Qualcomm never outdoes the apples A series chips on their phones and they've had some generations of overheating/inefficient chips (810 & 8 gen 1), poor performance on the snapdragon s3 I would never trust Qualcomm for my computing needs.
So nice that you have great youtube videos since your website is literally unreadable now. Checked the verge 1-2 times a day for years. The new design is so terrible I switched new sources. What are you guys thinking approving that?? How is that the same company that made this beautiful youtube video
I wonder why Microsoft’s emulation layer for x64/86 apps on arm is so bad while Apple somehow managed to run these apps on arm without a noticeable performance impact.
Apple is really good with hardware and software integration because they control the OS _and_ the chip design. Plus, Apple Silicon is simply faster in the first place.
From what I remember, the performance of emulation on M1 via Rosetta 2 is fast as the translation occurs ahead of runtime (I think when you install the app) so when you do come to run it, its simply executing Arm instructions. I think the chips themselves also have additional instructions that can accelerate some x86 calls and handle memory in a more applicable way. It's the biggest advantage apple have at the minute - the integration of a complete hardware and software stack that no one else can really replicate
Because Apple didn't emulate per-se, it translates at 'compile time' (i.e only runs once). Microsoft emulates at runtime (runs all the time while the app is open).
I have recently purchased the Pro 8 and honestly cannot see myself returning to a clamshell device. Microsoft has really perfected this form factor; it's so darn practical and portable.
I usually get around 6h of normal use. Because I work, sometimes I have to power two additional screens from the usb-c ports, and then it falls to 1:30hs, but it's running two additional 1080p monitors @@theyoutubeaccount8499
Definitely one of the better reviews... very thoughtful. I upgraded from my Pro X (SQ2) to the Pro 9 5G (SQ3) and have had zero issues. (In other words, I don't use Chrome, use ARM builds of apps, and run Slack as a PWA.) It's an awesome machine, if you're able to live within its constraints.
Why did you upgrade btw? Do you find x86 apps run any faster? The emulation issue is real but equally not anywhere near as bad as these reviews make out. I'd hope to see an improvement still.
@@bradavon I had the "upgrade" itch :) I can say that the native Slack app does run faster under SQ3, but still too slow to actually use... I tried for a day then moved to the web app. (I fault Slack, not MS for this!)
I think the problem is that a lot of businesses who buy Surface Pros run apps which aren't ARM native. We give out Surface Pros to our field staff and the software they use for things like GIS, specialty documentation, etc are all x86 based (32 or 64 bit). Having huge performance hits is unacceptable to us, and certainly not worth the increased cost of the ARM model. Apple did the translation nearly flawlessly, but by all accounts, Microsoft, years after releasing their first ARM computer, still seriously struggles with this.
This was a very nicely done video, perfect narrated and a very good review. I only mighty missed if there is any battery life spam difference between the Intel and the ARM Surfaces. Nonetheless, what a great video. Love the Becky photo bomb at the end
Very interesting. Running ARM Windows via Parallels on an M2 Chip and I don't see any notable slowdown at all with Windows x86 apps. (In fact, most cases the same apps run faster than my i9 2.4 Ghz Intel laptop) I'd say Qualcom is still producing slow processors for Microsoft. 😞 Great review though. Very much appreciated it.
The SQ3 is still too far behind the M1/M2. The MaxTech benchmarks had the M2 Air absolutely crushing the SQ3-based SP9 in every category, even price. Even the intel versions couldn't keep pace with the M2, and cost more. You know you have a problem when Apple is not only faster, but cheaper.
Depends what you use your laptop for, coding in Visual Studio, running Edge (which is Chromium based), github desktop, Azure data studio, Teams, zoom, etc are all ARM64 already and work great and the batter life is amazing finally on a windows laptop...
I'm thinking about getting the Pro 9, i7 with 16gb of ram. I have never owned a Surface before. But, I have heard nothing but great things about it, from people who own a Surface.
