The non symmetrical limitation for chapters is what makes the difference. Iron Hands only have Feirros and he can't be included in a Dark Angels detachment, while divergent chapters have more variety of datasheets and can use them in their own detachments and also in the core ones.
This 100% Why play iron hands for one mediocre character When you play dangelz and get multiple epic heroes (including one who gives 1cp every turn which is basically mandatory), special upgraded units and a primarch.....
@@juan_5315 this is DEFINITELY a large part of the issue. Making more of the divergent chapters units a variant and thus that chapter can't take the vanilla datasheet has promise, but I would add one more thing to a rework of unit limitations and more Codex Compliant unique units: if you bring an army with NO Divergent Chapter units (or detachments?) you get an extra army rule or a buffed one. I dislike the idea of OoM going back to pre-codex power (primarily because I want that to be the fix for 1st Company Task Force) and instead make it something along the lines of lore. Let Vanilla SM armies have a chance to get more CP as a reward for following Rowboat's special book. These CP can ignore the cap like Imp Knights and LoV's rules can.
This is it. Limit datasheets and detachments to the "stand-alone" chapters. Give them their own and a limited set of the "vanilla-ones" or only their own.
@@danielbrecht6556 Maybe is an option, chapter related datasheets can go into detachments of the same book/index. So for example if you have Ultramarines you can play the Blood angels detachment but no with Calgar or Tigurius, in the same way if you have Blood Angels you can play Gladius but no with Dante or Sanguinary Guard. That would not balance the chapters itself but would make more easy to balance them, as you could buff, for example, 1st Company Detachment without getting Deathwing Knights out of control or needing them to go up on points and being too much expensive in other detachments.
@@ryanwhaley5041uriel ventris teleporting centurions about was a good combo too, but they need to do stuff like this for other codex compliant chapters too, character specific models with their own retinues like Calgar with his victrix and Grimaldus with his Servitors. Give every chapter something unique, they’d still be codex compliant, just the epic heroes having their own body guard models. GW already have the lore in place for it, imperial fists chapter master with his centurion body guards for example
yes you do, the creation process of new minis probably takes a long time, from design to creating the injection molds, so giving them broken rules is a quick fix that works as a stopgap until new minis would arrive. it's just a few of lines of text, that can be removed/altered after. iron father Feirros for example: give him captain and techmarine keywords, and add a rule were he is 30p cheaper for every vehicle in the army. it scales with army size AND incentivises the use of ironstrom detachment. he, and the enhancement that you put on him, would wind up being free in a army with a lot of vehicles and you can tune up the rule by adjusting the point discount going forward. something like that takes less time, and money, than making a new mini, and GW doesn't like spending money. if we want quick change we need to work in the confines of what GW is willing to compromise on.
@@catiasantos9470 I'm not saying that GW does not enforce it, but is it the solution you wish for? because if that's what you want there is no reason to complain: GW did this for decades and ofc now it's just the calm after the crazyness of the end of 9th ed. To me adding broken rules is retarded and just hides the problems under a carpet instead of solving them. And many games teach us that you can be both balanced/fair and profitable at same time.
I mean unironically if they added more unique characters for the non Ultramarine chapters it could help. I mean for Emperor's Sake the Iron Hands, Imperial Fist, Salamanders don't have their Chapter Masters and unlike White Scars they aren't vegetables.
The obvious answer is Codex exclusive models… like upgrade sprues to allow unique weapons on units if run as “White Scars” you get to swap chain swords for spears with Lance on your Assault Intercessors, or Lightning Claw Assault Intercessors if Raven Guard, Breacher Shields on Heavy Intercessors if Imperial Fists, a Meltagun for the Intercessors Sgt if Salamanders, an upgrade to turn Bladeguard into Victrix Guards with their buffs added on top of the Blade Guard rules if Ultramarines and for Iron Hands probably a Deepstrike upgrade for the Brutalis Dread.
@@catherinedalzell3183 and then half edition later after loud whining from entitled children playing deviants dumb GW writer gives deviants the same weapons making the issue even worse LOL, happened every single time codex chapters had something neat but donutsteel snowflakes didn't...
Part of the issue is a space marine doesn't feel anything like a space marine should. They're a semi-horde unit, the boltgun doesn't kill anything, their melee sucks and and they die incredibly easy.
Disagree, space have some of the cheapest point per wound models in the game, plus bolter rifles are fairly decent compared to other armies standard weapons
@@stephenfeeney2966 So much this. a unit of space marines vs a unit of fire warriors. Points wise, the marines are way, way cheaper in regard to wounds, armour, special abilities
@@TheJase8566 Meanwhile you get shit like White Scars on bike engines being faster than Eldar, but no one complains about that not feeling like a space marine should.,
I'd say give the codex compliant chapters a bunch of unique non-epic hero options. Among the older ones gone to legends, Ultramarines' Terminus Ultra land raider is a favorite of mine.
I’ve got an even better short term solution I saw on Reddit: give them a slight cost decrease on select thematic generic units. For instance salamanders can have discounted eradicators, assault centurions, infernus marines, and aggressors. Maybe throw in a battle line keyword occasionally like infernus could be battle line for salamanders. Similar system as agents of imperium where there’s a cost difference depending on what chapter you are for some units, it’s pretty small amount of work and is easy to rebalance (if 6 full mans of infernus marines are too strong for salamanders you just give them a points hike) but it effectively gives them the same thing as non codex chapters have: a chance to do the meta better than every other chapter
Here's an idea: we already have a mechanism for excluding units from divergent chapters: named characters. Bring more back from the compliant chapters. Give them pizzazz and spice.
It's pretty mindblowing that GW (and most players) didn't see the problem with making divergeant chapters "Space Marine +" by having them gain a lot of new and unique stuff while keeping EVERYTHING from the base marines. Being divergent should be a trade off, a side-grade. For every thing you gain you should lose something else. You gained a unit? You should lose a vanilla unit. You gained a detachment? You should lose a vanilla detachment. Etc etc.
Named Characters are literally all they have. The fact that GW isn't making more non-Ultramarine characters, that are actually good, is actual buffoonery.
