I think it's far too simplistic to try and separate people into "pro-immigration" and "anti-immigration". I think most people would hold a nuanced view: We want a reasonable number of immigrants with useful skills, who integrate comfortably. And we have some moral obligation to help people fleeing war and oppression. But it's just not sensible to issue more visas than there are available homes.
I work in multi-ethnic teams. I absolutely respect the 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants I work with and our society would be less if we didnt allow immigration. However, it is absolutely clear to me that immigration has been a band-aid fix to a crippled NHS that is bleeding all it's homegrown staff. While simultaneously undermining the wages or the working class. Fix the NHS by giving better working conditions, then we might not be losing 10,000-20,000 NHS staff a year and having to replace them with workers from wherever. The left cannot get their head round this issue. Immigration is not a fix, it is a temporary solution to a permanent problem.
@@chrisdrakes2332 I would say immigration can sometimes be a more permanent solution. For example it makes sense that we might want to have steady stream of nurses arriving from overseas. Some of whom will return home, and some of whom will eventually become citizens. Especially if we have an aging population. But we should also be training more locals. And improving working conditions. And we can't possibly sustain an annual net migration which is roughly the population of Liverpool. There aren't enough homes, and it would be impossible to build that many.
@@andybrice2711 So your "permanent" solution is to bring more people in to an ever aging population and prop it up by immigration? That is not sustainable. We are not self-sustaining and eventually those nurses may seek jobs in other countries. You cannot predict the flow of nurses from other countries. You're just assuming that the status quo will continue, which is naive at best.
to say people are just 'bored' of trudeau is just ridiculous I'm sorry. I'm a long time listener but I feel like you're both deliberately ignoring some glaring obvious issues with his premiership by saying that
@@bencarroll1122 My guess is that you know next to nothing about Rory. You are annoyed by his viewpoint on Canadian politics so without offering any opposing information you simply resort to a personal attack. Usually the sign of someone who cannot coherently respond to a viewpoint that differs from theirs.
The Rwanda bill stinks of backhanders. It also makes a mockery of UK law; to change the law to make something legal that is morally repugnant gives a firm message that the law is not aligned with morality. A stark illustration that the modern legal system is a tool for control, not for protection.
@@hmacklemore2226 I’d imagine it’s for the same reason that people in the US are “frustrated” and can’t really explain why except for “everything’s more expensive now and I don’t feel as secure as I used to.”- we can wallpaper reality in whatever fun pattern we want, but the “developing world” is fast becoming the “also developed world” and there’s less to go around for us folks who’ve become accustomed to a certain degree of economic stability and a certain standard of living. That spells angst at the ballot box.
@@hmacklemore2226 which is why Rory in particular is so frustrating, always prattling on about economic growth when there’s monumental economic growth happening in our globalized economy - just not as disproportionately in the developed west as it used to be.
@@hmacklemore2226 Very short answer, millennials who votes for Trudeau in 2015 can not buy houses in 2024. The up and coming generation Z also can not get into the housing market. Older generations are mad their kids are getting the shaft and will likely be poorer then them. Canada has the largest housing bubble in the western world. People are mad, not bored. I take issue with other things they said but I gave the shortest answer I could.
@@bencarroll1122 Yes, Rory does tend to anchor political trends in other developed nations too firmly to economic growth data. Obviously it matters, but the degree to which he uses it as the explanatory variable of trends is disproportionate. His thinking-equation requires more dimensions.
Saying 'Canadians are just bored of him' is like saying "Brits are just bored of the Tories". Severely shuttered viewpoint on why Trudeau needs to be voted out.
A word from one of your American viewers. Nobody in this country considers Anthony Scaramucci a serious political voice. Nobody in this country thinks that Anthony Scaramucci comported himself effectively during his incredibly brief tenure in government. This does not make you seem serious. It very much makes you seem at best naive.
Best way to reduce immigration is to stop supporting corrupt governments and international corporations stealing the wealth of these countries. Work to develop their economies and not attack them like what we did in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.
Who are the non corrupt governments that we should work to help develop their economy? I agree we shouldn't have interfered militarily in the Iraq, syria, Libya, but those leaders were as corrupt as it gets and much worse. You say "stop supporting corrupt governments" but at the same time "work to develop their economies" instead. Thats completely contradictory. Your argument would be far more coherent if you said don't interfere in those countries in any way whatsoever and leave them to it. Which i would agree with btw, as it's a total waste of money, because.. insane corruption.. Also, that wouldn't reduce immigration at all, it might affect illegal migration but then again, it might not. Many migrants crossing in small boats are coming from places that we haven't interfered with.
That's a very valid point, and one I've been making myself over the previous 2 decades. It's also an argument that sends your average anti-immigrant gammon into a fit of cognitive dissonance, because they fully supported those conflicts and invasions.
As a Canadian, I felt you minimized a lot of Trudeau's wrong doings. Saying he hasn't done anything major for people wanting him out is crazy as a Canadian who has followed his career closely.
