The British Motorbike Industry - Domination to Destruction in 15 Years 

Try being Australian. The British look downright victorious. 🙄

Not exactly the same each time, as different industries died for different reasons; case in point being the aircraft industry, which declined due to government interference (at times even outright sabotage, as Handley Page in particular experienced), while Shipbuilding & the Cotton Mills was chiefly due to the trade unions stifling all serious efforts to modernise.

As one bloke puts it: "Once we were first, now we're the worst."

Either the moneyed class has its way - or . . . . (and you would never have caught them on two wheels, anyway). 💬 It is generally better for engineers to *_manage_* engineering companies than financiers. You would think it obvious, perhaps. But it is less obvious to a financier, obviously.

@richardxiong5016 Less so now though 🙂 . For the worst we only need to point to China 😂

*Brittan ? Surely **_Great Britain_** !*

Britain also!

Indeed, we are seeing the same trend in the US as well…😞

Kind of. Cars & Aerospace were lost to Political interference, whereas the Motorbike industry was largely its own victim.

you forgot trains

@micahthedrumcorpspseudoboo7250 Not really. Trains went down the same drain as Aircraft; politicians thinking they knew how to regulate, and then how to run things (spoiler: they didn't).

No company operates in a vacuum, the environment they are in as the biggest effect on if they are successful, look at British industry and business today weighed down with excessive taxation and regulation, while totally exposed to cheaper competition from abroad. The problem is we keep voting for incompetent and corrupt group of largely middle class politicians from a legal and journalistic background.

They had all the latest tech and CAD a first for a British motorcycle company, if the events of 71 had not have happened then Umberslade Hall would have gone on to great things. Brad Jones's book From the Inside, is an is a well researched book about Umberslade Hall, full of first hand experiences by people like Steve Matten, like all Brad's books on BSA during this period it is a brilliant well written and researched book.

@@jasonhull1342 What appears to be the best written and rearched book on BSA is Barry Ryerson'sThe Giants of Small Heath. He has this to say about Slumbergate Hall. "Umberslade Hall was expensive; the cost was officially put at around £1.5 million a years; and it produced astonishingly little that could be produced and sold. "

The best book about umberslade Hall is Brad One's book called from the inside, the book is dedicated to Umberslade Hall with interviews from people who either worked there or were associated with there, it also contains some never before seen photos. Giants of Smallheath is an excellent book but its subject is much broader than just Umberslade and the final few years at BSA

That should say Brad Jones

Yes the tale told by the people who worked there, many of whom knew little about motorbikes. People like Bert Hopwood an dDoug Hele, who did know about bikes, were rightly critical of the place and it's output.

I took a rapide for a while (the twins went in order of tune: rapide, black shadow, and black lightning) and apart from the novel riding position (up high and quite foward: I'm 6' 2" but that shouldn't have mattered) I'm afraid I can't comment on the handling as I was petrified of doing anything untoward on someone else's rather pricey icon. I did get the impression why they were a legend in their own lifetime: it felt next level. When you consider Russell Wright took his road going black lightning to the world record of 185mph on a rather skinny public road it really says a lot. I still dream of a brough ss100 though

Riding a motorcycle in 1950 s Britain on weekends was fun, riding to work everyday in all weather wasn’t. People wanted cars .

You have to look into the Vincent "frame". You will be surprised.

Sometimes the best people simply choose to work in other growing and upcoming industries.

Best? You need a door to step through and a window in time. Luckiest? 😎@@R.-.

When Britain lead the industrial revolution, our best people were at the forefront and started the motorcycle industry. By the 1950s-60s there were a multitude of other industries to attract the best talent from nuclear, aviation, materials / chemicals to electronics and computing. Many of these industries are linked to defence. Germany, Italy and Japan were militarily restrained after WW2, so their best people would work in non-military related industries such as designing better motorcycles and motorcycle production lines.

With Murray Walker commentating? I think it was his first gig.

@@adow77 it probably was but I was too young to have noticed.

Scott and Douglas were built in England by Scottish people, Triumph and Velocette also built in England but were built by Germans

@@jasonhill4094 so what? migrant workers don't decide the nationality of the company they work for.

@@thearmchairspacemanOG sorry you misunderstood Triumph was founded by Jewish German and Velocette was also founded by a German family Bertie Goodman

@@jasonhill4094 so even less ''british'' than i suspected eh? .. the anglo-norman plot thickens...

Oh yes my friend! What you wrote it’s absolutely true! I don’t know any Scottish or welsh motorcycles Brend ! ahahahahah! 😜👍England Uber alles as Germans says!

They thought they where going to rule the world, so they didn't look to improve too much. German, French, Italians, Japanese... well, they did.

And everyone blames the unions. By the way, I'm not a union man, but it's the same story time and time again, everywhere. When management and government start blaming unions, you know that the management and governance has made grave mistakes.