Id make it more like the chaos ones where the divergent chapters would get access to units that make sense for the chapter but dont get everything in the standard SM codex
Deathwatch kinda had this before they killed it. You couldn't take scouts or devastators. Honestly? At this point I would say that if you play a divergent chapter, you should be locked to your book. I know that wouldn't be popular, but its the only way to separate the two anymore. If you use your chapters unique heroes or datasheets, you are locked out of anything but your book or Gladius
I think the problem is that the genie is kind of out of the bottle on that front, you can't suddenly declare "okay blood angels can't use hellblasters in 11th when hellblasters have been legal for blood angels armies since... uh, 8th? Whenever hellblasters were introduced. Blood angels players already own hellblasters already, thought bought them to use in their army, and now they can't. And hellblasters are primaris, people have been waiting for the axe to drop on firstborn stuff for years(even if losing the librarian dread was still a shock to a lot of us)
@@BrandonL337Adding to that, you can't restrict to only divergent Codex books because then everyone loses access to basic units like Intersessors unless you reprint them in the new Codexes.
@@BrandonL337 Honestly, I don't think GW is afraid of telling people they can't use their models anymore. I don't disagree that it would suck, but it's GWs problem they made and they're gonna have to fix it at some point. Those Sanguinary guard would still make awesome assault proxies, and those Hellblasters would still work as a proxy regular gun toting marine.
@@BrandonL337 Except they did this EXACT thing to World Eaters last edition. WE players were using bikers and raptors and chaos lords all the way until the codex, then suddenly lose them when the codex came out. I'm not saying it doesnt suck because it does, but if they are okay doing it once they can do it here for an army that has a more bloated range.
They already had something for this in previous versions. Just bring back Chapter Traits and don't allow the divergent codices to use that rule. You either get the traits or the expanded datasheets/formations/enchantments/etc. You could also have a highly customizable "Chapter Legend" datasheet to let people make their own hero of the chapter, and disallow that datasheet in any chapter that already have specific units. This would be great for bringing back all those forge world heroes they culled, and letting people have something unique if they actually want to play a chapter of their own instead of the famous ones.
@@deckofmanytoyboxes8845 I mean, i thought they never should have abandoned subfactions to begin with, so yes, i agree. Bring back subfactions, delete the stupid detachment rules.
If only they printed a separate codex for divergent chapters, they could put different point totals for balancing problematic unit combos without affecting the normal space marines.......
don't need a separate book for that. Especially now that Agents has demonstrated that GW can put different points for the same unit into the PDF. No reason not to list everything divergent chapters can take in their sections, with appropriate cost.
@@BurnByMoonlightit gives the option to make some units cheaper in a core codex army though. We saw this in Agents, some units stayed the same price for allies rules and got cheaper for pure agent armies.
No, but you could reduce points for standard chapters and increase some points for divergent chapters if theres a combo with certain leaders or detachments that make things stronger or weaker than they are meant to be. They would just be balanced separately by points that way. Then divergent chapters using leaders, detachments, and other combos doesnt negatively impact normal SM that doesnt have access to those combos. Would also work in reverse, on the offchance a Ultramarines or Salamander character makes a single unit super strong and would normally mean nerfs for everyone because of it. @BurnByMoonlight
@@BurnByMoonlightthe complaint is that the existence of divergent chapters make codex chapters worse because they have to be balanced around the divergence chapters use. Personally I don’t really buy it, I think it’s not really a problem in tenth. But the argument is that similar to in 9th where stuff like dark angels would directly buff generic datasheets, so those datasheets needed to be balanced assuming they had the extra abilities even when they didn’t get them in generic armies such as dark angels getting inner circle on terminators. The direct buffs to datasheets are gone now, but there’s still a similar argument that the greater options for synergies with leaders and detachment choice has a similar if weaker effect. Personally I think the effect is weak enough it doesn’t actually matter, the issue is gw has failed to balance space marine it doesn’t really have anything to do with divergent chapters being particularly problematic, but that’s the argument.
My hot take, if the primaris are gonna replace all the first born units. At least give them many war gear options like the older editions. I'm down for Captain and Librarian on bike with Thunder Hammers. Hell give the Outriders Plasma, Grav and more melee options.
I think for characters, definitely, but I suspect the reason the primaris units are mono-weapons are to A. make them easier/faster to use in game, rather than rolling for 3 bolters, a rocket launcher and a plasma gun, you roll for five bolters, or five plasma guns, or five rocket launchers. I think also the idea to to make special weapons feel more impactful, I've heard from many people that a tactical squad would often fire their bolters at troops, then one plasma shot at termies, but the plasma whiffs and just feels kinda pointless. a plasma squad on the other hand, feels much more powerful.
Also would like to see more flexibility in war gear for battle line units. The standard intercessor squad with a melta or heavy bolter in the mix would be awesome
My hot take is that primaris units, all push to fits and "you can only use boxes that doesnt require any kitbashing to wear some weapons" kills all the vibe and flavor from game that it ever had. Lets say, Necrons gets something that they havent had. A fast unit with good vehicle killing power. Bang, from primarisclonetrooper factory within seconds spawn a slightly better unit that breaks meta for next 3 months. And this happens and happens and happens. (I am under 40yo boomer who started in 3rd ed.)
The problem are the primaris...they are too strong ... But they cost too much...so basically they become not too strong for what they cost...primaris Is a failure in game for GW...the demonstration are the Divergent chapters
@@BrandonL337I see what you're saying but also building an army is a pain. I miss the tactical squad, I don't feel like I need a unit of melta rifles, but a melta rifle in every squad is great. They seem too specialized as to be hamstrung. I do see the argument about speeding it up though.
I really like the idea of option 4, gives people more reason to run the appropriate detachment for there units and would be a nice buff idea for lesser used detachments.
