Complexity is not a vice. It's a brilliant line and a message for all of us, not just the people who make the big decisions. It's a reminder that if we want better leaders we need to be better citizens.
I'm from the future - 2023. 40% of the country now wants fascism. (sorry ... about how 2023 actually is, I mean.) yes, a brilliant line/message. just not "all of us" got it.
I suspect a number of people here thought that was Ritchie *losing* gracefully. That's not how I took the line at all; I thought that was Ritchie telling Bartlet "yeah, sorry, old man; have fun playing golf", myself... That makes his response a good deal less gracious.
A great clip, but the best line is actually by CJ: "Complexity isn't a vice" - a phrase I agreed with so much I had it printed and framed. God I wish politicians were willing to tell that to the public, even if we didn't want to hear it.
Were more politicians to act like this, that wouldn't be a problem! They aren't compelled to act this way, they failed to lead - which since that's what they're being elected to do, means I SHOULD blame them
@@rhas356 they are compelled to act that way. If they pander, and tell people what they want to hear, people vote for them. No one is forcing you to vote for the person pandering to you.
@@JusticeFrogs My point is that if both candidates behave better, neither gets penalised. And if all my candidates pander, then I *can't* vote for someone not pandering for me!
@@rhas356 Right, but if one behaves more ethically, and the other gets more votes, then the one that gets more votes wins. And you can write in vote for whoever you want. Blaming individual politicians for playing to win a broken game, rather than fixing the game, is not going to work.
It's a perfect segue to Ritchie admitting he'll lose the election and instead of Jed kicking him while he'll down he gives him words of encouragement. Considering he had decided to "kick his ass" after "Crime, boy I don't know," he is Ali in that moment and Ritchie is Forman on the mat.
@@TGIFrank My opinion: if he hadn;t yet decided to kick his ass, wtf was he doing running up until that point? Too bored to stick to crosswords, or something?
@@davidfrederick9973 If you watch the entire series it's made clear by all characters including Jed himself that one of his biggest strengths and weaknesses is that when he feels called to a position he'll fight for it regardless of his personal health and the feelings of his family. It's why he lies to his wife about not running for a second term and why he focuses so strongly on finishing out his second term rather than getting involved in the politics of Santos as he campaigns to succeed him. He's already having doubts about his mental and physical health at this point in the series but he and his team are frustrated with what they've left unfinished in the white house and it isn't until Richie turns a tragedy into an inciting comment that he decides to throw out the script and go on instinct in their debate.
4 года назад
The presidential debate I wish I could be watching live right now.
This one was just Bartlett humiliating Richie. But I prefer the one in Season 7, you see the debate from start to finish and it is between two people that have actual idea's.
Snickering Ginger just so you know, if you’re against trump, you’re a liberal traitor who doesn’t deserve the right to vote. Fuck the left and their party. An organization of race traitors and terrorists who will never have the interest of the country on their agenda
Snickering Ginger really font care tbh. I’m glad she’s making history and hope to god they do the right work on behalf of the American people (even though I know they won’t). Hope you don’t plan on retiring in the next 4 years because his capital gains tax will wipe your income from your retirement.
John James are you morons ever going to come up with a new argument. We aren’t racist because we hate the left, we’re American. Find a new rhetoric because no one cares about your fucking feelings anymore
@@frankierodriguez4132 Jed Bartlet was from NH, another small North Eastern state few people would've noticed unless during the presidential primary season...
The scene where CJ assumes and gives voice to the position that Holbrook would normally espouse and his reaction is one of the finest pieces of television writing ever made. It actually moves me to tears every time I watch it.
There is a moment in some movies when the hero is made. There is a moment when we know people are there to do what is needed and are intelligent and brave enough to do it. We need that now..........
This. Everyone here is talking about Bartlet and Richie in this scene, but I love the moment with CJ & Holbrook. He was brought on to do canned lines and then she just lets him up tee off on his own unfiltered views instead. Perfect.
@@woozy7405 It is referring to an early conversation between those two characters where CJ was trying to reign in Holbrook's character to give the overly simplistic answers around trade with nations like China. He stated something to the effect that trade means China will be exporting to the U.S. and using political prisoners as slave labor to keep the products cheap. She fed his line back to him as a way to say "Feel free to answer the question as you see fit, it is a complex issue unbecoming of overly simplistic answers."
