The Cataphract Completes Byzantines | AoE2 

It's a top 3 between the Byz, the Goths and the Teutons lol

so true lol

Byz, Brits, and Persians for me lol

Falso. Siempre jugué civilización aleatoria... Mi favorita es los Godos. Y tampoco lo he pickeado siquiera 10 veces en toda mi vida de juego

Was my best civ when i was a child and play AOC. Now is mayans and portugueses

Nice 😂

True and even fully upgraded Halbs start falling in 2 hits once numbers increase->trample damage comes into play.

Yes, the number of civs that have halberdiers and the last inf amor upgrade is only like a third of the civs out there. Everyone else trying to go for pikemen not only gets screwed with only 6 bonus dmg, but also their pikes getting 2-shot because they only have 55hp instead of the halbs 60. Only Gurjara camels can compete against catas btw because of their additional bonus dmg and unique tech melee armor of +4, even Hindustani and Saracen camels trade poorly against catas. Oh, and all theye civs lack halberdiers which, as much as they suck vs mass cata can still overwhelm and outgrind them and are thus the best trash counter there is against them.

Still, if you use a staggered formation, halbs still counters Cataphracts cost effectively.

@@benedictjajo How much are we talking about? Last time I checked, Elite Catas can quite easily kill three times their number in halbs and have a good number of survivors though you'll usually want like a 2:1 ratio to lose next to no catas. Also if you just add elite skirms to buffer your cata numbers, it gives a much more realistic scenario than one player just having pure catas.

@@couchpotatoe91 Actually 10 Cataphracts can take out 40 fully upgraded Halberdiers with about 20% HP left.

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Urumi fits the Dravidians perfectly. Like the lid on a trashcan.

cav archers is the answer. Byzantines don't have an answer for that. Cheap skirms aren't as mobile as cav archers.

Lol catas are not op, they are easy peasy for paladins and archer civs.

@@osmanyurtseven7609 Cataphracts shouldn't be operating alone. They should be fighting along with plenty of skirmishers and/or halberdiers, camels, paladins for support.

@@osmanyurtseven7609 not for Paladins. In larger groups (15+) Cata's trade cost effectively due to trample damage.

@@skipper472 you may get beautiful combinations in other civs also. Some counters with some gold units combo, it is just a classic combo for age. Saying overpowered to catas really is cruel i think.

I wouldnt say is that simple. It depend on a period. You allude to Theme system of district that Romans used to defend their land from Arab raids from VII to XI. Those typical farmers served in Themes but as a temporary mainline infantry. They are rather the reflection of cheaper halbs and skirms. They weren't professionals in contrast to the cataphract who were selected and trained from much richer landlords from Anatolia and they were placed near capital in reserves. They were very expensive to maintain so their suit the more proffesional army. The Eastern Roman Empire lasted so long that we can point few moments in their history when they had that type power unit: 1. Justinian/ reconquests - they had a core of heavy cav, they at first equipped with bow and arrow weaken the enemy (adoption of Hunnic and Eastern style of warfare), forcing him to move and then with heavy charge crushed their lines. 2. Byantine Reconquista - as Empire had more money in period from early X centuary to XI - Romans started to retake much of their lands from Arabs and Bulgars. The areas they fought force them to create the Cataphract formation (they finally started to fight more often on open grounds of Syria, Anatolia and north Bulgaria) . Heavy armor cavalary that could deal a massive charge, great vs infantry static lines. This units were used mainly by Phokas, John and Bazyl II. The most similar to AoE2 cataphract. 3. Kommenos dynasty - after the empire regain some stability after Manzikiert, rulers like Alexios, John and Manuel saw on themself how effective the Norman/Western knight style warfare is. They knew that correctly used heavy cav charges when got close can destroy any type of army. Romans started to adopt this style with partial success but never in massive numbers. PS: "Byzantiner Army" - late Roman army or eastern Roman army sound better and it's more correct. They werent miserious Greeks, they were just Romans.

I will just add that Byzatine tech tree perfectly reflects the Roman army from begging to the end. Cheaper halbs as Limitanei formation and with cheaper skirms are overall Theme system formation made by local levies. Cheaper camels represent the beduin tribes that fought during Justinian era. Hussars and heavy cav archers are Hunnic, Turkish, Cuman mercenaries and settlers who fought for Empire in exchange to place to live. Paladins are Western mercenaries knights from XI to XIII. Handcannons and bombards are Italian support units in the last days of Empire. Romans in that time weren't a great offensive power but they were great in adopting to enemy tactics and used them for their advantages and that's why they hold for so long. Overall i would say this civ is one of the best made in entire game.

