Terry Eagleton - The God Debate 

Thoroughly enjoyable and thought-provoking. I guess it is lucky for both me and the audience that I wasn't there in person since I would have found it difficult not to reward the speaker with at least a small chuckle here and there.

It's a shame no one's laughing at his jokes.

The questioners all seemed stuck in the basic Dawkins level questions of scientific evidence for God, like the speaker says it never gets beyond the Yeti or Loch Ness monster. This talk is only a decade old but wow, how of its time it is, especially the audience.

Brilliant thinker, and very humorous to boot

My GOD! What a stiff crowd.

I think the Chile coup was in 1973 but his point is taken; history didn't start or end in 2001 just because it was the US that was attacked

Upon a re-examination of the Q and A, I am astounded that so many established scholars are able to put forth questions that exhibit such a profoundly deep ignorance of Christianity's baseline orthodox positions.

did the guy who asked the first question even listen to the lecture??? or did he read sam harris or dawkins while eagleton was speaking...

48:34 *reason must end somewhere* “One way in which one can see that ones love is not reducible to reasons (though it involves them) is that somebody else can accept all the reasons that you give and not love the person themselves.

Starts at 1:59. Good stuff!

this is brilliant

Watched all of it

The public clearly has no idea who Britney Spears, Bradd Pitt or Lady Gaga are..... sigh. That aside, what a brilliant and at the same time modest and inviting lecture. Quite different from the agressive, over self assured statements Dawkins c.s. shout. As if they trie to shut up the anxiety and doubt in their own minds. If we are ever to understand religion as something that can have value and is NOT an explanation or a narrow defined prescription on how to live your life, what to think, do and feel at any given time, but a way to look at people and to love them, we better listen to professor Eagleton. And if we are ever to escape the nihilism, hypocrisy and absurdity of hyper capitalist society - that put large bombshells under our neatly organized political systems - we better learn that we need the utter humanist values, that Jesus or Marx showed to us, rather than the mechanical and value-free view of society as a wealth producing and consuming assembly of people and resources. People need much more than being a consumer or emplyer/employee, to give their lives a perspective, that makes it worthwhile to keep on living, rather than just breathing, working, eating and crapping. But for that, one has to get away from the desire to prove that God exists and move to a position, in which it doesn't matter wether He exists or not, but that what is told to us by generations long before our time, holds some core values and lessons that still have significance today. To do away with mythology as a doctrine, one does not understand its purpose. And yes, then it becomes opium for the people in order to keep them quiet and obedient. And yes, one has to have read and understand Marx, to comprehend that.

As frustratingly disengaged as the audience was, I wonder if Eagleton wasn’t helping himself in being a little too clever for his own good. This is illustrated by the first question from the floor, which shows that a lot of what he was eloquently communicating was going in one rationalist ear and put the other. Someone like Alister McGrath would have nailed that.

@S0chan "And I am aware that this phrasing might not have been the best but you understand what I mean by it." very well put

Poor guy. So brilliant but ultimately a human who would have preferred the mob to laugh at his jokes.

Excellent camera work.

pretty sure that like, his posturing of the end behind the use of the word like is like pretty accurate yeah

alrigt I giggled at his "yetish" comment XD! An image of God "flitting through the forest" made me laugh XD

Yeah, and then the host praised him on his humorous touches, which was the funniest part; "thanks for all the laughs, offered but not enjoyed by anyone in here."

or to use a more theological term 'just for the hell of it'

It sounds constrained of Eagleton to call September 11th 2001 the "second 9/11". Of course it's true, but if it were such an important point, he should have been able to date it back to the actual year of 1973, and not the historically more elegant 1971, just for rhetoric's sake.

