Stereophile's John Atkinson on why measurements matter 

Perhaps one of my favorite Audiophiliac videos. Precisely as I have expected coming from JA, whom I consider to be my audio equipment “guard dog”. Kudos to both of you!

Atkinson is brilliant! He has the solid real expertise so many audiophiles are missing. At the same time, he is a true enthusiast who trusts his ears and shows genuine enthusiasm for both audio equipment and music!

Steve and John I’m enjoying this talk immensely. JA is a very logical audiophile, no bs.

Great interview! Could listen to John for hours....

This one of the most objectively sensible interviewees Steve has presented to us.

More John Atkinson? Awesome. Thanks.

I'd be delighted to listen to Mr Atkinson for hours on end. Peter Walker's insight on valve and solid state amplifiers is a cracking anecdote for an old Quad loyalist like me. Fascinating stuff from a very engaging speaker ... looking forward to more, thank you Steve.

Geeze Steve, if you were a hitter in baseball you'd be the home run king, this was another grad slam, can't count the times I've thanked you for your great videos - regardless, thank you again. We can only hope that somehow you can keep it going - really, it almost seems like it's too much to ask.

Absolutely fantastic episode. Thanks Steve for interviewing the Genius.

Music is the art. The reproduction of the music is the science. There was a lot of info here. Very informative interview. In fact, Ive used the "clean window" metaphor myself when talking about what a speaker does. My only change to the analogy would be that it is more like having two windows in front of you, one on the left and one on the right.

I very rarely watch youtube videos more than once (usually only they are very technical). But Steve, you killed it with this one and Pedro yesterday. I've re-watched segments of this one and Pedro's several times. Great stuff man!!! But, you are taking away my time available to listen to my system.

Outstanding interview!

I, for one, was fascinated with this interview. That's saying a lot considering I'm one of those people whose eyes glaze over at the mere mention of the word "measurements".

Brilliant video. Thank you for making this video. This video is truly for audiophile archive library!

This man is a revelation. He's a musician and a technologist. He's got the ears and the 'tape measure'. He can tell exactly what's going on when he hears it. A true wizard. Not many of them around!

That is a GREAT interview with tons of info on measurements of audio products. Thanks Steve.

Hey Steve. Huge fan. Keep doing what you're doing. Sometimes I come home from work and just put on your videos and it puts me in a chill mood. So I thank you! Quick question: (u don't have to answer lol) but I'm going nuts trying to decide if I should get the Triangle Bro 3s, the Elac Debut Reference, or the Sonus Faber Venere 1.5s (I can get them new for $800). I have the Billie amp and a Rega planar 3 tt, and I like a warmer sort of sound. Thank you so much even if you don't answer

Such a great interview and guest!

Fascinating interview.

Even though I do not understand much "engineer talk" I still found it very interesting.

Great interview.

This man is a joy to listen to.

Excellent interview. I am convinced on importance of measurements, especially the on and off axis windows throughout the frequency range must be relatively flat ( +/- 3db or better). But well aware its not a magic formula for good sound. Some studio monitors can be extraordinarily flat in measurements but do not sound as good as one would expect. Many well regarded speaker manufacturers often design speakers with an artificial bump in the 60-150hz range to sound fuller or warmer and basically pleasing to the majority of people. Am wondering if other speaker characteristics, ie, sound stage, can be attributable to a wider off axis response. I hope Steve can ask JA that.

Easily the most important video I’ve watched this year. Which admittedly is pretty early in the year. But I reckon it’ll be hard to beat...

I remember when the Spica tc-50's came out I listened and I was sure I heard a peak at 14 KHZ but the sales people said I was crazy. Then the review came out in Stereophile and there was the frequency response graph and there was a rather steep peak at 14 KHZ !

Enjoyable review, my question is it possible that a deviation in measurement of a speaker can be remedied or made worse by room acostics.

I thoroughly enjoyed listening to John Atkinson. He is fascinating!

I really enjoy listening to John Atkinson's perspectives n opinions

It’s interesting that he correctly pointed out that an explanation for the transparency you hear with the Klipsch is low distortion, yet he later didn’t seem to think this is an advantage worth mentioning wrt big speakers.

