Test Optional: Who Does it Hurt?

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Most colleges and universities have moved towards Test-Optional policies, both as a response to the COVID-19 pandemic and as a movement towards more flexible admissions. Over 90% of the top 250 ranked colleges had test-optional policies in the 2021-2022 application cycle. We know this helps people who don't test well. But who does this policy hurt? Check out this video where Brooke discusses several groups of people a test optional policy hurts.
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19 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 114

@RFJersey 2 года назад

Test optional hurts top students that are middle class. Grade inflation at many high schools is out of control and standardize testing is sometimes the only way of standing out.

@kamronramelmeier9264 2 года назад

Honestly I’m really concerned about the issue with grade inflation. That’s another problem with college applications.

@SG-jb1xw 2 года назад

Makes me cry reading this

@gheller2261 2 года назад

That is true. On the other side of the coin, strong standardized testing absolutely benefits kids who faced academic challenges or didn't quite get it together until the 11th and 12th grade.

@isasanchez1652 Год назад

what about lower class?

@larry7124 Год назад

Grade inflation sounds like what they use to call social promotion

@FM-ty7jt Год назад

My daughter went test optional got into the Ivy League. She also receive the presidential, chancellor, and pride scholarships.

@owencooper8989 Год назад

Which school(s)?

@estherbradley3218 7 месяцев назад

Congratulations to your daughter. My daughter also went test optional and got her dream school, Go 🐻! ED ‘27

@bpxl53yewz29 2 года назад

I think colleges wanting a Wow factor hurts those without economic means and colleges should open their eyes to that. Without resources, it's hard to do all the extra activities, etc. colleges are impressed by. The SATs/ACTs are the fairest part of the whole corrupt process.

@joemiler8645 2 года назад

The Wow factor is a spectrum. If you go to a wealthy school I think admissions officers expect something very significant. If you go to an under funded school the Wow factor does not need to be that exceptional. You are judged in the context of your school

@reedkellner6447 2 года назад

Judging people in their own context requires more of that elite college than just going with the well-heeled applicant. It will always be easier for the college to say "Gold medal winning sailor, equestrian, etc..." than "Accomplished equestrian--but you should see this kid's background, not one other person in their neighborhood even owns a horse..." A single test that everyone has to show up and take on their own... without their tutors standing over their shoulder, without Mommy and Daddy's lawyers applying pressure to the school, or the teacher... Is always going to be fairer. It's not fair. It's still biased. But it's the best tool we've got right now, and the answer is not to do away with it. The answer is to increase access to prep resources. It's the closest thing we've got to a level playing field. It's literally a standardized test.

@chrislee367 2 года назад

@@joemiler8645 Yes and no. Exeter and Andover still have about a third (arguably their top third) in the Ivy+ (Oxford, Cambridge, Stanford, UChicago, Duke, Caltech, etc. plus the 8 schools of the Ivy League). Are those people pretty amazing? Yes. I interview for MIT in the Milton, MA area. I'm assigned to Milton Academy (arguably a top 10 college preparatory school in the US) and Milton High School. It is overall an upper-middle class city. The average Milton Academy applicant for MIT is among the top public school applicant. My sense (based on the number of admissions to various schools), MIT does consider context more, and some other schools consider context less.

@hlowrylong 2 года назад

But the WOW factor can be the discussion you have in your essay that discusses what you accomplish without having resources, or what jobs you took while earning excellent grades. College admissions folks know what some kids endure - and they absolutely take that into account. Don’t sell yourself short! The SAT/ACT isn’t always that fair - how about folks who can afford a tutor and classes?

