This was a massive english victory by a 2nd eleven who were outnumbered and outgunned by the scottish forces . King Henry V111 was in france @ the time with 30,000 soldiers so the militia from cheshire / lancashire / yorkshire etc had to do the job against the pike trained , King led scots. Aim to be there in 2013 to celebrate the 500 year aniversary and lets hope we can make it comparable to the yearly bannockburn celebrations so successfully followed in scotland
@heartofthereiver You are obviously well read and your knowledge in detail appears to be better than mine but its inconceivable that the best troops ( not commanders ) were not with the king in france . This battle was a great english victory and like bannockburn ( for the scots ) should be celebrated as such . It really gauls me the way that everyone else can harp on about there victories but not us . The greatest english victory for me was Dupplin Muir ? what do U reckon reiver
He is not suggesting a lack of patriotism, he is merely highlighting the fact that there are no Scots here blowing their mouths of with anti-English sentiment. This was an invasion of England remember and underlines a little known fact about Anglo-Scots history in so far as it was never a one way street.
me great 14 grandfather fought pulled back got ran out thank youJOHNSON/BLACKHURST/WHITWORTH sect to the king was sheriff to king did is manage to limp back next he was going the gross great pond but got ran out of town because of great reformation thank you for posting we been here since 1723
@stevejpreston Warwick the Kingmaker is my 18-great uncle, due to his sister Alice Neville being my 17-great grandmother, come back done through the Fitzhughs, Fiennes (Dacres), Lennards, Wallers, Courtenays etc, Elizabeth Courtenay being 8xgreat grandmother etc etc to me ALL GOOD STUFF but boring to others ... :)
@heartofthereiver Yes I know about the huge death toll but as I said in my first post that " Just like Bannockburn is celebrated as a great scottish victory so should flodden be celebrated as a english victory " and not as a sad scottish loss . My grandfather surname is fletcher and we are from lancashire so 500 years ago he would of been making those longbow arrows - By the way he married a scotch lass from stirling and that makes nonsense of it all
My 14xgreat grandfather was killed in this battle : Sir William Cockburn (a supposed favourite of James IV). However my 15xgreat grandmother (Anne Plantagenet) was the great aunt to Henry VIII so ... AT LEAST with Flodden the battlefield has been preserved, unlike what's happened to Bannockburn!!!!!!
@heartofthereiver - King Henry v111 was in france with the biggest english army ever to be sent there ( up till that time ) - he was chasing glory which he hoped would be camparable to previous kings . The army was seasoned regulars , better trained and equiped than the troops @ Flodden . The commanders you mentioned are experienced and trustworthy but its inconceivable that the King would go to war in France with anything less than his best men !! .
threated the heart of England as such. It isn't widely celebrated in Scotland. Only in the Scottish Borders through various Common Ridings etc. It is remembered the same way as WWI is with Armistice Day etc. It is the great loss of life and the futility of it and how unnecessary it was that is remembered.
@heartofthereiver I thought because they sailed north to kingsholm and did not cross the border the treaty was not broken . Anyway 2500 men split 2000 bowmen and 500 dismounted heavy infantry led by scot officers . I would love to read a book about Henry Beaumont ( i think ) as he seems to be the main brains behind it . He served with edward 1st and was battle hardened over 30 years fighting @ dunbar, falkirk , bannockburn and others but Dupplin muir must be the pick
@heartofthereiver I agree with you that @ that particular time the french were probably in no real posistion to mount a invasion of southern england . On the whole ?, the alliance does seem to be a two way thing with both giving and receiving troops @ diff times . Only reading the other day about the 6,000 men that fought on behalf of the french @ the battle of vermuil . Are you from reiver stock ? a armstrong or a kerr perhaps ?
That is not strictly true at all... while the English Army in France had routed the French Kings forces they were still in France. Had James' army defeated the Earl of Surrey there would have been NOTHING to stop him immediately marching South toward London.
@innit27 Christ mate - What about stirling bridge ? a right english fuck up and even Bannockburn should of been a english win ! . Having said that about Bannockburn Edward 2 was a crap weak king and in "The Bruce " you did have a very capable leader .
@heartofthereiver In many ways the battle was lost by the scots , just as the battle of stirling bridge should never of been won by the scots as the english F...ck.d up then this battle goes the same way - the scots picked the site , had german mercenary pike tactics and equipment and had better bigger guns as well as greater numbers . Its like George Foreman 8 to 1 on to knock out Ali and what happens .
No but the Earl of Surrey handled his army expertly and there were a myriad of factors that led to the defeat not just James coming off the hill. The English artillery were more effective for one and the Bill hook proved to be a good counter to the newly introduced pike.