Trump supporters can't say anything that goes past 3 words. Build the Wall, Lock her up, send them home. In a few years they will all be "grunting" unable to say actual intelligible speech.
Because "Build the Wall", "Make America Great Again" and "Send Them Back", is easy.. unless you put details on it... Americans aren't great on details.
Bartlett isn't necessarily the president that Democrats have been wishing for; from the show it appears as though has about the Centrist Democratic politics as Obama and Clinton did. But he DEBATES and he SPEAKS like the president that us Democrats have always wanted.
He debates and speaks like the president BOTH sides have always wanted. The last time we had a president who was probably the smartest guy in the room was likely Bush Sr.
Now I wanna see Sorkin do the Anti-west wing. A show about government employees, maybe in intelligence, or high-level law enforcement, perhaps the office of a long-time senator. Where the good guys, the main characters serve at the pleasure of a president who isn't honorable. I wanna see them try to do the right thing when theyre the low-man on the totem pole, and have to react to a feckless thug trying to tear the country apart. That's what I wanna see.
@@johndub3866 Overturning democracy .. huh.. that's what i'd call attempting to use a foreign nation to interfere in elections for personal gain. And as a reminder the president might've been elected. But so were the house of representative members
@@joem3082 You NPC arsehole. The Dems used Russian disinformation to create a BS dossier and then lied to the FISA courts about it to get warrants. FFS stop being such a sheep. All you''re doing is regurgitating Rachel Maddow's bollocks. Get a life. Think for yourself.
@@darreleddings5901 eh? Nepotism is about helping, favouring and giving family members jobs mate. Acting has nothing to do with it. If a chef gives his son a job in his restaurant then that's called nepotism. It doesn't matter if he's a good waiter or not. It's still nepotism bud. Hollywood is full of actors who only got an audition in the first place because of their parents good name.
As a lifelong Republican, I would be proud to have Jed Bartlet as my president. He possesses the intellect, the integrity, the idealism, the character, and the morality that our elected leaders should have. President Obama and President Bush are both good men, and decent presidents, but they lack(ed) the leadership skills to be truly GREAT presidents.
I think I know why. Bartlet may be a Democrat but he is an American Patriot. Mr Trump is in it solely for self promotion. He brings no vision to the table.
@@nukm4 I repeat, it would lose him the election. He’s become the obnoxious kid waving his hand in the teacher’s face so that he can correct a classmate, and nobody wants that kid to be president. Bartlett does OK with low numbers, but slightly bigger ones baffle him. He knows the difference between one and two, but not between ten and fifteen. Notice: Ritchie: “The American people know how to spend their money better than the federal government does.” Bartlett: “That’s the ten-word answer my staff has been looking for.” As for Bartlett’s claim that the country is too big for ten-word principles, it depends on the words: “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech.” Count them.
@@keithsmith4780 What you mean is that it would lose him *your* vote because you are, as hard as this will be for you to believe, dumber than the average American.
As much as I like this part of the episodes, one of my favourite moments of the show really. On subsequent viewings I can't help but think, this answer from President Barlet may play great with audiences of the West Wing but what about the people watching the debate? When the President starts to talk about 10 word answers, we know what he's talking about because we've been behind the scenes hearing all about it for the past 35ish minutes. The debate audience is probably thinking, "What the hell is he talking about?"
This is my take on it so bear with me. Bartlet's opponent states that the reason they should cut taxes is that the people know how to handle their money better then their government. However, he gives no way in HOW the government is gonna reduce taxes, or what they are going to do to achieve it. Bartlett calls him out on it, saying that there is no easy way of handling spending, or reduction of it. Saying that "they always end in body counts" or in other words to reduce taxes we have to sacrifice something. Followed with, you may not agree with him, but he still knows what he needs to do in order to keep the country together, and not just give answers without proper explanations.
