Talking about Genre and Fandom: AP Rants & Steven Erikson is the Voice of Reason 

The images I make in my mind when I read a book is also an adaptation.

I like the definition of 'Fan' that means 'to stir up air'. There is nothing inherently wrong with being a fan of something, but there are some people that, for whatever reason, seem to identify with some things like a series of books or films so strongly that it becomes part of their identity, and any changes to those books or films is almost always viewed as a personal attack. And there are some other folks who, while probably don't have this fixation, who are more than willing to exploit those who do for money or even just notoriety. We do seem to be living in the age of outrage, but most of it is false outrage, exacerbated by both the anonymity and rapidity by which information can be spread in our current civilization.

As an example of the over simplification of Fantasy by readers just have a look at A Song of Ice and Fire where you'll find most that read it are rooting for the "Chosen Child" with the right Gene's to fight the big evil and have their family rule for ever and ever be it Jon or Dani! yet that couldn't be further from what the author has in mind but that's the story we are familiar with(Star Wars,WoT,LotR,Bible etc..) so we implant it onto what we read regardless if it is in the writing.

Great discussion! I love how you addressed the idea of the 'realist mode' since I was thinking about this topic recently. As someone who's read fantasy literature from multiple cultures, the idea of systematizing the 'magic or strange' in a fantasy world into binary systems of magic was a strange concept to me. In some situations, this can lead to formulaic storytelling since the expectation is realized from the beginning. Reading the machinations behind every magical element in a novel world can sometimes be tedious. I've discovered I often lose interest in such stories (although they're fascinating and good in their own way). However, at some point along the story, the novelty and strangeness of the world is lost on me. Instead of immersing more into the world, I start questioning whether this world makes sense or whether I'll even uncover the layers of this world organically. Somehow, I lose the sense I'm even reading a fantastical story but rather the rubric of a world that could potentially exist.

I think it's great that SE is such a supportive friend while you air grievances with the world at large 😂 Very engaging, and I completely agree. My husband and I were talking about this with music last week - artists that try something too different from their usual work are met with vitriol from fans because it's "not what they like from the artist" but at the same time if the artist makes more of the same people complain that it's "too much of the same thing and the songs all sound the same" It's a strange time indeed. Also, I'm begging for different fantasy series to be adapted, as much as I love both Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, we don't need another adaptation. There are plenty of great stories out there ripe for the picking!

Great rant! I was listening to the part when you guys are discussing the "time crunch" in which stories are reseted. That's another influence from the comics, specially the DC and Marvel worlds. There is clearly a hunger for new fresh stories, but the people in power want the recycled already proven formula, as if such things endured. Although this is not something new. In the 90's when I finished reading LOTR I was looking for more fantasy books, and what was available in my country at that time was "Sword of Shannara". Terry Brooks took the travel aspect of LOTR and used it as a rule for many books. Every story started with a journey and finished when they got to destination.

hahaha, Erikson cracks this nut in 7 minutes :P And I totally agree and was gonna say what he said (in less beautiful wording). I obviously love the novelty and layeredness of fantasy literature like Malazan, which is why I am watching. But others I know read, or watch series or play games, not to spend a lot of energy and brain power to understand what is going on. But to have a fun relaxing time. Nothing helps better there, than predictability and familiarity with regards to the plot. Also, please do not confuse risk-avoidant publishers and hollywood producers and a vocal group of critics with the overall crowd. I think there are plenty people who want to be challenged and want to discover new nuggets. And I think that we are blessed in the fantasy books sphere with both published and self-published works that still do this (as opposed to streaming services and movies). I loved the rest of the conversation as well, but his first answer was so spot on, that I was laughing out loud from enjoyment. You have such meaningful discussions. Love it!

This was another great conversation. I always walk away with more to think about in my own work and whatever I am reading.

