Going to defend the honour of L5R here a bit, best tactical battles of any CCG, army building, assignment, back and forth all or nothing battles. Ahead of its time gameplay there.
Yeah I don't understand their criticisms. He complains Rat & Mantis had no cards, but Rat was like a promo faction that didn't even have a starter and Mantis was only introduced mid-Gold edition so of course they had little to chose from. All the major clans had multiple people playing them in our city and for each there was multiple ways to play them. So those complaints are very odd. It's like complaining an enlightenment victory wasn't easy to do. L5R doesn't get enough love.
At first I was taken aback by Star Wars not being an S, but then I realized that my friends and I had made rule modifications to get around the issues addressed here. We banned anything not from the original trilogy. Not only did it create gameplay issues to include it, but it made no sense to have episode 1 characters mingling with Luke, Vader, etc. We also, over time, played almost exclusively larger decks than the 60 card standard, some as high as 2000 card decks that would take hours to build and most of a day to play. This helped transform the game to more of a tabletop strategy game, moving the emphasis to strategy and mitigating a lot of the impact of luck. It smoothed out some of the more broken cards by giving you an opportunity to retool and take a new approach. The tradeoff being that it took like a day to play a game, sometimes a weeken, and required an entire ping pong table to be able to spread out all of the locations. The 60 card format worked better 8f you agreed with your opponent to limit the game to just a couple of systems to help facilitate direct combat. Otherwise, the game almost always devolves into just spreading out and trading force drains.
I'm happy to see MECCG get it's due. I was on board with this release back at the beginning (there are not many of us left!) when ICE released The Wizards, and have been playing this flawed but brilliant game off and on ever since. It doesn't hit my table often anymore, but it doesn't have to. I can scratch that itch once every 6 months or 9 months, and it is something to look forward to. No LOTR game I've ever played comes close to capturing the spirit of Middle Earth like this game does. This game is a brutal race and the tension can be unbelievable, your deck could be rolling and you're thinking that you're a true Tolkien badass, but then 'fate' comes crashing through unexpectedly in an instant, and destroys everything you've built. Very humbling. I love the combat mechanics. Where else do you get to see what could have happened if Glorfindel armed with the mythic spear Aiglos faced Kamul the Easterling in a hi-states deadly brawl? My Glorfindel killed Kamul - and Kamul could did not come back again and again like in a video game or some of the other Rings games. You feel the achievements. Sorry about the rambling, but such an iconic game experience. And the beginning for many game designers that moved on to other games like Decipher.
Looking back I feel that if there would of been at least a couple year gap between Wizards and Deciphers SW games the reception would of been a lot better. I was admittedly one of the many that didn’t give the Wizards SW Tcg a chance while it was alive, cuz like many I was bitter about the end of the decipher reign. Many yeas later I tried the game and did enjoy it for what it was.
Yeah. I think Star Wars tcg could have been bumped up. Timing of it was kind of unfortunate with starting at the prequels. Attack of the clones just doesn’t hit like the original trilogy does.
100% agree. People were still feeling swccg's death when the new swtcg dropped and I also completely ignored it. Same with the 2nd editions of say stccg: I was a poor kid who wasn't interested in buying into a game I had already bought into.
I feel like the star trek ccg takes some curation. I'm the member of my friend group who ended up with everyone else's collections and digging them out now it seems like we can curate deck matchups. Like first contact fed vs borg, or blaze of glory Klingon vs cardassian.
The L5R story arc forced rotations being a major point when Magic also uses forced rotations seems like a really weird focus to center your criticisms of the game. The story arc rotations frankly is more reasonable since there is a (relatively) coherent story-line driven reason for the rotations vs. the sometimes jarring Magic standard rotations. Your criticism regarding things like Mantis or Ratling also seems to ignore the fact that the designers of the game actively sought to balance the factions. Ratlings had at least one dominant Kotei season, and Mantis had their moments, too. There wasn't too much focus on the other factions since the designers always wanted to focus of the game to be on the Major Clans. I think L5R should be B tier. The player engagement was fantastic. Players felt connected to the game because their choices changed the course of the game. This sometimes resulted in problems for the story team, but they did a good job navigating player choices. The fictions that drove the lore of the game were also very entertaining. The gameplay itself was more nuanced than Magic, and there is an argument to be made about inconsistent power levels depending on what arc you played in, but the gameplay itself was very solid.
