[TF2] Just What Even Is A Subclass? 

I think the "demoknight is the only subclass" argument makes sense on one major point: it is the only subclass deliberately made by Valve themselves.

Maybe the real subclass is the friends we made along the way

>expected a video on subclasses >got a video on taxonomy >still very entertained Tis a simple life, for a fish enjoyer.

You’re right, gun spy isn’t a subclass It’s a *_DOMCLASS_*

I like how Fishstick’s solution for the definition of “subclass” is the exact same as jan Misali’s solution for the definition of “paradox”

the way i see it you enter the realm of subclass when you can no longer fill the same roles as the stock loadout. pybro can do everything stock pyro can do perfectly well, he can set enemies on fire, extinguishes team mates, has crazy close range DPS, he reflects projectiles, clears stickies, checks for spies. phlog pyro is more of a sub class, since the phlog disables air blast entirely, there are now things that stock pyro does that you can't.

To me, "subclasses" are just... evolved callouts/descriptors Saying 'demonight on flank' is a lot easier then saying 'demoman with shield and sword and boots on flank', and conveys a lot more (very important) information then 'demoman on flank' 'Trolldier tutorial' is a lot easier then 'guide to using rocket jumper and market gardener' Etc, etc

I'd just have to fall back on the old pornography definition style of "I couldn't define it for you, but I know it when I see it." If I look at a player and think, "Oh, that's a Fat Scout" or "Pyroshark in the sewers" before I think the words Heavy or Pyro, I know I'm looking at a subclass.

BEHOLD, a subclass!

for those who don't know about the tree part what we call "trees" do not have the same origin. Trees many are completely unrelated plants, it's if we called butterflies and birds and bats exactly the same thing just because they fly. All that so-called trees have in common are their traits and appeariance, but not same genetic origin.

from the start of the video i knew taxonomy would come at some point, we've been having this conversation for decades

Remember that Uncle Dane teached us that Battle Engie is a mindset too, like Pybro

The art of the art of the subclass

i think its a class that likes subway

The part with the plot twist of the demoknight analysis that was actually a trolldier analysis was really funny, and also, the editing is now better than ever; i can sense some real improvement here, Fish! Great job.

I wonder how nobody is talking about the penis scout subclass in minute 6:25

In the words of some smart guy: "tree" is not a group, it is a strategy.

I feel like subclasses are just socially accepted alternate loadouts or gameplans. So, playing a different way is AWAYS considered a different strategy, but once that becomes commonly used, to the point it gets named by the community either due to the playstyle, or interesting loadout. It then becomes a subclass. (The fact most it not all of them have nicknames shows that). It's basically a title given by the players, not a strict definition

I love how this has shades of Taxonomy in general. Like what even is a species man Edit: TAXONOMY MENTIONED

Demoknight TF2 always seemed to me to be the gold standard of what a subclass is. Not much else really changes a class around as much as that, but simple changes in mindset or weapon selection's can, and people simply do what seems fun and/or silly to sorta match that level of different intended gameplay. Holiday punch pootis pows only? Sure, why not. Charge shot only Cow-Mangler soldiers? No one's stopping you. Reconaissance Cloak & Dagger spy? Go for it. Run & Gun Widowmaker Engi? Some folks love it. It's all so unorthodox and is what makes TF2 so great.

From the "Demoknight is the only subclass" camp, let me try to put down the line with hybrid-knight and trolldier: 1) Hybrid Knight *is* Demoknight, because the grenade launcher is an accessory to your main offensive tool in both Demoman and Demoknight. The grenade launcher's presence or absence does not change how the (sub)class fundamentally works in either case. It's like calling "Jarate Sniper" a subclass to call "Hybrid-Knight" a subclass. 2) Trolldier is a challenge playstyle, and not a subclass, because market gardening remains a critical and important skill for all soldiers whether they're using the rocket jumper or not. Trolldier is in the same category as Battle Medic with Blutsauger or Gunspy with the amby.