I've very much missed a conversation between you two... and I've missed videos with SE in them in general :) I loved hearing that Cam has visited SE, and it's sweet that SE has shown us his copy of Forge of the High Mage. I hope he's doing fine.I haven't read the book yet, but Lorant has, and has enjoyed it :) I've met a few people who called every fantasy reader an escapist, and used it as a pejorative, and once labeled, there was no interest in discussing the nuances of it. A.P. mentioned people not happy about having to use the dictionary - when I encountered this attitude, I tried to shift it to "but think about how cool it is for the brain to learn new words, and how great it is for you to increase your English vocabulary and learn more words and concepts". It worked a few times, so I'll keep on doing it each time I have the chance ☺ SE: "Audio is adaptation [...] it's one form of adaptation [...] this is all being interpreted through a particular individual, an actor" - I'm glad he mentioned it, and it completes what A.P said many times in his vids about this issue. The Mandalorian - we just finished watching season 3 and we both enjoyed it more than season 1 and 2. About fandoms pushing back on the new and creating the situation we're now in, I have another example: my cousin knows someone working for the Discovery TV channel, for the Romanian branch, and she asked why do they play a lot of shows about scrap metal or about "storage wars" and stuff like that, and the answer was that the audiences are very low for the more science-based shows, and very high for "storage wars" so they have more and more shows like that and less and less more scientific shows. The truth about the title of this video now revealed in the last 15 minutes- hahahah, good one, A.P., good one! 🤣 To A.P. - Lorant said that if you're open minded to experimenting, have a look at the Chinese TV show "Three-Body" (the first season - 30 episodes- is after the first book in the trilogy). www.imdb.com/title/tt20242042/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 Thank you both for this wonderful conversation and for keeping on restoring my faith in humanity. In this mad, mad world, you and your conversations full of wisdom, mindfulness and consideration are like breaths of fresh air. Best wishes to you both! 🤗🤗

I think fantasy has gone through a period of extreme creativity. These things tend to be cyclical. Simplistic trends right now might just be a subversion of what has become a trope in and of itself. After a brief lull in which it will probably stabalise with new tropes and standards being established in line with current social norms, more than likely things will get subverted in the opposite direction yet again.

Great discussion AP. Nothing better than a rantle to clear the mind and start thinking critically again, ha. It really is too bad that "escapism" became a dirty word in some peoples' minds. It definitely should not be derogatory and should be something uplifting instead. Until next time, cheers!

i'll be finishing Forge of the High Mage today! enjoying it quite a bit so far. thanks for the chat guys!

I really enjoyed this video and I think you really hit the nail on the head. To constrain any art really takes away from what I love about it. That's why when I picked up Malazan for the first time I was blown away by it because up to that point in time I've never read a novel that was even in the same ball park as it. It was so different from the normal fantasy that I had consumed up to that point it really opened my mind to how impactful a Fantasy book can be to a person. Anyways I really loved this chat and you articulated so many points that I have been thinking about in today's art and entertainment. Thanks A.P your channel is my favorite and it helps make my work day more enjoyable.

Interesting discussion. The need to categorize and rationalize all things in fantasy or the arts in general is a trend I find annoying, but it’s a natural byproduct of both Rationalism and Consumerism. We feel we must be able to explain everything in a rational universe, which extends to fiction and magic and mysteries and people. Also, in a chaotic world, it’s common for people to seek escapism through the illusion of control and understanding. And of course, categories make things easier to sell. Hence genres. That’s not to say categorization is inherently bad, far from it, but when that urge to ossify the ineffable becomes commonplace, art becomes boring. Thankfully, I align with Steve in my optimism of where things are headed. I think artists will naturally push back and consumers will catch up in due time. You can’t stop innovation. You can slow it, yes, but someone somewhere will do something radical that catches on.

The way we consume stories, if you want to talk about TVs and movies and "shows", can be extremely limited to the possibility of exploration. However, we don't sole rely audio-visual media to take in stories. Like SCP series almost REQUIRES you to explore the web forum, otherwise you just won't get into it. There are audiobook or podcast or animation or movie adaptations, but they are not "SCPs" as the forum expressed. Books can be that medium too, but I will argue now we have something even more powerful and flexible, but it also inherently limits how popular the franchise or medium COULD be. After all, the writing format of SCP can be really daunting too.

Excellent conversation to sit in on, especially that fantastic finish with the art history. That bit got me thinking of recent reactions to A.I. art by more traditional artists ( or perhaps worse, an A.I written work of fantasy ?)

I have to say, I adore the Malazan books and would love to see them adapted in some way. I remember Erikson has mentioned somewhere that he wouldn’t like an animated adaptation but I do have to disagree with that, I think animation could be a wonderful art form for this series that enables the tone and beauty of the secondary world to be expressed in different ways to words

I always enjoy these long form discussions - thanks for continuing to post these conversations! Even with the clickbait title haha (just kidding)

Great discussion. Thanks, guys.

A nice thought provoking discussion for my morning, thanks.

Great to hear you both just bloody chatting.

A Critical Dragon is fired up

This was great! I feel my planned video might dovetail nicely with it, all that marxist theory finally paying off... I just read Mel Stanfill's "Exploiting Fandom - How The Media Industry Tries To Manipulate Fans" and it did a lot to my perspective of this, might be worth a look for you A. P. in case you haven't already.