Provisional ideas I shamelessly stole from other codecies: Gladius - Masters of the Codex - if every adeptus astartes model in this army has the Ultramarines or Agents of the Imperium keyword, change the second sentence of Adept of the Codex to "At the start of your Command phase, if the bearer is on the battlefield, **in addition to** selecting a Combat Doctrine to be active for your army, you can select the Tactical Doctrine. " Anvil - Aegis Imperialis - if every adeptus astartes model in this army has the Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, or Agents of the Imperium keyword, then at the start of your Command Phase, select an Imperial Fist or Crimson Fist unit. Until your next Command Phase, if that unit makes a Normal Move in your movement phase, it may benefit from rules that required it to Remain Stationary Vanguard - Hunters in the Dark - if every adeptus astartes model in this army has the Raven Guard or Agents of the Imperium keyword, then whenever a Raven Guard model makes a shooting attack against a unit greater than 12" away, those attacks gain Anti-Character 5+ Stormlance - Death on a Swift Wind - if every adeptus astartes model in this army has the White Scars or Agents of the Imperium keyword, then whenever a Mounted model charges an enemy unit, increase the damage of melee weapons equipped by that model by 1 until the end of the turn. Outrider squads gain the Battleline keyword. Firestorm - The Dragon's Teeth - if every adeptus astartes model in this army has the Salamanders or Agents of the Imperium keyword, then whenever a Salamanders model makes an attack against an enemy unit within 6", increase the armour penetration of that attack by 1. Ironstorm - The Certainty of Steel - if every adeptus astartes model in this army has the Iron Hands or Agents of the Imperium keyword, then whenever an Iron Hands model is the target of an attack, if that attacks strength is higher than the model's toughness, subtract 1 from the wound roll. First Company Task Force - By His Will - if this army does not contain any Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolf, or Black Templar units, models in this army may reroll hit rolls of 1 and gain +1 to their Objective Control.
For every normal player, everything in power armour is Space Marines, regardless of the chapter or codex. And from this POV, they are one of the strongest faction in the game. No need for fixes.
They should make new units by releasing upgrade sprues for existing models, like hounds of morkai. - Heavy Intercessors gets a (thunder hammer/bolt rifle) and shield for fists, and call it Huskarls. - Outriders gets a new power weapon for White scars, so now scars can actually bring 6 unit of bikes, yey bike. - Give Salamanders a big effing flamers on their dreadnoughts. - Raven guards gets a new reiver that is not only playable, but actually good. - Iron Hands gets new cybernetic arm and plasma gun or power weapon for their heavy intercessors.
@@no-one-can-talk-anymore This is why they should just make free online codex already and stop being greedy for once (Impossible, I know). Then it's as easy as shoving a new unit with chapter specific keywords, preventing any other chapters from using that unit.
Or make 3 generic detachments and 3 codex only detachments. For the generic ones I would use gladius, the bikes and veterans. For codex only: - iron storm and bring it back to the old strat cost. - phobos and probably make it a bit better - gravis, make it a lot better. - fire storm is fine. They don't all have to be winners
I like the idea of boosting core detachments if you aren't using units from outside them; right now SM players are basically being forced to take epic heroes, making custom chapters utterly uncompetitive, and merely saying you _can_ use epic heroes but don't have to would be beneficial. However, if we do get a fix, I think the vastly most likely one is going to be separate entries in the MFM for divergent chapters; that would at least solve the problem of the Storm Raven spiking in points due to some players using it with a Dark-Angels-specific model.
give them old oath; improve the detachments, vastly improve the codex epic heros, make Guilliamn ~300pts or less, implement the multiple points that imperial agents, where things that are over powered in the non codex compliant armies are more expensive than their regular codes counterparts.
They should really make Loyalist Primarchs Cheaper across the board, but also less like a "Kill whatever gets infront of it" unit, and make them more specialized buff tanks. And make them really good at holding stuff up, and killing chaff units. Give them the plot armour they get in the lore, but reign in the killing power.
GW might consider a "Codex compliant" mechanic, where any Astartes army that does not contain any BA, DA, SW or BT datasheets has all of its units gain the "codex compliant" keyword. Then the unit datasheet abilities could have additional text giving some kind of buff or extra if they unit is "Codex Compliant". Here's a couple examples: Intercessors: "Objective Secured: If you control an objective marker at the end of your Command phase and this unit is within range of that objective marker, that objective marker remains under your control, even if you have no models within range of it, until your opponent controls it at the start or end of any turn. In addition, once per battle at the start of any battle round you may pick one unit with this ability which is Codex Compliant; until the end of the battle round each model in that unit gains +1 objective control." Infernus Squad: "Incendiary Terror: In your Shooting phase, after this unit has shot, you can select one enemy INFANTRY unit hit by one or more of those attacks made with a pyreblaster. That enemy unit must take a Battle-shock test. If this unit is Codex Compliant; that Battle-Shock test is made with a -1 penalty." Stormraven Gunship: "Armoured Resilience: Each time an attack is allocated to this model, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic of that attack. In addition, if this model is Codex Compliant, reduce that attack's armour penetration by 1." You could have various designs, where the unit gets the buff all the time or only one battle round out of five, or only one unit in the army with the same datasheet can use the extra Codex Compliant buff at a time, to represent the general combined-arms approach that the Codex encourages.
I'll say the same thing I did on your video about the Holy Bolter. Granted, they'll never become equivalent to their lore in all the books I've been reading recently, but they seriously need a general +1 (at minimum) on ALL their stats compared to "normal" Imperium humans - both in unit stats and weapon stats (ie. massive SM bolters should be significantly better than Astra Militarum bolters). Maybe these changes would impact divergent chapters too, but I just think it makes sense across the board for Marines. I think dropping Desolation Marines from 10 to 5 is disappointing too. Also need leaders for flying units like Inceptors and Suppressors.
@@arn1345 No shit sherlock. But compared to the lore, they're trash. At least these rapid fire, large caliber weapons being fired by supersoldiers could get a couple additional attacks each by default.
8:49 I’m down for this option, so long as GW makes these changes while understanding that the ultimate problem is less about reigning in divergent chapters and more about making core space marines good, as they currently aren’t good. For example: arbitrarily making Assault Intercessors more expensive for blood angels doesn’t solve the current issue of Ultramarine or Salamander Assault Intercessors only being good at killing Cadians.
I really want a rules buff if you match detachment with chapter. That feels like the most fun. And first company task force needs something more to enter good meme level of strength.
I like the idea of certain units getting a point reduction for certain detachments. Imagine bikes becoming cheap in stormlance, Or flamer units in firestorm. Let's you take more to lean into the lits or saves points for a more well rounded force.
But Iron Hand will be REALLY powerful if this work...just imagine bunch of cheap Brutalis+Redemptor+tanksss🤦🏻♂️ Also, some detechment don't have a themed unit (Imperial Fist for example) how to deal with it is another topic🤔
@@The_Penguin_8964 This is true, could put a cap on the discount, after you've saved x points there is no longer a discount. Also Imperial fists are all about bolters and standing still. Intercessors, heavy intercessors and fortifications/turrets.
