One thing that makes Catford's stations even more confusing is that Catford Station's platforms are on a bridge and Catford Bridge's platforms are on the ground
🤣 because maybe Catford station which is older uses the bridge which I guess was built to carry the track for Catford. hence the bridges name Catford bridge, and the newer station, Catford bridge was built next to the bridge which carried the track for the Catford station.🤣confusing as hell
@@alonso071 Does anybody ever travel to Catford? I used to live next door in Forest Hill, and never went there, just went through it. The throbbing metropolis of Lewisham was much more attractive, although that's not the right word. Do they still have a dog racing track? And is there cat racing in Dogford yet?
@@SkepticalSteve01 I visited around there in the summer of 2021 so I made use of those stations quite a lot. It was very confusing. Another tough part was the fact that the touch out tills were not so easy to see. On two separate occasions my friend had to remind me to touch out.
Now now... the Department of Redundancy Department does some very valuable work, and some very valuable work is done by the Department of Redundancy Department.
You're completely wrong about intercity railways! It was the Low Muttering and Fangles! How dare you call yourself a Historian!!!!! :p Loving the new video, Mr. Hazzard!
@@mirzaahmed6589 As Vasili says Passenger were not part of the Stockton and Darlington Railway. The service was for coal wagons only. Passenger transport was only include to stop people walking down the line and getting in the way of the trains. What they got was a converted horse drawn stagecoach which had rims fitted to the inside of the wheels just like those on the wagons and engine.
No, the L&F was not the first inter-city line. For although Fangles University predated the L&M, the first Bishop of Low Muttering was not enthroned until 1867.
@@rocketscience4516 I understand the idea was thought of when the centre was built, but they decided to put a cat up instead. Probably to go with the urban ledgend that wilds Cat used to be in the area. There were mixed feelings about that cat even until this day.
If you ever used to go to Catford dog track, it was much more convenient to use Catford Bridge Station because it was about 3 feet closer than Catford Station. My mate Kevin recons that Catford Bridge Station was built solely to serve Catford dogs!
NO NO NO! The first intercity service was between Walking on the Thames and Little Wanking. according to my great-grandpa. Never mind the fact that Grampy ended his days in the Botching Mews Home for the Chronically Befuddled.
I know it's a bit outside the remit of your London-centric channel, and probably not enough of a story to base even a short video on, but seeing "Tunbridge" marked on several of the old maps in this episode reminded me of how both Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells got their modern spellings thanks to the advent of the railways... Until around the 1930s (I think - it's been a while since I heard this tale, but it's certainly a lot later than you'd think), the names of Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells were both spelled with the "O" and the "U" being more or less interchangeable; Tunbridge Wells had been named such because a chalybeate spring had been discovered there in 1606 and a town had grown up around it, serving the tourist trade of well-to-do people coming to sample the waters for their healing properties and - since there was no town historically on the site of the spring itself before its discovery - it had simply become known as "the wells near Tunbridge" which was the nearest existing town to the location. When the main South Eastern railway line was first laid through Tonbridge, it was generally spelled "Tunbridge" - with the town being famous for its peculiar style of wooden-mosaic trinkets known as Tunbridgeware (honestly, it was a big thing in the late 19th century... ask a local antiques dealer if you don't believe me). Due to the connection with the mainline town, the Tunbridge Wells station on the subsequent Tonbridge-to-Hastings branch line was also spelled with a "U" because, well, why wouldn't it be...? However, relatively few passengers were interested in visiting the place where the wooden doodads were created (as nice as they might be to look at, no-one actually wanted to see them being made) and were instead traveling to take the waters at the Wells. This led to some confusion when, seeing the platform signage which read "Tunbridge" out of the window (which could just as easily have said "Tunbridge Wells" if your view from the carriage window happened to cut off the end of the sign), many spa patrons got off at the wrong stop. Since at the time the prestigious spa-town of Tunbridge Wells was a more popular destination than plain old "Tunbridge", the decision was made to change the latter's spelling to the lesser-used "O" while the place everyone actually wanted to visit would keep the more-familiar "U". And thus, the historical medieval town of Tunbridge became the modern town of Tonbridge, thanks to entitled rail passengers looking for a trip to the spa who couldn't be bothered to read to the end of the platform signs. Of course, this would all be academic anyway if they'd used the Royal epithet in Tunbridge Wells' station name, but there you go. Incidentally, I know this little tidbit because I live in Tunbridge Wells, and I can attest that the "healing waters" taste unpleasantly irony, and smell terrible.
