Hi guys, there have been a few people correcting me on the statement that "ISO refers to the sensitivity of your camera's sensor to light". You are correct. Admittedly, for the life of me, I cannot understand why I went with that word in the script because I'm trying to make the opposite point that dialing up the ISO only amplifies the brightness as stated from 1:56 - 3:06 I hope I was clear enough in that section.
There's a bunch of weeds to be waded through here, due to the wrong conceptualisation of ISO that is common. The statement that ISO 'amplifies the brightness' is also wrong, I'm afraid, but not as wrong as saying it's 'the sensitivity of your camera's sensor to light'. The key point to understand is that 'brightness' is irrelevant to the output of your camera, so no 'amplification of brightness' is needed, nor does it occur. That's because the output of a camera isn't light, its a statement of locations in a colour space. The relevant term is 'lightness', not 'brightness'. This is all from colour theory, developed originally for the printing industry. Lightness (the 'L' in the Lab colour space) runs on a fixed scale from 'black' to 'white' and determines how a human observer should see it, not an absolute amount of light. Some people get worried about unfamiliar terms, but the important realisation is that the input and output are different things, and using the same word ('i.e. 'brightness') for input and output just confuses them, and leads directly to this fallacy that 'brightness' needs 'amplifying', from which most of the misunderstandings about ISO derive.
@@BobN54 I’m in a wavelength of getting better in photography not in a perception of science 😜for lightness of me your input is irrivalent. I’m going to present an argument and statement according to Adobe’s subscription based model vs Affinity Serif’s pay-as-you-go model. And community driven open source software. Which camp are you in? I remember when Apple came with their own SoC M1. You would argue Adobe would be forerunner as they have ressources. What happened one bug to another. It hurts me when Adobe is promoted as such. You reading this because you waist my time with technicalities and suspectiously add revenue from Adobe. Instead of concentrating on title of this video you all derailed to bs. But I do want to send some love to Mads Peter Iversen for excellent contents. Though this video might have an Adobe add and “I’m an Engineer” corrections.
@@mico5003 HI. I really have difficulty comprehending what you're trying to say. This is nothing about 'perception of science', it's about basic understanding of photography - the true explanations of why things are as they are. Simply, if you want to know what 'ISO' is, you might as well know the right answer, not the wrong one. I have no idea at all what all the stuff about Adobe has to do with all this.
I would say that the key here is to shoot at the lowest/cleanest ISO possible, but don't risk blur (unintended blur that is) in an effort to get a cleaner image. Yes it's a compromise but as someone once told me, we can fix noise, we can't really fix motion blur (at least, not usually, although there are some tools that can help with slight blur from camera shake, but when given the choice, I'd increase the ISO in exchange for a cleaner image out of camera, since denoising has gotten so good). This is not to say to use excessively high ISOs. Use the cleanest/lowest ISO you can for the situation (if you're handholding, then you may need to increase it -- if you're on a tripod, then usually shutter speed is not a concern and you can use a low ISO, assuming that nothing is moving in the scene). As for shooting below the base ISO, I think this depends on the camera. I just checked my Nikon Z7 II and while there may be a slight advantage shooting at say the equivalent of ISO 32 vs the native ISO 64, it's not all that visible even at 800% in the shadows. So it will depend on the camera's sensor as to whether shooting below the native/base ISO is worth it or not, and in most cases you will be compromising something as a result, or room for error when using extened ISOs (lower-end) may be smaller. That being said, I do know (through testing) that I can pretty much under expose by about 2 stops from base ISO and bring up the exposure in post (to minimize noise) with no real side effects (so for example, if an exposure called for ISO 200, I could really do ISO 64 and just bring it up in post with a potentially cleaner image).
I did a graduation shoot for my friend's daughter this summer, and the first 20% or so of shots I took I had absent-mindedly left it on ISO 3200 (I'd forgot that my brother was using my camera to take pictures indoors at a party we were hosting, and thought I was on 100). I was mad at myself when I saw all the noise in Lightroom when I was editing them and hit the "Denoise" button thinking it wasn't going to do anything. POOF it all went away, as though I'd taken the shot with my ISO all the way down. My mind was blown.
Out of all the setting ISO really doesn't matter... because out of the three shutter speed and aperture allow you to make creative decisions about the picture you are taking, ISO does not... it only decides how much noise you have to have. Make your creative decisions first and then change your ISO to fit that. Of course you can make alter your creative decisions and play with different apertures and shutter speeds to try to get an optimal image with less noise, but it's important to get 'The Shot' first. If I am "freezing" action, I am often starting at 1/2000s for a shutterspeed (anywhere up to like 200mm), and then if I want to ensure DOF so that my subject is in focus even if I am moving fast (e.g. driving in a vehicle), F8 is usually good. From there I can get 'a shot' after getting that you can experiment. Do you reduce shutter speed to 1000? Do you try at F4.... do you do both and allow you to quarter your ISO.... well thats all stuff you can do once you have the shot, and once you have your creative constraints in place. Recently when shooting humming birds, I needed to keep the shutter speed at 1/2000 because it gave the right amount of detail, but also some movement in the wings.... aperture slowly got wider and wider.