I found it odd that JA, after explaining to Steve that large diaphragms don’t have to move much and can therefore operate with low distortion, writes them off as only being useful to provide deep bass or play loud. Low distortion is one of the reasons that well-designed high-efficiency speakers (which tend to be large) can be exceptionally transparent.

"All the mistakes we make are genuine, otherwise we wouldn't be making them." I made that quote up because I have the kind of equipment John has and when making measurements you are constantly looking over your own shoulder. It is so easy to make mistakes and you have to double check and then when you are finished, you make another check. Re transparency, it is interesting and I hope John gets to know about this in time, that the key is on electrical side and how the imperfect speaker talks back at the amplifier, and then how the amplifier reacts, has tremendous influence over this thing we call transparency. There is some interesting research going on, where we have the acoustic side well covered, but the electrical side, not so. The emergence of current-drive, not so much as a solution, but as to what really is happening, that the union between an amplifier and speaker is an uneasy one.

steve: i value your opinion - need your help. youve done review of ti hifi t2 pro, very good. But, since, t3 and t4 have come out. can you say which is best value, and or wether t4 is worth the extra money. is the t4 hype legit. hope you reply and or do a comprehensive comparative review - im sure many would appreciate it very much . thanks .

Love it, I worked in a lab for over 40 years, saw that passion to get it right every day. You never heard the words Good Enough. If it doesn't look right, find out why. 😎

I want to hear this guy every week! Cause he can really teach. Spinoff series?

Numero Uno Measuring Guy has ears🤘

Loudspeaker measurements are particularly difficult to perform and to interpret. But much can be learned by simply observing the on-axis response of a speaker system. If that curve is full of peaks and dips, then pretty much everything else is probably going to be problematic. It's unlikely the off-axis response will be linear if the on axis response is not. But even if the on-axis response is flat, it doesn't guarantee good performance in a listening room. The speaker's off axis response should closely mirror that of its on axis response, with the understanding that high frequency rolloff will be more extreme off axis. This is where many speakers run into problems that are not easily interpreted in acoustic measurements. One of the most talented speaker designers I ever met was Siegfried Linkwitz. Here were 3 of his requirements for a good sounding speaker: 1) The off-axis frequency response of the loudspeaker in the horizontal plane must mimic the on-axis response. The vertical polar response is not as critical but the formation of lobes should be avoided, i.e. the loudspeaker should be acoustically small. Such a loudspeaker has a neutral signature and its reflections and the reverberated sound field will have the spectral signature of the listening room. The polar pattern could be omni-directional, cardioid or dipolar with frequency independent power response. The omni pattern would produce the strongest interaction with the room and be the least desirable of the three. 2) The loudspeakers must be free of resonant radiation such as coming from vents or panels. Non-linear distortion must be low enough not to identify the speaker location during loud music passages. This demands adequate volume displacement capability of woofers and tweeters. 3) The loudspeakers must be set up at least 1 m distance from left and right side walls and 1 m from the wall behind them. The resulting time delay of about 6 ms is necessary for the ear-brain perceptual apparatus to separate direct from reflected sound streams. With neutral excitation of the room response, the listener can then withdraw attention from the room and process primarily the direct sound streams from the loudspeakers. This is similar to not hearing the ticking clock or to the cocktail party effect where attention and hearing is drawn to information streams of interest. Everything else is moved beyond the acoustic horizon as in survival mode.

Floyd Toole in his books explains how loudspeaker measurements correlate with double blind subjective listening preferences of trained listeners. I wonder how come there is no any ranking or comparable score of how a loudspeaker measure well compared to others, let alone compared to a reference speaker for its price range, in any magazine. This way the market keeps being a snake oil fair for rich people. There is only one page all over internet listing several loudspeaker frequency responses, and it is from Soundstage. Any other?

Man am I glad I got out of the minuscule measurements and latest and greatest circuit topology the best speaker and component cables and went back to enjoying the music with components by stereophiles class C components. My amp is 40yrs old and still cranking. Now if the music industry concentrated on recording techniques that would work for me. Steve I totally enjoy all your tunes. I’m a gear head by heart.

I used to get a Stereophile T-shirt with my subscription renewal to Stereophile. Then, one year, the offer ended. Did you run out? How can I get a new Stereophile T-shirt?

