@@coreywhite6409 I'm sure if they could find a way to balance double shield the game could've stayed 6v6, but like super said in the video, not balancing your game for two and a half years at the peak of double shield meta really makes people hate duo tanks
To be fair, the games main issue isn’t format, it’s bad balance. 6v6, 5v5, 4v4, doesn’t matter because team 4 has no clue what they’re doing regardless of format.
That's bc balance isn't easy and ppl have different things they consider balanced to be, as such saying just balance it is completely idiotic as a take. But also to be clear the balance is relatively ok when looking objectively in the sense that every player no matter the role can have a big and meaningful impact on the game. Supports are a bit too powerful in having great self sustain, dmg, and large healing numbers, while also having strong interactions all at once but that's moreso just bap and kiri. You also don't want to make supports super easy to kill so giving them escapes is necessary. But tanks dps and support all have a strong impact on the game but ppl who play a role will always complain theirs us too weak and another js too strong. I agree with them that mostly things have been relatively balanced save for the outlier heroes but ppl remember the outlier heroes such as phara/junk/kiri/mauga and then incorrectly blow that out to the role as a whole. I am excited for the tests though I just hope they don't choose to swap to 6 completely and not let ppl play 5
people always underestimate how many low spec gamers there are and overestimate how many 4k 240hz pc master races freaks there are, and underestimate how many people just want to play the game and not care about none of that pc specs shit and just want it to run "well enough"
If you can’t run a game over 12 fps then you shouldn’t be playing the game in the first place, most people are in the middle and run the game around 60fps consistently. Very few people run the game on the pc equivalent to a toaster oven
@@AdamSlander888the optimization mentioned in the article is definitely geared toward console playes- specially last gen and switch. The game already doesn’t run amazingly on those platforms and adding 2 extra players would indeed rank performance.
6v6 needs to comeback. 5v5 has just felt so lifeless. I went from not being able to put down overwatch 1 from beta to its final day. Now I can barely play 3/4 matches of ow2 before getting bored.
I love the gaslighting that’s been going on here. They’re really trying to convince us that what we had all along were format issues rather than balance and design issues. They’re really trying to say that 6v6 was inherently problematic, but leaving the game to die on a terrible patch was not the actual problem. If they kept updating the game, adding content and balancing the game, 5v5 as an idea would never have received any consideration. Nobody even asked for it to begin with.
The problem is tanks. 6v6 just made certain things worse and 5v5 makes certain things worse. How you going to say it's gaslighting when they are just giving facts about each format and saying they agree 6v6 should be tested
@@mgomberg98 Ah, yes, like occasionally giving people a loot box, or mindlessly giving away priority passes where DPS players would just play hog or Dva and didn’t need to care about winning because they’d get the pass anyways. Their “fixes” were always attempts to find a shortcut to a solution. Even now that continues. They’d rather find a shortcut around a problem than address the actual issue.
people will complain but me and many others complained far less when 6v6 had bearable balance. sure it was bad at times but for issues that were easily fixed. how do you make tank fun in 5v5..? there is no clear answer here. you would need to completely remake the game or fundamentally change something. for example, if every tank had smaller hitboxes i think tank would be considerably more bearable. you lower health values and maybe chamge some other stuff, but basically its slightly harder to shoot all tanks. this isnt the solution obviously, just one idea but it would require so much work.
The PC min specs were bumped up for OW2 so they get around that. I think they are waiting on the Switch 2 which is rumoured to be about PS4 level of power.
@@geeezalex756I don't think this is a valid counter-argument. What about the players that were too young to save money? What about the players that have been down on their luck and haven't had enough money to spare for good parts, let alone a PC? A game shouldn't focus on making a game look good over making it playable for lower specs players, it makes the game as pay to win as it can get
@@geeezalex756this might surprise you but some people simply do not gaf about upgrading whatsoever unless they absolutely need to. many, many casual players play on pc too
I'd argue that losing Jeff Kaplan started the storm. Look at what OW2 was BEFORE he left (OW2 was a Paid PvE expansion that would run simultaneously with OW1, pro-6v6, anti-paywall heroes) to when he left (Instant cancellation of PvE but failed to tell us until a year later, immediate swap to 5v5 without playtesting outside of pro, paywall/play to win characters). I'd add in the loss of most of the original team as well.