@@davidbrayshaw3529 Too right. My great Uncle worked in the Amal (of carburettor fame) offices. I asked him how I might improve my bike's carburation and not only did he not have a clue how carbs operated, he was slightly insulted I should expect him, white collar person, to know how 'the oily bits' worked. *In Japan that attitude would have seen folk sacked* ........ Join the dots.

@@babboon5764 The Japanese production systems after the War (based on the Deming system which was ignored in the West) involved amongst other things encouraging people at every level of the organisation to suggest improvements to the product and to the manufacturing process. One of the results of this was their ability to produce a range of products from a fairly small manufacturing base. Japan is hierarchical, but they had the sense to treat their people as assets, rather than costs.

‘Complacency and mismanagement’. You took the words out of my mouth. Bert Hopwood had plenty of innovative, modular designs that could have excited the motorcycle-buying public but by then it was too late - the money had run out.

Had a mate with a Trident. He said its best feature was that it had an automatic oil level warning system. It told you when it was time to put some oil in because it stopped dripping ...

Some years ago , about 20 , I was working for a motorcycle shop in Sydney ( Australia ) . On the showroom floor we had a Honda CB750 and a Triumph Bonneville. Both from the same year , 1969 , but the Triumph looked like it was from several decades prior .

Aren't these minor niggles what real bikers call "character"? 😇

Minor niggles for some bewitching for others a . . . .@@peter7624

That's a very good thing as it help understand the problem and the scope of improvement of the product within the management !!! . That's why Royal Enfield sells fun and happiness !!!

Yes, rather different from Lord Docker and his wife. They just wanted the money and the prestige.

My East German car built in 1988 has an engine that was developed from the pre war DKW two stroke engines. It gives 26hp from 595cc running on 50:1 petrol.

Yes, and ironically the design of the most produced British bike, the BSA Bantam was pinched from a German manufacturer, DKW.

@@hereandthere4763 that's interesting to know!

I found Korner to be confused parts of his book are very good but he claims the British motorcycle industry lacked a small lightweight bike yet BSA had the bantam and Villiers supplied engines to many a British motorcycle company.

@@jasonhull1342 what he does is show that the British industry de-emphasised smaller machines and put less development time and money onto them. The Bantam is a case in point - they got that from DKW and it underwent little development over it's life, taking ages to gain a 4th gear and never getting automatic oiling or 12v electrics. Villiers were similar and it's telling that the British manufacturers relied on external suppliers - villiers - and didn't develope their own engines, except for the AMC piatti failure which was essentially an attempt to do villiers on the cheap. None of the British factories built ranges from the bottom and none of them tried to create mass market "consumer durables" for the commuter.

Imagining a post war environment in Britain's motorcycle industry, without the war, is difficult. There are just so many variables that the war brought with it in the terms of technology, global wealth distribution, treaties and trends, that it is almost impossible to predict a "what if" scenario. Clearly, a lack of investment in the motorcycle industry was a post war trend. But it is arguable that this trend didn't start post war, but rather pre war. And it is arguable that this lack of investment wasn't contained to motorcycles, but it was rather much a hangover from the depression and a hubris that comes following such a prolonged and sustained position at "the top" throughout the industrial revolution. Whether we like it or not, the USA hit the 20th century running, by comparison to Britain. They had mastered the assembly line and mass manufacturing. And they had mastered an economy in which markets grew (they forgot about that, 40 years ago!). Britain didn't respond. Same old, same old. Same old production techniques, same old management of the economy. My own grandfather was a reasonably wealthy wool merchant in Yorkshire. Prior to the war, his pride and joy was a Brough Superior. At the same time, the likes of his employees in the USA, were driving cars. And no, I don't have the Brough! Yes, I'm stating that to get a bit of a boast in about my families status, nearly a hundred years ago. And I'm using an anecdote that should appeal to motorcyclists. But I'm also using that anecdote to draw a picture of just how far behind the eight ball Britain was rapidly becoming, by that time. You are obviously very well versed in the post war history of Britain's bike industry. I hope that I've given you something to ponder in relation to that.

@@davidbrayshaw3529 You're right about the performance of the British economy in the early 20th century, although it's worth remebering that there were depressions in the UK back in the 1890s and a real concern pre-WW1 that we were "losing out" to the USA and Germany. I always point out that Britain was "the workshop of the world", not the factory. That tells you about the scale of British industry, workshop based, artisanal production. Whilst it's true we did move to production line assembly, the motorcycle industry was too small to do this in a meaningful way. They lacked the capital to invest in major production line facilities, very much focused on in-house manufacture (workshop of the world again) and shareholders were keen to ensure that dividends were paid, rather than be reinvested. The result of this was that British factories tended to move towards more high value products, not commuter bikes, hence the "segmented retreat" from the small bike market which started early on, pre war.

