The reason for the chunky pistol grip was explained to me being twofold. (Mind you, i can not confirm this, but the guy that told me was an old quartermaster so i have no reason to doubt him.) First, it was a weapon for conscripts. Being notoriously harsh on equipment, they wanted something even your average conscript couldn't bend or crack easily. Second, it was to be easy to grip with gloves or shooters-mittens during the fecking cold and snowy winters we have here.
Wouldn't a bigger pistol grip make it even more difficult to shoot with gloves or mittens? I only ask because I've always heard that the stock AK pistol grips are slightly *undersized* for that exact reason.
I learn more in 16 minutes with Jonathan than just about any other videos short of Forgotten Weapons. Thank you for the detail history lesson on this arm.
I’ll vouch for Forgotten Weapons and C&R Arsenal Brandon Herrera also dose some great takedown stuff too Plus Paul Harrell had a great channel focused more on tactics and performance but once in a while he would tear down what he he was shooting. He is a loss
The later 36 round mag is apparantly exelent. Not only double feed but also trapezoidal in cross section wich means the front of the cartridges stagger slightly more than natural to straighten out the stack, resulting in as good a feed as in curved 9mm para mags. Aparantly the uzi mags and many other later subgubs copied this The early coffin mags designed in sweden for the suomi was apparantly ok but a bitch to load and had stoppages on the last two rounds if loaded wrong
I wonder if the other two known ones also have their serial numbers ground off? If just one had a serial number or dated proof it would probably confirm one way or another whether these were before or after the US ones.
@jonathanferguson1211 Shame. I suppose raging curiosity isn't good enough reason. I've heard some remarkably silenced rifles on our 100yd tube range at Baildon. Looking forward to one of our members getting a De Lisle.
Nelson & Musgrave in their work stated about this weapon, "were not to quiet in firing". And because there was no positive alignmemt between the silencer and weapon "accuracy was quite poor". Maybe this is the are that the RA thinks was missing a part?. Numerous older publications state this is a USA/CIA fitted supressor, the guns green finished in the USA before shipping abroad. The ATF has one (which used to be misidentified in their collection as a Type 64 and there is another which used to crop up in US publications. If this model was not very effective it would explain why the other supressed US model was developed.
My dad used one in the navy. He liked it, as it was lighter than the Mauser. He carved a thumb shape in the grip as it was a horrible fit. I think your version was used by the secret SSG (now (basically) SOG).
During the 1960s there was a large anti-war movement active in Sweden. Eventually the Swedish government banned weapon sales to the US including the "Swedish K". In 1967 the American Gun maker Smith & Wesson produced a near copy of the the Swedish K, the Smith & Wesson Model 76. I doubt that the Swedes would have been developing sub-guns with mufflers for the CIA in 1970, that's probably a much earlier design. BTW, the Swedish K and its clone the M76 were standard issue for 1970s Hollywood movie bad guys. Two excellent films from that era that feature the M76 are the The Laughing Policeman from 1973 and The Taking of Pelham One Two Three from 1974. ETA: Another reason I doubt that the gun in question was produced for the CIA is the fact that the markings have been ground off. There used to be a gun maker in New Jersey called Plainfield Machine Company. During the 1960s and 70s Plainfield Machine produced a near exact copy of the WWII era M1 Carbine. Most of those guns were sold on the civilian market. It's been long rumored that M1 Carbines have shown up around the world with no markings...not removed, they were never marked in any way. It's been posited that those unmarked (sterile) carbines were produced by Plainfield Machine for the CIA.
Bit of context: Over time, Sweden came to oppose US involvement in the Vietnam War (and the US' atrocities in neighboring countries) and cut off military sales to the US. Sweden even built networks of hospitals in North Vietnam and sent significant humanitarian aid. The US already had M/45s in small numbers, like the one in the video, so it wasn't hard for the US to copy the design and continue using them with special forces. It was primarily used for practical reasons, but it also had the political significance of sowing distrust between North Vietnam and Sweden, since it implied that Sweden was still secretly selling military products to the US.
Well, the US version (S&W M76) wasn't all that similar after all and, some say, not all that well-made either, so it could be counted as a failure on both terms.
I think sweden have/had a very strict rule of NOT exporting weapons to countries in war and that came to halt the further deliverly from sweden to the US (they wanted more of them and sweden said Nope - you are at war and we ont export weapons to people in war) - and that makes the delivery to Ukraine now even more intrssting as we (sweden) deliver weapons to a nation in war AND has said do with them as you please either stay in ukraine or go over into russia with them.. Swedish politicians did nbot like the vietnam war (that famous picture of the girl burned by napalm didnt do the US any favors) and sweden was also against the Korean war and sent only hospital units and they treated ALL that came to them equaly as far as i know and it was not liked by the US.
