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Ben is the GOAT pistol trainer. Many others train their way of doing it, while he trains the underlying principles that matter. Plainly spoken, funny and humble despite being a champion several times over.
When I started watching your videos, you have a way of teaching and explaining techniques for shooting that just clicked with me. I have pretty severe neuropathy in my hands from a previous amateur boxing career when I was younger. I wanted to take up shooting and every day carry, but thought those issues would make it almost impossible. I still have pretty decent grip strength although slightly diminished but through your videos I realized that the key is making good connection with the gun. And the way you explained recoil control with your eyes really lit a lightbulb in my head. I like taking classes but I have honestly gotten just as much, if not more from watching your videos and putting that information into practice in my dry fire and at the range. I was surprised, but not really, at how much better I got from your information. Still a lot of work to do but it’s fun hitting the range to practice what you teach. Thanks Ben!
I once (and only once) asked my old karate instructor what exercises to make my kicks stronger. He just smirked and walked away to start class. We then did several thousand kicks over the next hour. After class he told me, "next week you'll be stronger" . I think that's the same with shooting and things like grip... do it A LOT and you'll get stronger and better. Assuming its done right
I don't do what so many other people do and say I do the Vogel grip or I do this grip. I have looked at videos of peoples opinions and listen to what they say, but in reality I do what grip I find the most comfortable and that gives me the best control. This has been with a lot of trial an error. People get so stuck on how one person says you should grip the gun and that is honestly stupid. At least Ben doesn't say "you need to grip the gun exactly this way". Just gives you the idea of what you need to do to get a grip you are comfortable with
Makes sense. Anatomical differences make it hard for one size all guidance in so many realms even beyond shooting. I find the guidance from top guys like Ben helps me round some corners but what matters is trial and error through a lot of training and constantly evaluating results.
IMO handgun grip is similar to playing the piano. High level classical piano is extremely demanding, at first glance many would assume you need great strength and stamina to play difficult pieces. But, most (if not all) of the top level pianists are not in good shape or strong at all (lots of old ladies/men, 100lb women, and nerdy kids). It's all about the technique and mechanical efficiency. What's most important is keeping everything relaxed and using the minimum amount of force possible. Strength can sort of help, but it's not even close to being a requirement or the main factor that allows high level playing.
It's like most things, dexterity and finesse / subtlety means more than brute power. Using a hammer on nails, casting a fly, swinging a golf club, or filing metal.
As someone who has been bodybuilding for over a decade, I can say that getting stronger can help, but only so much. You reach a point where everything is miniscule. I'm 215lbs, yet there are smaller individuals who can simply grip/shoot the firearm better who have been shooting much longer than I have. I think there is a threshold, which most people are already in. Could it help, sure.. I just think you would be better off throwing rounds down range/dry firing than only focusing on grip strength (for majority of individuals) - Just IMO
I'm 71 and probably have above-average grip strength FOR MY AGE (but also osteoarthritis in my hands and wrists). Last I checked, I had 100lb+ on my dominant hand and 80lb+ on my support hand. I bought some of the Captains of Crush grippers, but unless you also work on your grip extensors, you can easily injury yourself. And it is boring. Instead of using the grippers, I now work my hand/wrist strength training into my regular workout at the gym. Dumbbell curls (including with reverse grip), dead hangs and pullups and Farmer carry. And I kill 2 birds with 1 stone doing it as part of my gym routine, instead of separate hand strength exercises. And these exercises seem to help my arthritis. Honestly, following Ben's advice and concentrating on the target and consistent recoil and recoil management, has done more for me than working grip strength alone. (Like dropping a second off my Bill Drill times). I love the way that Ben advocates finding what works for YOU. We are all built different and what works for me, may not work for you. The key appears to be practicing (including dry fire) and learning to diagnose one's problems in order to fix them. Not looking for some "one size fits all" solution.
I think, it's a positive to have developed strength and endurance, so that it's easier to maintain a consistent grip and recoil control. I think fatigue can breakdown any repetitive task, and maybe it's good to have a little extra in the tank.
"The way to get better with firearms is to do firearms training, I think." Wow, what a weird fucking concept. Sarcasm, obviously. Sometimes, it IS this fucking simple. A lot of people will do everything under the sun (especially those buff dudes) EXCEPT shoot.
Grip and upper body strength helps to an extent, there is a point of diminishing returns where there is little to no advantage with upping your grip strength.
Ben, I realize that I could learn how to hold the gun through a process of dry fire and live fire while playing attention to how the gun reacts during live fire but instead I’d like you to give me a long complicated explanation of exactly how to hold the gun that would immediately degenerate into an argument over terminology as different people would argue over the precise definition of words. This would take longer and be less useful than just doing the work, but it would be easier because I would never have to face the fact that I could have just done the work a few years ago instead of wasting my time and yours arguing online. Thanks.
the grippers are not something you should be cranking on day in and day out. a set of 10, 2-3 times a week is enough. as an old printer who threw tons of paper day in and day out for many years, and had very strong hands, wrists, forearms, i lost my wrists due to severe arthritis, and will say the wrists are way more important than grip strength. the wrists are what helps with muzzle flip.
