Thanks for the video Ryan! For single pitch terrain guiding, I've started to rack an apprx 30cm power cord loop to use as a little girth hitch rap extension (Hollowblock on the belay loop) where I'm zipping down from a secure ledge and I don't need a tether. No knots, fast and easy. It can double as an extra friction hitch, or alpine draw, or for whatever else I might need as well. Peace and love!
Excellent content Ryan. I've been climbing since 2003 and lived in the Red River Gorge for ten years. Before I ever started climbing, I spent the better part of a year rappelling so it would become second nature. I didn’t start using an auto block until I went for my AMGA training. Once I learned the importance of it, I’ve never rappelled without one. Getting to the top of a climb isn’t worth anything if you can’t get back down safely. In 2008, two teenagers, friends of mine, were killed when their anchor failed during the rappel. They were simul-rapping on a ten year old, sun bleached, single piece of webbing. It was night and I'm assuming they were in a hurry. Climbing, if done correctly is not as dangerous as a lot of people might think. Thanks for putting this out there. Hopefully no-one else will end up like my two friends.
Thanks for the clear explanation on why the third hand on the leg loop isn't taught/recommended anymore. I climb sporadically, climb for a season or so then drop back into other hobbies for a few years then back to climbing. I did train with this method years ago and it's the one I still mainly use, I have been noticing more people moving away from it recently but the explanations I've heard have left me unconvinced of the benefit over the complexity of the belay set up. Definitely will be looking at using the newer methods in the future.
The way you explained the drawbacks of an unextended rappel setup was great! I usually extend my rappels, just because it feels more clean and reliable - I didn't actually know about these pitfalls of the unextended rappel setups, where the 3rd hand may become pretty much useless. Another thing I've heard quite frequently which goes along well with your statement that the rappel might be the most dangerous part of a climb is: "If you can walk off, you should walk off and not rappel down." (Of course that still depends on how dangerous the terrain is to actually walk off, or how well established the rappel route is. But as a general rule of thumb that seems to be a good idea.) Thanks so much, as always! Love your content!
Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about the "if you can walk off, do so" advice. Walking off is always safer than rappelling without a back up, but if you extend your rap, have a backup, tie stopper knots, have a redundant attachment at anchors and always weight test your rappel then I'd feel safer doing that than a lot of walk offs. Obviously if it's a fourth class paved hike out that will always be safer, but a lot of people will scramble down rather than rap and that doesn't feel much safer to me. There are about as many rap deaths as walk-off/scrambling deaths in experienced climbers, but every experienced climber rap death I've read about has had at least two of the following: simul rapping, no knots, no prussik, no weight testing, rapping on shitty non-redundant gear, not locking device. If the rap is faster, I'd probably prefer it to a walk off with unroped scrambling. Now that I think about it I'd probably add "using an auto-locking belay biner" to my safe rapping framework.
@@perplexedon9834 Yes, I totally agree. There's just a lot of things that go into a rappel - as you've enumerated most of them already. So there's a bunch of possibilities both for human error and for potential gear failure. Some of the major considerations about rappelling in my opinion are also: - are there any weird cracks / flakes where the rope might get totally stuck in when you pull it off? - are the rappel stations along the way easy to find? - if the multi-pitch route overall is "leaning" either left or right quite heavily: Is it even comfortably doable to get to the next anchor or is there potentially even a dedicated vertical set of anchors specifically for rappelling? I actually also just recently bought an auto-locking carabiner for rappelling: I chose the Edelrid Bulletproof Triple II auto-locker which comes with a steel inlay for extra longevity, even when rapping a lot. It's also available with a little spring (FG version) to prevent cross loading.
@@Zolodar definitely great situational factors to consider in addition to the systems factors I discussed. I think I'll look into that biner, sounds good even if your description of it sounds like an ad :P
@@perplexedon9834 hehehe, yeah I was kinda afraid of sounding like an ad... But I did quite a bit of comparison between different auto-lockers before I decided to go for that one in particular, so I thought I might as well share the suggestion.
excellent video as always! My first time outdoor climbing was with a guide and he taught us to extend the rappel, it was a helpful tip that I've done ever since. I see a lot of people struggle with getting this right, or even weight testing their system right before descending.
