Sword Fantasy Vs Fencing Reality: Suspension of Disbelief  

"Killed you so fast, death got a 20% pay reduction for being so goddamn late."

Imagine walking down the street and seeing two people dueling it out with swords

Princess Bride has the best example. Inigo and the Man in Black have this elaborate, over the top scene with them one-upping each other all over the terrain. Then during the rescue Inigo takes out several guards with the absolute minimum of movements while never taking his eyes off his real target. One long fantasy fight for the audience, one short realistic fight for vengeance.

I think the most common thing in fantasy sword fights is super strong legs. Dashes, high jumps, dodges, etc Almost all moves shows us that the main power in fantasy sword fights are thicc legs.

That Romeo and Juliet reenactment was awesome!

One thing that can make realistic duels last longer: have the characters engage in quick exchanges, separated by pauses where the fencers are out of measure from each other. They can then circle one another, have moments of dialogue, and prepare to make another attack/exchange while keeping up the tension in the scene.

This guys is just the Linus tech tips of swords

I think you have a point with suspension of disbelief for duration of the fight, even though I hardly think of it while watching. Though to me at least, if done well, it almost makes it seem as though both fighters are extremely skilled to the point where they can react fast enough to last that long in the battle.

I believe "By The Sword" references a 3-hour duel in 17th century France, which the seconds stopped because one man's hand was so blistered that he could no longer hold the sword.

Realism isn’t boring. There’s some really good realistic sword fights one RU-vid.

Sword fighting? Ok. Now what about trident fighting?

Makes me think of how Ewan McGregor and Ray Park had to be told to slow down during their fight in Phantom Menace because it was too fast for the cameras - and it was still epic in the movie!

Speaking of the duel between Mercutio and Tybalt, the original play actually has a description of the exchange that is not only realistic but embodies a contemprary stylistic conflict between traditional English swordsmanship and an imported Italian style, choreographed in a realistic and well informed way. The fight is reconstructed in the book "Master of Defense: the Works of George Silver," by Paul Wagner: "Conventionally, this fight has been interpreted on the assumption that both men carry rapiers and fight in the Italian manner. If, howev- er, we assume Mercutio has the fight of Silver, and Tybalt that of Saviolo, this fight can be reconstructed in a very different manner. Shakespeare used the words 'rapier' and 'sword' interchangeably, but if the Silver-Saviolo hypothesis is correct, Mercutio would be armed with Silver’s shortsword, and Tybalt with a rapier. Although there is no indication that either should be armed with a dagger as well, it is a possibility, as Romeo has a dagger in the last scene of the play. It is clear that Mercutio is, like Silver, fighting defensively, wait- ing for Tybalt to attack and daring him with 'Come, sir, your passa- do!' (III, i, 84). One possibility is that he is in a 'ward of invitation,' with his point off-line. He may be in True or Bastard Guardant, or in Open Ward, as Silver says, 'the Rapier-man is driven of necessitie to lie at the variable fight or low ward, and being there he can neither defend in due time, head, face nor bodie from the blowes or thrustes of him, that shall fight out of the gardant or open fight, but is con- tinually in great danger.' Of these, Silver warns that against a rapier you should 'stand not upon gardant fight only,' making Open Ward a more likely choice. This would be supported in that only after Tybalt thrusts does he 'turn deadly point to point,' and when he jibes at Tybalt, 'Make haste, lest mine [sword] be about your ears ere it be out,'(III, i, 80- 81) implying that he lies 'a loft' and plans to use 'downright blows.' However, Silver also says that when fighting a rapier: 'Lye not aloft with your short sword if he lye alowe variable upon the Stocata or passata, etc., for then your space will be too wyde to make a true Cross in due time, or too farr in his course to make your space narrow … I say make your space narrow until you can cross his sword blade.' In other words, Mercutio might ward low in a stoccata of his own, with his sword lying as close as possible to Tybalt’s..." (p. 165)

@sellswordarts just wondering, what's your opinion of the duel in The Princess Bride?

That Mercutio/Tybalt fight was perfect. I AM FOR YOU!

In my ideal fantasy setting, everyone is well aware that their actions are not the most effective or efficient, but they all prioritize style, flair and theatrics over anything else. And this is universal, everyone does it. And if you for whatever reason decided not to, you’d be ostracized fairly quickly. I can just imagine this as a DND campaign, they get to the villain, and he’s being super fancy and very stylish, and they just take him out as effectively as possible and take him back in chains. And he tells the story of how the fight went, and he gets released on account of their poor sportmanship.

The longest fights happen between those who are good enough but not yet at the peak of their art. Their defense is very good they just cant capitalise on openings or are hesitant.

A approach that I find plausible (and one I want to try in my own manga writing) is how Haikyuu writes extremely short windows of time in a dramatic way. Kinda of how the fandom headcanons Dragon Ball as if it was "slowed down"

I think a lot of people forget that fights are not always about wanting to kill the opponent. I think it is realistic to say you fight because you are at cross purposes. If I'm a thief, I don't need to kill the guard. I want to get away. The guard doesn't need to kill the thief, they need to stop the thief from escaping. If the characters intersperse engagements with moves towards their primary goal, you can have a much longer "fight" scene.