@@purple467 Scandals under Trudeau are SCN Lavalin, Blackface, We Charity, ArriveCan and Chinese interference . All of which are more serious that Party Gate in the UK. There are probably more I'm missing too. Trudeau was elected with great enthusiasm from Millennials, which i am one. Trudeau has overseen the biggest housing bubble currently taking place in the Western World. Add the absorbent cost of living and yearly increase in the carbon tax and Millennials (and Gen Z) want him gone. Thats the short of it.
As a Canadian who has lived here my entire life, I'll tell you that there is no chance of Trudeau being forced out by the Liberal party. It's rigidly under his control. Also, on his successor, it could be Mark Carney, but he'll have to compete against Chrystia Freeland. Also, in Canada our parties basically discriminate against anyone who can't speak excellent French, so Carney would have to work on his French quite a bit if he hoped to get the nomination.
I can confirm that I am not a political nerd but I love listening to Rory and Alastair. I cannot get enough of them talking about such a diverse range of political issues. Keep it up boys!
Shame their opinions aren’t very diverse, though. They’re both centre-left and have “their view”. (Rory Stewart might take exception to that but actions speak louder than words, he’s a bleeding-heart toff, silver spoon, whose general reaction to political life has been as a rabbit in headlights. His predictions and insight into politics are about as much use as a split bucket. He sounds good saying it though.)
Just a bit of a correction. The total of the US aid package is $95.3 billion; about $60 billion is for Ukraine. That 6 month delay in passage cost thousands of lives. The GOP in the US are horrendous…. Marjorie Taylor Greene, sadly from my home state of Georgia, is an embarrassment….
Hey Rory, the split in the Canadian Liberal party (and NDP) is a split between Provincial versus Federal parties. Provincial are more conservative and chaotic. Federal/National are more consistent but self-obsessed.
The "sicknote culture". I have a job. I'm off work sick and have been for 22 months. I've been waiting to see a specialist for my PHYSICAL illness for 18 months of that, waiting for a diagnosis for 4 months of that. Again I HAVE a job, I WANT to go back to work. But the state of the NHS now is that I can't get any help.
I retired early after three years of increasingly debilitating fatigue which I think is lond covid. Rather than sickening, I'm now living on my savings, which thank God I have.
Canadian here. Agree that Mark Carney is great, would love to see him in politics, but look to what happened to Michael Ignatieff when he was leader of the Liberal Party of Canada. He came in and went straight to being leader, and was gone within a few months. PET (Justin's father) had time as a cabinet minister before becoming leader, that would be a better path for Carney to follow.
Rory and Alistair, I think you have misread the dislike of Trudeau in Canada. Perhaps bring some unbiased Canadian experts on show to discuss why he is so disliked.
@@dragonsnightmare6061 This channel is actually really good, but they aren't experts on everything/every country and they have just missed the issues with Trudeau and his govt. Otherwise this is a good channel.
@@kerryobrien71they consistently miss the mark about US politics as well - as evidenced by their recent partnership with Anthony Scaramucci for their US spinoff podcast. Alastair has a better grasp of American sentiment than Rory. Surprising considering Rory is married to an American….
Justin Trudeau was not Pierre Trudeau's pick to groom for political office, Michel (who died in a skiing accident) was, Pierre did not think Justin was smart enough. Rory said he had just come back from Canada, Vancouver is very much not representative of most of Canada. Firstly, Trudeau's win in 2015 was a vote against Harper, not a vote for Trudeau. Why are more people against Trudeau? It could be that on at least three occasions he has been found guilty by the parliamentary ethics commission, and just ignored their findings. It could be he has bought in some of the most draconian hate speech laws going. It could be that he set a precedent that allows the government to seize your bank account if you disagree with them. It could be that he called a significant proportion of the citizens, racists, mysogynists and idiots (talking about people who decided not to get vaccinated). It could be that in his tenure the size of government has grown by 40% (when I arrived from the UK in the early 90's the government employed directly or indirectly just under 50% of the population). It could be that next year in a population of 38 million, he wants to allow 1.2 million immigrants, even though we already have an extreme housing shortage. It could be that he has put in an extortionate carbon tax that is driving house hold cost skywards (even though Canada is actually a carbon negative country). I could go on, land grab, demonization of small farmers and more. Canada as you know is a very large. sparsely populated country, and most of the politics from all parties is extremely metrocentric. If you live outside of the 5 or 6 larger cities, your needs are almost always ignored.
Canada is not a carbon negative country, you have the 7th highest carbon emissions per person in the world. The only countries with worse carbon emissions per head are micro nations and petrostates.
@@Jay_Johnson I looked into my reply about the amount of trees and carbon capture. I was always taught that the Amazon were the lungs of the world, because they absorb so much CO2. Apparently that's wrong now! According to the latest report 26% of Canada's carbon emissions come from our forests, who knew. But this beggars a question, if 1/4 of our emissions come from our trees, why has the government pledged to plant another 2 billion of them? Does seem strange don't you think?
Outside of certain echo chambers and demographics, they really aren't. It's rarely polled as a top/most salient issue since Brexit and attitudes are more relaxed than ever in a long-term perspective. See the work of the University of Manchester academic Rob Ford for example.