Star Wars TCG should go to A spot. WOTC & R. Garfield made a masterpiece. As Andy said, the only critic is that the former SWCCG players were too picky. Design wise this game is the best, pairing with LOTR TCG. That why SWTCG foils are so expensive and getting harder and harder to get.
Doubt I would convince you, but SWTCG has gotten a lot better since the IDC took over (essentially that games version of the Players Committee). I personally really enjoy it, my favourite Star Wars CCG after SWU actually.
I’m actually down to learn more. I didn’t really know there was much of a continuing scene. If you know someone who is an expert on the game or if you feel like you’re that person, would love to do some content on the game!
also want to jump in on defending L5R: if the version you're comparing to Middle Earth or SWCCG is Imperial through Clan Wars, then sure, I think all the critiques are valid, BUT! from Gold / Diamond onward (and especially from Celestial onward) the game really evolved into a more modern, more straightforward, and more beautiful game of strategic politics and warfare - it really is a tier above! it's easily above LOTR TCG, and IMO the later versions of L5R >>> SWCCG (even though I do *love* SWCCG)
I wish Andy was wrong about DBZ. It had a ton of problems. One of the biggest for me was that it punished losers. Imagine your opponent was at 10 and you were at 8. 10 minus 8, you were dealt 2 damage and brought to 6 power. Then it's your turn, and 6 is less than 10 so you deal no damage. Then your opponent goes and 10 minus 6 is 4 damage, so you're down to 2 power. Now that's really simplified, but it's the gist. It's thematic in that getting hurt makes you weaker, but not great for gameplay.
In terms of the high-level story stuff, I still don't think anyone has ever done it better than L5R. Everyone who played L5R had a clan they loved. You could come to a tournament with a theme deck or a costume and win points for your clan in huge mega events. You could win a storyline tournament and getting to pick a personality from the clan you support who gets to be the hero of a fiction the story team writes (complete with an upgraded version of that personality appearing in a later set with some new keyword or ability reflecting your win.) Lots to love. In terms of gameplay? It was a mess. Military games sometimes ended up in ugly, grindy stalemates where neither player really wanted to attack.... For maybe the first 18 years of the game's 20 year history, honor versus dishonor matches were hour long slogs where nobody made any progress, ending with with two unhappy players arguing with each other in front of a judge over who was closer to winning.... The power level fluctuated up and down wildly for the last half of the game's history, and weak arcs were tainted by broken cards from the last arc (Chag 4?).... It was an easy game to love in spite of all that, but it had its warts.
So, I guess I need to get back into playing VS, right? The game is rock solid - two things that turned me off that might not bother me as much now: 1. All of my favorite super hero teams were underpowered - I just wanted to play Arkham Knights and Spider-friends, not Green Lantern Corps or more obscure teams. Agree on Netrunner, though I'm much more familiar with Android: Netrunner than the OG WotC game. The mechanics are innovative and perfectly fits the theme. I need to play more of it, though I'm trying to decide whether to just fill out my FFG collection and build a battle box or get into their players committee made cards and maybe do competitive play. Subjectively all three of the big Decipher games are A or S tier, but I think objectively your ranking is correct. SWCCG is solid A even with its flaws. It's such a great combination of tense competitive play and theme. Fortunately it is very easy to slice off the post-DS2 (or in my preference post-Ref2, I think the good of JPSD and Ref2 outweighs the bad). STCCG is a B (B+ is we could split hairs). It has more subtle interaction than perhaps Andy gives it credit for, but it's much more like a Euro board game than a competitive CCG and depending on the pairing of decks, it can devolve into two player solitaire. You can build decks with all of your favorite mains, though. Anyway, I think its best enjoyed at a friend's house as an all-day immersive tabletop game and not as a tournament game. LOTR - B is probably right. The mechanics are innovative and really solid. It's got the best artwork and visual design of Decipher's CCGs, and maybe the best art ever. I actually think you can get more into LOTR as a competitive game with more reps, kind of like Magic. Thematically it can feel limited and is hamstrung by the site path and rigid adherence to the films, at least until Decipher got to use more of the Tolkien property around Reflections. It's another game that I need to get back into.