There is a problem of counting wins. Gladius with Azreal is still "dark angels". I think destroying ironstorm detachment is upsetting, especially when they skipped the opportunity to make 1st company task force or fists viable. Lots of us proxy epic heroes to get the datasheet onto the table.
Let's start by removing the vanilla marine detachments from the divergent chapters. It is ridiculous that a Space Wolves or a Black Templar can play with the Gladius. And then some weapon profiles should be revised to make the vanilla chapters more competitive.
Easiest way to (imo) fix the issues between the two. Bring balance through stratagems. Give codex compliant a string of about 3-4 new strats that help show the adapability of the codex. Like a shoot twice, fight twice /first, if you bring a judicar/ancient respectively , double move with jump pack unit, sticky objective with a gravis unit, using a phobos unit to mark a target for +1 to wound. These things being LOCKED to only codex Astartes (ie give them the "compliant" keyword and then these stratagems can only target "
@@deckofmanytoyboxes8845 Agreed. Xenos and chaos should get their subfactions back. It doesn't even need to be done with new kits, just do it like it used to be done (and still is done with HH), have each subfaction get a unique unit that is just a unique loadout variant of an existing unit. This could be done with upgrade kits (and I'm talkign REAL unique loadout, not the very cringy 1 token weapon the SM got for their upgrade sprue)
@@deckofmanytoyboxes8845 I 100% approve this Every factions needs its smaller subdivisions, the dynasties, the craftworlds, the septs, the klans, and cool units released to match all of these. Space marines are, however, a major chunk of the lore. It is, after all, entered around the imperium of Man. I dont think the 9 founding chapters getting their own cool shit is too much, and having successor chapters being able to lean into is best. Why templars get stuff and raven guard or salamanders don't is beyond ridiculous.
@@william9557 this, sepcifically the last thing you said About Templars. Absolutley ridiculous that another factions SUBFACTION gets more love than entire SPECIES in this game
i don't think GW would choose that, its a big financial decision that doesnt seem particularly profitable. It's simply too many minis to stock, many of which wont sell and we might end upseeing entire chapters being rotated
Sounds exactly like the problem with Chaos Daemons, if your units get buffed then someone else who is already doing decently can just ally them in and get even more powerful (see flamers in 9th) if your units are too weak then even you don't want to take them. Special rules help a bit, but I think the different points for the same unit depending on what faction you are playing is a better solution. I would love to see lesser daemons actually matter without breaking CSM or cult marines.
The most obvious for me: add just one unit for every chapter, which already exist in the codex but with chapter keywords For example, "Khan's outriders" with +1 damage and lance on a charge for the good points with the keyword "White Scars"
Why can't they port over units from 30k to 40k? We have so much that could just be used, and they refuse. Gimme fire drakes Gimme ebon keshig It ain't hard GW And for the love of God. Templars are not a founding chapter. They should NOT get cool toys when the others dont
Y, they could make them battleline and cheaper for white scars. same for jump pack units for ravenguard, etc. doing that only on the thematic units only wouldn't bog down the munitorium. if you make it just a standard that they cost half of the points or something like that, it doesn't even need to be in the munitorium.
Option 3, or something like it, seems like the best solution. Maybe allow a 2nd Oath of Moment Target, or 1 extra free Armor of Contempt per turn. That way Codex Marines get a little extra for having fewer options.
How impactful would it be if an all-Codex army's Oath of Moment could just select two units? Then Guilliman's Master of Battle (backup Oath target) would just trigger when the first of the targets is destroyed, and no other real changes need to be made. As well, you don't lock out "reroll 1s to Wound" abilities for other SM units in future. In addition to that, a bit of option 1 (Epic Hero buffs) and a bit of option 2 (IA-style "non-Codex costs" for the four Divergent chapters) I think is all you really need to do. EDIT: Also, change 1st Company's rule to "always re-roll 1s to Wound vs OoM target AND +1 OC for Terminators and Veteran Squads", then change the Sternguard. (Full reroll Wounds? Maybe "shoots twice" like Custodian Guard?)
I think the only one that makes sense is option 2. Okay GW, you want to keep your super special snowflake chapters? Fuck it, make them full blown factions. They get their own codexes, with their own costs for their space marine units. You could even be fun with it and give their units special wargear or abilities that the compliant chapters wouldn’t get, because we all know you like the divergent chapters so much. Black Templar Scout Squad? They get meltas, because why not. Dark Angels Hellblasters? They get better plasma guns. Whatever you want, *but their points are balanced accordingly and SEPARATE from the generic space marines*
I think f.e. for Ultramarines giving bolt rifles and chain swords more ap or damage and reducing the points for intercessor units or increasing its base OC and oath reroll to wound and give them better LD is a lore acurate way to boost them or synergizing it with Gladius somehow to be more effective. They could do these with all chapters in a way.
Give them stronger detachment rules, bring back the legends units for more variety. What they will end up doing regardless is just a big points cut to turn marines into yet another 10th edition hordish army to promote sales.
To circumvent the need to make unique new models for the baseline chapters they could just give certain units for them better stat lines. Bikes get a unique profile in white scars, infernus marines get one in salamanders, heavy intercessors in Imp. Fists, etc. You could do it for 1-3 units for each chapter and I think it'd go a long way.
No old oath enabled some truly disgusting combos. And space Marine players complaining about not doing enough damage are usually just spamming bolt gun squads. Space Marines still have tons of options for damage dealers.
it also makes some weapons and tanks way to efficient into every target. it blurrs the line of anti tank and anti infantry weapons. it was a horrible design from the start. ofc vanilla marines SHOULD get buffs, but i dont think old oath is the answer. it was horribly unfun to play against.
@@stefanw6665meltas are horrible without re-rolls, as shown by the fact that erradicators need to have full re-rolls in-built into the datasheet to be good. You can combo lethal hits with oath already for similar results anyway. Old oath for compliants is the easiest fix…
Bring Chapter Traits back, and maybe tie it in with their flavor detachment. Ultramarines could get an extra use out of each doctrine in Gladius, Iron Hands could get an extra reroll in Ironstorm, Imperial Fists maybe get an additional AP-1 when remaining stationary in Anvil, Salamanders could get a range boost on the +1 strength buff in Firestorm, White Scars automatically advance 6" in Stormlance, and Raven Guard could get a range extension on the stealthish ability in Vanguard. On another note, more characters for the Codex Compliant Chapters!