@bpxl53yewz29 2 года назад

@@hlowrylong Idk. I guess I’m really tired of that argument that the SATs aren’t fair because test preps for the wealthy, etc. I’m low income, technically poverty level, and studied free online materials and 1 book I bought (probably less than $15). I worked really hard and scored near perfect (800 on math). But I know my ECs were not impressive to the top colleges. At my school, even clubs cost hundreds of $$. (They pass on fees, buses, building utilities, etc. to students)

@user-xh1lr3yo3y 2 года назад

This totally makes sense. Only the kids with good SAT scores will submit SAT scores. So, the median scores at competitive schools will rise. On top of that those who count on test-optional will apply to more colleges, because they think they have good GPA, but that's what everyone else with bad SAT and Good GPA are thinking. The system also allows colleges to admit wealthy students with crappy records with out hurting the statistics. So, the colleges end up having high average SAT and high rejection rate. I see this illusions happening with super-scoring the SAT. The difference between super-scored SAT and single high score is about 50 points. So, for those who take SAT enough times, it doesn't matter, because the rise in your SAT score would be about the same as everyone else's. But those who can afford to take SAT once, their super-scored result would be the same as single high score. So, super-scoring hurts those who cannot afford to take SAT many times. But it makes the colleges look more generous (even though they are not) and inflates their average SAT scores.

@dans3182 2 года назад

Great video! I would love to see a video on competitive honors colleges or honors programs. As selective schools are becoming more and more competitive, these programs can be a great alternative to students.

@brookifyd 2 года назад

Great idea! Thanks Dan

@lizabethamato7897 2 года назад

Great assessment -I don't understand why no one is talking about this!! Thanks for making this video.

@tonchimatta 2 года назад

I really needed this video, thanks!

@kristenreynolds1572 2 года назад

Thanks Brooke! I'd love a video about IB programs. Advantages, odds to getting into competitive schools when completed

@sophiathephirst 2 года назад

brooke you described it exactly :(( more stress, not sure where I'm getting in, applied to 20 colleges :((((

@Loveitmore1 2 года назад

Thank you for this very important video.

@intekhabkazmi4921 2 года назад

Can you please make a video on why so many high caliber kids are getting deferred this year, please explain the Yield Protection logic and impacts the applicants. Thank you !!

@littleleakyleakythere 2 года назад

Even though I'm done with college admissions and have been for a while I've been getting reccomended all sorts of videos like this and wow, regular college application seems like a nightmare. For a lot of reasons I went in without great grades, missing "required" classes (I only have 1 year of math for example) and no test scores at all, only applied to 4 schools but I got in to all of them and got full ride scholarships for all of them as well. I understand why people do it the traditional way but it seems so stressful.

@christianapoleon670 Год назад

what schools did you apply to?

@oe-r66 2 года назад

Thank you very much for this useful video !!! Bravo ! From a parent of a French student

@elijahdavis1827 2 года назад

Very very helpful thank you

@FarbotBurunetNia 2 года назад

Thank you. Professor Nia.

@sophiathephirst 2 года назад

and yeah, that's exactly the other thing, I studied all of October to try and get a 35 and felt like I lost time that I could have used to do other things

@sophiathephirst 2 года назад

I feel like in the wow factor sense I'm not ahead, I found out about wow factors Junior year and so many opportunities were closed due to covid. not an excuse, just the reality, but it's frustrating.

@bpxl53yewz29 2 года назад

Same here. Everything was closed all of my junior yr and part of sophomore. I feel like the only kids who had great activities or Wow factors (who are seniors now) were those who didn't believe in Covid or masks. Are colleges really that out of it that they don't know that?

@Roman-cu7zh 2 года назад

Our counselor told us the SAT was becoming obsolete and I really regret listening to this advice since I didn't do as well as I could have on my SAT 😓

@gheller2261 2 года назад

Your counselor is wrong. Not only is there too much money to be made by the testing companies, but once we get through the pandemic period, things will go back to where it was before.

@ArtIsDrawing 2 года назад

Just go to community college and transfer! ITs the same thing!

@Roman-cu7zh 2 года назад

@@ArtIsDrawing I'm considering that

@gmh471 2 года назад

@@ArtIsDrawing It's not as easy as that. It depends on whether someone wants to end up. Sure, if you want to attend a state university or less selective private college or university, community college is a good option to save money or to rehabilitate one's academic record. But, if one is shooting for the more selective colleges and universities, transferring in (whether from a community college or another 4-year college) is often more difficult than applying out of high school.

@kalebbradburn5298 2 года назад

Got into tulane as an honors scholar thanks to u !

@kate-snyder 2 года назад

congratulations!!!