In all fairness, the 1890's depression was global, not just isolated to Britain. And it followed a string of "boom bust" cycles that were rather much a feature of advanced economies in the 18th and 19th century. A little off subject, but I am still staggered today that there has been such a push over the last 40 years from conservatives with a will to return the world's economies back to as they were at this time. It is interesting to learn that Britain was concerned about "losing out" to advancing economies, in the early twentieth century. I have a vision of complacency at that time, fuelled by substantial wealth in the ruling classes and a steady diet of produce from the colonies, one of in which I live, Australia. If the likes of the USA and Germany were the factories of the world and Britain was the workshop, we were the shearing shed, and little more, at that time. It is often reported that the demise of the British bike industry was due to a lack of investment post war, for the reasons that you mention. A former employer of mine actually did his B.A. thesis on that very subject. And while that is certainly the case, in my opinion, the chronology is somewhat skewed to fit a narrative that focuses a little to much on the advantages that Germany, Japan and the USA had, post war, rather than the lack of investment and development in Britain, pre war. For that, I find fault in that it fails to accurately portray in full the economic mismanagement of Britain throughout the entire 20th century Britain was the unrivalled leader in technology in the 18th and 19th century. In addition to this it was also home to a disproportionate number of highly skilled trades people. This did not change as Britain entered the 20th century. What did change was the value that was placed on such people, and, as a consequence, there was a failure to invest in endeavours that drew from this pool of talent. An unintended consequence of this was that this neglect failed to enrich and create a large untapped market. The likes of the USA, however, during the same period realised the potential wealth that could be drawn from this market and took full opportunity to capitalise on it. The USA realised that the if they could make more people with money, they could make more money from people. Of course, that thinking would change as we neared the end of the century but it had been the recipe for economic success in the years prior. I realise that I'm starting to sound like a closet communist or similar. I'm not. I'm far from it actually. And I'm not a unionist either! But populist history points the finger of economic demise in Britain at the working classes and their God forsaken unions and incessant pay demands. But the truth of the matter is that by this stage, a century or more of keeping this group on the poverty line was a dire mistake. They were potential demand that was never realised. And it was a lot of unrealised demand. It was this in combination with the will of CEO's to write dividend cheques rather than invest in plant that hurt Britain so badly. But the history has never been written that way. The "winners" win the right to write the history. It has always been thus. And history repeats. How's your housing boom going, by the way? Ours is going gangbusters! Wealth generation everywhere! Well, almost everywhere. As long as my tenants continue to give more in return for the same, everything will be just fine. If they can't afford to buy groceries or pay the utilities, that's their problem, not mine. And as long as my holdings in the major supermarkets and the utility companies keep paying dividends, I'll be doing very well, thankyou very much. Yep, history repeats. @@stewartellinson8846

It was a joke on 3 wheels which shamed the once great Ariel company.

I think this refers to BSA at the time a huge and diverse engineering group. In 1961 motorcycles only accounted for 30% of group activity. Many on the board and some of the big share holders wanted BSA out of motorcycle production, seeing it as dirty old fashioned form of transport often the people who rode them were seen as either inferior to car drivers or hooligans. Then there was also the label of child killer that was leveled at BSA and Triumph because of the amount of young man killed on their powerful machines. The reason BSA stayed in the motorcycle industry was profits were still good., right up until they missed the US selling season I 71

@@jasonhill4094 I see. Well it's an unfortunate state of affairs, not to mention poor business practice. A small proportion of sales it may of been but it seemed to be the death knell for BSA. Thanks for the informative advice though 👍

My welding instructor mentioned that the steel industry also was able to start with new equipment and so made better steel and steel alloys. Ronn

@@ronnronn55 a new broom sweeps clean.

How, in only a few years, Britain went from having the largest merchant fleet to one of the smallest.

It will take a mini series to do that subject justice,the antics of the unions, inept management and incompetent government interference made for an industrial catastrophe! Very sad,I sometimes wonder whether the natives of this island have an inbuilt self destruct gene?

I think it has to do with the tribe that Oliver Cromwell let in after being banished for several centuries.

​@@android584 the same tribe that... rebuilt Germany and Japan into the top 5 largest economies on the planet?

My understanding there was a lot of head in the sand and arrogance, which was the same in the car world. I can remember seeing an interview with sir Roger Moore when they were looking for a car for the Saint they approached British manufacturers as they thought that would show loyalty and be very British for him. why would we be interested in doing that for you, Was the reply ! you can pay full market price for it -despite giving it free advertising , oh and go to the back of the line , as we can sell every car we make. Volvo on the other hand was very keen to be involved. Saw the benefit and gave a P 1800 at very good terms, the rest was history. The P 1800 and Volvo would go on to be very much more popular than I suspect it would have been was it not for the very public promotion and dashing image provided by Roger Moore in the Saint

@@malcolmwhite6588 In the US, back in the 1970s my neighbor had a P 1800, it was a nice car.