Great interview! Thanks.

Is this the John Atkinson that reviewed the Totem Mani-2 (the most power-hungry monitor ever made) with an 8-WATT CARY Integrated amp for Stereophile?

GR Research has done some interesting videos on measurements. He explains that measurements are indeed useful, but very hard to infer information from unless the measurements are: (a) done in an anechoic chamber and (b) contain spectral decay information. He suggests that spectral decay (how long certain frequencies ring out) tells you more about how a speaker will sound than the frequency response curve.

Why do we never see polar plots from John / Stereophile? Given that the loudspeaker is intended to perform in a room with reflective / refractive / diffractive / absorptive surfaces ... knowing a loudspeaker’s polar plot over its entire bandwidth might lend valuable information about how it might interact with room surfaces.

Say what you will about Stereophile, JA's among the very few bothering to dig deeper into the measurements side. And I've seen many occasions where he gives some words of warning regarding some very expensive gear. Props.

Finally, a voice of reason on the matter. My experience tells me when someone states measurements don't matter, I'm being "sold" something.

Speed accuracy measurements for turntables seem relevant. Speaker efficiency as well. Output impedance on my various cd players is useful. Just my opinion.

Great interview in my experience of people buying speakers it is better for them to listen first to a range of different ones in a demo room and let them choose the one they like for the type of music they listen to and may not be the best measured or reviewed but they will be happy

I enjoyed this tremendously, John great at making things accessible. Although, I would also welcome a video that explains the charts and graphs in a way that a true layman would understand. I have no idea what the blue and red lines mean, what they are supposed to look like, or how different gear is expected to measure. It’s one area of the hobby that seems impenetrable at times.

Outstanding interview. I was grinning like a Cheshire cat by the end. Alhough the "speaker" seemed to have his own distortion issue. Try "Tunes" John ( the British version of Halls cough sweets ;-) Of course measurements matter, they're boring, but you'd expect the MFR to pay attention to the boring stuff for you- right? Been a fan of JA since HFN&RR: A Brit musician and recording engineer, what's not to like? I wish John had his own RU-vid channel! After reading his endorsement of the KEF LS50 in Stereophile, I had to have a pair ( and a pair of REL subs ;-) Loved the comment "Bass- if your room can handle it " :-D And " it's hard to design a bad tube amp"- classic. And " the Klipsch have almost no moving parts" ! I'm reconsidering my Stereophile subscription, just to support John and Herb. Thanks Steve

I would love for any audiophile to show the results of their hearing test with a doctor... I would love to know how sensitive their ears truly are. I would also love a blind test..

Why do horn speakers, in general (there are good and bad speakers of every type) sound more "real" is a really interesting question. John's comment "it's a speaker with no moving parts" is an interesting answer. Acoustic amplification is better than electronic amplification? It's certainly the least expensive way to achieve headroom in a playback system. Great interview.

Some great points here. Though I do believe there is an over-emphasis by far too many people on measurements. Their importance should not be discounted. I for one, like some assurance that the manufacturer's claims are accurate, the component is well built, and its design been thoroughly thought out. I would love to see more folks do some truth in advertising measurements and post the results. It is an area within the you tube community where the availability of such information seems extremely limited.

Steve, I was at a show not too long ago and they played klipschorns loudly and they sounded so bad that I had to leave the room. Try some horn JBLs instead.

I do think that Steve actually stumped John at the end, trying to justify that big speakers sound bigger. I don't agree with John that large speakers simply "go lower and play louder". When I play large speakers at a low volume, they still sound BIGGER and more effortless than small speakers at the same volume. John touched on the idea that the Klipsch drivers are barely moving, but i think it's more than that..... it's how large speakers energize the air in the room. Taking a measurement from one position, on-axis won't tell you that.

You've just made the rabbit hole much much deeper. At what $ point can discernment between Tele/Strat be realized?

He should have have own channel! ...though I could easily understand a person not wanting to become a youtube personality ;)

And someone once said he was a "black hat"? A really enjoyable interview.

Did I miss which loudspeaker measures well but sounds bad?

Simple ear measurement: Rub your left thumb and forefinger together next to your left ear. Do the same on the right. If they are different, at least one is wrong.

