The Conservative's 'Economic Traps' | Should Britain Return Ancient Artefacts? | Populism Deep-Dive 

The Greeks should send Rishi a large wooden horse.

Interesting conversation. I find the issue with establishment politicians is that they rightly decry populism but fail to acknowledge that populism rises where the establishment parties refuse to resolve or even acknowledge the issues that matter to the everyday person in the country. In Ireland there have been massive demographic shifts in the last 20 years with 20% of the population not having been born in the country which is an incredibly high level. This population growth has put huge pressure on housing and services which is fueling the anti immigration stance and will be a part of what boiled over in Dublin. There is a perception in the country that politicians are more concerned with how they are perceived externally (and that played out here) than in actually acknowledging and fixing issues - this is what is driving the rise of Sinn Fein as the most popular party in the country.

The explosion at the Parthenon happened in the 17th century more than 100 years before Lord Elgin took the marbles (19th century). So the argument that they would have been destroyed by the explosion if not for Elgin is illogical.

Rory please visit Andalucia to see how wonderful the windturbines work in a beautiful landscape

Rory mentions the Mona Lisa, but didn't Leonardo da Vinci paint it while he was in exile in France, and under the protection of King Francois I ? Thus, arguably France does have a legitimate claim on the ownership of the painting.

Some of the problems left for Labour: The RAAC concrete repair bill. NHS building program. Record NHS waiting lists. Local authorities going into section 114 (bankruptcy). Full prison system. Shortage of prison officers. Massive asylum seeker backlog. Implementation of full customs and border controls. Declining public services. Pension system reform.

Tories deny losing Marbles is the headline that should write itself.

I think populism can get FAR worse in the UK.

Rory is increasingly becoming a bit of a hero of mine, tbh.

The explosion of the roof of Parthenon, the temple in which the Ottoman ammunition was stored, during the siege of the Acropolis of Athens, by the Venetians, took place in 1687. Therefore, Rory's information transmitted during the pod, that Elgin taking the marbles in 1800, had actually saved them from been destroyed by said explosion of the 1687, sounds for a historian like him, pretty ludicrous. I hope he agrees.

Wind turbines attract tourists if they are placed in dramatic landscapes. I live in the Scottish Borders and foreign tourists are impressed with a big on shore wind-farm.

Labour does NOT represent the traditional working class in Britain, Rory. Look at Starmer's complete failure to back union strikes over pay.

I keep hearing that wind farms are noisy but I cycled right under one the other day when it was windy and there was no noise. the gearing is such that they rotate slowly and generate little noise. I cycled past a farm with a small wind turbine that was really turning fast in the wind and it was incredibly noisy. We need on shore wind. It is a no brainer. claiming that they are ugly is pure NIMBYism. I would have one in my garden if I could.

I’m not sure the Netherlands is “aggressively secular”. They are still divided with a strongly Catholic south, and when I used to visit (up to 7 years ago), they still had religious radio stations. Plus there’s a staunchly conservative “Bible Belt” in Zeeland.

Richie doesn't want to see his name associated with lost marbles.

One big reason why support for many left-wing parties is collapsing is because many such parties have been taken over to some extent by 'progressive' left-wingers and 'social justice warriors' who focus far too heavily on issues - regarding trans-ideology, identity politics, 'politically-correct' language use, etc - that are a million miles away from the day-to-day concerns of most of those who previously and traditionally voted for socialist or centre-left parties. Some of these 'progressives' appear to believe that, for instance, having teachers affirm a child's transgender beliefs is is more important than the question of education funding. The UK Labour Party needs to avoid the same trap.

Come on peops, give the guys a like! Spread the chance to see this more widely!

Why would Labour take the chance on talking about higher taxes when they are already so far ahead? It’s their election to lose so all they need to do is avoid mistakes. The Tories are going to have to come up with a dramatic idea to change the polls. They need to take the risks.

Excellent talk chaps, thank you.

Would love to hear your thoughts on the UAE buying up huge chunks of Africa for carbon credits

Not sure the UK can go the right-wing populism way like some other countries because we are becoming less and less religious. They are having to use "attacks on British culture" rather than "attacks on traditional (religious) family values".

Surely Turkey should pay the British for the Elgin marbles and then return them to the Greeks whom they colonised and exploited.

Fantastic show thankyou

Your discussion about Geert Wilders and Dutch populism was great and very accurate! There were a few inaccuracies in your description of the Dutch election system. Firstly we actually do vote for individual members of our political parties. If any member of a party gets at least 1/600 th part of the total vote they get to ignore their place on party lists. Members also can’t be expelled from parliament if they are thrown out of parliament they often start new parties when this happens, like Omzigt did. The parliament often feels weak because they don’t get a lot of support staff. Our governments also don’t tend to fail due to unexpected events. The previous government actually dealt with the energy crisis and the Ukraine war relatively well. The government actually fell because the VVD didn’t feel they could compromise on immigration again.

Giving back the Elgin Marbles can be a "strong " and diplomatic action.. I wld recommend the opposite: that if they stay in Britain they shd be "on loan " to the UK., with an eventual return date.Totally accept that the world is full of museum objects from elsewhere. I worked in a Museum for many yrs.