Tunbridge Wells had 2 stations but different names, Tunbridge Wells Central and Tunbridge Wells West, The West station was bigger and had engine sheds and works, much better for trainspotting and closer to the Chalybeate Spa on the Pantiles, where Tommy Steele starred in the movie Half-a-Sixpence. Tunbridge Wells is also the home to Subbuteo the tabletop soccer game which was actually invented in Langton Green a mile or two west. I was born in Royal Tunbridge Wells but grew up in Groombridge which is just across the Sussex border, my secondary schooling was at the Grammar school in East Grinstead and I went and returned daily by steam train, it was a treat then and a fond memory now.
The same great philosopher who once said: "Relax. Don't do it!" And: "I'll protect you from the hooded claw; keep the vampires from your door." Is that the fellow? The gestalt entity known as 'Frankie'? Ooh, no, missus. Suit yourselves. Sorry, wrong Frankie.
After the Bullhouse Bridge disaster in which 24 people died when a locomotive crank axle broke, spilling carriages down an embankment, Watkin said words to the effect that he'd rather a Bullhouse' every month than be forced to fit vacuum brakes. "Intransigent" hardly does Sir Edward justice.
"The stage was set for one of the stupidest rivalries in British railway history". And that's quite a statement! (PS: The main reason I was drawn to this video is that Catford is where Spike Milligan lived before he got famous and he wrote about it in his WWII autobiographical books.)
I totally agree that most graffiti looks hideous, but murals done by proper artists can really brighten up an area, Such as the 'Votes for women' mural on the side of the Lord Morpeth pub on Old Ford Street and the 'Very cute dog' on a carbuncle block of flats at the East India Dock Road/Chrisp Street junction, The cretins who spray '10 foot crew' on all bridges from the midlands down to Charing Cross Station and beyond definitely need their hands chopped off though, Bring back hanging for taggers!
Once tried, for a laugh, travelling from Sudbury Hill (Harrow) to Sudbury Hill by rail. It took 47 minutes - the stations are about 100 metres apart - I once ran that in 11.8 seconds!
You've reminded me that I once tried, for a laugh, driving round the M25 to see in the New Year. All I learned from it was that I really should have looked up the word "laugh" in the dictionary first.
@@annother3350 Hahaha, no, the M25 is a circle, a ring road around London about 120 miles (180 km) long. It usually takes the form of a giant slow moving traffic procession but you will find that it's relatively empty and easy to drive around at midnight on New Year's Eve when anyone normal is having fun with friends and relatives. I did it anti-clockwise; I have no idea if it's more fun doing it clockwise. I suppose there would be one way to find out..... 😊🚗🚙🛺🚛
Great video, thank you for the care and time that you put into your videos - and I see you are poised to hit 80,000 subscribers, which I can't image is where you expected to be by the end of the year back in mid-July.
Interestingly the suburb of Catford was named after Catford Bridge, not the other way round. If you look at old, pre railway, maps what we now call Catford was called Rushey Green. Nearby was a bridge over the Ravensbourne called the Catford (or Catsford) Bridge. CB station was named after the bridge and poor old Rushey Green was demoted from being a village name and ended up as just a bit of the A21
Lived in Catford for 5 years, infact lived all along this line - St Johns (Lewisham), Ladywell and then Catford. Put out to grass in Kent now. Miss it a lot!
I lived there for over 3 years and miss it too. Now in Somerset and really miss the city and would love the chance to jump on a train and be in Kentish Town in 30 minutes.
You have described, why two stations are so close, once you understand the history, you see the sense. Makes sense too why you can't but a ticket from one to the other since both stations serve the one area it's a bit like buying a ticket from here to here. I've been working at Catford Bridge all week, in the first time in all the years working there I noticed today the old ticket office from the outside which you show.