Why was there not a detachment called: Joint Task Force (name in progress) Where you could take any epic hero from any chapter without restrction, and their divergent units, and make it all about deploying multiple chapters into battle to support each other?? Things like when you hit x unit with y chapter unit, z unit from different chapter gets a bonus.
I like option 4 and radical choices 1 and 3. I think each Chapter could/should have one unique unit they can take- Fists getting a breacher-style unit with shields and bolters, Salamanders getting a unit that can mix and match flamer and melta, etc. The most radical one would be to have all Astartes play the same, with just unit selection to differentiate the chapters and playstyles.
Something I wanted to see was if GW is committing to all the chapters getting upgrade sprues then if they were to make compliant chapter upgrade sprues maybe they can do something like the Deathwing Terminators and Death Company where the upgrade sprue gives them a unique unit. White Scars could have an upgraded and stronger Outrider, and Salamanders an upgraded Aggressor or Infernus; and other than rules differences they just have special shoulders like the divergent unique units.
I really like the idea of giving other chapters a unique army ability in addition to their detachment ability. Most of the chapter abilities from 9th would be a good starting point.
orks mostly only have t-shirts and only 1 wound, where space marines have always had armour that saves them from two thirds of all small arms fire (unless they're fighting _other loyalist space marines,_ whose bolters got buffed to -1AP, unlike pretty much every other faction's signature infantry weapon… including chaos space marines who literally have bolters, too!), _and_ they now have two wounds apiece. if orks went back down to T4, they'd just be _marginally_ harder to kill than eldar or guard-who are meant to be made of tissue paper-and _easier to kill than tau._ just let orks be tough to wound and quit your bellyaching.
Im opposed to Option 1, making certain characters not just auto-include but borderline mandatory has never really been healthy for the game mechanically or narratively and creates more issues than it solves, and likely isn't enough of an boost to solve the real issue by itself regardless. Separate points and/or Giving the Relics and stratagems a boost for their intended detachment is an interesting idea that has real merit. Allowing RIDE HARD, RIDE FAST to target 2 units if they're white scars or Adept of the Codex giving the entire army an extra tactical doctrine for Ultramarines. I think really though, the issue is the divergent chapters getting the codex detachments AND their own. At the very least, they should have the choices narrowed down. DA for instance might only get Anvil, Fire-storm, and Vanguard as you could argue Deathwing already fills in the roll for 1st company and ravenwing is their stormlance. Chapters with hugely divergent rosters and lore, like the space wolves and the black templars, who have shit tons of unique units/characters anyways, probably shouldn't get access to the Codex detachments at all. Its hard against the lore and impossible to balance on the table. Honestly, they should have limited ranges, DA should not be so quick to trust the new primaris marines into their ranks. Wolves already have a structure that works for them, they don't need inceptor squads, thats what grey hunters are for. Intercessors is not how you advance in a crusade, now get your ass in the back ranks behind the sword brothers Novitiate. So yeah, Limited detachments and smaller ranges is the answer. Im sure that will go over great with all the new players that prominently feature the new models in their divergent chapter ranges. (As guy with a DW army, Im not actually that salty. I never bought primaris for them, because I played deathwatch for the kill teams and the dreads.. and because its hard to settle on just one chapter that I like.)
There need to be rules added that specifically buff armies that play codex detachments and use specifically codex units. Faction specific leader units are fine, but forcing divergent to build lists similar to codex factions means that divergent chapters can access the same rules but are forced to play the same as codex etc.
My thought would be that space marines are like terminators now. You take them in units of 3-5, specialists can be 1-2. You end up with a force of like 20 figures if that, but it represents an accurate snapshot of what battles boiled down to a tabletop would be like. These “lore accurate” marines are hard to kill and need constant firepower or heavy weapons to bring down, but on the flip side they can chew through hordes with the mass reactive bolt shells. Terminators are almost like having a primarch on the field in survivablity and damage, but are slow, and vulnerable to swarms. A real primarch would be only damaged by critical hits on weapons with -x value.
What about for certain detachments their is Battleline flexibility. Battleline is kinda important now in Pariah Nexus. For example if Adrax Agatone or Vulcan He’stan are your Warlord in a Firestorm detachment then Infernus Squad can be taken as battleine units? If Kayvaan Strike is your warlord in a Vanguard Detachment then Incursor and Infiltrator Squads can be taken as battleline? If Kor’Sarro Khan is your warlord in a Stormlance Detachment then Outriders can be taken as Battleline? Et cetera I also collect Necrons too, and I kinda wish Flayed Ones were Battleline in Annihilation and Deathmarks were Battleline in Hypercrypt. Just some ideas 😊
As others have mentioned, I think bringing back chapter traits, some for the regular chapters and then some generic ones you can pick for chapters without obvious progenitors. That and buffing the Epic heroes. It would go a long way to add power and flavor back.
The most straightforward way to do it to my mind is in the field manual, expand each divergent chapters listing to include all the core SM units and point appropriately for that army and likely interactions. Going forward I'd actually like to see the core Chapters have a core set of rules baked into them, a Geneseed rule that would also apply to successors. I'd keep the detachment system already in place. And for chapters with out named heroes (or very few) offer a section to build your own named characters (much like they did with build your own marine chapters in previous books). Three if you have none down to none if you have three. That way you could at least attempt to encourage there own chapters and give the already known chapters ways to shine too. That would also apply to divergent chapters and their successor chapters. Then you've got a way to balance Marines across their spectrum, a more interesting tactical choice of what heritage your army takes and a chance to create something interesting if you run your own off shoot army.
Another way to buff the codex chapters would be to have more individual character models and have a small retinue with that character model. For instance, a buff to imperial fists would be to have their chapter master have a model, but give that model a retinue do say a couple of centurions in his retinue, enabling imperial fists to say send a squad of 9 centurions. They’ve done this with Grimaldus and his retinue of 3 Servitors and with marneus Calgar and his victrix honour guard. Because they’re chapter locked, chapters like black Templars, dark angels and space wolves won’t be able to take them, and it would bring the codex chapters up a little.