@@bloqk16 yes I nearly brought one in the late 80s early 90s - it wasn’t price too bad I wish I had. It would be worth a fortune now LOL they were lovely cars and Roger Moore said he always enjoyed driving them and that the Volvo people were super nice to deal with

It wasn’t just triumph. It was all the brands.

@@malcolmwhite6588 yup

I was looking for this comment. You should have received an acknowledgement and a ❤ from the creator, so here's one from me instead. ❤

Having now watched the whole video (always best practice) I think we should give him a bye. He did correctly refer to BSA as Birmingham Small Arms further into the piece. He most likely just mispoke. Still a good catch though, if premature.

Quite a few Triumphs are made overseas - Thailand and Brazil.

All the comments about how bad British motorcycle were might have some truth, my first motorcycle was a 200cc Tigre Cub, and yes it leaked, but i would buy a Vincent Black Shadow in preference of any other bike on the planet, and I am Italian.

The world preferred Japanese motorcycle charisma to British motorcycle charisma. Miracle of convenience Honda Cub.

You Forgot to mention the Clark Scamp.....it made the ones on your list seem O.K.

Oh, I’m not sure of tandems are the answer

The simple truth is no conspiracy, it's down to economics. In Japan and the rest of the Far East demand for motorcycles is huge they buy motorcycles by the millions rather that 10s or 100s of thousands here in the West. This means that when Japanese company approach a bank with the intention of acquiring a loan, not was the loan more likely to be granted but it would also be at a much lower interest rate. Where in Britain if a motorcycle company tried to get finance the chances of success would be at best low and successful the interest rate would be high and length of the pay back short. Only BSA could borrow money and then usually because of their wide engineering interests.

@@jasonhill4094 Logically speaking I was actually talking about 1946, 1947 onwards. There was no large market for motorcycles in Asia at the time. However the Venture capitalists started gradually withholding funds from ALL English industry. After 20 years most of it was dust.

@@Lyingleyen You could have a point despite having one of the biggest banking industries in the world, our banks hate lending money to industry and manufacturing in particular. A lot of British money was hidden in places like Hong-Kong during the high taxation years, Money that would be used to transform China.

On my way to listen to not know john...thanks.

I'm back. What a song and video! Floyd is great...had to listen "in ear." Now I will find lyrics. Thanks

Eeh. Price isn't everything. That, and Kawasaki would always be my preference over a Honda.

“Similar”

Car are safer, but not as much fun.

More pits closed under Labour than the CONservatives, Labour did not crown themselves in glory either re British Shipbuilding or consolidation of steelmaking, especially in the Sheffield area. That said I loathe the Legacy Political class in its entirety, their membership of the Fabian Society on both sides of the House will tell you all you need to know regarding their real agenda and where their loyalties really lay. However I do not disagree with the content of your post. This country has been deliberately deindustrialized and deliberately de skilled and all from within.

🤢🤫 Wow, how exciting for you. Your mommy must be so proud of you ?...

In order to have done that they would have to have reduced demand for British bikes, the irony is damand increased during this period. As for the Japanese they redeemed the image of motorcycling, turning it from a dirty old fashioned form of transport often ridden by hooligans to a clean sensible and recreational past time ridden by a much larger demographic

@@jasonhill4094 what was the slgons Honda had ...."you meet the nicest people on a Honda"......and "a 100,000 peolpe can't be wrong"....and obviously the british bike industry didnt go away completley but as far as reliability,social image and acceptence by the average person,then yes the japanese did destroy the british bike industry so my piont stands.

@@jaws666 like I said in order for the Japanese to have been responsible for the British motorcycle industries demise, then they would have had to have taken sales away from them, but demand for British bikes was outstripping supply during the late 60s early 70s. The last year of production for the Norton Commando demand had never been higher but NVT was in financial trouble due to the loss of 2 years Triumph production at Meriden,.

@@jasonhill4094in the uk the demand for british bikes may still have been healthy but worldwide they fell in comparison to the sales the japanese achived and as far as the NVT situation is concerned im well aware of that...and speaking of NVT their "Tracker" trail bike was mostly a straight up copy of the Yamaha DT trail bike.

🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱🤫

He says "Birmingham"

​@@andrewemery4272at 1:36 he does say British not Birmingham. Just another example of a lack of proof reading his scripts.

I bet our presenter does have a clue about the actual conditions of the UK's roads in WW2. Wi fi g, yes, dark, well that's a given thanks to the black-out. Uneven? Who knows, but as the roads were vital to the war effort I bet they were well kept.

@@neiloflongbeck5705 that's when I stopped the video and wrote the 1st part of the comment.

05:44 Birmingham