You could put the prussik above ATC and finger-slide it while descending. Also in that configuration ATC works as pulley-prussik ascender kinda like you use on work positioning line (although it is more like a rusty pulley because higher friction 😊).
Statistically speaking, lowering/rappelling is far and away the most dangerous part of climbing. Something like 70% of fatal injuries in the sport come from lowering/rappelling. Overall, I think you did a great job presenting the progression of rappel variations in ascending order of safety. I have the tiniest possible niggle: you girth hitched your extension through both hard points on your harness. This has one disadvantage - it puts extra wear on the hardpoints of your harness. Because the hard points separate when you stand up and cinch when you weight your rappel device, you are actually rubbing soft goods against each other under weight. Will this be fatal? Probably never. Is it bad practice? Maybe? just girth hitch to your belay loop. You get a few more inches to your extension (who doesn't want that, eh?). Especially if you compensate by tying your overhand closer to your harness. Now, your anchor connection can have some actual reach and you can more easily test your system before unclipping. I have had too many awkward and, in retrospect, suboptimal and dangerous rappels in the past so I spent a lot of time this past season really working through the myriad variations to try and get better and safer at this part of climbing.
It's funny you take this point of view because most people call me out for girth hitching through my belay loop, It's great that you followed your own line of reasoning to that conclusion rather than just going with what everyone is telling you to do. In the end it doesn't really matter if you attach the tether to your tie in points or to the belay loop. I think my go to in the alpine is actually girth hitching through the gear loop, but for the most part the tie in points are the exact same as the belay loop but with extra material woven around them to counter the extra wear of having the rope rub on them all the time. The belay loop doesn't have that extra material because the metal gear doesn't rub on it as bad as the soft material. As long as you remove your rappel tether at the end of every day along with regularly checking your gear for wear then you'll be totally fine. This would actually make a really good topic for a video so I think I'll add it to my list, Thanks for the idea and watching!
Exactly, the whole reason to use the tie in loops is because of the extra layer of material intended for soft material... If you tie your rope into it all the time and take falls on it, why couldn't you put your soft extension on it? That's exactly what it's for...
I agree with the below critiques. Metal to belay loop, soft to hard points. Girth hitching through the hard points and clipping the third hand to the belay loop keeps everything clean and separate, and following manufacturer recommendations too.
@@ryantilley9063 just a heads up, you might want to edit your comment, where you wrote "girth hitching through the gear loop". You most certainly meant to say "belay loop", as the gear loops are obviously not rated for that kind of stuff 🙂
I've been using the leg loop forever, didn't even realise it's shortcomings, will be using extended method from now on as that leg lift demonstration was scary!
I learned with a figure 8 by myself and I still use a leg loop autoblock. But I keep my leg loop tight, my hitch short, and I check it thoroughly before I go over. It's also what I do for tree work if I'm not climbing on a hitch because it's all I really have room for.
Third hand will not save you all the time if you do the mistake to pass only one strand of the rope in the ATC, I used to test it multiple time on the ground with a Prusik and I got few time a total fail (it was very rare). Prusik is very safe if both strand of the rope are fix and the prusik is moving, it quickly grab if ropes sizes fit specs. When fixing only one strand of the rope in the ATC it ends up with one strand of the rope going down (the one in the ATC) and the other strand going up, in some particular unlucky situation the prusik may grab only the rope going down and let the other strand moving up freely (you simply fall to the ground). As I said it is probably very rare, I used to test it with some fail last year and I was not able to get any more fail when I repeated same testing this year, I presume my rope does not have same texture and flexibility due to some extra days of climbing, so prusik is maybe grabbing more. I highly recommend to test the system all the time while you still clipped at the top with a lanyard or any type of security independent to your rappel system.
I love your videos because your headspace and attitude perfectly matches mine. Ive had the same thoughts and criticisms of the leg loop techniques. Nowdays on multipitch if Im using an atc I'll extend with a sling with a knot, because then its a PAS that I can use to weight test the rappel, and it separates the prussik. Most of the time I actually use a Alpine Click Up though. Especially with two ropes worth of friction, I trust the "auto" braking in the case of getting knocked out, and just like with ATC prussik systems I'll tie an overhand to do any technical work. I tried the gigajul, but the lowering action wasn't great. The Alpine Up lowers with a lever like a Grigri, and tends to grab enough on a 9.5mm double strand rappel that you get a slow and steady lower in free hanging rappels with it pushed all the way down. Its slow enough that it's kind of anti panick. You can go faster by lifting the break side rope up.