Years ago I heard a pair of Klipsch computer speakers that sounded like a perfect tiny orchestra.

Fantastic explanation why measurements matter. I don’t know why you resist it. As speaker and amp manufacterers realize...it is essential. This video is a wonderful educational moment without The BS of we don’t care if a violin sounds like a cello because we “feel” the speakers sound so good. “The tweeters needed to warm up”...genius.

Wonderful interview and JA makes a lot of valid points, however, but Steve I don't think JA "gets" high efficiency speakers like Cornwall's. The 15 inch woofer isn't used to lower the bass response, more so to increase efficiency and keep distortion low in a somewhat reasonable sized cabinet. I have mid-70's Cornwall's and also Altec 19's and I love their effortlessness and low distortion at any volume level I care to listen at. Steve, keep rockin' yer Cornwall's!!!

Very enjoyable interview although I wish that he'd answered your question about speakers that measure well but sound bad.

Award winning engineer and loudspeaker designer John Dunlavy( r.i.p) used to tell me that most every loudspeaker design out there (except his own and Thiels- both using 1st order cross w time signed drivers) were no good! Claimed that impulse response time measurements were garbage on other designs, and and that these others weren't ACCURATE sounding loudspeakers. This was just one of many perspectives and opinions i heard from various engineers with differing opinions n design philosophies

A system can measure perfectly and then the room and bad speaker placement ruin it in most setups :)

I must have really enjoyed that interview, because it had such interesting content, that I thought there was at least 20 minutes left when there were only 3 left. I could listen to John talk all day, especially with that calm English accent. Thanks so much, Steve. 🎶🔊🙂

Haha. This coming after Steve telling us to ignore measurements.

John’s a very interesting guy and he has re-affirms my theory that measurements matter, however only by listing to a piece of equipment can you decide it’s to your taste.

🤙🤙🤙

On why measurements matter? Didn't Steve just tell us yesterday or was it the previous day, measurements don't matter? Before I listen to the video....I think some measurements in particular are useful and likely matter. Other measurements not so.....also depends on the piece of gear we are talking about. Right.....off to listen to this. Pausing my music time ⏳

So the Wilson's had a mfg problem? How much do the cost?

I love your chemistry here Steve with John. Better than even Nelson pass if you ask me.

Steve thank you for this! I could listen to John all day, I still own a Stereophile Test CD from 1990, it has Mr. Halt's dog barking. By the way, I know Sasha from when he used to teach a film class at SUNY. For me, measurements matter only if I'm aware of the flaws.

I could hear John Atkinson all day long. As an audiophile with a degree in industrial design and electronics engineering I really think measurements are a good starting point, I won't spend my time listening to components that don't measure well, we are very easily fooled by our senses, what my seem exciting and entertaining might just be excess in the bass and highs (this sold tons of Bose crap) after a few hours of listening you might become fatigued and go into psycho mode. We have habits and are used to our ways, hearing is one of them. I used to think my fathers HiFi in the mid 70s sounded great because that was my benchmark and compared and it did well against the few others I had access to. Today I know for sure that it was not such a great deal and it's sound was pretty incorrect (I still have the huge 12 inch Jensen Speakers). When I went deep into HiFi one of the first things I had to do was to train myself to hear again, I was used to hear music with loudness on and the tone controls dialed far out, so when I stopped using them I missed them and even felt sound was less exciting, but just a few days later I start feeling and hearing in a hole new way, I discovered I had been pushing the sound as I wanted not as it was. Most equipment manufactures really give few measurements (but few are better than none) many of them certainly lie and it is a good exercise verifying if you can trust a company or not. I don't think you must only "believe your ears" because as I said before if you are not trained and have a lot of experience your ears can very easily be fooled.

When an amp & a speaker have synergy, you need not change one or the other.

Subjective listening is fine - just as long as you only ever listen to 1 recording.

John is an absolute treasure. Absolutely love him expect for when he talks measurements, which I do not believe in. My ears are my guide. Nonetheless, please bring more JA interviews to the table...just avoid measurements. :-)

Julian Hirsch did measurements.