I was originally in the "subclass is when you use a loadout that drastically changes the way you play" boat at first, but after pointing out literally everything, I realize the error of my ways and now I want to crawl back into the ocean.

I’d describe a subclass as a loadout made that benefits but also forces you into a specific play style. As an example, you can do a troldier-like playstyle with liberty launcher and market gardener but that doesn’t force you into that playstyle of market gardening. Swap to the rocket jumper and it does force you into market gardening while benefiting that playstyle with 0 self damage For battle engi, you can go for a battle engi playstyle with any wrench, but you aren’t forced into it and can change playstyle by still upgrading buildings. Mini sentries can’t be upgraded though so you’re stuck with it but the mini sentries also benefit the battle engi playstyle.

Demoknight is an only subclass because it's the only one who has variety. You can be different demoknights, but Trolldier is only one.

We've run out of weapons to talk about so now we turn to philosophy.

You’ve successfully convinced me that all is fish.

Demoman Grenade Launcher Subclass

"Back Scatter on the way!" "Got a Cloak and Dagger in the area!" "Flock of Turtles over here!" "Quick Fix on the Huntsman!" "Hostile Kritzkrieg nearby!" "Pybro in the Nest!" "Bear, Gator, shark and Eagle are charging the water!"

Huntsman sniper and demo knight felt like the only intentional sub-classes by Valve. I'm still mad that Heavy didn't get a primary that changed his mode of operation

The existence of the subclass implies the existence of the domclass.

Seeing demokmight as the only “true” subclass is a good meter for the thing. Using “true” as “inarguable”. Like managing charge and bash is so different from sticky traps or spam that it is obviously a subclass. While Hybridknight is not a subclass, since the main damage dealer is still charge and bash, but you keep a pipe option and forgo some maneuverability. A change in class play style, instead of a subclass. But the only way to define these things is with fuzzy definitions, so it’ll never be clean borders.

my take is that demoknight having weapons designed specifically for him and his playstyle should just bring him up to actual full class, with hybrid knight being the subclass. and if you really think about it, it fits. demoman has 2 primaries, so having 2 classes is just continuing the pattern

This got sooo nerdy and I'm 101% here for it

If you think trying to categorize what does and doesn't qualify as a fish is a nightmare, then, if for no other reason than your own sanity, do not subject yourself to the rabbit hole that comes with trying to figure out what the fuck a worm is.

I think a subclass should be defined around how the most popular play-style of the class is. As for Demoknight, i think calling it the only subclass is putting the bar too high, since it's the closest thing to a tenth class we have in the game. And sorry fish, the nerd in me has to speak, Reptile is invalid and Sauropsid remains supreme.

0:30 ahem, assault rifle

man that transition at 4:50 was great 👍 hope you're cross country trip goes well fish!!

Absolutely love the melee music, and you had great points, and the jokes were pretty good. Solid A-tier, well done FSOAS.

Trolldier isn't a subclass like demoknight cause you still keep your rocket jumping and stock melee (but can now crit on demand) all for not dealing damage with your primary or secondary Demoknight gives you multiple passives, a completely new mobility tech and more health (along with more effective health through resistances). This combined with the fact that demoknight requires a fundamentally different mind set and skills to stock demo if you're good a soldier then you'll be good at trolldier but if you're good at demo you're probably not gonna be good at demoknight