Have you ever used dark frame subtraction to eliminate noise? You take an exposure the same length of time at the same iso with the lens cap on right after you capture the picture which should give you a dark frame with sensor noise only.
@@robertruszkiewicz8126simply load one frame/picture, load the dark frame to another layer, and use DIFFERENCE blend mode. Lookup astrophotography dark frame subtraction, there are programs that will do this automatically available for free.
Is rather open the aperture , or and use a tripod and / or flash than bump up the iso/asa , iv played this game since film was the medium , one thing iv learnt , people hate noise and washed out colours that come with it
Taking pictures at a higher iso is fine in theory but the problem Is you are restricted to whatever is your camera is capable of as some budget or older cameras are more limited in their capabilities
I usually always use 100 iso (ASA), but I've been shooting for 40 years and am a stickler for detail (I am industrial photog).. But if you have lighting problems only then do you use higher iso. My favorite camera back in those days was my Leica R8 and my Sinar 4x5. I recently bought a nikon z7 but I use it for snapshots. I mainly use a Fuji Film camera for work.
People often think that ISO invariant cameras are inherently better which is not always true. Usually it just means that the sensor has only one actual gain value and any other "ISO" setting just means that the camera multiplies or divides the data by appropriate value. Which, while convenient (you don't have to worry about underexposing), does not necessarily mean that a sensor with multiple different gain values couldn't achieve better results.
Really sure that DXO and Topaz - and not Adobe - have been revolutionizing denoising for quite a few years now!! Yes, Adobe may have caught up with their most recent release - better late to the party than never!! Using DXO PhotoLab Elite gives a huge sensor upgrade to Micro 4/3; enabling that platform to be highly competitive - the main reason I use Panasonic G9 for Landscape/Scenic photography. Do not fear the ISO!!
A point to clarify is that a sensor used in any model of camera is only ISO invariant (no change of noise level relative to an ISO value) within a range of ISO values, it's usually stair stepped going between increasing ISO values. The larger / wider the range of identical noise levels as you increase the ISO, the more invariant that sensor is within that ISO range.
You introduce how to get rid of noise, it works. What i suggest is to make you keep or even boost your noise for better photos. Why? The noise is Natural, in Sound, in Picture. If you want to get rid of it you get an unnatural polished sound or photo, result is the sound or photo is loosing its life/Soul. When u get older at some point u might understand what i try to say. Just like why people like vinyl records, because they have noise/Life/Soul in them. With the cd’s the trend was look hear how noiseless sound. That killed the records. Now pros understood it and synthetisers have noise sounds to add LIFE to music.
As you say Its best to use the lowest ISO that is the correct ISO for the image you are trying to capture; the lowest possible may well turn out to be 1600 or higher.
Really not always true. Astrophotography is very common where you don't see anything at the terrain and it's better to use higher iso before cliping some highlights. This way you can not only compose but also check the quality of the very dark regions. Otherwise, you'll find out only during post. Specially, today mostly of the good sensors are iso invariant for large range
Thanks for this. Interesting note on “invariance” that I’ll have to look into, if my eye can discern within a relevant window of ISO values on my camera. However, I’m not really keen on regarding ISO as an acronym - I realise the International Organisation for Standards exists, and covers many fields, and that many people commonly pronounce it “eye ess oh” like an acronym, when related to camera sensitivity (I do still think of it as “sensitivity” in film terms, but glad to know the clarification of amplification) but although this is commonly done, it isn’t technically correct. Rather than an acronym, it’s an abbreviation originating from the Greek “isos” for equal - presumably the 3 elements of the exposure triangle coming together to the resultant exposure. Therefore, whilst I never quibble someone saying I S O, “eyesso” is the accurate. I hadn’t appreciated the International Standards Organisation, but think this distinction still stands. The Greek term is also where the standards organisation drew its acronym from. Just a friendly FYI, hopefully not to be received as too much of a “jobsworth” contribution.
These days cameras are so good that I rarely consider ISO. My first consideration is aperture, Unless my subject is moving. Then shutter speed will be my primary consideration. I'll let the ISO fall where it will unless it is outrageously high.
It is refreshing to see what dull pointless pictures you take while trying to capture something that is worth showing on the internet 😁 Don't get me wrong, it reminds me of the fact that youtubers show just the best of the best pictures they take. Maybe you should do a video about failed photos.