@@Imaginary_Life_UK forgive me for deferring to a leading scholar rather than the RU-vid comments section. Yes, the polls can fluctuate but it's important to look at the long-term trajectory. I would highly recommend Ford's lecture on immigration attitudes over time.
@@Imaginary_Life_UK This is a pretty ignorant comment. I only cited Ford in particular because he's quite prominent in the media and his lectures are on RU-vid, it's not a fringe view (he works with the BES and social attitudes surveys like everyone else, nothing had to be 'found' to fit my view). No pretending here from me, of course certain sections of society overestimate the levels and 'severity' of immigration and in fact this is something that the aforementioned work explores in depth. Perhaps you should actually engage with what you're arguing about rather than dismissing it out of hand. Furthermore, I did say 'rarely' which implies there are exceptions over time. And if you knew anything about the scholarship on Brexit and immigration then you would certainly not make that last comment about these particular researchers who were banging on about the rise of UKIP long before most people took them seriously. It isn't the cause-effect you make it out to be (things rarely are).
@@Imaginary_Life_UK you've clearly got a bee in your bonnet because the distorting effects of echo chambers/the relationship between social attitudes and age, social class etc are well established, hardly a snide comment. As for the rest, well I just looked in YouGov and you can clearly see that it's spent most of the decade at sub 30% overall and even right now it's less than 40%. So I am not wrong in challenging the original comment on their view that most people in Britain are disproportionately preoccupied with immigration as a political priority. It also remains a fact that there is excellent scholarship out there that puts your narrative to bed that you're choosing to ignore here because you believe I've sought it out through some kind of confirmation bias.
@@ElliottStanleyRob Ford isn’t a big respected name. Go look up the work of someone who would actually know, like Matt Goodwin of the University of Kent. He’s the only one of his ilk who accurately predicted Brexit and understood why it happened. Much more use to you than the one academic you managed to find that agrees with your stance while using polls badly.
There are two problems. 1. Many politicians do not know the difference between right and wrong. 2. No accountability. Corruption, and or wrongdoing should result in prison. No ifs or buts. Until this happens NOTHING will change. Yes, some will still lack integrity.
As a Canadian, the sooner Turdeau and the Liberals go, the better. Justin Turdeau was a snow boarding instructor and a teacher, brought in by the Liberals (using name recognition only) to revive the Liberals terrible image after Martin and the Gomery report. Turdeau is a leader in name only, one of the most divisive and ineffective Liberal leaders to stay in power (in minority governments), the sooner he goes the better off Canada will be.
Concern about immigration is not about bigotry or lack of care. People in affluent areas don't see the immigrant population increasing daily and being placed in new housing. Locals stay on housing waiting lists for years, putting pressure on the private rental market so rental costs soar. Immigration is not something we can afford and is having a direct and detrimental effect on the quality of life in very many UK towns and cities. Locals are suffering, please see this.
I could understand immigration if we were importing high skilled workers but we're importing people from South Africa to work as cleaners, it's ridiculous. But these two don't live or work in the sort of sectors where they could see this.
less than 5% of immigration is from small boats arrivals 92% are legitimate asylum seekers fleeing persecution according to the home office, less than 0.5% of immigrants are economic immigrants arriving via small boats. Caring about immigration should be about reducing visa numbers not drowning asylum seekers. The vast vast majority of economic immigrants are issued visas of which the numbers are controlled by the government. If you truly care about immigration vote for a party that will reduce Visa numbers not "Stop the boats". Labour have promised to change visa requirements to reduce the numbers. Alternatively vote for parties promising to build more houses and council houses to address those waiting lists. 'Right to buy' and the defunding of local councils destroyed the social housing system not immigration. Labour are promising to build houses, Labour are promising to build Social homes, Labour have promised to allow Councils to raise council taxes in line with inflation so they aren't forced to sell off council homes to pay for increasing day to day spending. Whether you trust Labour to be able to enact these policies or not the Tories have promised to reduce immigration every election and leader since 2010 and look where we are now.
The usual argument I see in opposition is that we just need to build more houses and schools. However, we are importing a population larger than the size of Manchester every year. It's crazy, and is making the lives of ordinary people worse by increasing rent and suppressing wages. There are millions of people living here from an immigrant background, and this level of immigration is also making their lives worse. This huge level of immigration is essentially a treasury ponzi scheme, where they can make a quick £ from one off visa fees while throwing people and future prosperity under the bus. You need a total lifetime income of £2.46m to be a net contributor to tax. About 60 years of earning £40k. The majority of people will never meet this, let alone the hundreds of thousands of low skilled immigrants we import every year. The Tories are just happy to say GDP increased by 0.01%, whilst living standards plummet due to their policies. That's not even considering the social impact. A Tory minister suggested releasing immigration crime stats to give 'balance' to the debate, indicating they are likely to be pretty shocking. I work in financial crime for a bank, and at least 50% of accounts that are reported to the NCA are from people who signed up with foreign passports or biometric residency permits. Stating this is problematic, because it paints a broad brush which is unfair to the law abiding majority; however, it is a very important point that should be part of the debate.