First audience question could maybe have been handled by pointing out the “belief in evidence” itself is “evidence of belief”…

He does refference the book (I'm looking for that specific quote now at 8:13), and he does refference arguments that are in Hitchen's God is not Great (closer to 9). Irreverrant ones (yes, society has improved), but material in the books nontheless. Is it coincedence that he does? And that he's a litterary critic? Very well, kudos. I think I've spent enough time on this argument and I'm willing to conceed to whatever argument is left to be said. Feel free to read the books though, plz

Interesting that right before this I watched a different (or closely similar) version of the same lecture that he did at Yale and the audience LOVED it and was cracking up at all the jokes, this audience was terrifyingly cold, he was NOT popular in this room! American intelligentsia are so warm and fuzzy compared to the Brits lol.

'Unilateral spiritual disarmament' -- Like that phraseology....

"Very solemn audience." 15:51

You tell 'em Dr. Lyndon

as far as i'm aware dawkins usually states things about creation to creationists not anglica theists. who of course generally accept most of scientific understanding.

a brilliant lecture sadly lost upon the people who have been raised on a diet of ditchkins

I don't get it. I'm only 15 minutes in here, but he seems to be railing against the "new atheist" authors for their criticisms being a misunderstanding of this enlightened and educated view of the Bible. Which of course, is not what the vast majority of the believers believe or are even aware of. Obviously, their writings and lectures are entirely against what the vast majority believe, not what this particular scholar thinks about it all. Therefore, why isn't he railing against the believers?

amusing stuff! Thanks!

Tough crowd 😬

Phenomenal.

Terry Eagleton is too intelligent for his time he is too subtle and nuanced for people to hook onto his ideas. People want answers that are certain, including new-atheists. They would say, "I know certainly there is no god", which is the same side of the coin to the theist position "I know for certain that there is a god", logically they two sides of the same coin, as absolute as the other. To say "I do not know, and I am comfortable in not knowing", not only is the source of wisdom, it is the start of science. In other words, it's a shame the wisdom that Terry Eagleton imparts is lost on the idiots in the comment feeds.

I agree completely. He hardly cites anything that either Htchens or Dawkins wrote, but "refutes" them. Granted you can find things that are wrong in both these authors, but I see no refutation here. Mostly ad hominems. His remarks on Postmodernism though, are spot on.

"When religion starts to interfere with the rest of your life, then it's time to 'give it up'..." - TE (Edinburgh)... END

Curious why one would dub this The God Debate! Who is he willing to debate?

Belief in God is for those afraid of the dark ( Hawking) unbelief is for those who are afraid of the light.

It's only a minor point, but he's not really critiquing Fukuyama. The name of the whole topic/debate etc. of course derives from his book, however he did not posit post-ideological pragmatism*. As written in the 1989 article: "[the 20th century] seems at its close to be returning full circle to where it started: not to an 'end of ideology' (...), but to an unabashed victory of economic and political liberalism." * I think you already know this, but just to remind you.

Seems to me there's either a creator/god, like religious people believe, or there isn't, or we can't know. There is no evidence I've ever come across to believe in a creator God. Darwin struck biggest blow against the miraculous creation of life. Science continues to explain phenomenon that once seemed miraculous and there's less and less need for God. As for cultural/artistic significance, that's an interesting realm and can be fun to learn about.

Gwyn Williams. Salvador Allende was not overthrown in 1971 but in 1973

Damn, he said some hilarious shit that nobody laughed @...somebody revive that crowd, I think they're dead!

I don't think he's as much interested in proof of God's existence as he is in the "essence” which is revealed by social practice is the dialectical unfolding of the thing through successively deeper and deeper meanings. Not a final essence which can never be revealed, but the process of revealing ever deeper meanings, if that makes sense? I kinda just think the two different camps are speaking two different languages at each over.

@arktheball I fail to understand what you are getting at. Do you mean I psychoanalyzed someone in my comment? I can't see where.

Tough crowd .....

Good routine, tough crowd. Happens to the best acts.