@YoungPhysicistsClub1729 8 месяцев назад

It certainly hurts international students, especially a few specific countries where extracurriculars isn't really a thing. So, standardised tests are the only thing that can make one stand out

@MandoIsSupaFly 2 года назад

man i hate the college process the past two years. Its ok though i alr applied to 21 schools with a strong application imo. Im gonna pray i get accepted somewhere nice. Now ima enjoy the rest of senior year and not stress too much now.

@RFJersey 2 года назад

Stop complaining, it’s annoying.

@januariocastro7871 2 года назад

Thanks for speaking the truth, particularly regarding the freedom without boundaries that colleges have to apply a "Holistic" admissions approach to their advantage. I think high school students need to continue viewing ACT / SAT as a potential WOW FACTOR in their application process and challenge themselves to achieve the highest scores possible.

@schokoladenritter7969 Год назад

I check basically EVERY SINGLE one of the boxes.

@Beast-xd3bz 2 года назад

Great video.

@organichotdog3807 2 года назад

Brooke, I tried to get my kid to prep more for the SAT, but she was more interested in maintaining her class rank and GPA. She thinks being valedictorian or salutatorian is more important than the SAT, so she prioritized schoolwork (which includes a bunch of AP classes) and didn't have time to study hard for the SAT. Her SAT scores were good, but not fantastic, so she didn't submit them to the top schools on her list, only to her safety schools. Maybe she's right. I don't know. I had to step back and let her do her own thing, as I didn't want to put more stress on her. Hopefully her strategy will pay off. We'll see in a few months. By the way, I love your videos.

@tanushbhatt1419 2 года назад

As a kid who's parent lets me do my own thing, its the best thing a parent can do when it comes to academics

@justintime7351 2 года назад

I respect u letting them do their own thi g but as long as ur delivery when giving advice Is good, pushing some ideas across can be alright. We don't know everything by senior year. Just show u want what's best for them and hopefully they will respect it

@organichotdog3807 2 года назад

@@justintime7351 Totally agree. While I couldn't force her to study more for the SAT, I did help a lot with researching colleges. I also made it clear that I wasn't going to provide financial support for majors that had few job prospects after graduation. I was also able to convince her to apply to a couple of safety schools that she wouldn't have otherwise. It's definitely a balancing act because she does think she knows everything!

@SupertutorTV 2 года назад

She has to live with her results-- going test optional but having a great GPA can work really well right now at many in state honors programs and merit programs. If that is a route that interests here I would encourage that. And schools are different in their emphasis. If she is interested in UCs she's in a great position.

@bryceodom3386 2 года назад

My problem is not with the standardized test but with the idea that every person taking these test go in with the same level of knowledge, especially of math. I mean that there are high schools in Georgia that offer ALL AP classes and some even offer Multivariable calculus (how? I don’t know).There are also colleges in Georgia that have NO AP physics classes and math wise only go to AP Calc AB (my high school). The point is while the SAT may only really require, if I remember correctly, knowledge of trig, basic algebra, and maybe basic calc. The way the SAT is set up is as a higher order thinking test and a test of speed. In harder college level classes like Multi and even just AP level Physics students are forced to think at a higher level and are just exposed to harder level math questions, making them better at taking the test than students who, not for lack of trying, don’t have the same opportunities.

@bryceodom3386 2 года назад

Not to discourage or brag(cause I hate telling people this), but I go to like one of the top engineering schools in the country ( I’m a biochem major but there is still crazy smart professors who teach) with getting a 1350 on the SAT and they still let me in. Just for context the AVERAGE SAT score at Georgia Tech is a 1465. I came into this school behind because there are kids(my age) who are doing my major and another major and are going to graduate at the same time as me because they took/ were able to take sophomore level college AP classes in high school and came in as juniors in college. Also, Tech is really picky about transfer credits, ESPECIALLY physics credits. My point of all this is to not discourage but hopefully let kids in high school know that their probably behind if they don’t go to a big city school.

@sujan2504 Год назад

@@bryceodom3386 you mind if I ask for some help with my applications I got a 1360 and I’m stressing it’s not enough

@bryceodom3386 Год назад

@@sujan2504 I could help you best i can but i really feel like I got in on a wish and a prayer. You got snapchat?