Zorro' s choreography is GOATED

Sword fight in the Princess Bride got me addicted to rapier duels at a young age

To this day my favourite "realistic" sword fight is the short film "Patrimonium"

The length of that fight with no cuts between hits was beautiful.

I've had good bouts that lasted 2-3 minutes without anyone landing a hit because we were both doing the right thing. Cuts, thrusts, parries, circling movement and techniques all applied. Must have looked awesome from the side.

So it's basically like a mix of swordsmanship and dance and a bit of theater, that's fucking sick!!!

The climax battle in Rob Roy is the gold standard of what you are talking about imo

I love how badass this guy makes education about biomechanics.

This is set out like those family guy clips with subway surfers underneath it

The history of fantasy sword fighting on film is interesting. I remember reading about early Errol Flynn films and they had brought on actual fencers to help choreograph the fights, the film makers didn’t want traditional sword fighting due to exactly what you said as the fights would’ve been over too early so they substituted the basic sword clanging that’s permeates most modern films and tv shows!

princess bride's inigo montoya and westly's fight is my favorite fantasy swordfight.

That's why I love your sword fishing videos you real técnicas whit elaborated choreographies.

Adorea Olomouc shows us really well what amazing theatrical sword fights should look like while still using historical techniques.

This makes me think of the story of the actor Basil Rathbone. Back in the 1930s he starred in many swashbuckler movies, usually as the villain. He was actually a classically trained swordsman while most of his co stars were basically doing choreography. This was particularly true of Errol Flynn, who had an unfortunately habit of waving his sword above his head. Its said that Basil's biggest challenge, was making it NOT look like he could have run Flynn through at any time.

I think of form of it similar to gymnastics where you get points for landing fancy maneuvers and not getting hit would be really cool

I remember this scene from a movie where these dudes were having a duel, there was like 3 major movements between the two men, then one got poked in the chest and was like "Dang, I lost."

"You can have both" THANK YOU

"but it lasts longer than what would happen in real life" that one scene where they both move 50 meters past each other and one splits in half

There are duels which have gone on for hours, obviously it's very rare, but when people really don't want to die, it can make things last longer!

If you're making an anime, you can draw out the duel a lot more by slowing down time to show the characters' internal monologues. With this technique, a 30 second duel can last for a whole episode.

"It lasts longer than it would in real life" Sounds like a lot of other videos I watch on line

This philosophy is exactly why I think the best choreographed lightsaber fight was Luke v Vader in Episode 5

They should make a movie about Realistic/unrealistic fighting

Sergio Leone movies applied that streching anticipation. Look at his final duel in once upon a time in the west. Its blazingly fast in the duel, but the suspension is crazy.

There is also a massive difference between HEMA and realistic choreography. Seeing as one is planned and the other isn't

I love the half cape ❤️❤️

I see a lot of stuff about sword fighting and the utility of the longsword and how well and versatile it is! I was wondering what your thoughts were for the hand and a half sword for utility in combat! It's always been my favorite sword design wise!

Credit for the Romeo and Juliet scene on the top. And honestly, the best stage fights take realistic, or outright real, swordwork and simply extend how long it takes for someone to make the mistake that gets them killed. At most, they clean up the motions to make them comprehensible to people watching. You not only *can* have it both ways, at this point in pop culture unless you're going for way over the top, that should *always* be the goal.

You can actually justify the spins and large swings in fantasy. A lot of animes do something in the lines of "a simple cut wont hurt them significantly, and with a big spin you gain more momentum". Which is a simple but effective way to justify the cool moves. You would need the protagonist to be faster or more skilled than the opponent and just weaker in strenght, but that can be done. Simple sword fighting, even if you extend the sequence, its still the same moves over and over. You cant do it for very long or it gets boring.

I think a good example of realistic fantasy sword fighting is the video by corridor digital, "To the death." They get a sword fighting expert to help choreograph a lightaber fight to have it be more realistic while also making a great video out of it

This looks like a whitcher cosplay when geralt meets the Emhyr

Adorea guys are great exsample of realistic yet entertaining armed combat.

This guy’s drip is immaculate my god

To be fair there HAVE been recorded (well.. documented) long duel between various nobles in medieval and industrial era. I remember a description of a duel between 2 champions, one viking one english that lasted hours, and they have broken swords, spears, dane axes etc in the process

My Dungeon master (DnD) made a character that uses fencing with a cape I was impressed

That's also why shootouts in movies last several minutes with almost every shot being completely unnecessary, when most actual shootouts are usually over within 60 seconds

Yo that's Louisiana Tech's Howard auditorium. Wild to see my Alma Mater here

There is a movie titled the duelist I think; it has real sword fight move in it and it’s pretty awesome

I fence in an edge style and I find being called boring a clear indication they’ve never tried it

MY MAN IS DRIPPED OUT!!!

