I think most of who follow TW and follow Serious Trivia will agree on these: Three Kingdoms is the best TW to date and Serious Trivia is its best content creator. Thanks man. Keep doing it. This game is deep. I learn something new from every episode.
Honestly? Yes! I just started playing the game out of nowhere. They have spiced up the formula just enough to make it super interesting! Finished my first campaign as Yuan Shu! And now I am trying to see what other character to play as for a second campaign.
Yesterday at work i was listening ro your 3 year old Sun Ce campaign. which got me starting a Sun Ce campaign. You sound a lot more confident these days, and I'm glad you've grown as a content creator. Thanks for the hours of entertainment at work brother, and keep it up.
I have literally been trying to research this exact kind of information to decide when to use militia, unique, standard and reform units at various stages of campaigns. You're a godsend ST, thank you so much for your work and your channel!
I remember watching the 3 kingdom preview streams, before the game launched and balance patches, militia could use formations and stuff like that. Ji militia were so overpowered they'd beat anything early to midgame and put the hurt on generals, good to hear that the balance patches did their job and brought this cheap early game generalist unit to its proper place
Hah, one of my favorite units is actually the heavy mounted archer. I like using them in my campaigns. Regarding the household cavalry, I did an epic Liu Yan campaign where Cao Ren was my heir. I eventually was able to get all the reforms for the household cavalry and had Cao Ren, Yuan Shang, and Zhou Tai with a truly glorious army of 18 household cavalry. Watching them charge headfirst was just amazing! An amazing video and effort!
Thank you for making this video, it is so incredibly helpful. It's given me some good ideas to tweak my armies, and also reinforced that trebuchets really are the only option. Thanks again!
People often complain that 3K has a small unit roster, but this is not true. It has a very restricted unit roster (restricted by general's color, general's rank and the extremely spread out reform tree), and sadly a large amount of units isn't really worth recruiting making the roster feel much smaller than it actually is. Luckily mods exist so it's not that hard to fix some of these issues, but it's really a shame. It's clear the game was made to be somewhat of a spiritual successor to Shogun 2, but Shogun 2's much smaller roster is just so much better designed. Still a great game, and I'm still salty CA dropped it. Thanks for the videos ST, you helped me a lot with 3K, making it one of my favourite TW entries.
Shogun 2 could've taken a bit more from the 3k approach. At least regarding a bit more variety instead of some base unit being a slightly superior unit based on what clan you picked. However 3k should've gone way more on the Shogun 2 route on how to get those units. So instead of it being so tech heavy or exclusive to a character to where stuff feels useless or just outmodded by comparison. Its cool to see the expanse 3k could bring. But its kinda made moot as you the player probably will only use or feel compelled to use a quarter of the roster available.
I just discovered this channel, and I've got to say you are by far and away the best Three Kingdoms youtuber I've ever found. I'm not even half way through this video, but it's amazing.
You beast. I gotta download the transcript for this one and keep in hand.😂 well done lad. Here’s to more Sirius-ness and epicness this year. Happy new yesr
So, I think Hidden Vipers definitely shouldn't be given F tier, and given that you assigned them f-tier I think you've probably not noticed the way to use them effectively. Which is to put them in mixed missile formation and use them as an infantry unit, fighting in melee. They can fire point-blank into units fighting them from the front, and their poison damage is actually high enough that if they're used this way they'll defeat Followers of the Flame or Imperial Sword Guard in a one-on-one fight. And it's not close. They don't get formations like turtle so they're more vulnerable to missile fire than some other high-tier infantry are, and they're more vulnerable to cavalry than anything with charge reflect or access to a formation that increases mass, but if they're up against other infantry, I think they might legitimately outperform any infantry-type units in the game as far as killing infantry goes. And even those two weaknesses aren't that substantial. They've still got 60% missile block chance, and their poison dot completely bypasses missile block chance less than 100, since it only matters whether one dart lands, and the poison damage bypasses missile resistance. And they have enough mass and morale not to get instantly routed by a cavalry charge. They don't get hard-countered by cavalry, they just don't handle it spectacularly. The way their poison dot works, as far as I can tell, is that if even one enemy model is hit by one dart, every model in the entire unit suffers 90 damage over 15 seconds. Which is much higher than, say, Yan Baihu's archers' poison damage, which is instead 22 damage over 15 seconds. And the dot also halves melee evasion. It's that difference in damage and the melee evasion debuff which results in the extraordinary performance they have in slugging matches against infantry. I haven't been able to use them extensively in a campaign just yet, but I feel like while their weaknesses might mean they shouldn't end up in, say, S tier, their strengths mean they certainly shouldn't be in F either. And I'm not completely sure about not putting them in S tier.