@@orangutanfan3179 I'd say it can also make sense to import lower-skilled workers, especially if they're vital jobs, and the local population are reluctant to do them. Migrant care-workers seem to be a net positive, for example. But we have to weigh that against the increased pressure on housing, infrastructure, and public services. And the possibility for undercutting the wages of working-class people. We've tended to overlook those downsides.
If Tucker Carlson is the most favoured person to replace Trump that is all we need to know about the state of the Republican party. So thanks Katty Kay. Job done in helping us understand American politics.
We are bored with everything in the country getting worse at every opportunity. GDP per capita continues to decline. Quality of life is declining even faster.
As a a British Expat/Canadian in Ontario (which has a Conservative Provincial Government) I fear a Federal Conservative Prime Minister more, than another Liberal one. Our services (Health, Education, and local social services) have deteriorated beyond recognition since Ford (our Conservative Premier) took power! The thought of our Federal responsibilities in a Conservative’s hands is horrifying… when the Conservative Party wants an abortion rights review, back on the cards again, it’s time to worry! It’s like the influence of the US Republican Party is leaching into our country! Sadly, many people, here, are not engaged enough to care…. Trudeau has been shown time and time again, to be a puppet for the BIG Corporations… his downfall is his own doing! It’s time for change, but I’m worried about jumping out of the frying pan and into a fire!
"it sounds like a Rudy Giuliani press conference" 😂😂 i died. i love you guys ❤ your span of knowledge, and your wit and sharp minds, your devotion to work for humanity that icludes challenging yourself (and others) to dig deep for motives and arguments... all that while always staying warm and relatable and being able to respect people with opposing opinions (and challenging them and yourself while addressing that without fear or contempt). i deeply appreciate all your work. lots of love from austria ❤
An interesting conclusion that begs a few questions IMHO. 1. What evidence do you have that it will be a sustained level of migration rather than a temporary increase following the loss of freedom of movement from Brexit? 2. What evidence do you have that the UK cannot comfortably deal with migration at its current levels? eg migrants will tend to work here, pay higher taxes (NHS surcharge as an example) and then return to their mother country at some point, etc. The same goes for foreign students to an even greater extent since their stay is limited by the length of their study. Doesn't this extra tax revenue give the government the funds to improve public services for everyone?
@@Rustinho 1. I think you're probably correct that 750K was an outlier. But it is still reasonable to specify an upper limit for the future. 2. The evidence that it's unsustainable is simple: The current levels vastly outstrip the available housing supply. 750K is roughly the population of Liverpool. It's not feasible to build a new Liverpool every year. And even if it were, it would be environmentally devastating. There is an argument to be made that we should build more homes to accommodate a larger population. But even then, we'd have to build the homes first.
@@Rustinho No one can answer question 2 because the government doesn't collect (or atleast publish) tax contribution data by settlement/immigration status - they could do this, regardless of stance on immigration you should support this data collection and publication so that the debate is informed by empirics. You're first question is just silly because you're asking for evidence about the some future event, we can reasonably expect that immigration will fall in the next few years not because of any post-brexit outlier effect but Sunak's increased spousal visa threshold and limits on student visa dependants (150,000 people who were given student visas in 2023 weren't students). Point being future immigration is a result of many different policy choices and therefore difficult to predict or assign causality.
I like when people say this, as If we had a choice. Net Migration will be over 500,000 from now until the end of the century. It is out of the Democractic debate, its not an issue you can change. Every party, except whatever version of UKIP exists, wants this. Labour, Conservative, SNP, Lib Dem, Green. They may say they don't, but look at the results. Why are you argueing, whats the point.
Your analysis on the narrow breadth of Canadian ideology is apt! And has served us well.I voted for Pierre Trudeau in my first election, and for Justin in my most recent elections. The centre still holds in Canada.
I love listening to their insights about how governments work and politics. But good god damn once these aristocrats open their mouths about social issues it's like watching Oprah Winfrey trying to operate a self checkout machine.
I’m a regular listener from Canada. Polievre breaks the mould of “centrist “ Canadian politician. He’s very populist. He seems to be willing to say anything and consort with dubious people to attain power. This is new in Canadian politics. It’s as simple as this….people want a change. Unfortunately the average voter is sufficiently stupid to not consider whether the change will be for good or ill.😮
Your comment "average voter is sufficiently stupid" sounds like something trudeau would say/think and suggests disrespect/disconnection with what you describe as the average voter. People typically vote on issues that most affect them personally, and this is usually the economy and economic outlook. If a politician is focusing on issues that dont address this and instead focus on culture war related issues, expect to get voted out.
I think the vaccines were an amazing work of medical science which likely saved many lives of clinically vulnerable people. I even volunteered in administering them. But still, it's astonishing to me that Canada so casually abandoned people's medical autonomy. And with no evidence that it would help reduce the spread. Then to invoke national emergency powers and freeze the bank accounts of those who protested! That's such an egregious case of government overreach. I'm dumbfounded that so many people on the supposedly liberal left don't see a problem with that. Or even know about it.
@@vincentprice4076 I think the vaccines were a marvel of medical science. I even volunteered to help administer them. But there was never any evidence that they reduced contagion. The mandates were a scientifically baseless infringement of people’s bodily autonomy. And the abuse of emergency powers to quash protest through freezing people’s bank accounts has seen since been ruled unlawful by Canada’s own courts.