Great talk. Malazan will be talked about, discussed and studied for decades. With popular books like the Stormlight Archive there is nothing to talk about. 😎

Two things after i have finished the video: One, genuinely shocked Star Trek was not mentioned once, considering that franchise has struggled with conservatism both from a fan and artist perspective. Remember when the crew wasnt allowed to argue in TNG? Or when the idea of TNG itself was sacrilege? Two, i wonder if the fandom obsessions with an orthodoxy is serving the same psychological function religion has for much of human history: to have an unshakable core identity as an individual and collective. This is super interesting bc often the “prophets” in a fandom context are still alive and view own texts as far less immutable. I remember when John Green wrote a screenplay and changed the entire ending if his book. And if some showrunner made the changes Steve has suggested for Malazan without Steve’s blessing being public, there would be a unilateral rejection of the adaptation as illegitimate. Also, as an idea, it would be interesting to have an authors chat on adaptation with a panel of authors, assuming this hasnt been done before and i missed it Great video as always!

Wonderful discussion!

I've not yet watched this, but the title has me filled with anticipation.

These talks are amazing.

More rants, please, AP. 😂 I watched a young fella (maybe on RU-vid) basically beseeching his audience for guidance on how to read a particular series. He needed help, tips, clues, whatever, because lots of people loved this series and he just couldn’t seem to get to grips with it. Your points about fans wanting things to follow recognisable patterns just put me in mind of that. Because those pesky Malazan books don’t conform to the “let’s look for a magic thing” requirement. Folk, in general, don’t like too much change. Take Dr Who, a series that’s lasted because of change. David Tenant was immensely popular. Good looking cheeky chappy with companions falling at his feet. Regenerates into Matt Smith. That’s a big change on the face of it, but really it’s another good looking and younger cheeky chappy. A wee bit of pushback to start with until the fans got used to him. Then Matt regenerates into Peter Capaldi, an older guy who is more of the father figure rather than the potential boyfriend. Some folk stopped watching Dr Who around that point, and possibly missed one of the greatest portrayals of the Dr as a result. And then Peter regenerates into Jodi Whittaker. A woman! The outrage at this turn of events! Poor Jodi was badly let down by some awful scripts. Possibly that, more than this occurrence of change, was what lost the show so many viewers, forcing the latest change to be a journey back in time to the days of Russell T Davies and David Tenant. An attempt to regain the ground of familiarity and reset what we all knew and loved. All before Ncuti takes over, representing another change and a first for the show. That’s a bit of a long winded take on fan expectation.

Please let there be an adaptation of malazan for tv or cinema in any form ... All things Malazan are hands down the best media I have consumed in my life, big thanks to Erikson and Esslemont! And All the best!

Excited to see the next installment of Cam's series there for a sec at 0:33 can't wait to read it :)

Really enjoyed this discussion. The struggle of fantasy to be seen as more than escapism seems to me to be very adjacent to the position video games are in. Games have incredible potential as a medium of art, but they are escapism twofold - both in theming, with how many of the biggest games rely on violence, war, conquest, defeating 'evil' enemies, and in the structure of the medium itself, with how most games focus their interactive-mechanical design on fun. On manipulating human psychology for satisfying moments. And fun is great, and serves just as much of a social purpose as escapist fiction. But the dominance of products intended to satisfy that and consumers who only want that out of their games is at an even further extreme than it is for fiction. And the most popular games for their stories are those that try to imitate the storytelling language of movies rather than do anything mechanically experimental. But on the other hand, the indie game space has only been growing in the last couple of decades, and there are many more experimental works than there used to be. Big-budget games are less experimental than they were twenty years ago, and in response to that the indie space has grown. I am very glad that games like Kentucky Route Zero, The Beginner's Guide, or Firewatch exist. But It's just still a drop in the bucket in a larger medium of entertainment that, for the most part, willfully constrains itself. Optimistically, I'd hope that fantasy would go through the same process of an independent space growing in response to the simplification and homogenization. Maybe that's already happening, but is only visible in the right spaces.

This should be very interesting. I've done way too much reading on the subject of fandom, its realtion to capitalism, its exploitation by the media industry and so forth, a longish video is in the works and I wonder how much of my work you two have just made irrelevant here.

great chat!