I fall in the following camp: For something to be a subclass, it needs to be a loadout or a set of loadouts that significantly hamper the main playstyle of a class while introducing, or significantly elevating the viability of, an alternative playstyle. Most "subclasses" that fall outside of this are just alternate playstyles, or as you called them "mindsets". There are therefore only 4 "subclasses" that I would actually consider subclasses (in order of most clearly a subclass to least clearly a subclass): -Demoknight: Base demo is a combat class that focusses on explosives from either his primary or secondary weapon to do the bulk of his damage and do crowd control, while Demoknight is a pick class that rushes at people with a big sword. You can't play like a base demoman because you don't have any of your explosives. Trolldier: Base soldier is a combat class that does the bulk of his damage by shooting rockets at people from, preferably, a medium distance. Trolldier trades all that damage for a big boost to mobility and becomes a pick class. You can't play like base soldier because your rockets can't kill enemies anymore. Huntsman: Base sniper is a pick class that prefers to stay at long range and is heavily rewarded for his mechanical skill, while huntsman starts leaning towards a combat class that prefers medium range and is heavily rewarded for predicting enemy movement (and getting lucky). Playing like a base sniper isn't viable, because you are way less effective at such long distances. Battle Engineer: Base engineer creates an anchor for his team to hold on to an area with powerful defensive buildings, while Battle Engineer trades the building that's most essential to holding an area, for a much weaker building that allows him to more effectively push forward into enemy lines. Playing like a base engineer is less viable, because your mini sentry just isn't very effective at holding back enemy pushes and can barely be considered an anchor point. If the "subclass" isn't mentioned above, it's lacking a key feature for me to consider it an actual subclass, a few examples: Hybrid Knight: The point of Hybrid Knight is kind of to not be a subclass, a Hybrid Knight wants to dabble into some of the Demo Knight kit, without giving up their powerful explosives. Since they hold on to their grenade launcher, there is nothing stopping them from playing like a regular demoman. Fat Scout: This is an example of what I'd consider a "playstyle" and not a "subclass", there is nothing about their loadout that forces them to play without their minigun. Caber Jumper: While yes, the loadout does reduce the viability of your main playstyle, because it gets rid of your 2 main explosive weapons, the loadout does not elevate an alternative playstyle, I would consider this a "handicap" not a "subclass'. Dragon's Fury: while yes, it does completely change the feel of the class, your playstyle ends up staying the same, like base pyro, you still close the distance to enemies to take them out with your high-damage, but limited range weapon.

Amazing analysis, I am so happy that Fish is using his zoology knowledge for TF2. Wish more people did that kinda thing.

But fish stick on a stick a subclass is a subclass you can’t say it’s only half.

As a taxonomy/cladistics nerd the analogy with the linguistics of vertebrate biology perked my ears up; Really did not expect to hear that in a TF2 video. Nice stuff fellow fish 👍

The ch in concheror is pronounced like a K. The shell he's blowing on is a conch, as in conch chowder. It's a play on words to sound like conquerer. Get it?

Anything can be a subclass as long as it makes you happy to use it.

I find that setting them into those four categories is actually perfect. I would say it's mostly mindset and playstyle, but agree that it's practically anything. You can make a name for every combo loadout, "Support Soldier" with a banner and whip, "Support Scout" with milk and FoW, "Brawler Heavy" with steak and any melee, etc. The one thing I say that makes them those distinct things is that they all rely on a certain gimmick. But then we get a different definition of "gimmick" or different gimmick missions.

Honestly if valve just let Heavy equip the shotguns in his primary slot AND his secondary slot, Fat Scout would be a genuine subclass. That way he could have both a Shotgun and a Sandvich at the same time, which essentially forces him to play differently instead of just having him ignore his Minigun like current Fat Scout.

8:26 birds are technically also reptiles

The marriage of the two topics of taxonomy and subclass discussion was quite entertaining. Also, as a wise man once said: "I cannot teach you about the mushrooms."

Im very glad you get to cover these topics fish,the way you explain is entertaining and very informative as well,if only more content creators were like you

Here is my take on Subclass: A change in playstyle prominent enough to be recognized by the wider community The core of classes in practice are to communicate what a player should expect in one or two words, soldiers fire rockets and might come at you from the sky, spies will be trying to sabotage your engies and subtitle take out you or your teammates, and medic will sit behind their team and heal. You would call out a subclass when these norms are broken in a way that happens regularly enough to become a recognizable pattern A demoknight and trolldier are a subclass because they deviate in a specific enough way and with enough regularity to get their own designation Ultimately this “definition” is loose as it depends purely on “memes” shared around the community but it’s the best I’ve got

I think Uncle Dane's argument of "Battle Engie isn't a subclass, it's a mindset" is basically how it works for all subclasses, it's just how you want to play, and it's a simple easy way to call out what role you're trying to play. You hear "Engie on the front Lines" you think it's easy pickings. You hear "Battle Engie on the front lines" you start looking for sentries on flanks and be ready for a Frontier Crit.