You cant mass hc before imp

Mobility is much less for arbs/hc.

Cataphracts force a stronger reaction from your opponent than just a bunch of skirms and siege.

a)Mobility b) UUs that beat Arbs c) pop efficiency.

@@allaboutgames2796 You can easily outmass cataphracts even if you start making HC in imp because you like have 10 ranges for making skirmisher already.

Good cav can trade good vs cata

Cataphracts have no hard counters. You can only trade reasonably effectively against them.

Heavy calvary pretty much hard counters cataphracts. Their raw stats vs. paladins, for example, are no match. Of all their bonuses, only their trample damage comes into play, and against high hp units, it is just not enough. But as Hera points out in this video, Catas are not meant to be played alone. You mix your cheap halbs in with your Catas and boom, the enemies counter is nullified.

No need to counter it when it costs ridiculous amounts of resources to update. If Byzantine player wastes that much resources to make it, you should be well ahead already.

HCA with no bloodlines isn't great

@@mundolincurve7577 Well, they're no Frank HCA, but at least they have Thumb Ring, Bracer, and Ring Archer Armor

Byzantines already have a very strong eco bonus, namely saving 25% on all counter units. Cata is supposed to be hard to get to as it has no clear weaknesses. If you make them cheaper/faster to train they also need reduced HP and 0 PA.

@@daarom3472 On the contrary Cata does have a clear weakness in heavy calvary. Also, while the discount is a good indirect eco bonus, try comparing it to other civs. Incas for example have a similar indirect eco bonus in reduced food cost across the board, not just trash units. They then have two further eco bonuses in reduced stone costs and needing to make fewer houses. Byzantines have two other indirect eco "bonuses" as well, in cheaper Imperial Age and a full eco tech tree. However, the full eco tech tree rarely has a chance to pay off in 1v1 games. Discounting eco techs in Imp would synergize really well with the cheap Imp letting Byzantine players get the techs early enough for them to pay off and actually help more often in 1v1s. I admit I could be wrong and just need to "git gud". It just feels to me like a slight buff of some kind that does NOT increase the post-imp power cap of the civ could make Cata play more common and let Byzantines compete more easily with the top tier civs without being oppressive to lower tier civs.

@@ycampbell7672 heavy cavalry is not a clear weakness for cata's. In decent numbers they trade evenly with Paladin. Another discount is the free LOS techs, thats 3-4 vils up from TC time and also some vils saved by having it earlier. Incas are a completely different civ, and I agree they have stronger eco bonuses. Just saying "don't underestimate discounts".

@daarom3472 Fudge, blanked out on the los one.🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ Still, I maintain that heavy calve hard counters cata. My personal experience aside, every video I've seen matching up cata vs pallie, leities, konnik, boyar etc, both with total resources and with equal resources, catas get absolutely wrecked. Paladins have the additional bonus of being much easier to mass. For reference: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IQ3Mg9vT_bw.htmlsi=m9-7CydyNYgUH1P7 Even with equal numbers: ru-vid.com-mkSX-EVtJw?si=aLiUG2RadR2Cy_WV I also want to reiterate that I don't think Byzantines should get any kind of bonus that makes them stronger post-imperial. I just think getting there should be a little smoother.

@@ycampbell7672 the 2 links you showed dont show the Cara's being wrecked. They show a quite even fight that the Paladin narrowly win. Now if both sides throw in halbs as part of their army the outcome is very one sided.. Agree Paladin are easier to mass though. I do agree units like Boyar and Leitis (and Monaspa) doninate cata's, but these are pretty broken units by themselves when massed (they also dominate Paladin).

Hera of the law ... SotL goes MUCH more in depth about the cataphract's advantages an disadvantages ...

For cataphracts to actually become a powerhouse, it requires nearly twice the amount of paladin upgrade, not including the various cavalry upgrades required. You can train 50 hand cannoneer for the price of logistica + elite cataphract alone... and this is with creating 0 cataphracts afterwards. It feels quite ridiculous to invest in it unless you face some civ like goth or Japanese who spam billions of halberdiers.

@@skipper472 even so japanese halbs do pretty decent against cataphracts