This is why I always read the books physically first so I have my own interpretation first. I reread with audio which can then add life to prose and dialogue. I particularly enjoyed Karsa Orlong's conversations with Torvald Nom and Samar Dev in audio. There are bigger differences between dialogue and the rest of the writing as they are trying to project a voice and keep the accent the same. I am also enjoying the God Emperor Leto II at the moment in audio (Simon Vance)

Speaking of a book series with multiple audio narrations, The Wheel of Time has been getting new recordings with Rosamund Pike (the actress who plays Moiraine in the show). Listing to her version of The Eye of the World was facinating. I'd grown so familiar with Michael and Kate's narration, yet all of a sudden the book felt fresh again. It was actually a really weird experience haha

Another great video AP. With your opinions of books being adapted into television, film animation and audio, I am curious on what your thoughts would be on translations from foreign languages.

Great discussion! However, I think a crucial element of the discussion on adaptation is missing: Fantasy and Sci-fi fans have not generally received the highest quality of adaptation. While I think this has gotten better over the last couple decades, with studios realizing they can make big bucks putting out good adaptations (Comic book movies, anyone?), this has been an ongoing issue for a long time. I think Fantasy and Sci-fi fans have, over decades, built up an aversion to things being done differently. It's fairly evident that a lot of studios view fandom audiences as inanimate piggy banks. Slap together a cheap piece of shit with a familiar name, and rake in some cash as the mindless fans flock to it. Turns out, even babies are smart enough to stop touching hot stoves after they've been burned. The fact of the matter is, most of the greatest movies of all time are adaptations, and quite unfaithful adaptations at that. Stephen King is famously not fond of Stanley Kubrick's 'The Shining'. Anthony Burgess famously hated Kubrick's 'A Clockwork Orange'. Tarkovsky's 'Stalker' was based on a sci-fi novella 'The Roadside Picnic', which Tarkovsky had read and seriously enjoyed. According to an interview with Tarkovsky in 1979, the film has basically nothing in common with the novel except for the two words "Stalker" and "Zone". The kicker? The authors of the book wrote the screenplay. I've read the novella; it's great. The movie is totally different, and a piece of incredible cinema. Tarkovsky's 'Solaris' is a large departure from the novel it is based on, though not to the level of 'Stalker'. It's one of the greatest science fiction movies of all time. Kurosawa's 'Ran' was based on a parable about a Japanese warlord, and later heavily inspired by King Lear. It is nowhere near an accurate adaptation of either story, but it is fantastic in its own right, and fantastic as a dialogue to both original stories. Park Chan Wook is one of the greatest directors living today, and quite a few of his best movies are loose adaptations from an 1868 French novel (Thirst), a Japanese manga (Oldboy), and a 2002 Welsh book (The Handmaiden). Pasolini's 'The Decameron', 'The Canterbury Tales', and 'Arabian Nights' do not need explanations. Pasolini was a visionary director, and his works rarely conformed to the stories they are based on. Though I hesitate to name Salo as one of the greatest movies of all time due to its infamous nature, it's surely a massively interesting and artful adaptation of de Sade's '120 Days of Sodom'. All of his films, though adaptations of generally famous stories, were transformed into important socio-political commentary, and allegory. He transformed hundreds of years old books into works of art relevant to Italy after the second world war. This comment might be pretty useless, as I don't think the modern fantasy or sci-fi fan has any interest in watching almost anything I've listed, but I am sure there are examples more relevant to their tastes. Avengers: Infinity War probably wasn't very accurate to the comics (never read those comics)... I think we need to remind people that adaptation does not solely equal capitalism's obsession with churning out shit products for quick bucks. Adaptation is the norm. Entirely inaccurate adaptations are the norm, and people much smarter than the average fantasy fan view these unfaithful adaptations as the greatest works of music, literature, film, and television ever created. Then we can watch the nuclear fallout of modern fantasy fans publicly renouncing all meaning and artistic merit from these non-sensical European films, and we can all take a step back and wonder if maybe intelligence plays a part here.

Good discussion

12:56 I am picturing myself sitting around your campfire now 🤔

@A Critical Dragon Great discussion. I hope that Steven will find this somehow cheering that I already told my fiance that if we ever hit big in lottery, I am spending 100 M on making live action Malazan - and I will not intervene into his vision. OK there will be one demand from my side - I would like to shoot at least some scenes on the Trail of the Eagle's Nests ;)

The dragon is critical and spewing fireballs! Something I though about: early super hero comics (especially Superman) were morally very simplistic, good-guys vs. bad-guys and that was very popular in the aftermath of WWII where, as we all seem to agree now, there was a very clear good-guy and a very clear bad-guy. A dynamic dragged into and through the cold war. In a way, the current polarization in Western politics, I think, creates and audience that wants equally simplistic morals again. Nuance is seen as compromise and compromise is less and less accepted. Be it in US presidents or in Ukraine. The morality of partisanship and war aside, I can see how that reflection in art can be disappointing.