@REASONINFUSION "As to "less true manners", .. "lucky ties" and "karma" things no less "mystical" than the belief in God" Well that's fair, i need to admit i consider stuff like 'Karma" is not particularly "atheistic", but we're about to confuse 'atheism' with 'skepticism', as long as one does not believe in 'god'.. And though i think we agree more then this discussion shows, i have to persist and say that being a member of the CP does not mean one can not believe in i.e. Karma either ;)

The book he's referring specifically to is Dawkins: The God Delusion. Seeing as he's a literary critic, I would imagine he's reviewing books from hitchens, dennett, and hitchens... As for the ideas inside the book that he's willing to criticise, he doesn't really touch on concepts like the 'religious meme' or anything that I would deem as a 'new-atheism' trait, I'm not seeing it. I've heard these arguments already, and excuse my liberal use of the word 'cliche', but it's been said already.

That is Eagleton for you who was at my university tonight and he was just as pompous and smug . Somebody asked him what should they do if they can't bring themselves to believe the central doctrines of Christianity no matter how hard they tried. His response? "Don't be a Christian! It's not an obligation" Rest of the panel looked at him confusingly. And he goes on about the shortcomings of western liberalism and when I asked him a question about modernity and despair he dismissed it as angsty

I find it somewhat curious that Eagleton makes the point of distinguishing the "more recent 9-11" from the first one: the day of the chilean coup that toppled Salvador Allende which he claims happened in 1971 or 30 years before. The implication is somehow that these two events have something to do with each other, though he does not say what! It so happens said coup happened in 1973, not 71 which does not bode terribly well for Terry's grasp of History...

@vegassilenttype FIRST OF all, he's not a creationist. Second of all, this talk is not an argument or a diatribe against Hitchens/Dawkins, it's a criticism of the recent surge in popularity of 'the god debate'--hence the title.

Ok.. I have no problem that he is contrasting the argument as much of what he attributes to atheist argument has to do with creationism, which is a major problem in the U.S. and that an argument with a more moderate christian would have quite a different style to it's content in some places. What bothers be already within 15 minutes is that he simply rephrases the same assertions used by any other theist as to give it a more reasonable and artistic sound, shown using more subtle fallacies.

@arktheball I don't think this is fair to Dawkins. He does not automatically claim that "religion has never caused anything good". He is way to academic in his thinking to assert such absolutes. He does say that false dogmas are always harmful in the long run, but that's quite different. He also doesn't put all religions in one box, but does concentrate on the two dominant ones, that did quite obviously much harm.

Depending on how you define 'creationist', I could have overstepped my bounds. He is a Theist, and that's probably what I had intended to say, my apologies. As far as him saying anything constructive about the book, I can appreciate that people value his literary critisism, but I don't agree with his position on what he thinks should have been posited the point of the book (as I would most theists), because he's clearly defending (with only cliches) the same old dogma and trying to discredit.

@mindwis3 You got me with the "wrt"!!! Would that be "with regards to"?

@S0chan You see? Believers may have a good sense of humour too! Have a nice week end, friend

I've just watched the same lecture given by the same person, twice, each time under a different title. The Death of Criticism. The God Debate. Shouldn't I ask for my money back?

Not to defend Eagleton's performance here, but I do understand frustrations with "Ditchkens". There is a big difference between defending the validity of atheism and the cynical reflex to say that theism is somehow patently wrong or delusional. Even Hitchens admits the existence of the numinous or transcedent, which puts him a hair's breadth from pantheism. To state that faith is beyond reason is no more irrational than to state that love is. My personal faith, for instance, is atheism.

I like Eagleton for his historical understanding of Marx. But his devotion to his own brand of criticsm has left him unable to understand why so many people wish to be done with god. Dawkins, et al. only jumped into it, saying what was already on the minds of many. Hitchens merely provided courage. People are tired of being forced to deal with injections of god everytime they want to talk about science, responsibility, freewill, cognition, knowledge, ethics, reality, ... how to spend freetime.

Whilst it was interesting, and whilst he's clearly not an outright athiest or a fundamental theist, having never heard anything about him previously, I'm left unclear as to what branch of this wider debate Terry Eagleton represents. Does anyone know? Is he's an agnostic, agnostic-theist, or a ('gentle') theist perhaps? Thanks!