@@vincentprice4076 I think the “subcutaneous prophylactic interventions” were a marvel of medical science. I even volunteered to help administer them. But there was never any evidence that they substantially reduced contagion. Mandates were a scientifically baseless infringement on people’s bodily autonomy.
I'm not a fan of Trudeau but I've lived in Canada since 1987 and he's hands down the best PM the country has had over those years. The competition is pretty weak though, Brian Mulroney, Kim Campbell, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin and the worst of the lot Stephen Harper... If Trudeau loses he'll be replaced by somebody a lot worse, that much is pretty well guaranteed. The Canadian Conservatives are completely mad, they aren't fit to run a country. Trudeau is certainly flawed but he's still a lot better than the competition. I like Jagmeet Singh, I like him a lot actually.. but I can't see him getting in (unfortunately).
^^THIS^^ The thought of another Conservative Prime Minister is horrifying… to put women’s reproductive rights back on the table for debate, should be enough to stop them… but it won’t. Both parties are slaves to their BIG corporation donors… the only one that doesn’t seem to be, is Singh… I love his policies, his passion and his compassion… I just wish other people would stop thinking of Canada as a 2 party system. We might actually then see some REAL change, here!
Thank you for this good analysis from the ten thousand foot view of the current political situation here in Canada. There are some concerning recent trends however that are gaining a foothold here and mirroring similar trends elsewhere. Civility in public discourse is at an all time low, particularly in the Commons, the trucker protest in Ottawa in 2022 rattled the fabric of our civil society in ways that not even the FLQ and separatist movements of the 70’s and 80’s did. A different sort of populism is drifting north of the US border unlike any we have known in the past fifty years or so. Love your podcast and look forward to each new edition, you both would make great Canadians! :)
The Canadian Conservatives have latched onto US populism (anti-trans, no vax); the Canadian Liberals are corporatist - whatever corporations want they allow. The things Canadians are most angry about are not federal responsibilities (healthcare and housing).
You might want to consider how Trudeau treated the Canadian Truckers during the pandemic - freezing their bank accounts etc. Jordan Peterson certainly has plenty to say about the failures of Justin Trudeau and his unsuitability for the job of PM
Housing and immigration are way worse in Canada now than they were when Trudeau came in. He did the total opposite of what he ran on. He’s lost all credibility and is arrogant. He still insists he did everything right and that our expectations were the problem. There’s only so much gaslighting people can put up with. Having said that I’m not looking forward to Poilievre and won’t be voting for him either. He will be as bad or worse just in other areas.
This is exactly how I feel! Trudeau is a puppet for BIG Corporations - and has been caught over and over again putting them first. To hear the Conservatives have put abortion rights back on the table, is horrifying; and I can’t align myself with ANY of their policies… I won’t be voting for either. The only alternative is NDP, but it feels like a wasted vote, even though I love their policies 🤷🏻♀️ We really are between a rock and a hard place, here.
Rory, I picked up your book on a re visit to Bosnia. Got me through the flight there and back. Still reading. A good one. Regards to you and Alistair. Jon
Rwanda being legally defined as "safe" is conceptually the same as what we did with every nation that joined the EU. Looking at some of the those in the accession pipeline, Turkey, Serbia as well as others could certainly be considered in the same bracket in terms of safety. Other EU nationals also have equivalent transfer systems with north african nations such as Italy.
I think Rorys analysis of Trudeau is fairly shallow. The problem many Canadians experience is that the population of the country has increased by 33% in 20 years and the investment in social services hasn't kept pace.
Not watched this yet, just read the title and had to comment! They are bored WITH him, not bored OF him! Please Rory, you are an intelligent person, and Alistair was a journalist! How can you get this wrong
Hi, great episode. I'm Canadian, so I can pinpoint when Trudeau lost me as a voter, and it happened during Covid. The level of hate is a bit much outside of that. So I guess it was just bad luck, similar to Bennet (depression, etc). We are also sick of the focus on external issues that are more Yankee issues, too. 😑 He also rarely shifts blame to others, which is noble but too sacrifical, especially when they bully his family, too. I would hate for Canada to become like Americas culture war, even for Polivere. The bleeding hearts can go ahead and bleed (faux protestors). Thank you, i subscribed.
Sunak and the Tories don't seem to know how to achieve things in practical terms, if that's what they really intend. I think it's because they don't have the knowledge and skills themselves and no longer (if they ever did) listen to their civil servants. They are certainly ignorant and inhumane. Also if a government cuts funding over many years of austerity it will produce problems that are difficult and expensive to solve effectively.
We are not "bored" of him, what a stupid thing to say. We are fed up because no one can afford to live here anymore. He has allowed companies to gouge consumers and he has done nothing to help Canadians afford homes. That is why we are fed up with him. Jfc, get a clue. Downvoting this garbage.
From time to time I give myself an ‘injection’ of ‘The Rest is……’ in the vain hope that the discussions between Rory and Alastair offer wise principles and hope in the future but the absence of a broad approach in favour of irritating political and bureaucratic ifs and buts offer me no enlightenment.