It's almost like removing all the fun and flavour rules/units of various subfactions or the 'create a chapter' rules was a really bad idea that anyone with a brain warned about the moment 10th started coming along or something. Or that free wargear would make balance harder. Or that some subfactions should HAVE downsides. It used to be that Blood Angels and stuff HAD weaknesses like the Red Thirst, or the need to hunt Fallen in a battle for Dark Angels. That's what kept them in balance. But modern GW can't comprehend design that isn't just "on a 6, gain thing!"
How to fix the Space Marine Problem: 1. Build a time machine. 2. Time Travel to when GW was first founded. 3. Replace all of the executives with people that actually know what they're doing.
Easiest solution is to state that if a divergent chapter wants to play a codex compliant detachment then they have to used codex compliant units only. So my spacewolves Nat use thunderwolves in stormlance for example and no death company is a gladius etc etc. This would limit the divergent chapters to their own detachments to use the full range of models and thus week the detachments for those chapters if they are to powerful or to weak. It would then enable the same to happen with codex compliant as only compliant units use the detachments taking the focus off the specific units but to the detachment structure, enhancements, strats etc
Different point values for divergent chapter should be the way to go, a bit like Black templar vehicule cost more due to the multi-melta. As a blood angels player, i will agree to pay a bit more point on jump pack unit as example, since we get stratagem that boost them a lot. Maybe point differences by detachment... will be one heck of administration but could help balance each one.
Maybe Divergent Chapters shouldn't have access to all the detachments of the Main Space Marine Codex. For example, Blood Angels shouldn't have access to Ironstorm, 1st Company and Anvil because it doesn't suit their chapter or any sub-chapter under Blood Angels.
I have a take I've wanted implemented all edition, please give detachments limited unit rosters. If you run a Storm lance detachment you cant take wolves or gravis, if you take a Anvil you cant take x, y, z... etc etc. It means detachments can be made fluffy and meaningful without some random unit spoiling it for everything else, even more so when its not "meant" to be played in that detachment. If needed you can include some minor points lists for a few core units, or give some battleline in said detachment, or even set a rule of 1 for some units. GW needs to get over the idea that more choice is just better, cause its not, limitations are important.
GW did this to themselves when they went away from Fluffy rules for subfaction. The guard and marines lost out when regiments and chapters went away. I think it will go a long way to fixing the problem when they bring subfactions back
As a blood angel player, I think the best thing to do, would be to stop divergent chapters getting access to the core detachments, then those detachments can be buffed. I'd also consider the option of increasing points for certain units if used in divergent chapters maybe, though I dont know thats actually all that necessary
@@blindhamsterman1 as a dark angels player, I would agree if our detachments were competitively viable. Or if we can keep Gladius. Locking us out of Gladius would drop us lower than we were pre-codex, unless they also cut our costs like dropping Knights to 200 or even lower to start.
Hmmm, I think I could support codex chapters using themed detachments. They could even add it as a special rule to the core chapter master. That way they could customize the bonus should they want to add new characters to core codex.
The easiest solution would be for an addition "layer" of perks for going ultramarines, salamanders, and the like, by improving the adjacent detachment IF you include a unit with that keyword. Ie: if your army includes the keyword "ultramarines" then gain +1 xyz
Another option is more restrictions for the divergent chapters. They've only half-assed the current restrictions and I think they could go further with them cuz there really are much more restrictions the lore. Not only do Black Templars not use psykers but they also have a different version of captains and lieutenants (marshals and castellans) same with space wolves who make a point of not using the codex hierarchy or even dark angels that (for some reason) choose not to field sternguard vets in the lore. Make up some more if you want but they shouldn't JUST have more/better version of the units. And this would just add to their uniqueness and flavor by actually having you field an army they would field.
I would just add a further rule to Codex Marines that only applies if not using Blood/dark/space/Templar etc. For me i would take the gladius special rule and make that accessible to all codex armies and then give gladius something new as a detachment ability. The gladius bonus is very flexible and would havea lot of strong interactions with other detachments.
I kind of like the idea of dropping the points for thematic generic units in each chapter, but I would rather not nerf people running custom chapters (or forcing them to compromise and "count as" an official chapter for rules bonuses). Bonuses to detachments for "no other chapter keyword" lists would avoid that issue, and more directly encourage fluffy thematic lists. I doubt we'll get that in 10th though.
GW’s policy to separate paint/lore from rules has led to this. So I think we just need to bite the bullet - disallow divergent chapters from using codex detachments. They’re divergent chapters for a reason - because they don’t follow the Codex Astartes quite as closely. I play Wolves and Templars, and would never consider using a codex detachment because they just don’t feel like accurate play styles for those chapters. 1) Make sure all divergent chapters are in a reasonable competitive position to use their unique detachments 2) Remove access to the core codex detachments 3) Add unique chapter rules for using the codex detachments as Auspex suggested 4) Adjust any remaining issues with points changes Or just, you know, reintroduce proper sub-factions like in 9th.
They could do chapter specific detachments like what they did with the Emperor's Children to buff the first born/non divergent chapters. Would buff generic space marines along with not touching the divergent chapters
Space Marines ideally should just have a codex v. divergent costs for some units. It's a better option for more specific balance. But GW is just not good at admin, so the best I can think is giving special benefits to Codex marines. Just restoring old Oath might help. If they're going the Oath route, I'd prefer they just give specific bonuses to vanilla marines based on detachment. E.g. - vanilla only Gladius can declare two oath targets per turn; vanilla-only firestorm gets +1 to rolls for torrent weapon hits and melta adds bonuses whether in half distance or not; vanilla-only Anvil has its units count as being stationery if they move less than half their normal movement range; vanguard phobos unit weapons gain +1str and +1ap; Stormlance units can reroll wounds in melee against the oath target; 1st Company Task Force has all Vet/Terminator units gain +1 toughness and +1OC, etc. Basically, GW could use the opportunity to introduce a buff to Vanilla only units while also adding add'l levers for balance. Which ideally bifurcated points costs would do (but this is less admin for GW)
Either completely separate divergent marines from codex marines or get rid of them entirely. This half-way point right now means Codex marines can never be balanced properly.
sure, every non sm player, like me, might moan when thinking about EVEN MORE focus on marines, but they were able to do it for chaos marines. yeah, it makes sense to reuse kits for different factions, but why make every chaos legion its own thing then.