Get it (intel version) if you want real computing and do-it-all device...there's nothing out there close to windows tablets... (Own the Surface pro and an iPad).
Most portable devices I've used that also have a dGPU and beefy CPU is the Asus Zephyrus G14 or Razer Blade 13. Decent battery life, good graphics and CPU, and just about as portable as an ultrabook. No webcam may be a deal breaker one the Asus though. They've come down in price a lot for the 2020\2021 models and are a great option for dedicated graphics needs on the go.
its a great decision you made cause no matter how future proof m1 and m2 are theyre only supported about 6 ios updates after that app devs would require newer ios and some of your major apps wont work anymore. compared to windows laptops or 2n1 they would run longer and be supported after 10yrs
If they had put a thunderbolt port on this thing and allowed it to hook up to an external gpu for games and such this would be the PERFECT tablet for me. I'm looking for a tablet that has cellular service and can play games.
You just got yourself a new subscriber! Awesome review. Would have love some info about palm rejection, but still a very good review!! Keep up the good work!
Seems like the ARM chip in SQ3 is on the same order of speed as the Intel chip, but that emulation for non-native ARM apps slows things down dramatically. With the upcoming Snapdragon X Elite, maybe ARM native apps will run better than x86 apps on Intel (better performance and efficiency). If so, hopefully popular apps port over quickly.
very well done. I am a retired IT guy. This was technical enough to keep me interested and also in easy to understand language. we need more people like you to educate us on products
Eye contact should only work when you look at the screen and it makes it look like you're looking at the camera. It shouldn't work when you look all over the place, that would be weird if it did!
DAMN those geekbench scores are depressing, even for the intel… I know numbers are not everything but the single score performance is a good indicator of how smooth everyday tasks run, and 1100 is lower then the iphone 11’s chip.. How is Microsoft such a big company yet it can’t even begin to compete with macbooks while being the same price?
MS is seemingly in bed with Intel and that means they cannot tread on their toes. So price it high. Once, if ever, Intel make their own WOA chips, then we will see cheaper pricing, but ATM pricing ARM 30% higher means that they do not upset Intel.
Verge, really. You're largely basing your review of the SQ3 model on running Chrome or Slack (neither of which I run!)? Frankly, I love my Surface ProX with its SQ1. It has all the power I need for my work (I don't game), and its battery life is unbelievable in a very thin case and virtually no screen bezels. This SQ3 pad is sure to be faster with the more complete Surface architecture. It's received very positive BUY reviews from PCWord, Oztabletpc, Windows Central, and others. If you don't like it, buy something else. But your review is biased.
Something is wrong with Microsoft. ChromeOS and MacOS can use ARM without so much fuss. Microsoft have been doing this for 8 freaking years since the RT, and still can't get it right.
They could have simply introduced MS SQ3 to the world in a cheaper device, one that everyone would want. Even if it sold at a loss. Becasue this idea is great but i cannot really afford it as a student since I am looking for a Mac alternative. If everyone decides to shift, everyone would make the jump to ARM than X86 processors atleast for the mobile deivces and related workflows. Since the conventional desktop isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
The whole point of Surface is to set a benchmark, both technically and price wise, that other OEM's can then also step into. If they set a cheap price for Pro 9 with ARM, it sets a benchmark for all future ARM machines. Just my two cents on what they were thinking. Not saying I fully agree
Pretty happy with my Surface Pro 8 with LTE. Would it be nice to have 5G? Sure, but not at the expense of Intel. Would it be nice to have 12th Gen? Sure, but not at the expense of cellular.
I have had the 5G model for a couple months now. It's spectacular. I did add a Brydge keyboard that allows it to open and close like a traditional laptop form factor and upgraded the SDD to 2tb, but I don't think I'll ever go back to a traditional laptop.
Here's the thing. Despite all the AI/Neural engine stuff, the SQ3 lacks seriously in computing power, and that is a big factor while buying a computer.
I HATE they removed the headphone jack on the Pro 9. I think the pro 8 is a better value right now for still being great with speed, has a headphone jack, and better battery life.