Prior to the pandemic the reels on my Facebook feed took a radical rightward turn. Shockingly, the most progressive Prime Minister in Canadian history was the focus of attacks from Australian, uAmerican, and British media outlets, in which he was called both a fascist and a communist. He had marched in Pride Parades, had the audacity to call himself a feminist, created a climate change plan with serious consequences for our oil and gas industry, and invited Indigenous people to the negotiating table with real world consequences for the all powerful mining sector. In short, his policies offended the powerful and cost them money. When Covid, that communist/fascist narrative became amplified by Fox News, Joe Rogan, talk radio, cable news, and other US media outlets. Trudeau had followed expert advice, something they were against, resulting in 3xs the number of Americans dying per capita from Covid than Canadians. This was the moment when the ugly populism we had seen everywhere in the world finally arrived in Canada. All the distortions and false accusations I first saw on my Facebook feed are now repeated by Canadians. Sure, Trudeau has made missteps in his 8 1/2 years in power. But he is the most hated person in Canada because propaganda works, not because we have inflation (which came down faster than any other leading nation), too few medical staff (because “austerity” cutback in the 80’s and 90s stupidly closed the teaching hospitals), and a distorted housing market like most other advanced nations (although the Canadian situation is far worse than most because housing prices didn’t crash during the 2008 financial crisis snd just kept rising). Many of the comments on here from Canadians reflect this new, hateful populism.
I enjoy listening to these discussions however I really do think that both you are completely out of touch with general sentiment : Immigration - The volumes are not sustainable. At these levels it's difficult to integrate, impacts services etc. Welfare reform - We see it every day (my wife is front line local government) where significant minorities abuse the system. Tide is turning on WOKE - Nonsense the average person is sick of this madness. Just because the Guardian publish a pole and the BBC question time audience react with groan - these are hardly unbiased institutions.... Anyways I do enjoy listening and getting a different perspective and on many topics agreeing with your positions....
I think people are getting sick of both the “woke” and the “anti-woke” stuff. They want a sensible discussion about complex social issues. Rather than culture-war grandstanding. For example: Just look at how much cool-headed and compassionate reason the Cass report has brought to a previously toxic debate.
@@andybrice2711 depends what you would consider “anti-woke”. I think people are far more fed up with woke than anti woke. Anti woke is simply the rejection of woke. The cass review has definitely tipped the scales, in terms of legitimising debate but it’s absurd that up until that point, a lot of people, particularly in the media and most centrists, felt it wasn’t something that should be challenged or discussed. To see politicians do a complete 180 (particularly on the Labour front bench), and pretend as though they were concerned all along is a disgrace. The public are rightly outraged. The cass review was quite big news, and I find it striking that neither Rory or Alistair have discussed it at all. That’s intentional, and clearly shows they feel too uncomfortable to bring it up. I’d also add, Green MSP’s are outraged that NHS Scotland has now also (in light of cass) decided to stop prescribing puberty blockers, and are continuing to spread misinformation about Cass’s report. So much so that the SNP have had to end their coalition with them. A year ago, that position wouldn’t have been considered extreme. A year ago, challenging Cass’s findings would have been considered waging a culture war or “anti woke”.
@@jamesm5809 I certainly think that most people do want to see push-back against the excesses of the progressive left. But I also think people don't want to see right-wing politicians using similar culture-war tactics of stirring up outrage and trying to silence, demonize, or humiliate their political opponents. I doubt there's much appetite for those Trump-like tactics in Britain. Like I cringe every time Rishi Sunak scoffs something like _"At least I can say what a woman is!"_ Because he's usually just doing it to distract from an argument he's going to lose.
Don’t research why he had to pay a huge settlement to a student he taught before he entered politics. 😉 The man is all style, and lets just say no restraint…
Thank you for the children's book, I've just pre-ordered it for my 7 year old Alastair. A question if I may. In the same vein towards a child audience, who would you both recommend a person from history for child to be inspired by? Politics or not.
I enjoy your podcast - intelligent analysis and discussion with interesting guests, no shouting or name calling, However, I was surprised that in your discussion of Trudeau, you did not mention Aylan Kurdi, the child who drowned while escaping Syria. His aunt lives in Canada and had applied to the Harper government to bring her relatives here, but they dithered, if I recall, and then proposed to only admit a limited number of Syrian refugees. Trudeau responded by pledging to bring in a very large number of refugees, and I believe this responded to what many Canadians wanted to see happen. It has been a while, I guess, but I still vividly remember that picture of Aylan on the beach.
I'm so glad you are bringing Anthony Scaramouchi into the podcast on a more regular basis. I've been a fan since he left the White House. He's smart and funny and has a great turn of phrase. Looking forward to his contributions. Americans are totally batshit if they want Tucker Carlson as president!