I often use my haul loop on the back. Just keeps it way out of the way. Always ensure your haul loop is at least halfway decent even though most brands dont like to put an official rating on them. You may need a longer friction hitch loop of you're a wider climber
The point about mistakenly clipping the 3rd hand to the belay loop is true. But a similar point applies to rappelling with extension - it's easy to forget the extension and mistakenly clip the rappel device to the belay loop (I see this a lot). The result is the same. So I don't think the possibility of mistakes weighs in either way on the choice between 3rd hand on the leg loop and using an extension.
You should use an extension that does not have a knot or keep the knot away from your friction hitch because the knot can tend the friction hitch if it is in the wrong spot
Thank you for showing the rappel extension through the hard points. Really shouldn't tie/hitch soft materials to your belay loop (it's not made for "sawing friction").
I buy micro- and megajul to solve this problem, but rapelling was not fast and smooth, even with using the nose of carabin in that small hole. I decide to use it on lower multipitches and ATC for bigwalls.
Here is a question I've had for a while. What is the downside to placing the third hand above the belay device? I have a 60cm or maybe it's 120cm cordelette. It can all go to the belay loop with no extension. What do you think? I couldn't find anyone discussing this on the forums.
The downside is that your full weight will end up on the prusik, making it harder to unload after you sit down. Personally I also prefer to have two hands on the braking strand, which isn't possible if you have to tend to a prusik above the device
If your friction hitch is above the belay device it's not really a backup, it just becomes your primary attachment to the rope. The friction hitch below the device gives you two points of attachment.
@@PBeetheFox no, it still is a backup. The abseil device is still primary, since you can't really lower using a Prusik. While hanging in the Prusik you could maybe argue otherwise, but during the main repelling it definitely is a backup
A 3rd hand above the belay device will still catch you if you let go of the brake, but it has to hold your whole weight. It will be tricky to unweight it and continue rappelling. By connecting the 3rd hand below the belay device, the hitch only has to gently grab the rope to operate the brakes. It's a lot easier to finesse. Either will work but below is easier to operate.
It's funny I got asked this question a couple of times on this video, I actually just finished another talking point video that is about this subject. It'll be on my channel in the next few weeks and I try to go in-depth into the subject. For the most part this conversation covered many of the main pitfalls with the system, the biggest problem is if you do accidentally lower yourself onto the hitch while it is above the device then it will be really hard or even impossible to unweight the friction hitch without adding on more hitches to stand on while you release your backup.
I switched to rapping with a GriGri (single line + pull cord) a few years ago and haven't looked back. Infinitely easier IMO. I'm sure there are failure modes but I got so annoyed with third hands that it made me not want to use one, which is obviously unsafe. Also makes it easy to self rescue if you need to re-ascend, just throw on an ascender (tibloc or whatever) and RAD out. Great video, I enjoy weedsy safety content.
I think I’d rather carry a third hand than a second rap line. You can still rap with the Grigri with a single rope so you don’t have to carry a second rope.
I dont find i use the extention much. I dont find I get the same control as atc direct to belay loop. It's just not smooth. Very much more oldschool is third hand above the atc, im sure the haters will start on me for it. But it just works better.
6mm cordolette is rated for about 9kN. You're doubling it so it's about 18kN. If you're generating those sort of forces while rappelling you've got some other problems.
That little cord is a special kind of material made out of aramid fiber by Edelrid, it's called the HMPE cord. I have an older model but it's essentailly the same as a sling but a lot smaller. It's still rated for 22Kn like any other sling. Here's the newer version on their website: edelrid.com/us-en/sport/slings-and-webbings-shop/hmpe-cord-sling?filter%5Bkategorie_id%5D%5B0%5D=43&variant=2974224
Great information… Friendly Side note… For the love of all that’s Harry… trim your moustache… looks like it’s coming out of your nose and it’s very very distracting…
@@remijio303depends on the hitch but more importantly if the hitch is below the device it doesn’t have to take all your weight it just has to hold enough for the ATC to block