Has the Royal Armouries ever considered getting objects that cannot be disassembled (like the suppressor on this Carl Gustav) X-rayed or CT scanned in order to get high quality pictures/3D models of the insides? Could be a cool thing to have on your website for example. The piece remains undamaged while everyone can still get to see what the insides are like
Bit of swedish "myth" about that weapon: The endcap is meant to come off for cleaning and one of the alledged ways to increase the firing rate is to place a battery (wich fit perfectly in the tube) between the buttplate and the spring thus tensioning the spring. Never tried it myself but it´s one of those stories passed down from conscript to conscript as "absolutely true".
Well at least it is a better story than the ones that claimed that the ammunition was so weak that it would not penetrate a rain coat at 100/200/300 meters. (The exact distance depends on the storyteller but 300 was more common than 100.) Which is a fascinating claim given that the m/39b round used is actually semi-armour piercing.
I did that during my service. Works perfectly if you want an uncontrollable rate of fire... You can also instead double the recoil spring for even faster rate, but then you run the risk of it not being able to hook to the trigger, i.e you have a runaway sub that you need to point to something while it empties the mag. Not good! Ask me how I know...
If you are curious, look up Administrative Results: he did a video on the original model Swedish K with Garand Thumb and they tested the battery trick and it worked.
It's called the "Swedish K" because _nobody_ outside Sweden can pronounce "Kulsprutepistol". The word means "machine gun pistol", i.e. a parallell to the german "maschinenpistole".
I would observe that, as this appears to be a far superior suppressor, that the CIA and/or Carl Gustav were not super impressed with the original HEL version, that someone in Sweden has gone back and designed an OEM version, with more emphasis on quality and less pressure to get the gun ready ‘on time’.
Yeah, I carried the K-pist for a while when I was in the service. The absolutely best part of it is how simple it is which makes it extremely reliable and also very easy to keep clean.
Jonathan, if you shorten the length of a coil spring, you increase the spring rate and the force required to compress it. Which would make sense with a suppressor given the increased gas pressure within the barrel/supressor, so increasing the force required to compress the spring would compensate. When my Grandfather was in Palestine before WW2 to quell the Arab uprising, he was seconded into the Mandate Police Force and worked with the night squads, they all used captured weapons on the night operations to neutralise the Arab terrorists, to give deniability
I had a registered tube gun (USA NFA legal). Mine was about 50/50 Swedish K and Port Said parts. It ran sticks, coffins, and drums with alacrity. I so wish I had made a suppressed barrel rig for it. MG's are fun, but it lost its luster in about six years for me. I like SBS/SBR and Suppressor stuff a lot.
One interesting user of the K. Daniel Ellsberg, when employed by the State Dept, touring all the zones of Vietnam and looking at what was going on, carried a K. He said in his book that it gave him a certain cachet, as people rhought he was with the CIA.
These always remind me of spec ops in Vietnam. Before I could type, Johnathan mentions its current role. I've seen at least three being shown, reminding me of the eyewitness book series from the early 1990s ❤
Or a doubled recoil spring, both works, but trying to combine them makes it into a pistol caliber magasine fed unlocked open manual bolt action long barrel heavy pistol
the M/45(A) could changed magazine well. ass we had a lot of old magazine from the old finish SMG. when the B version came. the magazine well got bolted to the gun and it got the hook. if you ever see a picture of one with a huge Bayonet in swedish service. Its the C version. If you find a black with a fireselector it´s the police version M/45BE. if you have one that can only shoot singelshoot and got a strange thing in the end of the barrel. it´s a M/45BET. Do not try to fire a live round in that. because that was modifyed to fire CS granades only. as far as I know. that Is all the things. you didn´t know that you needed to know about M/45 versions in Swedish service.
There's also the C, essentially only a different barrel shroud incorporating a bayonet mount. We switched to that shroud (on our otherwise B's) as we stood guard at the royal palaces. A big ol' blade, about as long as the gun itself) pointed in ones general direction tends to get the attention even of drunkards ... To convince those still belligerent, and maybe not too familiar with weapons manipulation, there was also the bright red extra safety plate/device (clipped into to the ejection port, blocking the bolt from going forward) that'd be pulled and thrown clattering to the ground if the situation warranted potential use of the gun. The C was, from what I've read, also used by the Swedish UN troops in Congo, also as an extra obvious visual deterrent.