Right now, not content with a strong lead in polls, opposition leader Poillivre is preoccupied with making inroads with supporters of the People’s Party of Canada, a rump of right wing radicals led by Maxime Bernier, a former Conservative foreign minister who felt cheated by the outcome of the CPC leadership contest 2 leaders ago. The UK has had 5 PM’s since Brexit - the same year Trudeau clobbered Harper. He began that campaign in 3rd place 20 points behind. Trudeau has won 2 elections since then and is on his 5th Conservative Party leader. The next Canadian federal election is nearly 18 months away. When more Canadians realize that Poillivre is a professional politician with a nasty and callow manner, masquerading as a Trump-lite puppet, they will realize his populist message has no real substance. Poillivre trails with women by a wider margin than Trump does. Trudeau will win a 4th election with help from strong allies like Mark Carney.
Another important issue is improve acceptance of hosts of immigrants is to control the impact on local culture and traditions. If immigrants don’t like to integrate then they should be better off staying where they are.
Not true at all. Without the influence of immigrant culture, the UK would still have shit food. All the cuisine that's now almost UK classics comes from immigration. Curries? Kebabs? I don't know about you, but I think that's much preferable to beans on toast or some bs.
As an immigrant myself of over 18 years in Canada, educated in to the UK with a post graduate degree, fluent in English and working in mainstream media, living outside of the immigrant conclaves, I still get the feeling of an outsider when going out for a walk in my neighborhood. It also comes down to the insularity of the host culture, which is a challenge in itself. My conversations with fellow colleagues are only interesting to them if they are about hockey, football and Hollywood, the moment Singapore, travels to Turkey or cricket comes into the conversation, one only hear crickets. Something to think about why Canadians gravitate to other Canadians when living as expats in Malaysia or Thailand, and why even call them expats when they are immigrants living in their silos abroad? perhaps expats ring better?
I’ve only popped into this podcast a couple of times. For what it’s worth, it seems a very white middle class liberal middle of the British political class sort of chat. I just watched Roy on Cosmic Sceptic and he seemed much more authentic, with a much broader perspective and deeply culturally Conservative. Im sort of befuddled as to why these two talking is such a popular podcast …in good faith am I missing anything? If I followed longer would I hear more profound discussions and more intellectually challenging arguments? .
They do have some fascinating and unique insights into certain areas of politics and history. But yes, they also seem trapped in a bubble of their own making, where they're just completely oblivious to complex issues which large swathes of the population deeply care about. Like when Alistair's response to the Scottish hate bill was basically just _"I don't see what all the fuss is about. Hate is bad."_ rather than any deeper enquiry into the arguments for and against, and the perennial problem of the limits of free speech.
@@andybrice2711 Thank you Andy. Your comment makes a lot of sense. I suspect their more profound insights come in areas where they are really knowledgeable and have had a long history with the subject. Perhaps Alastair with the British popular press (perhaps a little dated as he withdraws into podcasting and book writing. And Rory with insights into Conservatives perspectives (if and when he speaks on these). Also imagine it would be hard to maintain the upbeat relationship they have without each of them biting their lips from time to time. This allows them to present more collegiate atmosphere, which, I think quite a few folk would prefer to see and hear…So, my eyes are opened somewhat to their popularity.
Things wrong with Canada that Canadians are unhappy about: Increased immigration for students (which has a pipeline through to citizenship) tenfold causing increasing costs and exacerbating a lack of affordability. Housing unaffordability, infrastructure that is unable to keep up, out of control grocery corporations price gouging, and flat wages not keeping up with the cost of living. He's likely going to lose because people are struggling to live here. The places that they can live have no jobs. He's also woke for woke's sake as Rory pointed at. Also Canadians are waiting years for doctors, for after school care for young kids, etc etc. Things he could have done to fix it, increase co-op housing, hold the grocery store gouging accountable by breaking up the few big corps owning everything.
Education, health care, and housing are all provincial responsibilities. Yet the feds just increased health care funding to the provinces by billions while their attempts to help municipalities build more housing is protested by the provinces. Can’t won. The introduction of $10 a day daycare is a huge win for families
Most of the things you mentioned are Provisional responsibilities. The one thing I ABSOLUTELY agree with are the monopolies we have here! Grocery stores, telephone companies, airlines, etc., Canadians are being played…! But. Look at what happened when the NDP called a hearing, and it was FINALLY heard… Many Conservatives and Liberals were found to have a conflict of interest, due to company shares and MASSIVE campaign contributions from them!! I wouldn’t be surprised if it were the same for the gas companies, airlines and internet corps, either. Politics in Canada stinks! We need to take the money out of politics… that way, we would actually know that these politicians are doing their jobs for the people, not their pockets!
so on Sunak and the depression thing. I find it hard to describe depression to people who don't have it. You struggle to get out of bed and brush your teeth. Let alone get a doctor's appointment, let alone going to the appointment. let alone TELLING the doctor you might have depression. Full well knowing if you say the wrong thing, they WILL hospitalize you. Everyone that has been through it, these points are obvious. to everyone else, they will just say you're pretending, or it's not that deep.
you might start to realise that this isn't the podcast for you. Both Rory and Alistair don't scrutinise people like Trudeau. Anyone on the right of Trudeau is a Populist in their eyes.
I would say also that Trudeau was the opposite to his father in that whereas his father proned national unity and breaking down the divisions and individual rights over group rights Justin plays the group identity political card in a very synical vote getting way for all it's worth and frankly it has deepend division in this already too divided country.
