold for electronics, so it borrowed it from the treasury. It needed metals, so it borrowed it. That significantly reduced the price. America had to pay people to build, but it just printed new money and used patriotism to get the people to trust and believe in the value of the dollar. It really worked. In the case of Starfleet, they have industrial class replicators. They are not limited by resources, but rather energy, which is clearly plentiful. They also didn't have America's problem of needing to pay their workers. Since replicators provide everything the average citizen could want they just work for free. The Federation also has the technical ability to create self-replicating mines. Voyager was able to build new warp-capable shuttlecraft from components replicated . I bet if Starfleet wanted to they could construct a giant ship building ship that just replicated ships all day. Granted, some parts couldn't be replicated, but the point stands.

@@Elliandr It's still a damend fast arm up given they've been shown up to and including in TNG era using dedicated shipyards rather than what amounts to city sized assembler factories shitting parts out in bulk. Admittedly that would be terrifying to see and amazing and actually well within star fleet's capabilities going off of what's been shown on screen. I also love your response and am glad for it.

@@Elliandr you are right. My Mom and Dad were young when the war started. His older brother went to England during the Lend-lease years. My Mom worked at Parker Brothers which produced war material. My Dad's other big brother went to D-day and Dad went to the Pacific theater when he turned 15. It was a "special dispensation" (he fudged his records). My Mom kept her ration card and a list of choices as souvenirs. She lived in special housing for 6 years. Then she met Dad at the parties to honor VE Day and VJ Day. His unit was #3 on the list to invade Tokyo. He remembered all his life the reports of 90% to 95% casualties from the first attack and the overwhelming relief when the Hiroshima bomb was detonated. They did two because the Nagasaki bomb did not bring the Emperor to the table. Or maybe Nagasaki came first. The point is he was writing his will then and his future seemed to reawaken when his invasion was called off. So were half a million other soldiers and sailors. Dad got 4 years of engineering college and a home loan from the G.I. Bill. The middle brother got the same. They had six and eight medals for heroism and for bravery. She was still driving her father's 1934 Hudson sedan in 1948 when she married Dad. She is 93 now and in good health.

1. It would make sense for the Federation to already have some formidable ships. I mean, they border Romulan territory. Romulas was hardly friends of the Federation before the Dominion War forced both powers to ally. Plus, you had the Borg threat. A single cube mopped the space floor with dozens of warships in mere seconds. The only thing that saved the Federation from complete and utter assimilation was Picard putting the cube on sleep mode. 2. The Cardassians were the Federation's weak neighbors. The Dominion was a powerful empire from the other side of the galaxy. They allied with the Cardassians thanks to one Cardassian's bizarre mix of competency and stupidity.

See that comes into a few odd problems st least for Starfleets "we're a socialist utopia with no resource limitations ever" schtick that Picard loves to throw out while kidnapping people from hundreds of years in the past to strawman. Sisco and his son were able to build a extremely unique, antiquated, and specifically resource intensive (if you even try to look at the science of it) solar sailor over the weekend in what was effectively their garage. Yes dad designed starships for a living at one point but having been involved with aircraft devs it takes more than one person for that and those skills don't always transfer particularly to unqiue ancient designs. And second is the Starfleet propaganda that they have unlimited resources, either starfleet is restricting resources that member states may access, or they are (somewhat rightfully i will not argue against their claim as the federal gov/military on this) using the lions share of these LIMITED resources for themselves. Either way it more or less shows that on the wider picture Starfleet and the Federation propaganda is just that, and that for the colonist and spacenoids Earth is oppressive....sooo, Seig Zeon!

There are Star Trek novels that show examples of planetary defence forces obtaining retired Starfleet vessels and there is at least one point (it was either in TNG or one of the movies) where some small planetary defence vessels were destroyed by an invader (I think it was a Borg cube).

Would explain all the old 23rd century ships we see during the Dominion war et

Except that in your example the difference in power is due to a difference in availability funding. It's difficult to match the federal government when a single missile on a jet costs a million dollars. The Federation supposedly exists without money, so assuming a purely resource based economy how do we explain the disparity?