Mads, can you please explain, what settings you changed on your computer to get the job done faster in photoshop? I think I have some kind the same issue. Maybe it would even be interesting to more people. Unfortunately not all can just buy a new laptop and if there is away to solve the problem it would be awesome. Thanks a lot.
I turned off the native GPU so that only the strong one was running. Be sure to Google how to do that. Alternatively, you may be able to force Lightroom/CameraRaw to use the strong one via the settings. It's Googlable ;)
Wish I would have understood this better when shooting on our whale watching tour a few days ago. With the rough seas and being in a zodiak, I struggled to get as clean of images (in focus) as I would have liked. I definitely did get plenty of decent ones but would have liked to have done better.
But those examples around 5 mins isn't the ISO fault not if you follow what Simon d'Entremont said in his video, they are just badly exposed to begin with, because you want an low aperture.
@@MadsPeterIversen well if you used an higher aperture you could increase the shutter speed and the begin to fiddle with the ISO. Dunno if it was the tamron lens you used, so don't know you didn't have an higher aperture.
@@basserfelt but the point was, that I wanted the low aperture to have the sea stacks in the background more in focus and the shutter speed acceptably high, this only leaves me with a higher ISO. It's about getting that balance ;)
Another excellent video. Just want to say Mads that you are one of the best photography educators I've come across on RU-vid. You clearly have a wealth of knowledge, but more importantly you really know how to explain things. I also appreciate that you generally avoid the 'this is why you are a terrible photographer' approach that I see more and more of. Will certainly be signing up for your Photoshop course, once I can set aside the time to work through it! All the best, and thanks!
I shoot with a Nikon D7200 camera and it has pretty decent dynamic range. When I shoot with my Tamron 150-600 lens in manual mode with auto-ISO (max to 2200), a trick I've learned is by using -0.7 to -1.0 exp. comp lowers my ISO down a little and I can bring back some shadow details in post.
I've revisited some old images with Adobe's Denoise and the different made was incredible Mads and definitely belays any fears about bumping up the ISO. Alyn's video on invariant camera was really informative and definitely a recommwatch for anyone wanting to know more about this subject
This seems quite a complicated technical issue, but for someone like me - a simple soul, I get the basic idea. ISO as related to the digital sensor is a bit similar to ISO using film but different. But from a photography point of view it works more or less the same? Have I got it right?
I would say so. Depriving the sensor or film of enough light will reduce the quality of the picture. The effect is the same. As you can guess, in film, there is a chemical reaction to light on the emulsion. Too little light (raising the ASA/ISO to a higher level), doesn't give the film or sensor enough time to react. As you can see in the examples provided, the pictures where the ISO was very high, the quality was crap, not very good. I would think he would use the Sony A7S3, with a sensor built just for low light photography. The pixel density isn't as high, 16mp or so, but you will get a better picture.
Vintage and older digital cameras aside, the de-noise software only emboldens my conviction to stick with the µ4/3 system platform, as it already produces great image quality, for challenging scenes, one can simply de-noise in post. Which results in a relatively smaller overall kit for a half the cost, or a third at best, coupled with the latest technologies… 🤔
Question about ISO, in video using the native 12800 on A7S3 is a lot better than using 8000, does this apply to photos too or no? - also considering 640 and 12800 are native is there a big difference between 640 and 12800 with a quality ND filter in output photo and video quality?
Question about ISO, in video using the native 12800 on A7S3 is a lot better than using 8000, does this apply to photos too or no? - also considering 640 and 12800 are native is there a bit difference between 640 and 12800 with a quality ND filter in output photo and video quality?
funny. it's exactly how it's with analog audio gear. thanks to denoising tools you can cut out all the noise but keep the character of the analog gear.
Hi Mads thanks for the refresher. Very easy to understand for us technically challenged photography artists. Aperture for the depth of field required artistically. Shutter speed to freeze or blur motion as required artistically. ISO to control brightness usually only required if the previous settings cause clipping on the histogram that may result in the inability to reclaim detail in post. Great balance between technical, artistic and just enjoying the experiences. Great channel. Practical, valuable and inspirational content. Thank you.
Great video, thanks Mads. I didn’t know about stacking into a smart layer and then blending. Great tip! I use On1 for denoise and I think it works better than LR.