The obvious bit, that everybody seems to be glossing over, is that THE TOTAL that Rwanda is going to accept, is less than cross the channel in a week. Instead of banning immigrants from working, we should be taking advantage of the skills and work ethic that they bring. Then we would avoid all the negative 'lazy sponging illegal immigrants' tosh.
If you want coverage of US politics, check out the 538 podcast; they’re pollsters and the coverage is even-handed and detailed. Don’t bother with this Friday shite they’re putting out with the two Bran-flakes.
I really like you two, but I must say every times you guys mention some one is a "pretty right wing populist guy", I really wish you expand a little more, because from what I hear from the "right wing populist guys" they are usually more convincing, way more than woke or leftwing politician. For example I would like to know where did they get wrong exactly. I am not saying therefore they are right about things, but most of the debate I listen to, the "left winger" sounds more like a lunatics while the "populist guy" was usually trying stay on the topic.
I completely agree. It's so reductive to just brand people as populists. Rory and Alistair would be far better off breaking down in detail why this or that person is wrong on a particularly issue. Calling someone a populist isn't an argument, its lazy a way of cutting people or topics out of debate.
Can I just add something about employment. For example, in education the lecturers are worked to the bone, Victorian style. People leave and they are not replaced, the responsibilities are divided between the employees left. When you complain they ask you to do a free! Resilience course when your issue is the work load and taking work home and not having enough time to socialize or take care of yourself and you eventually break.
I really have been enjoying this show, you two are the last people I thought who would collaborate on something like this, with that said how do feel about agreeing with Ian Hislop, eh Alastair ?
It's genuinely heartbreaking that so many of us are struggling financially - whilst we have Rishi telling us this is what we want/need. At first is was frustrating, now its just sad.
I rarely disagree with you two but the idea that the occupied parts of Ukraine are now assimilated into Russiaand can't be liberated is not bourne out by the facts. Both areas are subject to a brutal occupation. I think the number of "resistance" actions are some of the indicators of this. Otherwise of course, thank you again for an incredibly interesting podcast.
RE "European" attitudes to immigration vs UK. (1): Numbers. The numbers in Spain, Italy & France are much higher than UK numbers. This matters - it's very visible in southern Italy & much of urban France. In rural places, away from the sea, it's often much less of an issue but like most rural issues this is under-reported. (2), with the exception of France, much of Europe didn't colonize Africa or Asia, so there is an argument that places like Hungary, Austria, Denmark are being asked to underwrite the histories of other countries, without having had the century long experience of these cultures. In most places (including the UK), this issue is dominated by the reporting of the issue. The people in the UK who think you need to be a polyglot and use a passport in London have counterparts in France who think the same of Paris. This partial reporting is what makes immigration (& Brexit) in place not really impacted by immigration (& benefitting from EU membership).
I suspect Sunak either hasn’t a f*****g clue about mental health issues, or simply doesn’t care (or maybe even both). Alistair will know about it and its impact, as I do myself. I’ve had several periods of depression (on top of ME/CFS) in my 69 year life. I’ve managed to hold down two careers, one in teaching, but thankfully was able financially to retire at 56. Mental ill health is increasing and it isn’t a trivial matter for sufferers. Sunak effectively saying they’re malingerers is just awful - the bitter and twisted death throes of almost the worst PM we’ve ever had. I just hope voters will make the Tories pay next week, and at the next general election.
Great podcast! I would like to see an occasional collab with the American podcast, I like hearing an American perspective. This podcast is quickly becoming a news network, I'm looking forward to The Rest is Politics Asia.
Does the constant reference to illegal immigration lead many to think that claiming asylum is illegal? One rarely hears reference to the legality of claiming asylum.
Why are people less concerned about Immigration? Maybe something to do with the economy tanking and the cost of living soaring? Peoples opinion on Immigration isn't changing, it's the fact that people are facing far more immediate problems that take priority. Also people aren't turning on the "anti woke", politicians can't get support for it because they've completely failed to ever actually act on it, it's gotten so bad that people don't even care about being called a literal Nazi anymore and why ignoring that shift is a bad idea should be pretty self explanitory.
Import more immigrants and all of a sudden immigration becomes more popular. Is this maybe because the british public actually aren't in favour of immigration, but the immigrants (a growing population) do like immigration? Unless they specifically exclude immigrants from these polls.
Very accurate. Justin has overspent is political "best before date". I didn't know who's advising the PM but they are not serving his interest or the Canadian interest.
I believe you are correct in the breadth of the Canadian political system. Therefore it is easy for Canadians to switch from one party in Government to the other without the worry of major course corrections. When we get tired of a politician/party we give the other guy a crack at it .
Huge respect for Rory but I cannot take him seriously with that horrendously dyed black hair. Jesus man!. Such shallow judgement probably comes just because i am an old fart. (69yrs)
Ukraine should be told by the west to give up its current losses and negotiate a settlement. Ukraine what left of it should be brought under the nato nuclear umbrella and Putin should be told that if he makes any further moves on nato countries its all over for Russia.