Welcome to what I like to call "FSoaS learns about the hell scientists go through in regards to our entire existence: TF2 Edition!"

there are two kinds: 1. good subclass: play like its a new class because of weapons 2. gimmick: play this way 4 funnies

To add to the confusion: Hybrid Knight has several niches. First leans towards usual Demo - use pills for damage and melee for back-up; shield is for repositioning. Second leans towards Knight - use melee for damage and pills for back-up; shield is for charging people. They can also overlap, creating true Hybrid that uses pills and melee equally, but from what I've seen, most people do lean one way or the other. Also, there are even smaller subclasses of Deepstrike Demo, Paratrooper Demo and Stickie Knight. First uses training stickies to cover half the map and flank the enemy, which plays a bit different from regular Demo (its often a kamikaze pick-off attack, extra-aggressive roll-out or one-way flanking trip when you really need to distract the enemy team and you don't care about playing safe). Second is pretty self-explanatory and is used to spam stickies from above. And the third either uses booties for extra health and play as normal Demo without pills or uses training stickies to leap behind enemy lines with melee. You'd be surprised how different these three can feel compared to usual Demoman or Demoknight.

I think a subclass's validity is directly proportional to how catchy the name is. Demoknight? Sure. Fat scout? Eh, alright. Trolldier? Nah.

Great job on the editing for this one, you really stepped up your game!

Everyone asks what a subclass is; but nobody asks what a domclass is.

The end really tied it together, good vid fish!

Your editing skills have improved quite a bit, it’s nice to look at and easy to understand, keep it up

The main thing I got from this video is that FishStick hates Lungfish.

Fish: Subclass Captions: Subass

what is a subclass? what is love? baby dont hurt me.

My personal definition: If you change your class's role on the team and the new role requires you to spam one or more non-stock weapons, it's a subclass.

This is an excellent video, my favorite commentary on this subject I've heard so far

This is probably the most philosophical video FishStick has made.

I love this style of video, where you dive deep into a topic. Keep it up fish, content keeps getting better and better with each upload!

Wonderful video man, i think you perfectly encapsulated what a subclass is and did well defining things that are inherelty tough to define. I also loved the fungus conparison between the different types of subclasses. Fuckin fungi bein so painful to define...

I did not expect this to be the video where my intense interests in biology and tf2 overlapped but HOLY SHIT AM I HERE FOR IT! Very good video fish thx :)

"just a bunch of dorks in lab coats trying to figure out if we're fish or not"

I for one found this resolution very satisfying. Thank you Fish

subclass to me is just a way of changing how you play that class in a way that isn't just a a number modification that changes how you deal damage based on a specific condition (etc. setting enemies on fire to deal mini crits, right click charge does minicrit mega explosion, etc.). Stuff like fatscout isn't a subclass, that's regular heavy. I'd argue that the sandwiches are more of an actual subclass since they change how you interact with the map, as healing on the spot makes you tank better while on the frontlines, but also makes you a minor support where you can help give hefty healing towards a teammmate (or minor instant healing if you go with the banana or chocolate), Steak Heavy is also a subclass that necessitates a brawler or assassin playstyle as it forces you into melee range. Soldier Knight is a unique subclass mostly revolving around using the zatoichi and pairing it with the rocket jumper and any of the banners, encouraging you to engage with the enemy to score a kill

Great video, Elephant On A Stick! Can't wait for the next one.