Great list ST as always! Whilst Militia Red Cav are good, I think maybe there is one overlooked aspect that makes them weaker than more expensive cav - the fact that they cannot use formations (apart from loose). Wedge is such an amazing formation, that I usually switch to lance cav for the midgame.
Zhanmajian is very underrated here. They're a realiable all-rounder through the early and mid game as they demolish both infantry and cavalry with all their bonuses and scare combined; I'm a fan of sabre infantry as well, but I like having a mix of both in my armies. They're amazing on offense but can also hold ground with charge negate from their Sentinel. I recruit Zhanmajian infantry pretty much every chance I get in my legendary campaigns until they get replaced by Protectors of Heaven. I think the repeating crossbow also deserves a higher tier for just how hard they counter any unit trying to charge at them. They can even focus down and kill the toughest enemy generals before they can get into your lines to wreak havoc. And with their sheer damage output they often end up with twice the kills compared to my regular crossbows whenever they get to unload all their ammo.
I think what lets zhanmajian down the most is their fairly low armour. But I agree, it's a fun unit to use, watching them send infantry flying never gets old.
ST dont shit on Yuan Shu unique units is a nice change lol. My boi no longer a Cav crossbow Trebuchet enjoyer. Also fun fact for u, warrior of Xu come at full strength just like Sun Jian mercenary units.
It was until yesterday I realized the juggernaut can burn the wall and toast army on the wall. I lost my Hulao pass defense because of this unit. Talk about madness. 😳
Great breakdown! Love to hear your insights at length like this. Not much I disagree with, either, which is very gratifying to have my opinions validated by the guy who is very arguably the single foremost expert on this game. That said… TROM unit tier list when? I’m mostly kidding, since that would be a huge undertaking requiring many, many hours of play to get a handle on all the new, rebalanced and reworked units. Still, as a TROM lover, I can’t say I wouldn’t love to hear your insights.
I have to comment this. You forgot to add Sima Ying in the 8 princes part!!! I was waiting for his unique cavalry archers to be rated! I was wondering where Sima Ying was and there are only 7 princes XD
agree with all the rankings except for the Defender of Earth, at least give them C, in my opinion(i would give them S to be honest). 1. their bombardment arrows are really deadly, both damage and morale, almost every infantry will perish very fast, even dealing with Protectors of heaven, rather routing with heavy casualty or fully destroyed(except for the terrain issue or calvary, since the arrow speed may not catch up with the horse speed effectively); 2. while facing enemy arrows, we can rather sponge arrow with other unit, or using spread formation to reduce the casualty, also their armor makes a quite decent defend for arrows; 3. when they fall behind and being charged, they will eventually defeat enemy unit, since enemy calvary unit is also 30/30 size, or enemy infantry routed/destroyed before they hit(unless enemy charged with a lot of units, in this case, something wrong must happen); 4. even they did not manage to defeat enemy unit with ranged attack, they still last quite enough in melee battle, also multiple small size unit meaning we can micro-manage them to surround the enemy unit. (i always have a strategist commanding 6 units of Defender of Earth, so the result of 1~3 is based on this, also this is just what i have encountered, maybe i missed something else) just want to point this out, since Defender of Earth really helps me a lot, they deserve the credits xD anyone who sees this should really try at least 1 time to watch enemy unit perish :P
Great video! Any chance you can do a breakdown and comparison of Yuan Shaos captain retinues, in the future? The base ones he has access to will upgrade as he gains faction rank, becoming more "elite", but they are replaced by Northern captain retinues if he hits rank 7 before King (If remember right). It would be niche as a video, but still interesting I think.
A general rule I like to stick to is “don’t push reforms for units”. Most of the reform units are only worth getting the reform if there’s a bonus or building attached that you need, every faction can get useful units of every type by just levelling up the Commander recruiting them
aah long, 1h in - just got to the part I wanted - northern units. Pretty much sums up how they felt, just I always thought/assumed they'd be better due to limit, they're not. N spear guards only one that worked and good to see it get some love here as well though.
I'd never put Archer Militia at F; they may be the worst missile units around, but even bad missile units are still useful, and since any general can recruit them and they are cheap you end up using them anyway. I'd put them at D or something.
I might be wrong. But isn't Sima Yue's Xu units have instant mustering? If that is the case, I think it should be higher. Or at least the Xu Raiders should be higher.
I also think you're discounting mounted archers a bit, they're good enough to kill archers and can kite kill basically any infantry, and you can do a surprising amount of damage compared to foot archers simply because you can easily manuever them around behind enemy shields.