@@stefanw6665 we should just delete the codex defiant chapters. WE dont need sanguinary guards or deathwing knights or inner circle companions. Those are bladeguard veterans or jump pack veterans, We already need to cull like 50% of the SM roster anyway. Also grey knights and probably custodes with roster cuts should have been rolled into imperial agents and they should cull half of those kill teams pointless. Imperial knights should be trimmed and added to imperial agents as well. The chaos legions should be rolled back into CSM and have their roster culled as well. We dont need rubrics, plague, or berserkers just have legionnaires. Once we cull all the chaos and space marines rosters xenos players will stop complaining, plus way easier to balance.
i mean, i dont want to be ungrateful. if anything, they did focus xenos factions more than anything else in 10th with the nid redesign and kroots. nids have a huge playerbase atm, maybe that'll convince gw that nowadays stuff besides servo armor can sell well if done right. and sure, the sm range is so bloated it's horrible to start collecting. but deleting so many factions would be harsh. i'm still surprised they had the balls to cut harlequins and deathwatch without even mentioning it.
I feel like some "Codex Compliant" rules that only applies to the core chapters would give them fluffy lore justifications to give them a boost and differentiate them from the divergent chapters.
Reduce their massive datasheet pool by more than just low single digits. I am a primarily Astartes player. I have old models that will be rendered obsolete by this. I still think it should happen. After that, do something like in previous editions where there is an army-wide buff based on gene lineage and/or chapter themes. Before deployment, at the same time you are declaring embarked units and Enhancements and such, declare a Legacy from a list of options: Core codex Legacies: Ultramarines. Iron Hands. Salamanders. Raven Guard. White Scars. Imperial Fists. Unknown Founding. Then have the supplemental codices add three Legacies each: Example, Dark Angels: Legacy of The Unforgiven. Legacy of The Deathwing. Legacy of The Ravenwing. These "Legacy" choices are separate from named characters, but restrict them. For instance, if you choose the Raven Guard Legacy, all models that do not have a Chapter-specific keyword gain the "Raven Guard" keyword. Roboute Guilliman and Lion El'Johnson cannot be included at all, and Characters lacking the Raven Guard Keyword cannot be your Warlord. It's not lore-breaking for Chief Librarian Tigurius to be on some wild mission in which he is assisting some Raven Guard at some point, he just can't be in charge of them. Make the Legacy reference the chapter keyword, for example: Legacy of The Raven Guard: "Models with the Raven Guard and Phobos keywords can reroll wound roll results of 1 if they have the Benefit of Cover. Infantry models with the Raven Guard and Jump Pack keywords gain Lance on all melee attacks if it is the first time the unit has fought this battle." Something like that.
as to your ending point, the problem is there’s way too many primaris marine units now, which makes balancing impossible regardless. The firstborn cull isnt even the issue, the problem is they took for example 5 units and replaced them with 15. 15 units to balance for wvery divergent and vanilla
Every legion needs their own codex and roster. Period. That’s that absolute bare minimum and then generic “space marines” would be for your homebrew chapters and the like. It’s silly that some legions don’t even have more than one model when ultramarines probably have close to a hundred datasheets
they need to go back to having the divergent chapters be their own thing entirely again, or just put points for all the things in each book, as for example, jump intercessors are going to be better in BA then most other ways of building armys
Yeah but if divergent chapters have their own codex that means they don’t have to by two codex’s and some executive at GW won’t be able to get that extra Porsche they really want.
People aren’t playing Blood Angels or Space Wolves to run 60 Intercessors with bolt rifles. Letting core Space Marines have a 20-30% discount on some units would go a long way on balance.
If they don't want to add more units for the compliant chapters they could give certain units an extra little rule to help out. Infernus Marines: If your faction is Salamanders add +1 to the number of attacks of each Pyreblaster. Outriders: If your faction is White Scars add +1 to charge rolls made for this unit. Heavy Intercessors: If your faction is Imperial Fists add 1 to this unit's movement characteristic. Reivers: If your faction is Ravenguard this unit treats the current battle round as being 1 earlier for deploying from reserves. Firestrike Turret: If your faction is Iron Hands this unit's ranged weapons gain the assault keyword. Company Heroes: If your faction is Ultramarines this unit gains a 5+ invulnerable save. The individual rules could be different but I think these would be good units to give the buffs to because they fit the flavour and are also underused units.
Give them buffs via a special keyword rule, then add a second buff, if that keyword is taken with a certain detachment and its units so - Raven Guard rule: Plus 1 to hit and wound, in addition to striking first when attacking a lone operative, or a unit with a character attached. Detachment Buff: Any Phobos units in a Raven Guard Vanguard Detachment may shoot and charge in a turn they fell back. Something like this would buff them and promote you to take the detachment associated with your chapter.
Some quick ideas for improving the balance for SMs: Buff the detachments a little, and give the ones clearly aimed at specific chapters an extra bonus if used by said chapter (or equivalent home brew). Example: Vanguard gets additional range on the -1 to hit if you are Ravenguard (or a successor). Limit detachments the divergent chapters can access. Everyone gets Gladius, but (for example) Blood Angels aren't known for stealthily creeping up on opponents so can't use Vanguard. Rationalise some of the points costs for certain units. There are a lot of squads where the first half of the squad gets all the models with the special rules, so the second half is much less powerful- yet costs the same as the first half. Example: Infiltrators- first 5 models include the 6+++ and potential CP regen, but the second half costs just as much. Extra odd considering how they can't spread out that much to reliably prevent DS, and can in fact do this better by taking another first half of a squad! Example: A 2nd captain costs the same points as the first, but his CP reduction rule can only be used on 1 captain per turn. Either adjust said costs, or remove that restriction. Remove some of the silly nerfs and replace with more sensible ones. Example: Desolation squads were reduced to 5 man, but indirect has been nerfed since. Instead, make the missiles a limited number of shots (1 Vengor, 2 Krak, or 4 Frag), and bring back as up to 10. They're also over costed at present as their special rule does only half its job under the current 1-3 always misses rule. Ditch the two fixed sizes for most squads, and instead allow for a wider range of squad sizes. One of the biggest issues with the points changes is that they often don't affect an army overall as there is no where to spend some of the points gained and/or an increase in points just takes up the ones that couldn't be spent previously. Example: In the last two sets of changes one of the armies I was using simply went from 5 points I couldn't spend to 35, then to 15. The actual models (and upgrades) all stayed identical. Speaking of... Ditch the ridiculous quantity of 'free' upgrades (we're paying the points for them on every unit than can take them, even if we have no use for said upgrade), and put them in as actual costs. I don't mean the swapping of one item for another. Sometimes those are balanced, sometimes not. I mean the literal extra stuff like Hunter Killer Missiles and adding a Multimelta etc. Perhaps if my LandRaiders (which are in my army to take on elite units and tanks) were a few points cheaper because they didn't have the Storm Bolter I don't even bother firing half the time, then I could afford that extra unit I could do with having... However... Ultimately the game will not be as balanced as it could be due to 3 immediate factors: 1) Mortal Wounds are inherently unbalanced, removing more points per wound from elite hard to kill units than chaff, and from certain armies over others. (MWs were brought in to 8ED to counter something in 7ED which no longer existed) 2) Actions requiring giving up a shooting/melee to score will always favour certain armies over others, and certain units over others. (40pts not attacking is a much smaller sacrifice than 150!) 3) Special rules stack on the same roll, resulting in exponential increases in power rather than linear ones (eg crit on 5+, Re-roll to hit, Lethal, & Sustained- all on the same unit).