you guys didnt even touch on the narrative aspect of L5R back in the day, where players got to effect the story and design cards thru tournament results. This was no C tier game. but to each their own.
nice to see SW and middle earth here. I do think you forgot or misinterpreted movement on middle earth. No one moves through starter movement, just through regions and there are plenty of available maps (or you can print one) to just see what landscapes/region names you are moving through. That part is very simple, and if you are playing how you explained; moving from a site to a haven every other turn then you are playing poorly. I do agree that the game is not user friendly. It would have to be extremely streamlined with rules to survive today's market. I do feel that to this date it remains as the most immersive game of that realm. There is some unbalance with factions, but part of it was the game losing the license. Typically an expansion would come out to "balance" one faction or the other. The Balrog became the most easy to play and powerful avatar. It just happened that the game lost its franchise just before an expansion to balance it was released. Great video!
Thanks for the feedback! I’ve only played a few times. I really like the game from my limited exposure, it is sometimes hard to play things without the modern lens and expectations that come with what people expect from a ccg experience.
I think you both seem to have missed something with L5R. I personally never liked VS System. While Andy described it as taking Magic and fixing everything wrong with it, to me it feels like taking Magic and adding extra steps.
Oof... L5R and Lotr TCG should both be higher IMO, at least A tier along with ME:CCG. Trek is overrated, and personally I think so are both Netrunner and VS. All your D's are correct though, haha. But obviously this is all very subjective.
We are definitely in agreement on trek being overrated… it did a lot to establish what a card game could be but holy moly is it not always an optimal play experience. If you ever want to do one of these lists with different games, happy to do it with you :)
I actually still have decks built for all of these games except mythos and DBZ. I would replace those on the list with Doomtown (playing poker to resolve combat is just so fucking cool) and WWE raw deal. Also honorable mention to Babylon 5 (one of the best multiplayer games ever made - but kinda sucked as a 2-player game).
Netrunner - very good game but over-rated. Not S tier. VS - Very good as well, maybe S Tier. Left out Spellfire which had 5 editions, and 12 expansions and was popular years after WotC shut it down (out of jealousy, SMH) on at least 3 different continents. So the list is a pretty massive fail, sadly.
We went back and forth quite a bit on what to include. Sorcery probably should have been included over Mythos or something. Or just made more than 12. Guess it leaves room for part 2.
if you go by resell values of these ccgs you are going to find your list is very very different. Also, Dbz still has fan sets still being produced to this day. honestly, this list is pretty biased (probably to your own personal tastes and that is ok). I would rank all of these very different.
Not sure how different resale value is on here. Everything B tier and up is rather expensive - Star Wars ccgs, trek, vs, middle earth and lotr tcg are all very pricey games. All have virtual sets and some kind fan run committee. Dbz has some expensive sets but I dont think they have world championships annually or online clients like gemp to support them. Swccg is kind of in a whole another realm with all of that. Full non profit set up to support the game and regional tournaments happening consistently still. To each their own on how they rank them, totally subjective. Curious to see your ranking. How would you rank them?
I think you said it quite clearly in one sentence, literally all games are a derivative of MtG. The one or two exceptions are the ones that stand out because of it.
It’s true. There’s some window dressing added but this is the underlying truth for 95% of card games. They can add some new elements or different tactics but fundamentally it’s still your power against my defense which you’re trying to use to take away my life force
SWCCG has a lot wrong with it, there's a tonnnn of wonky mechanics from the PREM-DS2 era that make the game much worse than it could be. Ban list would have been a huge boon, as well as tighter design from the beginning.
Harry Potter missed the list. It was a starter level Wizards game after all, so lacks a little complexity, but I figure it is worth a mention. Solid IP, good lineage and loyal fan base.
Yeah, there was quite a bit of debate on what to include on the list. WWE Raw deal was another one that probably should have been included. I’ve got some plans to talk about Harry Potter a bit more down the road.
Star Wars TCG loses so many points for me with its dated design. I absolutely hated how generic the card templates looked, exacerbated by how beautiful the design was of SWCCG.