@@Elliandr A good point, but keep in mind that "expense" doesn't always mean currency...it could mean resources. For whatever reason, despite the abject magic of the replicator, ores still need to be mined, to form the basis of things like hulls. That still costs manpower, transportation assets, and the most valuable commodity of all: time. Doing away with money doesn't make those issues cease to exist.

@@mikehendon7327 My guess is that it's less resource intensive to mine ores than conjure them. They can't replicate Latinum, nor can they replicate Dilithium, but everything else is doable. If it's resource cheaper to mine, and they can do so, why not? They also seem able to recycle an object via a replicator so they seem able to recover spent energy on a reverse operation meaning that all materials mined is a potential source of energy with which to produce other raw materials. In any case, just because they normally try to conserve energy doesn't mean they can't rush production. Let's say that, for sake of argument, mining resources is 100 times more efficient than replication. Unless your civilization has power to burn its going to want to conserve power and mine, especially since their power source - Dilithium - is non renewable, but when time is of the essence they would likely reduce their efficiency to build ships faster and focus mining efforts on the Dilithium. In that regard it would be a bit like in a civilization game where you could spend the money to rush production in time of War. Well, in real life money is essentially a unit of energy, so in the Star Trek universe energy is literally their money.

@@Elliandr Yep, thus the theorized "Energy Credit", that the very mention of used to throw Roddenberry into massive tantrums. My overall concept being: for whatever reason, most planets seem to prefer to spend whatever time, energy and resources they have, on infrastructure. Schools, roads, bridges, that kinda' thing. Oh, sure, the Andorians could probably replicate themselves a pile of ships!...but, who's going to pilot them, run the guns, and maintain them? A frigate is a pile of panels and bolts. A crew is something that takes a lot longer to make in an emergency, than most militias have, when a Borg cube floats up.

I want to know how you would classify all the states into ST races. Florida could be like Risa as well.

War with the cardassians, a fight they could win though

As a legit state, I suppose the UFP would have no right to block them from arming up. The down side would be that without some sort of support treaty with them, Cardasia could just stomp them out and be done with it.

@@LoreReloaded That is what is "suprising" about the whole Cardassian situation _pre wormhole [the Romulans were still isolationist as well]_ … why weren't the Cardassians just steamrolled? During the Boarder Wars the UFP should have been able to outmaneuver the slower Cardassian ships and concentrate forces. Then there's better tech, _better logistics,_ better training*, better plot armour. The entire Cardassian fleet should have been cut to shreds and then Cardassia Prime sieged. And the *huh?* issue. Why didn't the Klingons join in? They would have loved a good war against a foe that can put up a fight but isn't a risk of losing to - it helps internal stability of the Empire, and as well problem individuals can have glorious deaths _arranged for them_ in battle (the Klingons not having Oberths to do pruning with). And the Klingons would have inspired the Cardassians to surrender to the Federation, like with WW2 Germans running to surrender to the American and British, instead of the approaching Soviets. A alternate timeline where the Klingons joined in would have a much more stable Klingon Empire (no future civil war, maybe the Durass"s could be "lost in battle"?) and far better relations with the Federation, having recently been battlebrothers. _could that be the alternate timeline Tasha screwed up?_ A what if is at least warranted. [*Holodecks are amazing for training, they are a game changer.]

@@madrabbit9007 so would the ufp sign treaties with the Marquee and then support them and if so would the Cardasia join the Dominion sooner or we stopped out of existence so that they couldn't join the Dominion?

@@LoreReloaded would that make them run to the arms of the Dominion faster or would there not be enough of them left after the Klingon invasion for the Cardasia to sign with a Dominion?

And from the resource standpoint, Starfleet also mitigates the resource cost of their ships by having most of their starships be designed to fill multiple roles.