500 comments in 6 hours! I can see many people have just as strong feelings as I do on this topic. I am hoping for a rule buff to codex only, re-roll wounds or re-roll 1s to wound won’t really help for the reasons auspex suggested but something that would make units more resilient could be worth exploring, perhaps you get a unique strat, bring back transhuman physiology? (Sounds crazy but maybe it could help) 10th edition is all about getting rid of units and shipping them to Legends but I’m hoping 11th will bring back codex books for compliant chapters with not only characters but also units. UM should have Victrix that are as cool as sang guard, white scars should have a cool biker unit, and imperial fist should have some sort of breached squad
Probably the best route is to make it so the detachments do more out of the core codex, so they do x, y, and z if you play core codex and only x if you play then out of a divergent chapter
14:55 I completely disagree. Why should divergent chapters with their own detachment rules have access to the base ones???? Some armies have 4 detachments, but Space Wolves should have 8+?? Why! Let them only have their own detachments, then add some individual specific points costs for base codex units for divergent chapters, like Agents. E.g. Storm Talon cost is ONLY this high for Dark Angels moving forward. Easy fix, no big problem.
At one time I’m trying to remember where there was third or fourth edition, they had chapter flaws and chapter benefits. So depending on what army you were playing, you might have advantages and disadvantages. At the time I was a raven guard player so my assault squads were considered to be battle line and I could only have one terminator squad. so something like that might help along with coming up with enhancements or stratagems or faction rules for those chapters specifically. Of course, this would fly in the face of it “it doesn’t matter what color you paint your army”
Agents cleared the way for differentiated point costs, they should just stick to that. Hell, they could even do different points costs per detachements to keep a better control of the meta
Subtle approach would be Force Org Manip. Just adding a section saying something along the lines of If your army has the following chapter key words, the following become battle line. Salamanders - Infernus Marines Raven Guard - Rievers Etc. Pair this with adding some stats. A free 1 OC to everything in the army would be flavorful to Space Marines.
One other possibility, though it's really a variant of option 4 here, is to add a buff to the Army Rule for Codex Chapters based on their Legion (i.e their OG Chapter or the Chapter they're a successor of). So you'd add extra fast movement options for White Scars, better stealth for Raven Guard, flamer/melta bonuses for Salamanders etc. I think this would address the core problem, which is that despite each of the core Codex chapters still being unique in how they approach their tactics the actual Codex tries to reflect this purely through Detachments which are open to everyone. (And no, you wouldn't give the Templars the Fists Legion bonus, they have enough toys already.)
Custodes are the closest thing we have to lore accurate space marines. Sure, they're a bit lacking in vehicles, but they've got contemptor dreadnoughts, so you can actually play those legion specific models they sold like a week before sticking contemptors into legends. Stick a redemptor or that plastic leviathan you also bought a week before it got thrown into legends on a bigger base, run as telemon, and it's fine.
Probably not the best fix for this issue but could make it unique to codex space marines, and I feel the need to rant. Buff drop pods, up capacity to 12, make them dedicated, add capacity for gravis, and give them drop outside of 3". I think old model is fine but GW can make a new "primaris" pod to collect their pound of flesh. Marines are supposed to be shock troops, blitzkrieg! Stop nerfing land raiders, storm ravens, things that let marines act like marines. #makemarinesgreatagain
Codex marine’s definitely need a little more to stand out. They d feel a little over simplified compared to other factions. Put some fluff abilities back in for main chapters. Make the imperial fists tougher to kill on objectives for example. Not sure what to give the other chapters. But give them something.
It's just a dream: Release 10 Space Marines books with specific rules and units, one for each Chapter (original ones plus Black Templars), then the general Space Marines one just for general unites to be used in the other books. Then do the the same for the 9 Traitors legions. Obviously need to be realease more than one unit for each legion, not just an hero like with Ravenguard or one unit like with Night Lords.
Make them completely separate books. It would mean you can balance broken things within a single book without screwing over Compliant Chapters and you wouldn’t need two Codexes to play a Divergent one .
I think another simple option to buff codex marines is just giving each of the unique codex chapters (and any of their successors) a keyword that gives them a singular buff in each different detachment (like option 1 + 4), in terms of actual effect something in terms of your suggested OoM buff except it has a bit of fluff to it - i.e. for Gladius Salamanders "units with Salamanders keyword can re-roll 1s to wound for all weapons with both Ignores Cover and Torrent keywords" and something else for Ironstorm Salamanders; etc. This way as well, you're not forcing Salamanders to play Firestorm or Raven Guard to play Vanguard, but they still get "something more" for not just being a copy+pasted codex list and for wanting to play their particular chapter and not just "codex chapter no. x"
Generic space marines or "Personal" chapters, should have access to a couple of buff like in 9th when you had successor chapters rules. Something rather simple but useful.
I like the idea of giving codex compliant chapters index Oath, but I think a more flavourful way to solve the problem would be to expand the unit exclusions for non-compliant chapters. For example, DA shouldn't use Gravis armor because they have the Deathwing. That would make Gladius less powerful for them and encourage other chapters that have access to the most powerful combos in that detachment.