I'm an engineer. There is a mistake on the video. Although in analogic photography the ISO is the sensitivity to light, in digital it's not the case. ISO at digital is merely a gain on the sign generated. The final brightness of the salts (proportional to the chemical reaction advance) is affected by the apperture, time o exposure (both affectig the amount of photons reaching the film) and iso (which is the capability of the film to absorve those photons. However, the sensitivity of a sensor never changes and once it is high you get iso invariance and iso or post gain are equal (in results not in practical usage as higher iso could make it possible to see dark at composition). Films really change the iso make them to capture more or less light during the exposure. Besides, the iso variant is not only better to increase on location but also the amount of noise will vary depending on different ranges. Some of those sensors produce non linear results and strange and stargged noise distribution too
I'm really trying to understand what you're saying here, but I don't. What exactly is the mistake and where do I say it? If it's the case it's of course good to get it corrected!
@@MadsPeterIverseniso in digital is a value amplification. I.e. the same amount of light is always received by a digital sensor regardless of exposure. In other words the exposure curve in iso terms is linear in digital. In film iso is reactivity to the variability of light received. In other words iso for film and exposure are tied at the hip in an exponential curve. I.e. more light compounds the reaction. It is why film and digital are opposite when it comes to the expose for highlights, expose for shadows paradigm between the two mediums. Film cant resolve if enough light has not been received to catalyze the reaction whereas digital just amplifies the limited light that was received. In digital the opposite sort of occurs when too much light is received. The digital sensor becomes super saturated with light up to maximum values of say 256, rendering highlight detail lost. The chemical reaction of film on the other hand is an exponential curve, where more light has diminishing returns on the reaction, thus preserving details at much higher levels of over exposure versus a corresponding digital sensor set at an “equivalent” amplification value (iso + exposure). I hope that makes sense 😅
8:15 looks like quite a lot of noise in my opinion, but this kinda seems almost like a trick in a way: photos of landscapes with a lot of texture like this one can kinda mask a lot of the noise.
A good, informative video. But I must point out something. I go back about 60 years with photography. With film we had ASA and DIN. Pronounced A-S-A and D-I-N. They were replaced with ISO. Back then it was pronounced I-S-O by all my instructors and photographers I knew. Along comes digital and a new younger group of photographers that think of it as a word, EYESO. I live in the U-S-A. What about those in the E-U or U-K? It is not USAH, YUK or YEOU. In the end, how it is pronounced doesn't really matter as long as people understand what it is and how to apply ISO. But it does drive some of us ancient ones crazy!
Good topic, I'm a beginner, I'm trying to learn with the iPhone 14 Pro and Sony ZV-E10 camera (with Sigma 16mm f1.4 lens) and I realize that noise is the enemy of even expensive cameras and I want to make very clean videos and photos without any noise, of course, with an additional denoizer plugin.
They say that the three sides of the exposure triangle are equally important. When shooting wildlife, though, I find that ISO is the least important leg. Shutter speed and aperture are paramount. Either clean up the high-ISO noise in post, or live with it.
using a Nikon D780 of Z6ii the noise level is the same at ISO 400 and 1000 and up to ISO1000 is well within range of most cameras at ISO100 This fixation of must keep ISO100 is a real handicap using modern digital cameras.
ISO should be at the lowest possible for the situation, if the light and conditions permit it for landscapes I'm sticking to ISO 64 on my main body and ISO 100 on my secondary body for their dynamic range there, if I need to up it I know I get completely acceptable images at ISO 6400 on my main and 3200 on my secondary.
Probably the best analogy I have ever heard, and I am into loud hard amplified amp running, subwoofers with a 3000 watt sound system in my camper van kind of guy !
Great video and content. I was in Iceland for my 7 th visit last year and I was at the same places that you took your pics. Have you ever taken puffin pics at Bakkageroi. I have some great pics of puffins there. Thank you for you info on ISO. Ben
From my understanding all camera shoot at base ISO the change is done on your photo not the sensor. Also a lot of DSLR have noise reduction in camera but by default it’s turned off. Turning it makes a big difference.
when you increase the gain by increasing the ISO, you also increase the noise which is why I keep the ISO low. I can't afford a $2500 camera so I have to live with the sensor I've got.
For some sensors the ISO changes the dynamic range. A sensor might have a higher dynamic range at ISO 800, depending on your goals you might choose the dynamic range over less noise. I think there are also sensors where the noise increases when going BELOW a certain ISO. Know your gear :)
During the day, when the sun is shining, always set iso to 100, in cloudy weather and low light, to iso 400, and at night, you can set it from 500 to above, 600, 800, 1000, and so on.
I noticed weird lines in the star photos after AI denoise…I have seen the same in some of my photos. Did you notice that and if so did you figure out why or how to get rid of it?
I have the sony zv I. No matter what I have tried on my settings the camera is useless when walking...tip 1..don't buy the Sony zv 1.. useless camera...and any tuber that does paid 😂don't believe a word they say cos u did and I thought I would buy that Sony zv 1 😢😢😢