@@Janoha17 The problem with that is that the crew compliments for starfleet ships are MASSIVE because of this. Starfleet ships are often manned 400-700 crewmembers per ship. Meaning each ship is a small citiy, and requires the food/waste processing capabilities for each ship. Which is why Starfleet has such a hard time building up a large fleet presence and often times woefully outnumbered in MANY occasions in both TNG and DS9 era and even going into the Voyager era. The Voyager has constant issues maintaining supplies to support its crew compliment and wear on the ship's ability to repair and maintain themselves. And dont forget, Starfleet acadamy really limits how many people can attend star fleet a year (TNG making an especially big deal that Wesley couldnt make it into the acadamy because diversity quota's mattered more than the better candidate), so its really difficult to replenish crew losses from combat/away missions. Just ask the military how "cheap" their F-35 "multi-role" aircraft is and its logistics footprint. because of the demands of "multi-role" to be a dog fighter, CAS support, spy-craft and counter-EWAR, the F-35 can barely keep 50% of its fleet in operational capacity. Its such a boondoggle that the aircraft carriers designed to carry the F-35's had to have their flight decks replaced because they couldnt handle the temperatures of the VTOL engines and were melting and damaging the flight decks. And they are still dealing with helmet issues and oxygen control issues to stop the pilots from passing out.

I prefer this theory. I can understand restrictions on civilian but not member governments. Instead it makes more sense that say Earth may not see the need to beef up its defense when any enemy would have to pass through light years of federation space filled with starfleet ships and starfleet run defense platforms and space stations

I also agree with this particular take. But I'm more or less anti-starfleet. But particularly i look at starfleets restrictions and behavior towards their spacenoid population, and then when i see that i typically start agreeing with Zeon Zum Deikun (someone whose philosophy i find backwards and stupid) when it comes to Earth, and saying things like 'Seig Zeon' in response to the Federation's rather harsh and unnecessary restrictions and overbearing policies towards these people.

@@codyraugh6599 I think you're confusing Star Trek with Gundam. As a fan of both series, they're hardly comparable.

@@Idazmi7 actually I'm invoking gundam specifically because the EXTREMELY earth centric nature of Trek and how Trek almost exclusively screws over the colonies and any displayed laws concerning independent starships seem to exist solely to screw over and antagonize those who own or live on them. Honestly I'm absolutely shocked that there aren't more Maquis-like groups or outright rebellions considering the heavy handed and pig headed approach of even "the great diplomat" Picard. The golden age seemed to exist solely off the slaughter and death of spacenoids and colonists while the Federation sat back congratulating themselves for letting their people die and doing nothing about it.

@@codyraugh6599 Like I said, you are confusing Star Trek with Gundam. Even then, you are wrong about Gundam as well. Did you actually watch the 46 episode series, or the compilation movies that leave out 90% of the context? Zeon callously destroyed multiple space colonies, the Earth Federation never did. And in Star Trek, you can find zero examples of colony oppression by the Federation: only Cardassia oppressed the Maquis.

Very insightful.

That's not necessarily true, most ground combat power in the us is actually concentrated in the National Guard system. Most of the logistical system is concentrated in the Reserve programs.

To help clearify NORM! 'S point. The US National Guards are a psuedo-Narional force and not entirely State provided/trained, the State Militias, like that in 27 of the states soon to include Florida don't stand a chance, heck they barely have a chance against the civilian militias in their own states. Meanwhile the National Guard Forces are used to supplement the US standing military overseas and will often serve as the primary garrison force in active combat zones meaning they do 50 to 70% of the real legwork. The big exception to this is the Air National Guard and the United States Airforce where obviously the equipment is more limited in quantity and the emphasis is on the quality of the personel and equipment itself. And honestly garrison work is often something entirely overlooked by a lot of sci-fi, failing to the mistake of battleship flag planting. Assuming after a smallnsurface skirmish and a space battle that a planet jas been fully conquered, and fully on board giving whatever resources of value it has to it's conquerirs and then doing little to nothing to provide a thorough garrison or to root out any remaining resistance forces. And Ironically enough Trek makes this mistake a lot with the BIG exception being Bajor, or whatever episode of the week "we're helping rebels" plotline is happening.

Paramilitary would be a bit more accurate. A bit.