Measurements can certainly paint a picture of why a speaker is producing the sonic signature it does. Measurements can also help identify true problem areas when designing a speaker. However, measurements are worthless when it comes to deciding on which speaker you like the sound of. So, in that respect, measurements don't matter at all. Now, if you get a speaker you loved in the store home and it doesn't sound as good in your living room then measurements can help identify the problem and perhaps it can be addressed. But a speaker that measures well, at least in John's opinion of how things ought to measure, may sound terrible to you no matter where it happens to be. Generally speaking I find speakers that the condescending audiophile types love aren't very engaging, particularly realistic or accurate in their presentation. But they measure well! Really? Okay, go measure a real violin in the same space. Bet it didn't measure anything at all like your speaker did when playing a recording of a violin, did it? Probably didn't measure well but it sounded exactly like a real violin. Look, it get it. Measurements have a place in speaker design and in identifying characteristics/problems. I understand measurements well. Not as well as John but well. Even so, there is no way I'd pay a dime for a speaker I didn't enjoy the sound of just because someone claimed it measured well. And yes, it is absolutely is okay for someone to enjoy a pair of speakers that makes a violin sound like a viola if that's what they like. All you can do is show them the difference another pair of speakers make. If they don't care then it's your problem if that bothers you, not theirs. Speaking of speakers. As I always do when someone insinuates they know how things should sound, should measure or should be done. Put your money where your mouth is. When, pray tell, will the new line of Atkinson Audio, Made to Measure speakers be available for audition? Distill all you knowledge and opinions into the product of your dreams and let's see how many folks out there share your opinion on how a speaker should sound.

I agree ears are more important than measurements when evaluating a single product. However when comparing 2 products, measurements are very useful to reveal the relative performance. If you can’t measure the difference than there IS no difference and any difference you think you hear is just subjective. Take expensive audio cables for instance.... I really enjoyed the interview, thank you!

You only need one instrument - your own ears. The level of joy is the measurment.

Well said @ 12:50.

Great interview Steve. Thank you! Why do you think measurments are not useful to the consumer? Because they don't understand them?

It is always interesting to hear something from a "man-instituion" JA. He is very humble erudit of audio and I got a feeling that he is always have to reassure himself. But, there is not beed for constant apologizing to a women which is part of the modern "wich hunting" agenda. Yes, there are women in audio, a and there are men in fashion but both in minority - that is natural selection and that is "telecaster sound like telecaster" in society. Seeking for purity in audio should start with accepting natural order between humans. Audio world is open to all who likes it. I have never experinced sex discrimination nor I would support it. I say this because I saw JA R2D4 pick and itvis all about the women and now the comment about women engineers. #metoo in audio world? Noooo

How about what's really going on with Harry and Meghan?

kudos for having the integrity to post this, Steve, despite your own biases. it's yet another issue requiring little polarization, yet which suffers much. as in most such contentions, the truth is more nuanced than the partisan arguments. measurements don't dispel the utility for further commentary and subjective analysis, but that commentary and analysis CANT AND WONT dispel the potential utility of well-executed measurements *honestly reported*. let's just all damn manufacturers who brazenly lie/deceive buyers regarding measurements, and move on from absolutism beyond that. k?

I believe the best measurements are made by your ears!

A better suited title would of been "Trust us instead of your ears on what you should buy"

TIL how JA provides value to Stereophile advertisers through the appearance of "neutral scientific measurement." But just how neutral can a media company that survives on advertiser dollars be? Testing equipment is not their business. Advertising sales are their business. Rational people refer to this as a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Might as well call the mag Sound and Fury.

That'd have to be quite an f'd up speaker to make a Stratocaster sound like a Tele, or a violin like a viola. Something far more atrocious than a Zu or Klipsch.

Lots of snake oil in the audio industry and measurement separates the wheat from the chapp.

Is John sick

finally the first audio "expert" that makes sense and isn't an artist

Second 😂😂

At your age you still don't understand WHY good single ended tube amplifiers sound so GOOD.....while your measurements show greater distortion in comparison to almost unmeasurable low distortion amplifiers witch sound ......never as good. I feel sorry for you John.......... Believe measurements, don't believe your ears and what music does to your soul....Hmm.

atkinson -- and stereophile -- are about as relevant as "i love lucy" reruns. do these guys even listen to music? seem like total frauds...

Solid state is garbage