Are we gods? We're certainly playing god. And maybe what we evolve into one day, will become god-like, perhaps with the ability to create entire universes. And maybe that's what religion really is, an outer expression of our god like inner world, wherein infinite potential exists. Human beings are carrying around with them something incredibly powerful - that is to say the potential of god like intelligence. Religion in that sense is similar to the role science fiction plays today, preparing us for our destiny in the stars

09:56 for D*****s on the doctrine of creation.

@victor1eremita Or it may be that the talk just isn't any good. That the speaker utters many meaningless statements and that he has very little in the way of a point. When one stoops to psychoanalyze the person he's debating, that's not generally a sign that one has a very good case.

@REASONINFUSION "In the end, humans seem to need forms of reassurance that only differ to the degree that they are "fantastic". Indeed, and perhaps for atheists, reassurance specifically as to what will happen "In the end", is in a way equally fantastic. Perhaps rather then Communist Party membership, a "true atheist" can better be said to be pretty pessimistic wrt "immortality", but for fame and kids ;) what do you think wrt immortality? Kind regards,

@SilentMike0 You were providing an example there?

54:24 Zizek

You may very well be right, although I sincerely doubt you understand what he's talking about. People who throw around "nuff said" to make a rhetorical point betray ignorance. The truth is, you have no clue what he's talking about, do you?

Oh, I strongly disagree with that statement! I certainly dont 'beleive' in a god, but my position has come about, following the analysis of the facts, and because there is no credible evidence to support that hypothesis. HOWEVER, should credible evidence ever become available, then I'm more than happy to review my position in relation to that evidence; just as I'm prepared to review my position in relation to anything!

@REASONINFUSION "Get it?" sure, that's called confirmation bias, what we are not talking about ;) I agree that being a member of the CP makes it likely you are atheist as well, but nothing more then that. But one does not necessarily follow the other. You could be a Buddhist and a member of the CP for all i know (apart from you claiming you are not Buddhist ;) That membership is not "proof" and neither a "measure" of your "manner" of atheism, and that's all i am saying. Kr,

@arktheball I never disagreed that he is offensive. And you make it impossible to prove you wrong. If you're insulted that's your personal feeling. If I would be a very religious person, I would be maybe insulted too. But my point was that he does not say things like "Religion did never do anything good". You can prove me otherwise with a quote. His arguments are based on facts and followed with logic. As atheist it is logical to argue that forcing a religion on a child is abuse. Mind-abuse.

@bozzie61 interesting

And as far as him 'not arguing for the existence of God', I find that hard to believe based upon his career experience(and he does, watch it again). He seems like he's been neck deep in religion for a very long time (if his wikipedia page has any validity), and he shows the same inability to interpret concepts from the athiest position. Not saying he has to, but it's no more insulting to be misrepresented like this yet again by someone falsely asserting some en-masse athiest agendas.

@arktheball I didn't say he is completely fair. But he stays to facts and reasoning more than his opponents (this vid is case in point). He gives no respect to any religion, and that is hard to accept for many. I did also find him insulting at first. But I think you misunderstand him a bit. He would not attack religion as he does if it would only consist of open minded and friendly people. Unfortunately even today fools and psychopaths are leading the organized religions. Hypocrisy rules.

Speaking of human progress, knocking heads out of the clouds actually serves more for the common good than lofty (and wontonly unverified) notions of the universe. I know its trite by now, but one pair of hands actually does some comparible actions as opposed to one million in prayer; at least on this plane of existence; and if you're going to tell me something that has to do with this reality, you're going to have to know more about how it works than antiquated supernatural mythos.

33:55 ha, he's so annoyed

Why is there anything, rather than nothing at all. Early in ...Sein und Zeit. This has always been the only question. It always will be . The Cosmos will evolve beyond mans contingent ability to understand, infinitely.

I wish he would stop making the mistake of 911 chile being in 71 rather than 73, third time i,ve seen him do this.

SHIVA'S THIRD EYE REVEALS THE TRUTH

So this guy is for those who are jealous or angry at 'the four horsemen'?