Craig Bickerstaff it plays well because he called out his opponent on his bullshit and he makes it clear that he knows it's bullshit. For the people at home hearing about 10 word answers, well the president has just informed them that this is a political trick and offered to step down if his opponent can back it up with more than 10 words. It's a bold move and shows that the president is confident and the other guy has not thought this thing through
This is actually one of my least favorite 'big moment' scenes in the West Wing. When the President asks Richie what the next 10 words are, even a caricature candidate would have a response. Even if it was a stupid answer with no facts or logic, he'd know how important it is to say something (Hell, Bartlet says he'll drop out if he can... so why would you stand quietly?). I know that Richie is supposed to be this candidate who has no original thoughts and is an echo chamber for his party, but I feel like there's just no way any candidate that has made it this far would ever stand there quietly after what Bartlet said. And even if Richie IS dumb enough to stand there, Bartlet sure got lucky that he was.
+jwoey That's kind of like saying "but in A Few Good Men it's so convenient that Colonel Jessup admits to ordering the code red. All he had to do was stay calm and he would win." Yes, it's true that if they had done something else he could have won. But it's a story, and a character, and they were always going to do what they did because that's how they were written. Bartlet used everything Richie had to say against him, leaving him unable to retort. In A Few Good Men, Kaffee (Tom Cruise) infuriated the colonel to such extent that he was always going to snap and confess. In 8 Mile's final rap battle, Rabbit (Eminem) wins the battle by using everything Pappa Doc would have said and turning it against him, leaving him speechless (just like the 10 word answers scene, but with considerably more rap. So the 10 word answers scene if it was presented by Hamilton). As curious people it's easy to get caught up in what-if scenarios. As long as their actions and behaviours follow logically from their character development, it's best to just accept that it's plausibly how they could have acted and keep in mind that it's a story being told and the pieces have to fit together for it to work.
+James Boyd You know, I loved West Wing, and I'm a Liberal democrat, but I would have LOVED to see the "Republican West Wing" with John Goodman as POTUS. Sheen was the Liberal president we always wanted, and I think Sorkin could have written Goodman as the GOP president we always wanted.
+Mozart1220 I'm a moderate Republican but even I have to confess that Aaron Sorkin, despite doing a terrific job of portraying conservatives in The West Wing, has allowed his mind to spiral into absolute delusion recently. The Newsroom was literally a show about a Republican who does NOTHING but bash other Republicans in his newscast. That's become his conception of practical objectivity when it comes to politics. I absolutely adore his writing style and even his ideological approach was commendable 15 years ago, but he would absolutely butcher a present-day show about a GOP candidate.
+Usman Ali That's because the modern Republican Party isn't what it used to be. Candidates like Jim Webb, Jon Huntsman, or John Kasich should have been the front runner in this election for Republicans, at least they have ideas and aren't running based on xenophobic rhetoric. Now, it's overran by the Tea Party and Donald Trump is currently leading in the polls even after racist remarks against Hispanics and Muslims. Bush was very vocal saying that we were not at war with Islam or the entire Middle East but the Right in 2016 are going out of their way comparing all Muslims with that of ISIS and Ted Cruz even said he'd make the sand glow. And that just isn't even rational when you realize how many Muslims aren't even in the middle east or aren't even terrorists. They kill and do unspeakable harm to more Muslims than anyone else...
@@nickcivetta2 Well, if you're a "tea partier" then it's not surprising that you missed nearly all of it. Your selfish fascination with getting taxes cut, ignores the reality of how marginal tax rates work in the first place. You remind me of the recent cartoon showing the billionaire, the average worker, and a poor guy. There's a huge plate of cookies in front of the billionaire, two cookies in front of the average worker, and the poor guy just has crumbs. The average worker looks away, and the billionaire steals one of his cookies. The average worker looks at the billionaire, who points to the poor guy, and the average worker starts attacking the poor guy, while the billionaire is chuckling that he got away with yet another theft. You're supporting the billionaire who is fleecing all of us, while pointing at the poor guy as the problem. You're the problem. To propose a conservative policy from the 1950s in today's political atmosphere is being labeled by you and your ilk to be a radical, socialist path for the country's destruction. You're what ruined this nation. You helped give it to the oligarchs.