It comes down to are they worth the micro. Like I am not opposed to having one or two but it’s extra work for very little return. And they do not kill archers if you are exchanging shots
Oh my goodness your English is so good! I would have thought you are legit American😂 Thanks for tossing me that ROTK lets talk lore playlist. I am so glad I found your channel i even bookmarked it! With that aside, what is total war? Is it a game? RTS? hack n slash? Im interested in playing it. I think i would find it interesting :)
White Tiger Raiders are my favorite, I get Yan Baihu to get 4 units for a strategist for the added ammo and fire arrows, rank them to level 10 and watch them roast enemy units until they give up.
Scholar warriors are exhaust immune, which make them quite good in my opinion, you don't struggle with money playing yellow turban because units are cheap and upkeeps are low. Especially if you want to move into the Nanman jungles, they are pretty much the only frontline you should use.
Also interesting that you rank the red tree so low: I almost always go fairly deep itno it just for the +10% replenishment, and at that point getting the cavalries is fairly simple.
You sacrifice so much economic development. So it’s like I want one really good cavalry army versus fielding 4 or 5 armies that are solid with the money from developing the economy. Also if you fight clean the replenishment shouldn’t be a crutch that you rely on
There is actually a lot I don't agree with in there. Probably "a lot" aka too long to comment. One of the most egregious one for me being Sima Liang Imperial Guards. You basically take a Sabre Infantry, upgrade their weapon slightly but you lose on the charge bonus, give them more armour but lose out on evasion. Finally they have a lot more morale and access to Turtle. For this they lose Caltrops & Smokebombs (which, is probably the only tradeoff where they come out seriously net positive) buuut you also have nearly have double the upkeep cost... So ranking them as S feels super weird to me. Esp when regular Sabre Infantry is C. Sima Liang IG are a B tier unit at best, overly expensive for a unit that wasn't balance patched out with time and frankly is completely redundant in a game where Spear Guards exist. Another one I'll take is the Zhanmajian infantry, the Zhanmajian and the Big Axe are the two hardest hitter weapons in the game with basically no contest bar cavalry charge. In MP I can understand the Zhanmajian being F tier because no way a player won't focus them with the few good ranged units they have. In SP, chances are, the AI will mostly have Militia Archers or Crossbows you can bait with other units and/or outrange and you can let the Zhanmajian roam free in the enemy formation and completely dismantle them. Another unit that should be closer to the B tier rather than the F tier to me. (Especially when you have trash like Pearl Dragons going around in the B tier lol) Still I believe Tierlists to be entierely subjective so such disagreements are to be expected. Keep up the good content and work ST (even if I don't neccessarily agree with you :p )
I love 3k! But it is so easy to abuse formations. Any mod you require that keeps formations relevant but removes them from being auto-win. Especially against archers and using turtle formations.
Ma teng Horse Archers are S tier, i don't play Ma teng himself, but when you unlock them in the Bandit tree tech they are literaly best units in the game (especialy since bandits's archer options are limited even after becoming emperor). There almost no units in the game that can do anything about them, these guys basicaly win fights on their own causing as much damage or more as high level generals with op items. Also i disagree for Mercenary Cavalry - these things die in big number in auto-combat because they don't have a shields, also they are useless at sieges and can die instantly if they get focused by archers - they are trash. Also Jian sword guards aren't too bad - they don't require reform like Sabre infantry (these are slightly better) and i honestly like swords more then spears for han factions. Jian swords with unlocked formations perform good enough.
Qiang Hunters being A tier instead of S tier I think is close and I do agree they are good units, but they are not the best unit in the game and not even the best mounted archers in the game as Gongsun Zan's White Horse Fellows are better both in terms of ranged damage/range and in terms of being a better cavalry unit with higher charge. Imperial Crossbow Cavalry are also better with double unit size and crossbow damage. I can see that your experience with bandits (who have a limited roster) might have skewed your opinion on them but A tier is more than fair for them. I also feel like you are rating the mercenary cavalry from a framework of getting them as a faction that doesn't have Sun Ce (through the bandit network or the Nanman reforms). With Sun Ce, they are cavalry units with over 500 charge bonus that can be recruited on any general with instant mustering. Relative to all other cavalry options, they are definitely S tier. Being useless in siege and having bad delegate values are not reasons to punish a shock cavalry unit as that can be said for any shock cavalry unit. If you want good delegate value and usefulness all around, you would just be spamming protector of heavens and maybe a trebuchet or two and nothing else.