But you can use oyster from here to here. It's the maximum fare. I wonder if Geoff's video showed how much it cost from Catford Bridge to Catford. I feel like it did when I watched it ages ago
@@PianoKwanMan I think it charged him £2.10. I can see why the ticket machine wouldn't sell a ticket from 'here to here' and the Oyster charges using zonal fares. But, why would anyone want to travel by train from Catford to Catford Bridge anyway?
Stories like this is very much the reason for my complicated relationship with Britain (as an anglophile). Much like the case when connecting London, Chatham, and Dover, the idea is lovely but the implementation is absolutely bonkers.
Team Forbes! The LCDR forever!! The full title after 1899 was 'The South Eastern and Chatham Managing Committees'. They certainly were still two seperate Railways until the Big Four Grouping of 1923. Yes there was a little cost saving, the two loco works were amalgamated at the SER Ashford Locomotive Works, and Chatham Central (anything but) was closed , but other than that life went on as normal. This is a very complex subject Mr Hazard, one that I would like very much to sit down and share with you. Thanks for showing possibly the finest class of 2-4-0 ever built (the Martley Europa (Kirtley C class)).
Another positive of the amalgamation was that it gave rise to one of the most attractive locomotive liveries in Britain. It's incredible that over a century and a Beeching later, apart from the trimming of a few odd branches, the 2 systems still coexist, and are still broadly separate from each other!
Brilliant video as ever, Jago- although when I saw the title I thought it was going to be about the 1966 shootout between the Kray and Richardson gangs at Mr Smith’s Catford nightclub! Glad it wasn’t as it was great to learn about these two stations, they’ve always puzzled me.
Of course there are two stations at Catford, that should be a minimum requirement. I would have been terribly disappointed if there were only one. 00:08
Fascinating as ever Jago. This rivalry is up there with other great rail rivalries: District v Metropolitan, LNER (East Coast) v L&NW (West Coast), Midland Mainline v GCR - though GCR no longer exist, this last rivalry ended decades ago!
At first glance, I thought the sign at 7:03 said "towards Downham and Hitler Green", and I think it says something about greater London's place names that my initial thought was "that's a mighty strange name for a neighborhood" and not "no, that's impossible, read it again."
I started my working life just down the rail at New Beckenham Station. It was gas lit, which I think explains why I'm short and bald. Those gas lights are hot!
I just want to say how interesting these vids are. I went to George Michael's house and spotted the disused station at Highate and thought how spooky it was. Always a treat to find out about London and its nuances.
I think it is sad that Jago ignores the environmental tragedy these lines caused. Catford was so named because the English Wildcat migrations traditionally crossed the river here, and thus the area became known as the Cats’ Ford which was later shortened to simply Catford in colloquial use which would become official as it made its way onto the maps. Sadly with two railways trying to keep schedules, it was common practice for the trains to simply plow through the herded cars which eventually let to their extinction.
there used to be a similar situation through the Spen valley in West Yorkshire; a line between Huddersfield and Bradford built by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway in 1847, and another parallel line through the same area, between Huddersfield and Leeds built by the London and North Western Railway in 1900 the two lines served all the same places (Northorpe, Heckmondwike, Liversedge, Cleckheaton) and there was no interchange between them at any point beyond Huddersfield nowadays both of those railways are gone for good (the L&NWR line closed in 1953, and the L&YR line closed in 1965), and the L&YR line is now a cycle expressway - plus ça change
You failed to mention that the two stations are on lines going in different directions. Catford Bridge from Charing Cross and Cannon Street to Hayes and Addiscombe and Catford on the loop line from Victoria to Bromley South.
I grew up in Canterbury, but had never realised it was a bit strange there was a Canterbury East and a Canterbury West station. Also, due to a quick bit of research while writing this comment, it would be far more logical to call them Canterbury North and Canterbury South. They are almost identical in longitude.
I grew up in Rushey Green Catford. I lived in Catford for years and I still have relatives that lives there to date. I used to travel a lot via the Catford station, but had no idea that the station was that old. Crazy, right?
It wouldn't have saved much money, if any. Sure it saves cost of running one station, but both are well used stations so it's probably a false economy. This is just a point where the two lines happen to be very close to each other, near where the lines cross to the south. By Beeching's time the line through Catford Bridge had long since stopped being part of a dash to Dover, and was part of the extension to Hayes that's misleadingly called the Mid-Kent Line. At the north it terminated at either Charing Cross/Cannon Street. The Catford station goes to Blackfriars - so passengers to Cannon Street might not be that affected by closing Catford Bridge, but passengers to Charing Cross would be. Conversely, if you close Catford station you have a similar set of complaints, and probably overcrowd the Cannon Street services from Catford Bridge. So why bother? Better to leave it well alone...