@@dhwwiiexpert nah

If I understand the lore right, the colonists knew Warp existed they just decided to do without it, so contacting them did not brake the Prime Directive

@@brianober7345 That would be close. The warp drive was invented in 2063 and the NG was from 2364 to 2370. So we'd be talking about ships launched immediately after warp drive was invented at best. So the can prime directive is satisfied if only the people had access to warp drive technology hundreds of years ago? Even if that's the case, how does the prime directive allow for compulsory enrollment? Or treaties that apply to all members of a species regardless of where they are in the galaxy? This just brings me back to thoughts of the Maquis, but worse, because we're talking about people 300 years removed who are denied autonomy. Shot were never federation citizens until the federation keaejeif their existence and are literally conquered by the superior military of Star fleet entirely on the basis of being human. This scenario is a bit like the Louisiana Purchase. In it the United States made a treaty with France to purchase territory that wasn't even theirs without regard for the people who lived there and later said the people who lived there aren't autonomous, they are now American, and must do what Americans say. Yes, it's exactly like that! When commander Data demonstrates his superior weaponry to force people to give up their world it was to help theny, truly, but they wouldn't need help if the federation didn't consider those people members of the federation. It was claimed that the treaty is all that kept them from being killed already, but in reality it was the treaty that gave their world away to begin with to a race of lawyers who never even considered including a clause for humans that weren't federation citizens. I don't know about you, but I think of the federation as dystopian rather than utopian and I hate the idea of a government saying that no matter how far you run a fire government can do whatever they want to you.

@@brianober7345 I found a better example. In season 7 episode 20 the Enterprise has to relocate a Native American colony that was established after their ancestors some 200 years prior left Earth to preserve their own cultural identity. In this matter they don't consider themselves to be federation citizens. They are an independent people. Regardless, the Federation treaty with the cardassians recognizes all humans as Federation citizens. Even Captain Picard recognized that this particular case was wrong. "Once again they are being asked to leave their homes because of a political decision of a distant government" - Picard. The Admiral responds by saying that they sent a representative to the Federation to object to the loss of their Homeworld, but it was rejected. They aren't permitted to have political autonomy. Captain Picard was specifically ordered to remove them from the planet by force if necessary, using the resources of Starfleet to deny a people their autonomy. Granted, in this case, they were only established on the planet 20 years prior which is very different from the 300-plus year history on some of the other examples, but what's unique about this case is that we are talking about a very distinct cultural presence that is separate from the culture of the Federation and wishes to develop culturally on its own terms. "Do you know how long we have searched for a home? Almost 200 years. " The point to make here is that there is something very screwy with the Federation imposing its rules on a people that doesn't want to be part of the Federation and to use Starfleet to force them into submission. Of course, the Enterprise didn't want to use force and handled things "diplomatically" but the people didn't really have a choice and they knew it. If they didn't yield to federation authority the Enterprise would have been forced to make them. "I deeply regret that we have not been able to reach an agreement, but - and I must be blunt - I cannot take no for an answer. This planet will be handed over to the Cardassian government in accordance with the terms of the border agreement. I'm very sorry, but you will have to leave. " - Picard " And if we do not?" "Then I will be forced to remove you by whatever means are necessary." - Picard They then proceeded to inform Picard that his ancestor brutally slaughtered thousands of their people 700 years prior. Moments later Picard informs a Cardassian that the planet is still in federation space so even here he does not respect their autonomy. As far as he's concerned they are federation citizens by virtue of being human and subject to federation laws. How can anyone see the Federation as anything other than tyrannous when this is how they treat people? When Wesley tried to help them, he was reprimanded by Picard who said. "Your actions reflect very badly on both this ship and of that uniform" as opposed to the actions of the Enterprise crew against an innocent people. "Now I want an explanation Mister Crusher and I want it now" - Picard "What you are doing down there is wrong. These people are not some random group of colonists. They are a unique culture with a history that predates the Federation and Starfleet." - Wesley "That does not alter the fact that my orders are to..." - Picard " I'm aware that the Admiral gave you an order. And she was given an order from the Federation Council. But it's still wrong." - Wesley " that decision is not yours to make, Cadet. I don't know what's gotten into you lately. And frankly right now I don't care. I will tell you this, while you wear that uniform he will obey every order you are given and you will conform to Starfleet regulations and rules of conduct. Is that clear?" - Picard " Yes sir, it is. But I won't be wearing this uniform any longer. I'm resigning from the academy." - Wesley Disgusted with the actions of the Federation and Starfleet, and unwilling to follow an order that he knew to be wrong, he resigned without a second thought. As anyone should do in a similar situation. Granted, he had other reasons to resign as well, but the point stands. It reminds me a bit of the maquis, many of which were Starfleet officers who resigned to fight against tyranny. When your government is violating people's rights to the point that your own military starts to resign in protest you know there's something wrong. Later, the people on the planet take cardassian prisoner for trespassing on their planet. Commander Worf tells them of the treaty and the people say that they do not recognize the treaty. But even after that Picard says that they are Federation citizens. When Worf says that they cannot keep cardassian Prisoners, the people say that Worf has no Authority there. The people keep reiterating that they do not recognize Starfleet Authority nor do they recognize Federation treaties. This is the clearest example of a colony explicitly telling Starfleet that they do not recognize their Authority which very clearly says that they do not consider themselves to be Federation citizens. In the end, in this singular unique case, they were eventually able to convince both Cardassia and the Federation to let them stay - but as Cardassian citizens. Their autonomy was never recognized. They were never allowed to be independent. The Cardassians separately agreed to leave the people alone because they were more concerned with territorial lines and keeping the Federation out of their space so it worked out, but regardless, they are now Cardassian citizens. They aren't recognized as having the autonomy to truly self govern. According to Picard, doing this wouldn't be easy. It apparently is very hard to get the Federation to agree to let humans not be Federation citizens, much harder than letting people live on their own planet. My guess is that after the cardassian government collapsed and the territories were redrawn they would have become Federation citizens again. Once again subject to the Federation. Entirely without their consent.