"Just like Bannockburn is celebrated as a great scottish victory so should flodden be celebrated as a english victory " and not as a sad scottish loss" I suppose victories are only really trully celebrated when there was something vitally important at stake. Despite the size of the armies there was nothing actually threatening the bulk of England itself. It was nothing more than a massive side show to their war with France. It was only a diversionary raid (though a huge one) and didn't
and her descnedents. Sophia was daughter to Princess Elizabeth Stuart of Scotland the sister of Charles I and daughter of James VI&I. They were all of the same family.. The present monarch is a direct descendent of James IV of Scotland who died at Flodden and the British monarchy came about because of the said king's marriage to an English Tudor princess. So how did you get rid of them?
an ancestor. Mistake of course James was uncle to William not cousin. William also was offered the throne mainly because of who he was married to. He was joint monarch with Queen Mary who was a daughter of the deposed James. They were followed by Anne Stuart who was another daughter of James. So neither William or Cromwell ended the Stuart line. Even when the Hanovarians took over they only took over because they too came from the same Scottish line. The throne was offered to Sophia of Hanover
In simple terms Surrey was a better commander , the Scots Pike was not suited to the Boggy ground James was very Brave , but bravery does not win Battles, tactics skill and a bit of Luck does , the Battle started well for the Scots , Home and Huntly destroying the Right flank and nearly capturing or Killing Surreys son , but from then on lack of good command and Discipline went out the window , it could so easily have been a Great Scots Victory But sadly James was no Robert the Bruce
@heartofthereiver King James was of noble birth anf to die in the way he did was very brave . Wallace and even Robert the bruce came from a different time and each were both involved with numerous battles and hardships . as for Flodden the first pike attack on the scots left wing should of continued and turned the english flank but they didnt , this allowed the bill in the boggy centre to dominate . I also think that The Bruce was a far more tactical commander than Wallace .
Here fell the flower of my nation with their King on September 9th. 1513. This is a sad and malancholy place,a needless conflict in the name of an alliance with France.
The largest and best Scottish army ever massed. Crushed by a smaller English army while the main English army was fighting abroad. Distinct lack of patriotism by the Jocks here compared to the usual "Braveheart" rabble.
@heartofthereiver We got Charlie Adam playing for us @ the moment and he is the best player in the premiership and the other night I spent 40 mins trying to find a channel with the scotland match on it , I can not stand the pampered poddles would play for england now . I do admire the scotish fighting spirit but in the battles between are countries it takes 2 to fight and the english fighting spirit is often overlooked .- enjoy the banter and keep me informed about flodden regards
"The Scottish kings royal lineage comes from the Saxon kings of Wessex." After their defeat at Hastings members of the defeated English Anglo-Saxon royal household fled to Scotland and the Scottish King Malcolm eventually married the English Princess Margaret. But the Scottish monarch's claimed their crown through descent from Malcolm himself not Margaret.
Yes the Scottish army was bigger, but it wasn't a huge advantage. Coming down from the hill was their downfall which sadly for the Scots was a common trait. ly for the Scots was
Indeed, there is no doubt James' army was instilled with great national fervour. They had a larger army, the main English Army was in France and victory would seem a likely outcome.
We can apply that kind of speculation to everything, it gets us no where. What if British troops had run at the Somme, not walked? What if the French were prepared for an attack through the Ardennes in 1940? Etc etc etc.
Yes that's all true, but i sometimes wonder what the outcome would have been if the Scots had held the advantageous ground. And there was also a window when the Scots could have attacked before the English were readied.
I read an interesting thing, the Scottish king's battle standard was the red dragon of wessex! Same as Harold fought under at Hastings. The Scottish kings royal lineage comes from the Saxon kings of Wessex.
King James the VI declared a war on English so he took his massive army of lot of divisions of 30,000-10,000 troops on the field called Flodden the English commander Thomas Howard Earl of Surrey had arrived with 6000men then the battle had begun. James order his men to load the cannon and fire at the English then Earl of Huntly advanced the English troops to close combat but King James VI order his men to attack the English for the first time Thomas Howard Earl of Surrey thinking the Scots had smelled a victory. Then James got killed in action at the battle after the battle was won Henry the Tudor and VIII had claimed that 10,000 Scots were killedd and 12,000 were slain but Earl of Surrey had lose 1,500 English were killed a Knight had proclamied that 10,000 were killed and 10,000 were fled off the field and 5,000 were perished and King James's wife heard the news of her death husband James the VI was dead.