Spear guard/heavy is god tier. Perfect to be an anvil + the OP hammer. Not to mention how easy to recruit them. S tier IMO. Besides the gladius, spear is a very sexy weapon
@@SeriousTrivia I once have a 1 v 2 battle long ago, full heavy spear + 6 heavy crossbow + 4 shock cal. I rush and form a ring at the base of a hill with crossbow in the center. The line held till the end and the scene is absolute nuts. Body lay all around at the base of the hill, literally a ring of body. I still love to use them even I can afford to recruit max stack of imperial guard
Strongest cavalry in the game would be massenger of haven, Very fast, easy to engage and disengage, can win against any cavalry, in my army, (always reliable to counter a cavalry) Gives scare, And all in all, always gets like 160+ kills as long as they are not trapped against glaive or spears.
your ranking is different from the old ones 3 years ago, is this because they were nerfed? Like those mounted ranged units, I compared the old video, their ranged attack rate are much lower now.
@@SeriousTrivia You definitely also have fallen off Huanglao's Paragons and Defenders of Earth, I see! Meanwhile seeing Xiliang Cavalry in the same tier is Qiang Marauders is a huge jump.
Are there any exceptions to the rule? For example: Sun Ce with Mounted Lancer Militia? Are his bonuses able to make them more viable? If so, are there other officers that this applies to?
well that’s where you have to shift the values yourself since there are so many ways to boost unit stats in the game. You can’t point to one thing. For example Zheng Jiang’s faction can give all her units unbreakable. Huang Shao can give all his units stalk. This tier list only compare the base value of the units
Personally I feel you underestimate what you can do with the 33% (58% counting the shield) evasion of the tiger cubs, that with the guerrilla deployment ability (which commanders lack access to) allow you to do a lot with them Also Qingzhou halberds lack of a shield makes them very fragile in comparation with the Qingzhou spears which have a 60% block chance
What was funny was the archer militia used to be good... WAY too good. Good to the point that it was broken. When the game was launched before the 1st DLC, militia archers were soo broken that a full 120 unit can just grind down literally any units, even Cao Cao's Leopard & Tiger Cavalry units like they were nothing despite their relatively high armor values and they can even grind down the Elite Jian Infantry units also which was downright stupid. It got into soo much complaint that they had to nerf it to oblivion and now we have the useless units who can't even hit the side of a barn even when it's 10m right ahead.
Nicely done. There are only few things that I disagree with you on here, and one of them being Jian sword guards. For cavalry, yeah Saber cavalry is better, but sword guards do a lot of work with their long swords, in terms of armor piercing, and they are pretty durable. I believe sword guard should be A tier.
I feel like premium end tier unit in this game are not spam one unit are roll other the game (like in other TW), I like to put one or two in my army just to get the extra oomf where needed and the rest is just stander units, works very well ^^
I just finished a Yuan Shao campaign and found out that once you get the Northern army, all the lieutenants being recruited will become the Northern army. So Yuan Shao can actually neglect the Northern army cap
Idk if it was a bug or a mod at one point but yuan shu had the ability to recruit Yuan shaos unique units. It was the trait that shao shares with his sons
Does your shock cavalry captain get the discount from horse pastures? Mine didn't receive the discount and I want to figure out whether that's because of the mods or something
the counterpoint being it’s also a unit you would want to replace eventually due its poor delegate value and combat value. The argument can be made that you probably always need one but the same can be said of mounted saber militia for wasting all your enemies’s ammo but I don’t think that puts the unit into S (both ended up being B)
Where would you rank Mountain Hunters archer units, for Shi Xie and others depending on the mods? Once your Strategist gets fire arrows they can creep up to towers hidden and then set them alight. Seems like an S tier "Quality of Life" strength to me.
Depending on which mod you are talking about since a lot of mods overhaul all the units so it wouldn’t even make sense to compare them to this particular list. Quality of life for fire archer feels a bit overrating the unit itself. Like an archer militia can serve that purpose too if that’s the only reason you feel like they should get a high rating
How did imperial cav get a B? They strait up delete units with all of them having mighty knockback! You can solo an entire army with 3 of them and careful micro
hey! I have a question about the "ye vanguard spearmen", I cant choose who they shoot and overall, they dont really shoot, it seems to be a bug? Is that a bug or Im missing something about how to use them?¿
You need to turn off their melee mode to manual select their shooting target. If you want them to fire automatically at whoever is in range, you can also turn on fire at will and melee mode
@@SeriousTrivia sorry for the late answer, I was not using them in formation and in todays playthrough they worked as intended, I rlly think its a super weird bug
I don’t really understand Warriors of Xu being F tier? I get they don’t perform better than Xu Raiders enough for the price but the instant mustering alone in my opinion should bring it up to at least A just for the versatility of being able to raise a unit, even if it’s not amazing, any time immediately. You mentioned the instant mustering for the mercenary units for Sun Jia/Sun Ce so I’m just curious why Warriors of Xu are deemed so much worse than them? I might be missing something but is it just the price being way more for not much benefit?