Probably just exposing how little I know about all this, but I do train grip to a moderate extent. Anecdotally I have found it to be beneficial and have seen a correlation in more points at matches with less mental effort devoted to thinking about establishing and maintaining my grip over a stage, and more to executing my stage plans, moving aggressively though the course, etc. Maybe it's just a placebo effect but it has provided positive results for me, personally.
I used to think grip was all about doing more. Then, in a class with Ben he told me I had the strongest grip on the gun he’d ever seen. I slowly started relaxing my grip, it took a while to trust it. Now I realize for me, grip is about doing less. Like Ben said you can’t tell someone exactly how to grip. Be willing to play the fool, pay attention and progress will happen.
More people should understand that we have all different bodies with different fingers, wrists, muscles, etc... There's no one size fits all grip, find a way to stay connected to the gun, and run it fast/ aggressive
The need for this kind of teaching is prevalent in LE and by red shirt instructors. It's more evidence they dont't know how to shoot. Instead of teaching people to shoot they teach to put there finger here, their shoulder there. Then they go up and down the line looking at these body positions - moving people this way or that - and not looking at them shoot, or talking to them about they feel or what they perceive is the effect on the gun. Their confidence, the results on the target, etc. I once went to a class where red shirts - who could barely shoot but went to a week long training by self proclaimed tight pant bearded tattoo former XYZ's and they spent an hour and half talking (yes talking) about all the different kind of malfunctions you could have and what they're called.
Ben you are the Bruce Lee of the sport shooting world. As far as your approach to shooting principles and fundamentals. I like that you don’t put everything in a little tiny box like “you must do these things just as I do” The biggest thing that’s helped me so far is that piece you said on how to hold the pistol. Just hold it firmly and in a way that’s comfortable. Everyone gets way too caught up on how much pressure, what angle, do I need to be able to choke out baby seals with my strong hand only so that I know I’m holding it tight enough? Anyways thanks, keep the great info and trolling coming.
The reason why I think a tutorial video would help is because it gives people a better understanding of how a master of the craft does it because it them people can mimic and try until to develop their own style and have it click.
Falling down the hole of "perfecting" my grip; worrying about different nuances, muscles, techniques etc is absolutely the worst thing that I could have done to further my skills. In fact, I would say it stifled my learning until I stopped worrying about it.
My guess is all this grip strength talk came about as a result of Hunter Constantine’s video a few weeks ago about how he grips the gun. He talks about gripping the gun 100% in both hands, trying to crush the grip. He even mentions his hand strength on the dynamometer being around 160-170lbs, and trying to crush a Glock frame. Seems to coincide with all the comments mentioning grip.
Were you born yesterday dude? This hand/grip strength stuff has been around since the beginning of USPSA. Even before Bob Vogel (who's one of the major proponents of grip strength), there was Rob Leatham (who is arguably a better and more accomplished shooter than Ben and still relevant in Nationals even at his age) has been big on gripping the gun 100% with both hands. At some point we have to agree it's personal preference when guys who are better than Ben are out there smoking it with different techniques. Wait until you find out about the greatest shooter who ever lived (Eric Grauffel's) grip lol. He uses a push and pull with his back and chest muscles to hold the gun in place 😂
@@paddypibblet846 no reason for personal attacks bud. I’m saying the timing of all this talk on Ben’s channel coincides with the video I referenced earlier. I get that differences in grip technique have been discussed for decades and that lots of comp shooters espouse different ideas regarding how hard to grip the gun etc. If you think all the comments on Ben’s videos regarding grip strength starting right after the Hunter Constantine video dropped is a coincidence, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
It's much older. But not all for the same reasons. Like TPC from late Ron Avery taught grip strength improvement too, but at some level as grip strength stamina, to need less effort to get the same grip and how to use it along a day of competition, having reserves.
I'm a pretty small dude, not great grip strength. Only time I've really wanted to work on my grip strength, outside of what I normally do in the gym, to help with shooting was when I switched to shooting revolver (I know I'm a weirdo around here by saying that). And really, that's to make up for my shitty trigger pull. If I can hold the gun firmer then I can get away with a worse trigger pull, and if my fingers are stronger then a heavy DA pull isn't as bad. Really though, just practicing with that gun has made me better.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ben. May I ask? How many hours a day/week do you practice? How much practice focused on fundamentals (as opposed to shooting for fun) do you recommend?