@@Elliandr I agree that the Federation assumes it has more authority over them then they really have. I somewhat think the Federation originally just claimed all Humans were Federation Citizens to protect them against outside powers, the problem comes when what the Federation wants and what the colonists want or need, goes against each other. It seems that the Federation forgot that they actually weren't citizens. On a side note with a lot of Trek aliens looking almost Human there might be a case were Starfleet mistook an alien colony for a Human colony. But if Starfleet can confirm that it is a Human colony I think they can at least contact them.

@@brianober7345 I can see that motivation. It starts well meaning then twists. It explains how Picard could talk about protecting the Federation citizens and then in the very next minute talk about their forceful removal and then a minute later talk about protecting them again. It's like the justification of protection got distorted over time. Your idea about a mistake and race is an interesting one and it actually makes me wonder about Evolution. For example, Vulcans and romulans split off from the same species. Give it enough time a group of humans living in isolation should evolve distinct characteristics from other groups of humans. How long before they become as different from humans as romulans are two Vulcans? And why aren't romulans assumed to be Federation citizens on the basis that Vulcans are? Is it only because romulans have or at least had enough military power to oppose forced integration? Actually, with regards to the genetically modified humans, there would already be what is essentially another species of human with its own way of doing things, but because the Federation forbids the genetic engineering Federation citizens, even though other powers have no such prohibition, they aren't allowed to live at all. Now that I think about it, there was also a case of Voyager finding a human planet in the Delta quadrant. If I recall correctly, they were transported by aliens from the time prior to humans discovering warp travel and are therefore I pre-warp civilization. They even used Morse code on old radio waves. So this would be an example of a pre-warp human civilization, but Voyager still interfered because they were human. They left them to their own devices, but if the Federation ever reaches that far will Starfleet impose its rules over a planet of people that were relocated there prior to the discovery of warp travel? Then there are the dinosaur descendants in the Delta quadrant which are originally from Earth. If they weren't a superior military power would the Federation impose its law on them as being from Earth? Lots of questions without answers here, but I would love to see a video breakdown of the way the Federation treats people who don't want to be in the Federation.