Why do people still care its a jack that can only do 1 thing and it does a terrible job at it Use the usbc headphone or Bluetooth and you will never look back
The only reason Windows on ARM failed wheres MacOS might succeed is because of options. Apple just took away the option. Made their own devices obsolete(even pro devices) and devs had to rush for native support or they might loose market share if a competitor does it faster or better. But what I don't understand is why haven't all the cross platform apps that have native versions for Arm Macs not ported to Windows. And if they are why doesn't anyone talk about it.
The answer is the customers...Apple sells mainly to consumers whilst MS to enterprises...enterprises come with laywers and contracts....good luck abandoing all the investments they put into your eco-system with all the lawsuits and whatnot
Even emulated apps run smoothly on apple silicon, so it's not just that devs had to adapt. The reason windows on ARM doesn't work is the same as why Android phones aren't as power efficient or why windows hasn't had a perfect run with any version in forever. These companies just aren't paying enough attention in integrating the software and hardware better. Windows 11 is more power hungry than any version that has come before it that too without adding enough new features. And even though Qualcomm makes chips mostly for Android phones they haven't worked hard enough to make it as optimized as apples chips are for iphones. It's disappointing but i doubt things will get any better for years to come.
@@KhoaNguyen-sy6np yet they're selling a premium device that doesn't justify it's cost. If they are not close enough to making it work they should seriously start putting these chips in cheaper devices.
@@MayankKumar-ch8pq Unfortunately, that's not up to Microsoft. They can't tell Qualcomm to make the SQ3 (really just a renamed and overclocked 8cx Gen 3) any cheaper. Qualcomm charges a lot for subpar silicon; Microsoft has to pass that cost on to consumers or skip ARM altogether.
I just bought a surface 8. Same design, a headphone jack still available, better autonomy than the new one (at least for my i5 model). Except for new colors, the new Intel version just look like a downgrade for me.
Whats everyone's obsession with mmwave? Midband 5g is more than adequate for most tasks (assuming youre not dealing with insane network traffic). And why cant Intel just make their own cellular solution????
5g can never be a redeeming factor of any laptop as we all carry smartphones and as for the device it's an increadible versatile device likes of which have never been seen before, i am talking about intel model
When reviewing Windows on ARM reviewers should mention switching to Edge IS painless and isn't "part of Microsoft's ecosystem (which 365) anyway. As others mentioned why didn't you test the Slack PWA? PWAs are apps.
I like the Microsoft Pro, but how they can justify $448 to replace a $10 battery by a premium week turn around service then get "lost" (stolen) for two months and then give a three month extended warranty as compensation. The hardest part to swallow is I rarely used it unplugged.
Yes, the Windows mob hated on the M2 MB Air that is $1200 for 8GB/256GB and is far better in every metric than this ARM SP9. The SP9 (ARM) has less storage and you need to spend another $180 for the keyboard and $100 extra to get 256GB. So >30% higher for the tablet abilities, and let us be honest, Windows Tablets are not great. Outside the US, due to the exchange rate, the prices are even higher. MS just going through the motions and I can understand that with the dire forecasts of recession, inflation and freefalling sales.
But… this device is really a tablet that operates as a desktop in one, so if you add the price of an iPad to the M2 MB Air as well, plus the iPad accessories, you’d get closer prices.
People hated in the M2 MacBook Air because its a rip off and Apple did the Apple thing by bumping the price and keeping an old model around for the price the M2 should be. That's why people hated on it. Not the actual product.
Intel processors generate way too much heat and are very energy inefficient compared to ARM based processors. A tablet that you are comfortable holding in your hand must take this into consideration, which is why the SQ3 shines.
I think the thing that sums up the surfaces problem is that it’s easy to find a review of the iPad Pro where the keyboard isn’t used because it’s a good tablet that turns in to an ok laptop the surface is a bad tablet that turns in to an okay laptop
Intel version easily! Performance matters. Good for those who work in business intelligence, data analysts, and traveling sales reps/consultants. Also, good for traveling college finance/ majors. Super lightweight taking on the airline.