@@michaeltempsch5282 for non Swedish viewers: A similiar purpose red metal safety clip is still used by Swedish home guard militia soldiers on their HK G3 derived ak4B/C rifles during non-training guard duties, like guarding the royal palaces. And unlike the Danish or Brittish palace guards, the Swedish ones are *not* exclusively ceremonial. Their primary duty is as a military anti-coup defense and quick reaction force for the defense and evacuation of the monarch, court staff of the palace, the ministers of government and members of parliament. Regardless if it's the off season green fractal pattern combat uniformed guards at night, grey dress uniformed guards in off season daytime with modern carbines/rifles or tourist season 19th century blue and silver cavalry uniformed guards with sabre and 6.5×55mm m/1896 mauser carbines, they are all carrying live rounds in the firearms, the swords or bayonets are service sharpened and they are trained and authorised to if, when and how to use them to defend the lives of themselves and/or others if need be. When I did two palace guard tours as a conscript, we were, however, jokingly advised to not use the bayonet if it could be avoided due to how it would look in the press... And that any weapon use had to be defensible in court on the same level as if we were civilian private security.
If i remember correctly, one of these, (well, a silenced Swedish K anyway), get's used in the rather good novel about a psychologically damaged Spec-Forces Soldier in the Vietnam War titled "sympathy for the Devil". (the author was spec-forces in that war, so how much of it was semi-autobiographical is anyone's guess)
I really want Jonathan to become a knight just so we can say Sir Jonathan Ferguson Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries Museum in the UK, Which Houses a Collection of Thousands of Iconic Weapons from Throughout History.
This looks a bit over-engineered to me. I can't figure out what the speed holes are for. We've suppressed a couple of Port Said SMGs (same gun made in Egypt) using a shortened ported barrel surrounded by a wire mesh wrap and fronted with a monocore aluminum baffle insert, all stacked in a single piece tube. The guns functioned fine without need of a lightened bolt or shortened spring. Regarding the stuck front end cap, we've had good luck loosening frozen parts by soaking them overnight in a 50/50 mixture of acetone and automatic transmission fluid. If you try it, I suggest placing the tube in a padded vice and using a padded wrench to work the end cap free.
I love that the CIA gifted this wonderful gun to the UK's Royal Armour with zero back story. Historians: Wow what a wonderful piece! Can you tell us about it? CIA: Nope! Historians: You must be able to tell us something. Can you confirm it was used by the CIA? CIA: We can neither confirm nor deny our agencies relationship with this piece.
Excellent, I’ve heard ans read somewhere.. that this type of suppressor is original Carl Gustav. The holes up front were designed to allow water to drain out more quickley. Which led me to think that they were originally made for Swedish combatdivers. I’m planning to access the archives the winter and see if I can dig something up.
Clearly two different versions existed. The version shown in this video I often see referred to as American produced version. Sweden embargoed the sale of the m/45 in 1966. I had assumed that this was when the American produced version was introduced. I would be interested in your source for the 1963 data of the American suppressor production. It is interested that this has the green finish. Although early versions of the m/45 are said to have had a gun metal.
The reason for the different levels of patina is probably the metal quality. The metal on the outside is probably less expensive, lower quality, sheet metal. The bolt is certainly made of a higher quality, heat treated, hardened steel.
some were sanitized and some weren't Jonathon it depended on a couple factors one what it was who and what it used for and where and two how it was acquired!! if was used by special forces units and came from acknowledged contracts like the seals got and was used in Nam proper it kept it's markings if it went to a group like Phoenix, if it used over the border in Laos/Cambodia or came from a round about indirect purchase (shall we call it!!) after the swedes decided they wouldn't supply anymore it got sanitized from what i was told by a couple SOG/phoenix vets i grew up around!
Another superb video. Love the series. Can't remember if you said if the gun was test fired and its report captured? Sub sonic rounds with high suppression of exhaust gasses, not much more than the mechanicals to be heard! Keep up the great work :)
It is always a delightful experience to see Jonathan Ferguson The Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armories Museum in the UK, home to thousands of iconic weapons throughout history explain things
You should really do the barrel cam more often, especially on suppressed guns. Not something you normally see from that same perspective. Makes you wonder what some of the newer reduced back-pressure 3d printed baffle designs look like from that angle..
Very interesting that they reduced the spring. I'm not sure how it would change the balance as he talked about but it would likely reduce the cyclic rate slightly I would imagine.
There were two of these in my Ranger unit in Vietnam. One was suppressed. One of the team leaders carried the unsuppressed version. I fired the suppressed one but remember it feeling awkward.
Also Irony: Okof Palme going to lengths denying US forces swedish weapons and the only thing swedish men who's done military service talk about is how cool it was that SEALs used the M45 in Vietnam. 😂
Steel is not meant to be in the white. It will mark and it will get darker and oxidise with use and time when used by "professional" soldiers. If you over clean weapons they will go out of tolerances and they will rust.
It’s a shame there aren’t modern semi auto reproductions of this being sold in the US. If you want a retro SMG for historical collecting, you’re basically limited to just the Thompson, maybe the Sten and M3 if Valkyrie Arms is still active.
Imagine having one of the coolest collections of firearms in the whole world and letting them corrode like this piece. The view through the cooling holes in the suppressor shroud was shocking.