My way of thinking about Subclasses falls similarly into splitting it, but also combining it. It’s anything that breaks the mold for the intended behavior of the class. So, Demoknight not only for the sword and shield, but because that sword and shield change how you play the class at a base level. Pybro not at all, because Pyro is inherently a supportive class at their base, nor frag pyro since that leans back into its design. I’d place Ambush Pyro in the subclass category since at her base, he’s a medium speed, above average health class. The weapons ambush Pyros use typically weren’t intended for use that way, minus the Backburner, but it drastically changes the mindset from a frontline support to an enemy lines decimator. Quite similar to the Ninjaneer, a subclass of the subclass of Battle Engineer. Each of these have weapons that help be the class, or make the class as a whole, but most would not need to use them to become that class. Difference of a Subclass and True Subclass at that point. But if you go against the intended class role, I feel that’s a subclass personally.

videos getting sharper and sharper fish keep up the good shit also demoknight is *just* the 10th tf2 class I do not take criticism

I'd like to appreciate just how many jokes Fish packed into the opening 5 seconds of script.

Being a taxonomy junkie myself, this video was highly enjoyable! DONT ASK ME WHAT A TREE IS PLEASE DEAR GOD

Banana milkshake

Pingas scout is the only sub class

Keep up the great content man i reqlly inky come for new vegas but i still have that older part of my soul that loves tf2

This is one of your best videos yet!

“If everything’s a fish, then nothing is.”

I feel like a subclass is a set of items which physically prevents you from playing the traditional way a class is played. So demoknight is a subclass because you physically can't lob pipes and stickies like a normal demoman Trolldier is a subclass because you can't use rockets or your shotgun. Demo with the base-jumper and sticky jumper is a form of demoknight called demoflight because you're still navigating the map a high speeds to get melee kills. This means that demoknight and trolldier are the only subclasses. If valve were to add a support weapon to heavy's primary then fat scout would become a subclass.

I enjoyed the little sprinkling of absurdism in this video

Demoknight tf2

This is easily the best video you have ever made SO damn funny and true!

FSOAS videos never fail to make me smoke crack

Taxonomy showing up in this video is literally the greatest thing and makes me remarkably happy.

I got this wild idea in a dream. Instead of subclasses...different loadouts. Every loadout can change playstyle.

Fsoas, I hope ya know that while you may not be the most popular, you always make at least a few people really happy when ya upload. Cheers mate.

He finally did it. Fish managed to make a main line video where he gets to complain about scientists and talk about animals. We're just missing the government conspiracies.

If it has a widely accepted, catchy nickname, its a subclass, final answer

I think that is any loadout with a mindset that changes totally the way you usually can play, like the paratrooper that makes you an air danger, the milkman that makes you a support and not an offensive like scout is supposed, the pyroshark, because it changes totally what a pyro is made to normally do, the huntsman makes sniper a front line character and not an behind all the wall of tankies because the hunstman does less damage and doesn't have an eyehole that makes you see further the targets, the demoknight and trolldier i think that don't need to explain why are they subclasses, so for me those are the 6 subclasses

My mindset is that a playstyle just requires "you play differently", but doesn't change your matchups (Pybro is STILL good against Spies), while a Subclass requires such a fundamental change that changes your matchup advantages and disadvantages completely (like how pure Demoknight is agony against Engineer nests, but eats Snipers for breakfast). This wouldn't make Pybro or Battle Engie a subclass, but WOULD make Huntsman Sniper and Trolldier one.

As a biologist your use of taxonomy and cladistics is a terrible metaphor for what are subclasses but i love it anyway

Wait, so what is a tree?

Speaking as someone who is studying biology stuff, I appreciate the taxonomy stuff and comparison. Also chuckle on the plant taxaonmy blood bath joke

I always though of it like this Large change in gameplay? Viable enough to topscore easily if you put in the time to learn? Changes strengths and weakness of class role heavily? If all three are yes then its a subclass and not a gimmick.

Fish, wearing a Syndrome cosplay: "And when everyone is a subclass, no one will be."

Lazypurple being a egg of a pybro is wild