Great review. Saw no palm-lean instances in the video. Palm rejection diagnosis? Also, seems like a lot of feature “fails” on each. Maybe, buy both to get full usability?😅
OK I have no issues with emulation I did have issues with print drivers. I use HP mobile printers for my business. Had to send this thing back because HP does not support arm chipsets yet.
Just saying hi from Fedora Asahi Remix running on an M1 Mac mini. Apple has done desktop ARM CPUs right. I would like to see the rest of the industry catch up.
The Intel chip, you are not getting 8 hours battery life. Not if you're actually using the thing. I noticed you said closer to 6-8 hours though. Meaning the actual 4 you're getting, is closer to 6 than it is to 15.5 they advertise. You should tell the truth as a reviewer.
Why boring intel chips, while core i5 1235U and core i7 1255U are very excellent for laptops, These chips are so power efficient than other 64x models, these chips are sufficient for every tasks expect heavy games or heavy video rendering . We should wait for x elite chipsets (Qualcomm)and lake shore chipset of intel combat
And yet Apple still can't fix window management on MacOS. They keep adding more ways to manage apps and windows and it's still better on Windows. It's a mess of different features on MacOS. Why can't I see all the windows just by clicking on the icon on the dock? Forgot all this Stage Manager bloat that's just further added complication.
Thanks for the info. Christmas's is on the corner, and my two kids (college students), one studying mechanic engineer and the other Physics and Programming. Both asked for one portable device (other than a laptop) to work their stuff in college courses. I am between Surface Pro 9 (i believe that maybe the I7 model will work better) and the IPAD PRO 12.9 with the M2 Chip. Can you give me some real answer of which is better? I am not a Apple fan, i fell vey limited (like being on a prison) in IOS, at least for my taste in software. But if the IPAD is better that will be the one to buy. One thing that i like of the surface is that i can buy the I7 with the smaller ssd and for maybe $150 change it for a 2Tb , the other thing of about Microsoft software and apps regular use. In the case of the IPAD there are multiple reviews about how it works better using a poncil and display quality. But most of this reviews came from Apple cult customer, so maybe they are a bit based on emotions. So can you help me decide?
The SQ3 version doesnt have a fan which makes it truly silent compared to the Intel version (not that it is super loud but it is nowhere near silent), also for media consumption I think the SQ3 is more worthy even though it is usually more expensive, but yeah SQ3 performance is not that great maybe the SQ4 or whatever it could be called, have better performance and probably compatibility. Good comparison btw!
They made ARM compatible versions for their software, but since the performance is not good enough they don't make a compelling case for other devs to do it.
comparing (emulated) x64 vs (raw) arm64 performance, hm? there is arm64 Chromium instead of Chrome (if You hate to use Arm64 Edge, although using the same engine)
Hi there Verge, mad respect from India, here the i5 and the i7 models are separated by a whopping premium of $500, although I am not a very power hungry user, or a content creator, just a researcher....still when I do research, I can have in excess of 20 tabs open and a few excel, word and Pdfs open... I have an Xbox and hence gaming is not a need at all with this device....I still rock a MacBook Pro i5 8th Gen with Touch Bar, which seems to be failing on me anytime soon, it has gotten sluggish especially after the latest Ventura Update, I am done with Macs and I always wanted a surface for the longest time I remember.....although getting an M1 or an M2 makes a lot of sense, I am asking you honestly, If I were to switch to a Surface, would this be a good year to do so...? I am eyeing the i5 12th intel model with the keyboard and pen that costs roughly $1800....Please Advise!
Just got my surface pro 9.....looking back at where it all started....what a leap we have made in 10 years....cheers...oh and I got this exact forest green with colour matched type cover and slim pen 2 bundle
So... Anyone used Lightroom on the non-Intel version? I assume it would be borderline unusable - just wondering if anyone has real-world experience with it.