If anything 5v5 not only makes the game less fun for tank players, but for dps players, particularly hitscans, as well. In overwatch 1 the tanks could make space with eachother and one (typically the off tank) could pull back and peel if needed while the main tank continued making space. Or at least holding it. Now as a tank player you basically have to just decide whether you want to peel or put pressure on them, and when you aren’t peeling, the game is just unfun for your dps players. When you aren’t making space, the game literally doesn’t go anywhere. It’s just a sloppy gameplay loop and it’s rare I actually have fun playing this game anymore. Went from having 100+ hours every season 4400 consistent to playing maybe 20 games on a good season and peaking high masters because of the utter lack of drive this game has as a tank player
I was never a 4.4 player hovered 4.1-4.2 when I played actively. I have the same feelings as you. DPS feels Shit to me in this game because it feels like I can only make plays on other dps consistently. So many things to bail out misplays makes punishing tanks way harder than OW1. My main thing though is a game a loved all through high school and college I don’t play anymore like at all. I have like maybe 100 comp games total since season 8 of overwatch 2. Games just lost the thing that made it special for me
Man idk what you smoking. You don't remember dva permanently on your cheeks when try to ult as solider or getting chased by a bubbled Winston while you hope you get peel? Or hog oneshot? DPS was practically cosmetic in some metas and always relied a lot on tanks saving you from the enemy tanks. In OW2 you can at least get around the map to shoot things as DPS. Tank synergies are more fun but for DPS? No way that was more fun than being able to actually kill something (at least when bap and kir aren't busted)
@@3fleurarcade mode or alternative queue like open queue. Or if you think it would siphon off players that significantly, that’s just player preference.
they're completely disregarding the fact that ow2 is 'free' and has more players now and the fact that having one tank is ALSO shit for every player's mental. no fucking wonder no one wants to queue as tank - they're huffing that fucking copium so fucking hard.
@@blazing910 lmao that's ur opinion i guess. i was fine queuing for all roles when it was double tank bc i could off tank and help my supports more and it was less reliant on me. now i refuse to. ✌
@@blazing910just not true lol I can say of all the ow hardcore fans that left the game majority of them were tank players and it’s for a good reason. Role is just miserable and before you actually played as a team when you were tank
Bro blizzard acting like 6v6 failing wasn't their fault for not updating the game and TRYING THINGS Also them saying they don't want to upset people who like the game now...what about overwatch 1? I liked 6v6 but they deleted that game forcing me into the new one
Just need 7v7 at this point. Introduce a coach role, 1 for each team. They are allowed to mute players, apply 1 minute timeouts - 3 per game, and apply character bans at the start of the match.
Lol insane but kinda cooking. Swear peoples mental too weak and need full time VC babysitting. Though I need people with 1lvl endorsement to never be picked, they always racist and toxic
@@Jmt1000XDhe didn’t, the original team was, likely jeff kaplan, and aaron had to deal with aftermath. he probably had some say in it but he wasnt even the lead director back then
When they think that ow2’s really bad games weren’t close to ow1’s bad games: Mauga meta; they literally made every games the worst game ever and that’s an achievement
Ow2 feels way worse because now it feels even more like one bad player solo loses the game. Often that is the tank which makes the role even more miserable. Truly don’t understand how anyone could think 5v5 is more fun than 6v6 ever was
I’ve seen people go to the 30 minute queue times on average in the game currently, granted this person was going for rank 1 on all roles but 30 minute queues with unbalanced matchmaking is insane
@@dylannewsom6414 Except that was just not true. There was less damage, there were way more teamwork involved and so much more peel and defensive things like shields etc. Surviving longer felt rewarding because you and your team played well. Like, I was a Lucio one trick and the synergy between Lucio and peel tanks as well as brawl was one of the most fun parts of overwatch. Now there’s not much synergies between tanks and supports besides sit back and heal bot. Like, Lucio is not even allowed to do damage anymore 😭
My conspiracy is that queue times are reduced because matchmaking has gotten way less strict. Unbalanced matches are SOO common now, and the fact that they still won’t show individual ranks AND it took them almost a year into the game to even just show lobby rank spread makes it seems more likely. They dumbed down matchmaking to shorted queue times and hid ranks so it wouldn’t be so obvious.
No need to come up with conspiracy theories if you understand math and how 2 tanks multiplied by millions of games is quite a high number. Millions of less people to sort, making finding games way faster. But math and thoughts are hard.
The Low Lows being way worse overall than how good the High Highs were is absolutely true for 95%+ of players. Super played at the very Top level so people communicated and coordinated 10x more than they even did in Diamond, so he doesn't know this. During OW1 6v6, in metal ranks about 20-25% of games were straight up 0-1/10, while the upside was that you'd get 1/15 games as a 10/10. Now the 0-1/10 games are much more infrequent, down to like 1-2%, while the 10/10 games are like 1/25. So there are much less Low Lows and less High Highs as well.