What I have noticed myself is I definitely have much better Trigger Discipline when I loosen my firing hand grip but then the gun doesn't feel comfortable in my hands. so for me it's a balance of gripping strong enough to feel in control without over gripping. I have a very bad "flinch" at times and I envy the guys who seem to have it figured out. Just for reference I'm an M class co shooter
The flinch can visit again. Mine was noise based. You get better to diagnose issues, you stop the current plan and run through the fix protocol. I learned a lot of building processes of static competition. Just like Ben mentioned, there are a lot that just maintain and don't grow. Same here but there are performance groups that really push each other and that has aspects that carry over.
@@mariosmith8456 For some it is visual from flash, for a lot it is the noise. I shot a lot in halls and some within a mountain. Doubling up helps when I catch myself with it and watching others shoot. Being aware of it, the brain files it under current ok background noise. Usually when I couldn't be at the range over things like maintenance or holidays. Outside is easier. For some it's mentally based. The idea of the shot going off, anticipation and the response. Saw one with a hunter, glad it was talked about. Here it is a lot of classes, training and money invested. After a bad shot, injuring the animal the pressure to do right by it caused a lot of pressure and shooting triggered it, reliving that moment. In that case, there was big improvement teaching to shoot a shot and let go of all tension and taking the rifle from them, as if all that goes away like progressive muscle relaxation.
I like to do my weightlifting before my dryfire practice. When I go to the range without lifting before I notice my grip is very secure without thinking about it.
Talk about hurting yourself... I have noticed in my dry fire, I will totally overgrip and tweak my hand, but I never do that when in live fire practice.... its always based on what I am seeing in terms of the gun moving or dot or results on target and the grip is never so much it hurts me.
Do you ever do clinics for layman folks? Not a beginner but not a competitive shooter either. Was just curious as it seems you a lot of leo and military.
I watched Ben use one of the medical grip dynamometers this summer. I put 50 lb more force on the gauge than him and shoot like I have 50 less IQ points
Once you stop coping about grip, it's all about trigger press. Can we start talking about that? I'm struggling to find consistency with trigger press. Is it because I'm still inconsistent with my grip? 😂
Having developed a grip I feel comfortable with and gives me good connection based on your concepts, I found it very frustrating to go take a class and have the instructor interrupt me before each shot to direct my thumb to go here and to cant my wrist more like that etc. all before even watching me shoot
My wife shoots better then most especially accuracy wise and I sometimes have to tune her guns because of her limp wristing and causing malfunctions if shooting at a weird angle or if she’s not completely concentrating. Yeah because my grip is better then hers I can shoot follow up shots faster but especially for accuracy I usually have to loosen my grip abit to make sure I’m not pushing those further shots. So for the most part grip strength isn’t the be all end all.
Dead lifts are NOT the best to improve grip strength. Buy blue Fat Gripz, put them on a pull up bar, and do pull ups. Simple. This however, is not going to drastically affect your shooting skills.
You don't need to exercise to improve your grip strength, you only need to eat spinach and smoke a corncob pipe like Popeye. Have you seen his forearms?
My 2011 just started locking back for no reason. It slide locks while shooting. I videoed this to prove to myself that I’m not touching the slide and I’m not touching the slide lock lever. Any help I’ll appreciate!!! Thanks!!
I've been working my grip strength quite a bit lately, just because i can do it while driving, and i drive for a living. I've noticed some results to an extent, but if you think any time at all taken from dry fire for this is a good idea, you're braindead.
Ive got arthritis now, and in the past i shot with a crushing grip and lots of tension from my hands to my shoulders. Ive been trying your more passive style, but the gun seems to flip and recoil more. Group sizes are about the same, but splits have gone from .16 to .2 i just dont seem to be getting the gun to return to point of aim. When i shoot with lots of tension the gun comes back to point of aim. WTF am i doing wrong?
Stronger hands = tighter groups. With ANY method you will develop greater strength in your hands. In Ben's method grip becomes a fine motor skill. In Robert Vogel's approach your hands become a vise, in which only a fraction of overall strength is needed to stabilize the pistol, and is a gross motor skill. I use grippers and my groups and doubles improved, six of one, half a dozen of the other.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-I44ZZf8AZqI.htmlsi=Dn9yux1n8VtxG1VJ this video of Bob Vogel, not really teaching much other than explaining that “grip pressures” on certain points the gun are key. This mapped over Ben’s idea of relying on predictability and repeatability of where your dot/sights land after recoil really made things click for me. Now if I can just shoot 1 meeellion rounds a year.
Rob Vogel can close #3 captains of crush and his 70% makes the most logical sense. Rob Lathem would refer to the grip as to gripping it hard enough to feel like you are squeezing oil out of it. To say grip doesn't matter is smooth brain thinking. To also not work on grip strength because people with low IQ's overtrain and injure themselves is a bizarre concept.