How on early do these stations survive when, thanks to Dr Beeching, my hometown - in urban West Yorkshire - does not have a station within a three mile radius? This is why us northerners are bitter and jealous of London’s transport network 😅
We have two stations in Wigan, Wallgate and North Western which are only 63 feet apart. Wallgate was built by the L&Y and NW was oddly enough the LNWR... The two lines actually meet up at Wigan Station Junction just 14 chains south of NW. It's a bit of a complex history really, there was also a Wigan Central station which closed a few decades ago (though Wigan Central is also a very nice ale house located under North Western and their logo is a blue A4 and they won't change it no matter how much I complain to the landlady). Since a timetable change a few years back it is now possible to travel between the two by train relatively easily, one would need to get a Manchester bound train and change at Hindley just over two miles out then head back though it'd be much easier to just get out and walk...
Videos like this make me realise how little I know about London, despite living in it. There are places like Catford and Deptford that I have vaguely heard of, but couldn't place on a map.
I'm on Watkins side. Only reason being that I live 10 minutes away from catford, but also 10 minutes away from the next station: crofton park. So, when I use that line (which, to be honest, I use more than the southeastern) I go to crofton park. So, I never use catford, and always use catford bridge
Catford good to see it again, I used to live in Lewisham, we had a lot of platforms too. How about one on whether the three-turbine-tower seen at 3-mins in actually generates power?
I live in catford. Its not stupid too have 2 stations so close. Its a stroke of luck and genius. We can travel to charing cross or Blackfriars, e& castle or opt for swanley way. The choice is great.
Great video, reminded me of my Dad's love of a night(s) at the Catford Greyhounds, however, Dad and the family migrated to Australia in 1973, which was great for me because this is strangely and coincidentally the time I started getting pocket money hmmm?, long after we left Blighty the Catford Stadium went to the 'Dogs', suddenly closing in 2003. Which reminds me about a totally unrelated but wise pet lover's observation, that is: 'dogs have owners, but cats have staff'. Happy Christmas. .....Drew PS Neither station would have been any good for Dad as he drove to the stadium!
Great video! I love hearing the stories behind strange little anomalies like this. If you fancy making another video like this I'd love to know what's going on with the three separate stations at West Hampstead!
As E.L.Ahrons,put it,back in the 1890's,"The Crawl to the South",in contrast to the,"Race to the North",showing the LC&D,SER,and LB&SC,as rail lines,you loved to hate! The BR,inherited a lot of interesting and not so good rolling stock,locomotives and sundry signaling systems from the Southern,which,to give credit,where its due,did put a degree of regular operation into that hodgepodge of lines! Anyone looking at Wandsworth Road,or Clapham Junction,without a map,would go bonkers! 5 stations,feeding,how many lines,and again,with no scorecard,try to figure it out! Anyway,from a US perspective,maybe Beeching helped,but didn't anticipate the future,and the auto oriented day is now expired,so a definite rethink is in order. Back to the Future! Where do we go from here??? Thank you for your attention,and MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR 😊!.Jago,as always,a thoughtful and generous presentation,thank you! 🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚉🚉🚉🚉🚉🎄🎄🎄🎄🎄👍👍👍👍👍💯💯💯💯💯🚅🚅🚅🚅🚅🚇
I forgot to mention,the LCC trams,and the LT,trams and buses,as they form a veritable spaghetti bowl 🍝 of lines in the area! That would be at least 2 or more videos to untangle that web,but for another day! South London made up for the lack of tube lines,by having a plethora of transit,so they didn't feel left out! By the by,a famous ex-resident of the area was Stan Laurel,of the Lauren and Hardy,comedy team!( Spell check,again),sorry!! 🚊🚊🚊🚊🚊🚋🚋🚋🚋🚋🚇🚇🚇🚇🚇🚎🚎🚎🚎🚎
Good Heavens Jago. Sunday morning and you are already up and about. Great! Gives me the chance to say that I only came across your channel yesterday and already I love it (and have subscribed). I live in London and thought I knew a bit about my City but you have shown me so much more. Thanks.