Nothing will ever be cooler than that one fight my old fencing teacher showed me of a guy dual wielding while fighting 1v2

I believe that shorter swordfights can often improve the suspension. Let the audience feel that someone is going to die or lose a limb in a matter of seconds whenever swords are crossed. That way your swordfights will be intensive, scary and memorable.

Love the inclusion of that one scene from Romeo and Juliet

Still fighting in from or Howard Auditorium. :))) I miss that building.

The Adorea (I probably misspelled that) guys have a few videos like this. My particular favorite is about a 90 second unarmored longsword fight that is both cool and cinematic as fuck. Also check out Knight of Hope which is a (embellished but mostly realistic) fantastic representation of just how fucking awesome armor is in a fight.

I love your content!!!!!

How does one get into HEMA? It looks interesting, and my inner fantasy geek self would love some general info on it. Love your vids, you're one of the only creators that deals with things in an open and analytical way! Keep it up!

And now we have to bring this into an arena (stadium like) and play dubstep/EDM in background while a live commentator does his thing

Simplicity it's simplest, is when is at it's finest. - Kreia

Just saw this one. Realistic fights may be boring to the watcher, but duels to the participants and trained eye are amazing . . . And oddly seem to last forever. I've been in fights with a friend where it seemed like neither of us moved for hours. Waiting, watching and then boom and one of us is out. Check the watch and it was total about three minutes. It's all about perception. Movie fights look cool but that's about it.

this feels almost like an innuendo

Gun+sword=RPG AND GERNADES BABY WOOO!

Thing about real fencing is winning and losing so often comes down to luck. You can increase your chances by learning advanced techniques and vigorous training. But in the few moments of exchange its all about weather your response is noticed and/countered by your opponent

I need a laurua nobilis version of this

Going to need a link for that side cape.

Tybalt vs Mercutio there at the end

I thought the duel area looked familiar; that's outside of the theater at LA Tech, the university I attended

People really have no idea how fast fights can be. I roll my eyes every time I read about duels that last 10, 15, even 20 minutes. The closest I've ever gotten to fighting was joining the SCA (NOT as a fighter) and even I know better.

Realistic sword fighting is when i wear one gauntlet as my only armor and a sword on my off hand, as soon as the hilts touch, that gauntlet is going into your face faster than you can say ack.

I agree with you but some movies use big attacks for more theatrical reasons

Longer maneuvering periods punctuated by short engagements. Older movies structured to is fairly well.

LANCELOT BE LIKE 🗿

It's also down to how it's shown in the film. Most of the time melee combat is shown as a long drawn out combat with lots and lots of contact, but there's no reason why that has to be the case. The Western (and Kurosawa-esque Samurai films) demonstrate that you can have incredibly tense and dramatic fights where the actual combat can list literally seconds.

The perfect balance is having both in my personal opinion

Anakin vs obi wan is cool af

More fantasy swordfights please!!

Holy shit this guy is at Louisiana tech?? I’ve seen this dudes videos for a long time while going there and never knew.

Where did you get that rapier? That thing is beautiful

RIP Mercurio

Can u talk about sword fighting scenes in vinland saga

I just want realistic sword fights from skilled swordsmen.For example i read something that Zorro is such a skilled Swordman that he can beat 4 professional Spanish soldiers together without killing them, would something like that be even possible?

Nice Rapier 👍🏻

Yeah, it's true that most matches are over too fast for a great fight scene, but that doesn't mean you can't make a fight scene long enough for cinema using only realistic moves. Just like you did for this video ^.^ And I think it looks amazing.

Romeo! Oof! Why the devil came you between us? I was hurt under your arm.

Gimme that cape

If you have superpowers, you can fence however the hell you want. XD

I had a theory that in a fantasy setting the natural mana in the body of people caused a slight time dilation effect, allowing both combatants to have long exchanges. This would also explain why generic enemies have trouble with a lone hero, they are simply not causing enough of their own dilation to fight on equal footing. Not quite like the flash, or anime, but something along the same lines

If I became an animator, I have a dream, a dream of making a sword fight ( or any fight that's short range ) and make it fast, realistic, and brutal, like a few minutes, and the longest are maybe a few more minutes, brutally efficient, they hit hard, few hits and so on, like in DC and Vox Machina etc.

it’s not a guarantee, but I think if both fencers are of roughly, the same skill level, you’ll get some longer exchanges. One of my favorite saber bouts was maybe 15 or 20 years ago with a friend of mine. I think the minimum number of actions we had was three. We had seven or eight actions in at least one exchange during that bout. We talked a few years ago, and he was convinced that I won it, and I had thought for years he had. I don’t think either of us cared. That was just so much fun.

Agreed, I kept telling my girlfriend it doesn't last as long in real life.

2008 Estonia vs Bulgaria ( I think) epee fencing championships, the duel lasted 30min and thats how passive cards got introduced , also its not boring XD