No more than you dont have the facts that there is no spagetti monster, or a celestial teapot orbiting the sun!

I would disagree with his view about Ditchkins et al. It's true that they are attacking a very specific religious outlook not held by everyone but it is a prominent view held by many conservative religious people. Belief in a supreme being is the bedrock of faith for many people & I think Eagleton misses this point. Having said that I found him rather ammusing & it's a shame more people didn't laugh at his jokes which I must confess I did quite like.

I read him perfectly as a standard defender of creationism because his opening statement (Hitchens/Boteach for a perfect example of this exact sort of verbal bamboozlery) only refferences the opponent in a cheecky 'Can you believe dawkins said this, and did this? outrageous!?' and makes no actual positive assertion towards anything. As far as 'authoritarianism' goes, I would think all the deaths incurred throughout history without any evidence of the supernatural has a much higher value.

@vegassilenttype His talk is not about the God Delusion, and he's not refuting the arguments of the book (although he clearly is sceptical about the claims Dawkins makes). To be honest, I don;t think you really understand what he's saying at all.

I don't think you can read Eagleton as a defender of creationism. As an admirer of Dawkins (though not Hitchens), I still have a strong sympathy for Eagleton's assertion that their position has an overly-simplistic authoritarianism to it (more so with Hitchens) that counters rather than serves human progress.

That first question was embarrassingly aggressive and ignorant

Professor Eagleton, I'm reading your book "Faith, Reason and Revolution" and I want to thank you very deeply for the wonderful work, you are a bright mind and a warm heart in this world of cynics. And as this conference, really, this is the rudest audience in this world. Why? Atheists simply cannot bear believers. That's all. I won't try in the future to make myself understood. I don't care to what they think. It 's like explaining music to someone born without ears. And heart.

Pinochet's coup happened in 1973.

History always written by the victors, getting fed up with these petty posts.We need openminded people to help the human race reach a greater understanding.of ourselves

*Come on, Terry: the US-backed military coup in Chile took place on September 11, 1973, not 1971!

19:34 "...contradiction of the west's... need to believe and it's...incapacity to do so...."; Eagleton is frequently eager to throw out generalized dialectics. Thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis in reverse with the theoretical synthesis assuming the role of dogmatic theory?

What is funny is how often he tries to be humorous but invariably fails - tough sub

As ever after 5 minutes I'm falling asleep....

Really interesting perspective on the rise of new atheism. I think on the whole I agree with Eagleton's take on Christianity, but watching him defend his belief in God is painful. He seems to flounder around the idea that the veracity of Christianity hinges around some deep "truths" from his own interpretation of Scripture that resonate with him emotionally. IMO this is a rather unfortunate view, given the variety of truly rational ways to argue for God's existence (universal fine-tuning, etc.)

I think you'll notice that people like richard dawkins and christopher hitchens can address an argument without a five minute diatribe on the opponent by name. Of course, this is probably the problem with all creationism. Rather than making a case, it can only attempt to make the opponents seem silly, which if anyone actually listens to the opposition it's plain to see that they do have a case.

I don't see how calling you pretentious is ironic or witty.

of course God exist; but so what? Rather than nothing there is something; that's god..but how does that help if we treat each other and nature like dirt..The something is nature; or god...

@REASONINFUSION Sure, plenty of atheists have sympathies with socialism, but communism? that's not even popular amongst socialists, i never claimed otherwise. "the opposition many religious peoples have to communism!" i've never denied they do... they oppose all kinds of stuff. That's nothing new, i am well aware of that. "atheist for 5 years in the truest manner" truest manner ? are there 'less true manners' ?

ok, I didn't say I agreed with him, I just said he was funny, I actually don't like him much. But your response sounds pretty serious, you should calm down.

Is Terry Eagleton serious? Why is "God" brought back in? Because many believe in a metaphysical, personal God as TRUTH. Has he not visited America? Has he not observed religious fanaticism? Why is he critizing Dawkins and Hitchens, who courageously ask for proof of a metaphysical personal God by many preachers and believers, who should be asked for justification for such a belief.