@@TriAzF you bring up instant mustering. The benefit is also on Xu Raiders. So in what instance would you opt for Warriors of Xu over Xu Raiders is my argument here. They are two similar unit with very similar stats (high price for slightly higher defensive stats and high rank requirement to recruit). I rate a lot of F tier unit not because they are bad in isolation but because you would just never recruit them over a similarly available unit.
@@SeriousTrivia I might be incorrect but I’m pretty sure Xu Raiders don’t have instant mustering, only the Warriors of Xu. Though if you are correct that Xu Raiders also have instant mustering, I do understand your point. Plus you bring up a good point about rank. Sun Jian’s faction anyone can get a full retinue army immediately even at level one, whereas for Sima Yue they need to be level 6 (or 3 is Xu Raiders also have it) and your higher level generals might already be out on the field
I've always wanted to play a Cataphract army and just bulldoze enemy armies from the front with armored cav, but it feels so incorrect since every army has a ton of spears. Can Heavy Cats actually charge into braced spears, or will the reflect just destroy them?
@@SeriousTrivia Thanks for answering. That's disappointing. I really wanted to recreate the "riding them down" imagery from the books. Do heavy cavalry armies just micro until the spears aren't braced?
i get the argument of the trebuchet versus the multi crossbow. however, f tier is just not it, ive gotten consistent 200+ kills with it and it can absolutely punch way above its wage.
For the same price and condition, you should always pick the trebuchet. Like I can get a ton of kills with heavy cavalry, but that doesn’t make them not a F tier
@@SeriousTrivia hi! thank for replying! If it overperform its cost consistently isnt this enough to warrant a decent tier even tho the treb will outshine it? By that logic why even put any horse archer for example above F if others in the same category are just better isnt it the same? Maybe I have not played enough annoying map terrain but when I find xbows sometimes in starting lord's army im not thinking: "ew f tier shit" in my head at the very least haha cuz having artillery is such a boon to force ai to engage and work around plus the xbow can shred cavalry weak to projectiles while trebs will just miss most shots on them.. Or maybe its like " in term of artillery available in the game its F tier" and since artillery is so good and limited it made me confused? maybe thats it lol. thank you for the tier list and video!
1. horse archers are not competing directly against each other since the availability are different. 2. certain factions such as Gongsun Zan and Ma Teng have really good horse archers due to the fact that they can double as a regular charging cavalry. For them specifically, the other horse archers would be in fact in F tier for how I would like to rank things because in no case would you ever consider recruiting a normal horse archer or heavy horse archer. 3. But for all other factions as this is a generic tier list, even the regular horse archer have arguably some value as recruiting just one and having it kite with fire arrows to pull certain units away from the enemy formation has some value (even though it is a bit of micro). For the Multishot Crossbow since it becomes available at the same time for all strategists at all ranks and have the same price and upkeep as the trebuchet, I find it an unit that is never worth recruiting due to the performance differences. Even though you could argue that in 50% of the open field battles, you might get slightly more kills than the trebuchet (arguably after some of my campaign experience even). The other 50% of open field battles where you get hills or elevation changes and 100% of the siege battles will completely favor the trebuchet. This is not even considering weather as in rain the fire bolts that could be slightly useful for siege battles becomes useless while the standard shot of the trebuchet can still be used to knock down towers and wall. Here is an episode from a let's play through where I tested these two unit side by side and shows why I personally don't ever want to recruit the crossbow version and why it ends up in F. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-F7WjjMfADvE.html
@@SeriousTrivia I see! I understand your criterias better now. Thank you for being thorough. Its more of a "should I recruit this or not" rather than "will it perform for its cost". thats actually more in depth/holistic view since it focus on availability and faction strenghts atm of recruit. I am new to tier lists, this is the first time I need research to clear a max difficulty setting total war campaing and I played all of them except for troy and pharaoh. Maybe im rusty from too much WH3, ive grown dependent on the cheese lol.
but with trebuchet in the game and available for all factions at the same cost of the multiple bolt crossbow, you have 0 incentive to ever recruit the multiple bolt crossbow and thus it should be F tier
@@SeriousTrivia Ah that's unfortunate. I've really been playing a lot of records-mode TROM recently (with some extra mods) and I think it really elevates the game.