My old stamping ground hehe Do love that clearing house pic at start showing the spur from Waterloo into what became Waterloo East and the interconnections on the Olympia line and of course the epic engine works at Bricklayers which surely deserves a video to itself the sheer scale of servicing, watering and coaling the engines for London Bridge, Charing X and Cannon St. Back in the 70's just down from Sarson's there used to be a coal and watering shed on the outermost line there still in place but disappeared by the eighties. Author and magical toothman Andy McNab hails from Catford, James Robertson Justice (a firm friend of my late grandfather sharing a love for fly fishing) lived on the border of Catford and Lee, Robinson's Jams had their factory next door to Catford bus garage too with a giant 20 foot high "golly" atop the building which upset very left leaning Lewisham council a treat hehe Oh and Max Wall lived on the border of Catford and Lee and was often seen wandering along Lee Green shops getting cross with people demanding he do the silly walk :P
In a way it's actually quite convenient having 2 stations next to each other, if you trust treat them as one large station with a gap between the platforms. It's far more of a nuisance when the stations are a distance apart (e.g. Canterbury) where you have to choose which one to go to.
Great research and nice cheerful presentation Mr Hazzard back up by interesting visuals. These two squabbling companies show we’ve got a lot of practice at being losers and stupid!
Wow! The "Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Two Tribes" comment, pure class! Christmas Eve as I watch this so Happy Christmas and thank you for sharing your wonderful videos.
Travelling on the railway from Catford Bridge to Catford would involve either A. going (from Catford Bridge) via New Beckenham Junction to Shortlands, changing, and travelling via Bellingham to Catford, or B. in the other direction going to London Bridge and back. In both cases, it takes about ten times longer than walking.
"New Beckenham Junction"? Where's that? There are New Beckenham (on *only* the Catford Bridge to Hayes line), and Beckenham Junction (on many lines, none directly through Catford) with the only link between their lines a walk (between Clock House and Beckenham Road (tramlink)/Kent House (railway); or excluding walking outside a station, via tram link at Elmers End -to- Arena -to- Beckenham Junction.
@@cigmorfil4101 "Where's that?" - On Map 18 of my Rail Atlas of Britain and Ireland, Poole, 1984 (shown as a freight link inbetween New Beckenham and Beckenham Junction stations).
Great video as always. People tend to forget That humans have always been dumb and prone to pettiness. In this case, also proving that unfettered capitalism and competition don't always bring the best solutions to prevail. Still, I do wonder why this particularly egregious example of duplication, wasn't among those rationalized when the companies merged. Or ever since, really (especially with all the cuts on unprofitable branches and lines, in the last 30 years). There are still conflicting interests at play?
There was no competition at all with the SER in much of North Kent. Towns like Gillingham, Sittingbourne, Sheerness, Faversham, Herne Bay, Westgate and Birchington had no rail service at all before the LCDR, whilst other places like Whitstable, Margate and Maidstone were given a far more direct service than that provided by the SER. Even Chatham and Rochester got a better service from the LCDR direct line to London. And, as well as Blackfriars, the LCDR had access to London Victoria too. The SER, though laughing first at the little East Kent Railway, got a real shock as it expanded. However, I read that the LCDR was something of a ramshackle railway, with many complaints about reliability of services and variable carriage stock and locomotive provision. It improved greatly after union with the SER.
Just a bit down was the old Lower Sydenham gasworks railway coming off there before Lower Sydenham station, me and a mate used to DJ at the Bell pub on the green there and opp that was a chap who made his fortune selling ex Gas, GPO, BR Bedford HA vans all set at a price of £100 with some MOT and maybe a bit o' tax thrown in, he also sold old Commers and CA's when he got 'em in and all for the astonishing price of £100 and many a builder, plumber or brickie worked those old beasts to death hehe
So, lots of not strictly necessary duplicate lines. But they take slightly different routes giving different journey opportunities and, as Edwin Course pointed out, if one line gets temporarily closed you have an alternative - very useful during WW2. Most still survive as useful suburban routes. Whereas north of the Thames you can go NS but not EW.