@@nickcivetta2 I mean the tea party is infamous for it's 10 word answers: Obama's a socialist. he's a commie. a Muslim. He wants to ruin America. he's the anti Christ! He wants to kill babies. He wants to steal your money. Most of those answers aren't even 10 words. Change up how you talk, and maybe we can have a real debate, and a productive government. Cause it seems to me that it's always the Democrats that strive to compromise: it's always the Dems that strive for education and debate.
Boris S. Not a tea party member or a far right wing person but the point you guys are missing is that both sides use the 10 word answer technique! Bartlett says it himself that the right wings 10 word answer was the ten word answer his side was looking for. All he did was throw in the right counter to make that statement mean nothing special... for real world example even most on the right would say there’s reason to question how nice or good a guy Trump is by that I mean he’s not nice if anything he’s a complete A$&, so when Hilary gave that great answer of him not able to be trusted with the power she had the ten word answer all the states needed to hear. But all he said to destroy that ten word answer from the left was a simple “cause you’d be in prison” and it showed how untrustworthy and crooked she was too... As for us striving to compromise on the left during Obama’s reign we shut down the government a few times each time the right brought us multiple plans to reopen and our representatives said nope nothing but xyz will do. Then under trump he demanded a huge amount for the wall and the right followed our reps said no so they lowered our reps still said no so they lowered more then our reps ignored it and sent their own proposal that basically was status quo and sent extra money to these countries that basically assist in the immigration situation while ignoring the wall they knew the right wanted.... our reps come to the compromise table far fewer times they just are better salesman... no offense we have good ideas but our representatives are among the least willing to work together and willing to act as if they represent more than just their political party affiliates that congress has the right doesn’t have a monopoly on A$&holes for representatives or spokespeople and your and others on the lefts unwillingness to acknowledge that is more of a problem than any 1950 conservative policy that our reps could compromise and make adjustments to if they’d only come to the table and try instead of selling the same old use car goods bs they do about the right. Some of the Most understanding friends I have about politics are from the right and by far the most judgement people I know are my friends from the left so maybe we need to try to force ourselves to look from a different perspective every now and then. Don’t get me wrong we need to progress and be more understanding and inclusive in the US but our representatives and lawmakers are doing no better at living up to that then their right counterparts... the one thing Trump got right was the need to drain the swamp... or do you really thing it’s rich republicans and right wingers that turned Pelosi and Hilary and Schumer and Obama into millionaires after “serving” in public service instead in business?
@@kevenders I'm an independent, I despise both political parties. I support ideas and personality, not party. If a republican who had integrity and good ideas, more so than any democrat, I'd vote for him and support him publicaly. But the last one of those was John McCain, and we saw how the republican party treated him in the Trump era. I understand the importance of compromise and perspective: some of the best, most productive conversations I've ever had have been with conservative people. They've all been civilized and intelligent. That's why I would have voted for Obama and Hillary: they're smart. They know how to listen, how to debate and create policy. So while I wasn't a fan of Hillary's dubious emails and wall street dealings, it was way better than having a literal 5th grade vocabulary sitting in the oval office.
+samuel colt Fun fact: Obama's chief of staff was suprised when he was told that he couldn't order takeaway in the whit house for safety reasons. His reply? "But they do it all the time on The West Wing!"
I really think the West Wing was best when it showed how complex and nuanced the world and politics can be, and that issues are always complex, but that does NOT mean there are no right answers or good answers, just answers that don't fit easily on a bumper sticker. It might have favored liberals, but I think it did a good job of sometimes showing liberal failings as well, and sometimes showed conservative morality. End of the day, politicians are people too.
It's OVER!! What a great line. The best line of this fictitious debate, though, isn't in this clip. It was when Ritchie talked about how the states should do the governing and should determine their education policies without interference from the Federal Gov't. So Bartlet pointed out to him that the Federal Gov't gave his State of Florida over $50B to help them fund education. Then he said he was supposed to be asking a question, so here it is. "Can we have it back?". That's when the debate was really over. The rest was just frosting on the cake. The writing on this show was always just the best ever on television. I think I'm going to go back and watch my old DVD set of all 7 seasons again since they took it off Netflix in Canada.