@lilcurry4578 Год назад

@@bryceodom3386 ya my snap is atsujang2016 thanks so much bro

@krustykrew106 Год назад

@@bryceodom3386 am I really this screwed, I got a 900 and everyone is composing about 1300’s or 1200’s

@bill-mckenna 2 года назад

Some HR departments are reluctant to hire from Ivy’s now… With the idea of helping HS students...should we be concerned about the new changes to the SAT/ACT? What has made colleges in recent years (BEFORE 2020) say that tests don't matter; meaning they're now optional!? Some feel Finland to be the gold standard of educational systems. They have a Finnish matriculation exam at the end of High School. Their scores become the standard for which college they attend; the UK, and most countries in the world, have standardized tests-no “option out” with any of these countries. Why would HR departments do this?

@isabelds4093 Год назад

Duke University is test opitional this year ?

@gracedlm Год назад

so if theres a kid with the same exact stats as me extra curricular, and equally good essays(hypothetically) but they applied with a test score? who would get in... that's my biggest question

@rehmanhaciyev4919 2 года назад

the most important video I have seen in the last month

@zimz1096 Год назад

Except for the class of 2021, test optional is a very bad policy. Grade inflation is so bad everywhere and the biggest problem is unlike money, grades have limits. That’s why there are weighted classes but the weights don’t make kids today smarter than 40yrs ago, it just increases the scale used to measure smarts.

@albinaerbolatova22 2 года назад

College board should drop the sat bcs its a gross business for rich kids.

@puppypower1322 2 года назад

Well, not that simple. Dropping SAT doesn't help either, probably worse, because it means more subject measures in the admission process. It takes even more resources to "beef up" the resume than studying for the test. Standardized test is comparably more objective, not perfect, but still by far the best measure we have.

@euphoricallyboba6057 2 года назад

just make colleges accessible to everyone. why don't we do that? T-T (that way you can eliminate the test process, lower competition, and our population can actually get some quality education)

@mysterysecret6815 2 года назад

They are accessible to everyone though. Unless you pretend that top 20 schools are the only schools that exist.

@misscoppin Год назад

I would love to hear your perspective on how this impacts marginalized students.

@SupertutorTV Год назад

It makes them think they'll have a shot at great schools so they're more likely to apply (good) but drives down overall admission rates (depressing) and ultimately makes space for the edge cases of students who can game the system (typically kids with resources who don't have the scores but have some wow factor)-- a few marginalized kids who are amazing story tellers or get a little help somehow in the process are going to have a leg up--

@davidrenton Год назад

@@SupertutorTV Amazing Story tellers surely University should be about allowing the most able, the brightest to achieve their potential , having a leg up , no it's discriminating against people who have the ability. A society that does not value merit, is a society that will die. When you take a trip on a Plane , do you want the pilot to be qualified or have been given a leg up because they are an 'amazing story teller' (whatever that means). when you get a plumber , electrician for your home do you wish to give someone a leg up , or get someone who can do the job.

@jackieyou4760 2 года назад

Please just let me enjoy my senior year :(

@thetrue_tcg6960 2 года назад

ok, so yale has test optional for 2021-2022 cycle. does this mean that if I apply in the fall this year, i won't have to put a test score?

@Darkjnr5 2 года назад

Yes…but deadline is over for Yale

@gheller2261 2 года назад

Don't be fooled. Schools like Yale are not as test optional as they claim to be.

@thetrue_tcg6960 2 года назад

@@gheller2261 but I wouldnt be required to put a test, right?

@gheller2261 2 года назад

@@thetrue_tcg6960 If a school is test optional, submitting scores is not required. But I am wondering why you are so reluctant. I assume you mean you will be applying for 2022-23.

@_MIMIMOO_ 2 года назад

Hi Brooke, I am an international student who has applied to several schools in the top 25. I’m not exactly sure if this is how it works but since so many admitted students chose to defer entry or take a gap year last year due to everything being online, does it mean schools would have to admit less people this year who are graduating high school this year since they have to accommodate for those who got in last year?