AP I'd love to hear your thoughts on the most recent Batman film with Robert Patterson since you brought up the caped crusader as an example in terms of origin stories. I felt like it rejected realism in a great way that created a more atmospheric film. Also not really an origin story in the classic sense which I appreciated!

On the audio thing: There are new versions of the Discworld audio books coming out right now and they might make for a good comparison to the old ones as would a comparison between the Rob Inglis and Gollum versions of Lord of the Rings. Maybe I could look at that if I feel like spending another audible credit on a book I already know and love in one adaptation.

I hope there will be an adaptation of Malazan - really could be amazing

I thinks it came from laziness in the modern fan, they want vary things simple and fast not to have to thinks on the massage

Yes there bloddy should be! Bring the adaptations on man!!! Start with Mott Wood movie people, I want to how that went down ..... oh, the potential!

Very interesting. I am writing characters that are morally grey (or at least that is the intention) but I am lucky enough to have two alpha readers and BOTH of them interpreted a character I'd written to be nuanced as flat out evil. I wonder if that is because they have a desire for it to be an uncomplicated story of good vs evil. I'm hoping a deep dive into that particular character's backstory in book two will help to reinforce her morally grey outlook, explaining if not truly justifying her actions in the first book. I hope it will redress the alpha-readers' interpretations of absolute villainy in the first book.

Couldn't agree more about Eddings. I absolutely adore the Belgaraid and liked the character growth and world building in the Mallorean. Belgarath the Sorcerer is one of my favourites. I couldn't however get into any of his other books. They were all too similar to the originals.

A.P. is having his Scorsese moment hehehe. It was what he was trying to say but the "cinema" thing set people off. You can see it across multiple fandoms where most people are looking for sameness and I agree with Steve that it's a reaction to the increasing uncertainty of the world. Star Wars with Andor (great show but quite different from other Star Wars stories), MCU with the examples given.

I feel like we always agree that fantasy can fulfil a sense of wonder. But Erikson's anthropological frame of fantasy fulfilling a function and that that function is escapism feels too restricted to take on board that desire for a sense of wonder. I see fantasy fulfilling a need that mere escapism cannot fully capture. Escapism is like a dismissal of the dreary normal world, a turning away from, while looking for a sense of wonder is actively seeking something of almost spiritual value, a turning towards something of additional value to life. If we look beyond escapism, what is there of worth in the genre that is worth turning towards? Last couple of years the genre has turned increasingly towards inclusivity, so that is also something that can be a source of inspiration in addition to mere escapism.

So how much did Steve charge for the therapy session? :D Fun rant, I get similarly frustrated while perusing certain sub reddits.

As an example of distorted history you can take the discovery of the America's, well we all know the Columbus yada yada, and now it's excepted that the Norse(viking) landed in Newfoundland about 1000 years ago.. right great but what about Chickens? they are a bird native to Asia yet the Natives of south America have had them for about a thousand years and we know that Polynesians have being using potatoes(might be Tobacco can't remember!) for almost as long which implies that there must have been contact amongst these two groups way back but they didn't announce it to the world and so it's quietly ignored!.

Somehow "Voice of reason" suits SE's persona 👍

The problem lies with calling fantasy "the genre." It is more useful, to readers and writers, to have a more granular view of genre. When people say, "nuanced, complex fantasy with difficult language that incorporates subtle themes is bad" what they mean is, "I want to read pulpy fantasy." Which is fine (for them). We are all helped by viewing and evaluating works against a model of what that work was actually trying to accomplish, and clearly, not all fantasy books are trying to be the same thing.

I don't know of any fans demanding for formulaic fantasy stories. But I do know that capitalism demands the continuous production of "content" without regard to quality.

Tribalism is a human condition which I wish would die away. I think though sometimes people forget that fan is short for fanatic. If you were to call someone a fanatic they wouldn't be happy. I wish people would stop using the word hate for dsiliking books, music, tv etc. Hate is too strong a word for discussion of arts and media.

Seems to me like You are making the case that 'conservatism' is bad on it's face. Bad as in, not good. Surely there are myriad things in the genre worth Conserving. Maybe you're gesturing at stagnation? That's not isomorphic with Conserving. Stagnation is a negative, static state of the genre. No one wants that to happen. But to conserve certain things within the genre is good. -additional observation: I agree with the pair of you that I don't want the genre to become formulaic. That's a negative precedent to set.

Wow! How original. AP complaining about lack of originality. Seen it. I will use my millennial internet powers and jaded cynicism to make sure your fringe ideas never make it through the algorithm.

What happens to a genre once it's subverted?