One of my favorite lines EVER from the show..............."THE PRESIDENT JUST REMINDED US THAT, COMPLEXITY IS NOT A VICE." The law is complex because complexity cares about more people than simplicity. Because you don't understand it isn't a good enough reason to oppose it.
There's a time for simplicity and a time for complexity - the law should never be too complex for the average citizen to reasonably understand it, but never too simple to fit everyone into a one-size fits all. That's the argument the Ritchie camp did not assert. Having read over the transcript of the episode which I never saw, I could suggest a number of rebuttals he could have used (they never showed his responses, they just left it to the average viewer that nobody could rebut Bartett's argument).
I just watched this show. I never viewed it when it was aired on TV. My first thought, when this fragment came up was: Chris Christie versus Marco Rubio's 25 second memorized speech in a 2016 primary debate. "There it is. There it is, the 25 second memorized speech."
Not only do we not have a presidential candidate like Bartlet, we don't even have a speech writer in presidential politics that is near the talent of Aaron Sorkin. It was also wonderful to see the great Hal Holbrook in this scene.
"Every once in a while there are days that include absolute rights and absolute wrongs but those days almost always include body counts, other than that there aren't many unnuance days" I think this is what needs to be understood. It's a point that I don't think humanity has ever fully grasped as a group but would go a long way in helping us repair the gaps that currently exist.
I fucking LOVE that it's CJ who is the first to realize this and suggest this plan. As soon as she does, they all realize its brilliance, of course, but it's a great foreshadowing to her taking over Leo's position later. As Bartlet says, she's the only name.
I don't agree with much of Hollywood on politics, but I give credit where credit's due. I can't play an instrument, write a novel, or paint a picture but I know (some) art when I see it. Correction - feel it. This show was art.
Much as I love Martin Sheen and the rest of the regulars, I do feel James Brolin gets nowhere near the praise he deserves for a nuanced portrayal of a consummate politico of his kind.
Absolutely, it was flawless. He didn't get many scenes in many episodes but he left a strong impression in every one of them. Every line delivered perfectly, a kind of human carapace but without a human interior, the projection of strength but without any substance. Not easy to do that without coming across as obviously slimy, that oiliness is more convincing if it's subtle. Brolin hit it out of the park
+Peter glen HAHA! I thought the same thing when Bartlett mentioned those '10 Word Answers'! For the life of me, I dont know why people running for a 'high' national office dont use writers, such as Sorkin from West Wing, as their speech writers. I sure as hell would.
Just to let you know why candidates don't talk like this, it's because the media can spin it easily as callous and avoiding the question. People aren't convinced by "it's too complicated to explain in just a few words," even if it's true.
Austin Garrett I was thinking the same thing. It would definitely come off as Bartlett just has no answer and just used colorful words to dodge an answer.
Yeah, this scene is especially brilliant and powerful if you watch the build up to this during the episode. I LOVE the scene with CJ saying "complexity isn't a vice." I agree with the others that Aaron Sorkin's writing abilities are, frankly, so off the charts I have trouble understanding how he does it. What a creative peak he hit with this show.
"The american people know how to spend their money better than the federal government does." I've always been kind of bothered that this answer has 15 words. Still love the scene though.
"You killed me." "You will be back." And there you have what a republic is, and why nothing ever changes in this eternal recurrence of the Zone that we live in. And the crowd clapped, clapped, to a tremendous applause that the walls where still standing.
I hear you, but don't you agree that in attacking even the most complicated problems it's a good idea to start with first principles? For sure ten thousand words might follow the statement of principle, but those first ten, or fifteen, or twenty words are the most important ones. Besides which, the candidates usually have about three minutes for their answers in our so-called debates, so it's unreasonable of Bartlet to ask his opponent for a fully articulated solution to any large problem.
can i just say i would have loved to see Jed Bartlet vs Arnold Vinnick do that live debate in the last season would have been an epic clash of titans because honestly Vinnick beat Matt Santos up in that debate but you can tell in the moment on air force one when they are going to san andreo that these to in a debate would have been legendary
"I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." (Sinking in yet?) "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me."