I agree that the low lows were way worse but the high highs were what kept me addicted. As a tank player those games where I worked well with my other tank and the enemy team didn't suck were so much fun to the point where I was willing to wait for semi competent teammates. I played ow2 only in season 1 so maybe it changed but I found that the high highs were just not as fun. I love having an amazing game where I dominate but it still felt like the best games were missing a dimension that took them to the next level. I think dps had that to a somewhat lesser extent sometimes where I would work well together with my other dps and split attention but it didn't feel the same.
From my experience most games have been complete rolls 8/10 times, either losses or wins, i have a sneaking suspension that stating ones own experience on the matter isnt really indicative of actual data. And im not talking down to you but usually someone of metal ranks tends not to even understand whats going on enough to dictate what was a good game or not.
Ive played in every rank across both games i can tell you that low ranks cant tell good players unless they are headshotting. So they probably cant tell what a good game of ow actually looks like.
@@nukenuke4286 High Highs can make a player play more but every person only has so much free time to play at the end of the day. You might end up playing 3 hours instead of 2, 5 instead of 3. But Low lows on the other hand can cause players to rage quit a session entirely, take long breaks from the game, or just straight up quit permanently. You'll see game devs almost always choose to eliminate/reduce Low Lows over preserving High Highs if they are in a situation where the have to make a trade off. I've seen devs cite this reasoning multiple times over the years in different GaaS games spanning different genres. A card game deck which might be really fun on one end and really shit on another will always get nerfed even if it doesn't have a high win rate, because eliminating the shitty experience on the other end is more important to retain players than preserving the great experience on the first end.
@@gigachiggastfu you 6v6ers are a symptom that ow players don't know what they want and are a huge part of the problem. Regressing overwatch design and not seeing that them adding dmg role dps levels to a tank like mauga with hardly any skill expression and sustain that is aids like roadhog or how it's impossible to take away two shields being on the same team given how there's 4 tanks that can have shields (rein, zarya, sigma, winston, and to an extent ramatra)
i feel like the main problem with 5v5 is that tank is just not fun for a lot of people, 6v6 is generally just more fun which should be priority in a video game
Its crazy how they mention que times over and over in the blog, yet they stated that the shift to 5v5 had nothing to do with que times, this clearly shows that the devs does not know what they are doing, but that isnt something new
I miss having actual off-tanks doing off-tank things. If they would’ve updated the game as frequently as they do now with nerfs and buffs 5v5 I think wouldn’t exist
I feel like the biggest reason why dps queue times are so much larger than the other roles is because dps has so many heroes, its the most varied role by far with the largest range of playstyles. Once the other roles get close to the size of dps, i think that the queue time problems would be somewhat alleviated by people playing other roles more
Also true only tank that super interested me consistently as a dps in OW was zarya. Queen and doom might be my two favorite heroes in the game though I would love to play them in 6v6
I think thats the second reason. The biggest to me is that people view it as the leader role and dont want to lead. Idk if dps is that much varied over tank and really dont know what other playstyles can be added to tank.
people dont point out a very obvious flaw for ow1 and thats the fact that more than HALF the roster of playable characters are dps. which is infamously the most popular role in any video game that has a tank/dps/supp type system. if the game actually made more tanks and supports, this wouldn’t be an issue. they already reworked doom, they could have reworked more heroes and added some extra ones. this would dramatically help the queue times. add more variety, maybe people want more options for particular metas or playstyles. having those options will make it so people wont get bored of the role. we have more variety now so i genuinely think tank queues will be not as bad. we also have supports that could somewhat lessen the shitty experience of playing tank (although the reverse can be said too). role lock was definitely what destroyed the game. why they moved on to extremely drastic measures TWICE is something i dont understand. they are so incompetent that they couldn’t figure out to fix the game so they just fuck it up completely in hopes it would work out
Role Lock being the main comp mode is kinda what killed the game. Some brainlet will be like B-b-but Goats! Triple Shields!. Guess what chuckleheads. The whole queue time problem is from Role Lock and it has been a domino effect ever since Role Lock. It's real simple man. Just make soft role lock or something. Like a system that lets you pick all 5/6 dps but if you choose a standard role selection like 1 tank, 2 dps, 2 support. You get the role passives.
I really like this suggestion. This would allow for alot of creativity to come back into the game when making team comps by intentionally making your team weaker for counter swaps.