@jimkiser1429 2 года назад

I am a SAT Math tutor. Brooke is dead right in this vid. This whole move to minimize the importance of standardized testing for admissions is only going to hurt the USA's future. Think about it. Our students in the USA finish in third world territory on the PISA test. China always finishes number one. Does this not bother ANYONE but me? The SAT or ACT is the ONLY objective criteria for admissions. All the other criteria are subjective, and as Brooke states so rightly, Universities use this FACT for their own financial benefit. I am even a little more hard core than Brooke, and feel that their should be a series of standardized tests used to objectively rank students for the elite Universities. Why? Because we are competing with the WORLD. And if we DON'T send our very best students to our very best schools, we are gonna lose that battle.

@chucklesme2023 2 года назад

Objectively gobble my yam yam Jim

@christianavancena7832 2 года назад

I think the key term here is the holistic admissions process. The sucess of a student in the real world, at least within the US, often does not depend on the students ability to do well on a subject limited test. A students passion and effort may go towards a specific subject of interest which often cannot be conveyed by through these subject limited tests. This is not to say that these standardized tests should be discounted as they do help admissions gage a students ability to complete work, however, I do not believe there should be much emphasis on these tests as it does not represent the whole picture. Hence the word HOListic.

@jimkiser1429 2 года назад

@@christianavancena7832 , what you say is most certainly true, but that could only be determined "after the fact". But universities can't know that. All they can TRULY know about a candidate is their scholastic record to date. Thanks for answering. Truth is, in a perfect world, you are absolutely correct, 100%.

@jimkiser1429 2 года назад

@@chucklesme2023 , could I do that subjectively instead ... hehe. Thanks for the humor ...

@christianavancena7832 2 года назад

@@jimkiser1429 Would that be taking into account the personal essays, activities list, supplemental essays, etc? I'm currently a senior in high school and I've applied 20 different colleges so far. I feel that I have poured my personality and life story into my application and that it accurately represents, for the admissions officers, where my passion and efforts lie. Along with this, more often than not, colleges provide its applicants with an "interview" opportunity. I put that into quotation as the people that have interviewed me so far have approached the "interview" like a friendly conversation in which I have been able to further represent my intentions, passions, and efforts. I think as colleges find more ways to dig into who somone is as a person (ie. through essays, supplemental materials, interviews, etc), things like standardized tests wont weigh in as much as colleges will have a good idea of how passionate and hard-working someone is.

@unchartedsteppes7138 2 года назад

to :weary:

@JakeRogers17 2 года назад

Damn you seem pissed

@gheller2261 2 года назад

This video is indicative of the silly game that college admissions has become. Fact is, there is no evidence that kids who attend the "elite" college have any greater professional success than students of comparable ability who attend any one of hundreds of reputable schools. And yet we are creating unbelievable anxiety for our kids. All for ego and bragging rights. That we are even talking about kids who score 1500 on the SAT killing themselves to try for 1550 is beyond ridiculous.

@Marie-hz8ce 2 года назад

Could you speak a little slower? You can be hard to follow. Even if it’s interesting…

@SilentJnation 2 года назад

Test optional gives equal opportunity for every student, I think.

@RFJersey 2 года назад

Nope, there are already colleges available for every level of student.

@aminenazih6734 2 года назад

@@RFJersey nah u tripping brodie

@RFJersey 2 года назад

@@aminenazih6734 Not tripping at all, test optional is a way for underperforming student (especially ones at grade inflated high schools) to weasel their way into top schools. This hurts the top students that actually put the time and effort.

@aminenazih6734 2 года назад

@@RFJersey Not everything is abt tests dude. Have good LORs, essays, and a good spike and variety in ECs. It ain't that deep

@Maddie-pf5db 2 года назад

@@aminenazih6734 not everyone has access to “wow” factor ec’s like research because they grow up in a rural area but everyone does have access to free act/sat practice tests and can work they’re up to a good test score. Also, people with enough money can pay for essay help - not so equal opportunity anymore especially when it can be so hard to find good essay advice if you don’t have a sob story or founded an organization that raised thousands of dollars. Test scores are a lot more equitable than you might think