This is the one thing that a LOT of Americans either lack the intelligence to understand anymore or else simply refuse to accept, not just about politics but about being alive. Life is very seldom if ever easy, simple, clean, beautiful, and fair (and it certainly never stays that way for long) -- and this seems unfortunate on the surface but it actually isn't because it is precisely through the act of struggling with the difficulties, complexities, messiness, ugliness, and injustice of life that we grow and evolve. Easy and simple solutions are usually not effective ones because they approach problems as if they exist in isolation...but whether you like it or not, they don't exist in isolation and they never will because everything is connected to at least one other thing. Denying or ignoring this because it's confusing and intimidating doesn't and won't make it go away -- all it will really do is leave you less able to adapt in response to change as everything must in order to survive. We all live in a vast and incredibly intricate system which is open to change at many levels because change is inevitable -- and not just inevitable, but necessary. Pull on one string, and you'll also pull on whatever strings are attached to that one (as well as whatever strings are attached to those). Yes, the further away you are from the problem at hand, the less impact any change is likely to have on you directly or personally but you'll still feel it eventually in one form or another and nothing you can do will protect you from it completely -- this is the principle behind the Law of Unexpected Consequences.
1:08 - 1:13 "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me." Joe Biden: "I'm the President for all Americans" January 20, 2021, 12:03 pm
Every video I see regarding America is full of these comments about America being the best country with ability beyond the stars. Your patriotism I applaud but it always gets under my skin. I don't see why they have the thinking that we must show our strength so people remember us , why does it matter that a country is outshining other countries, perhaps Americans should just try and improve their country without comparing it with others.
who is here in 2021? Ritchie: it's over me: tearing up. These are the words we should have heard in November 2020 followed by a peaceful transition of power.
I don't think it was the fact that a short answer was given that was specifically the issue: I think it was more to do with the fact that Gov. Richie's answer was basically a catchphrase. It wasn't starting from first principles - he was just giving an answer that could be played as a 20sec clip on a newsreel. As Pres. Bartlet pointed out, the next 10 words were absent. It wasn't that Richie's answer was a lobotomised version of a larger thought, it was just glib soundbite.
When Reagan said "There you go again" (a 4 word answer), Carter's staff were celebrating because they thought Reagan had just cost himself the election. Americans love short simple answers, no matter how complex the problem is.
Yeah, Reagan who was a community college graduate, a sportscaster, an actor, and never wore the uniform, or Carter, with a Masters' Degree in Nuclear Engineering, and an Annapolis graduate, who went inside a nuclear reactor to repair the seals after it melted down.... Hmmm, what a difficult choice.
@@lancer525He kicked Carter's sorry ass and became the 4th greatest Tactical President in history behind Coolidge, Washington and Lincoln. So yeah I'd say it was good 👍
Bartlett is a Political Party all his own. I'd vote for him without a second thought. Just as long as I didn't see Reapers touching down on Earth afterward...
I think Sorkin underwrote Ritchie. It should have been written as a WAY CLOSER fight then it turned out to be in season 4. I would have had Ritchie as a villain on the show since the first episode.
Anyone else notice Abby walking toward the Ritchies with her hand extended? Gracious, welcoming, friendly, and they all are standing there like they're terrified of catching liberal cooties, because they can only think of themselves.
That "whooshing" sound you just heard was the point sailing right over your head, which is typical of those who only think of themselves, like idiotic conservitards who think the left actually does have cooties. What passes as "left" today, is just slightly to the right of Eisenhower. I'm much farther left than that, and I've never had them. Primarily, because like Bartlett, I am an academic. Which means that I know they don't actually exist.
The UK have tried to adopt American style election techniques, such as public, on air debating. Putting it in a short, less than 10 word answer, 'we suck at it'. I used to enjoy politics and the notion of educated people arguing about what is right for us. Now they are simply rented, empty shells that are programmed to just say the opposite thing the guy on other side of the bench just said, and that is sad.
"If the Left don't agree, they shouldn't vote for me" the people who keep criticizing Biden for telling people not to vote for him should listen to this
"If you don't agree with me maybe you shouldn't vote for me" is the most honest answer a politician can give. And yet when he gave it people called him senile. And Americans like to claim they like honest people to be politicians? Mind you he probably is senile but not for that answer.