I'm one of the few people with no real opinion or preference in 5v5 vs 6v6 but tanks in 5v5 are either garbage or raid bosses and that's clearly something they haven't been able to balance so whatever works
Hindsight is 2020 and its much easier to criticize past decisions made then to be the ones making them for the first time. The overwatch devs have an intentionally a creative and reactive development style - not systematic and as players its nice to see them stumbling forwards in the right direction.
how to fix 5v5: buff all the supports, nerf all the tanks, then change the team lineup tp Tank/Tank/DPS/DPS/Support, boom game is fun again, all the OP support abilites still get to be cool and fun but now theres only one of those freaks. Plus tank synergies = Fun
Overwatch 2: games boring and same-y, hit your shots to win Overwatch 1: games ridiculous but entertaining, use all your abilities perfectly and still lose
they stopped adding new heroes and released very few balance patches for the last two years of ow1. imagine if we had 3-4 patches every two months with new hero additions in 6v6. also, they could've just fucking reworked sigma without a shield since he was enabling double shield comps that were actually valid in the ranks where people have brains
Regarding the switch, and I'll keep this short, even though Nintendo has a new system on the way, Overwatch probably should just make a lite version of the game for it. Hell, could be lite enough even for mobile, can you imagine the greed. Besides, each Splatoon entry, even Splatoon 1 on the WiiU probably has a better playerbase than Overwatch Switch. But there is still the concern about people who are still on PS4 and XB1. I wonder what this kinda change is gonna be like for those.
Crazy how they dont mention the radio silence or the nightmare balancing decisions. was 6v6 the problem or was it that bap got 8 buffs in a row after being OP after the 2nd one. Casually leaving out brig on release and like 7 seasons after is convenient. 5v5 was only done because ow2 was a let down and they needed it so they can have an excuse for a new game
It seems like the Devs tends to think us like supports behind Rein's shield and "Oh, we should defend the community", but no, we don't need that. Please just make a fun, interesting and exciting game. Ultimately, if we feel unfair or whatever, the result "player number's decrease" will be shown up. Devs, don't be scared. 5v5/6v6, Role/Open Queue, everything's fine till you think these are good for the game.
woah its almost like when a role is less fun less people will play it, the role should not have sun crazy fun volatility. dps players are never going to swap if tank is boring and unplayable in like 30% minimum of games
as if the low lows were inherent to the game and not entirely their (not THEIR but the old dev team ig) fault YOU MADE THE GAME THAT WAY IT WASNT LIKE THAT BEFORE ITS YOUR FAULT NOT THE GAMES ITSELF
You are half right. The game runs fine in 6v6 custom lobby for me but the game does crash randomly cuz its struggles to keep 12 people connected for some reason
@@derktheturk yeah i dont think the switch could even run 6v6 if they even wanted to. Theyd have to like discontinue the game on the switch which is prolly a huge headache for the company. Maybe theyll find a way for the switch to run 6v6.
@@quight4076thats exactly what they’re doing, they can probably do it imo. fortnite can run on the switch, they just have to change it works specifically on the switch which would take a lot of work. the switch can run it
I love when they say they have 10s of millions new concurrent players acting as if their concurrent actual playerbase is closer to 19k between Console and PC their “Millions of players” is majority just fresh accounts being made from older players or people who try the game bc it’s free and then never touch it after a few games.
Nah, y'all dps need to play tank so that the queue time is shorter if you want 6v6. Few want to play tank even in 5v5. Put another tank and you have additional queue time. And you add the balancing issues that will continue to persist even in 6v6, y'all will be wishing for 5v5 again. Haha
Give us 6v6 with 2 tanks but have it separated into shield tank// off tank. Like how they used to have offensive and defensive DPS. But this time actually lock the entire sub-role if the other person on your team picks it first Someone towards the end said 7v7 and i could NOT agree more. 3-2-2.
Not needed since shields have been reworked and it would also kill a lot of fun comps synergies. For example Dva could be main and off tank. Ex, monkey dva, dva doom or something like this. I think the creativity and fun synergies are needed to actually make tank fun and people to play it 😭
@tapewoerm you're right, it would kill a lot of fun strategies. But it would also bring back the possibility of tank synergies, while also preventing "problematic" tank combos. I just think it would be an easier thing to balance from a Dev pov. My dreams of old 6v6 are dead, I'm hoping for scraps here.
be overwatch devs dont update ow1 for however long announces ow2 promises pve and abunch of other things ow2 releases 5v5 is now 1 overtuned tank and 4 ow1 characters pve canceled and story mode got like 2 chapters and never touched again ow2 is now ow1 but with more microtransactions