As James Acaster said, "We're still looking at them"

Alister seems to show his political leanings rather more strongly than Rory who seems more even handed

Big up Dr Mondon

If these two formed a party and ran for PM they'd have my vote.

They should absolutely return ancient artifacts, It was never there's to take

Another great show. Keep up the good work defending the centre ground of politics. Popularist and divisive factions seem to be working hard to erode western democracies. Would love to see a show focus on the defence of democracy with a guest like Vlad Vexler or Jonathan Fink.

the Elgin marbles? really? never seen them and never will see them. I'd rather to go Stonehenge or York Minster. I'd rather be able to afford to put my central heating on more than anything.

Existing to lay traps. Brilliant.

Can't believe Rory about populism. If you look at the Brexit Tories and le Pen in France rhetoric about the EU, immigration, national status, they are the same except that the UK left the EU whilst Le Pen had that ambition but has now shelved it.

If some rich oligarch had bought Stonehenge and shipped it abroad ,would we want it back ?

You called it Rory, what is Labour going to do? Remember what happened with the bond markets when Truss proposed unfunded spending. When Labour came to power 26 years ago, the public finances were in good shape. Not this time around. Growth from the green economy is for the birds as they’ll be fewer jobs permanent jobs created.

I think they were originally looking at a mechanism to lend it back to the Greeks in exchange for other artifacts…looks like that idea has fallen apart

Slight correction regarding the Mona Lisa in the Louvre: it was given to François I. by Leonardo da Vinci

Hi Channel Owner, Would you be able to put the date of recording in the title?

Oh Rory. Calling a break on the windmills 😂😂

I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea that historical artifacts are better protected in western countries, but that just doesn't apply to greece

What we used to call the common market, Free Trade, and the Customs Union will be the first things Labor will do. The UK does not need to adjust any of its current laws to comply with those standards.

My late grandfather was a manual worker. His jobs included working in a coal mine, and working in a power station. He was a massive Labour supporter - the sort of voter Labour could count on at each election .... However, he was also a racist and sexist. I suspect a lot of his peers shared his views. IMO Labour has moved away from him, ie their "traditional" base. Over recent years Labour has (rightly) made progress on issues like race / women's rights / LGBTQ+ rights etc. I wonder who my grandfather would vote for today if he was still alive.

Love your talks.

Please interview Gwyn Bevan of the LSE, his new book “How Did Britain Come to This? A century of systemic failures of governance” directly touches on topics you discuss on your podcast

I'm a bit populist - a little influenced by culture war issues - a little less trusting that the bbc is has the liberal humanist values as I once might have assumed were it's life blood. But I suspect that populist inclined people like me - are here to play for. The populist right possibly contains liberal humanists like me who have lost trust that the mainstream are still liberal humanist at their core. That's why I'm listening to Rory. I'm casting round for alternatives. I want to be in the centre.

Look at Sinn Féin in both North and South of Ireland, most popular party by votes but not as yet in government.

Name dropping!

Mona Lisa was finished in France by Da Vinci as guest of the French king, France later bought the finished painting (from the painter or his apprentice)? Ff that is comparable with the British diplomat removing nice parts of an existing ancient building in Athens... Finders keepers indeed.

It is clear to all people working in public services including myself in the NHS that we are in a position of managed decline. Everything is steadily being cut to the bone. Many services dealing with low moral and high sickness rates and people in a stage of burnout and running on empty. I remember under Thatcher huge long waiting lists. It was Gordon Brown and Tony Blair who changed the NHS and invested heavily. The Tories have continuously said they are increasing funding but this is never felt on the ground. Labour brought in a new GP contract with a quality and outcomes framework and Labour brought in the 2 week wait system for suspected cancers. I have seen no great improvement under the tories. Doctors being replaced with Nurses, Doctors assistants, paramedics and allied staff. The PCN is just a failure with GPs pocketing money as income that was destined for front line services. The system is no longer a patient care first organisation. Very sad that Hunt played politics and gave money away instead of helping boost the NHS, police, prisons and schools. England is slowly declining into a failed state.

Sinn Fein are not the only political party in Ireland that is populist. All the major parties have done this particularly Fianna Fail, in the run up to elections. It appears to be the nature of how we do politics in Ireland ! Generally, in recent years, on election these populist ideas get watered down in negotiations to form governments. Sinn Fein, despite their apparent electoral support, are very unlikely to have enough support to form a government on their own due to the PR system in place. So they will probably try first to get coalition partners from the left first, however they tend to be a fractous lot, and this attempt failed last time. Sinn Fein should have more seats next election so it may make a 'Government of the Left' more attainable but still a much more unstable proposition then the current government.If negotiations for a government of the left fails, or for a more stable government, Sinn Fein will probably then look to Fianna Fail with some left leaning independent TDs (MPs). That will require modification to Sinn Feins manifesto. Expect radical front line policies on a border poll, reductions in existing limited committments in evolving European common defence policy and increased focus (spending) on housing and the health service to remain but not so much on radical changes to the economy. Membership of the Euro makes radical changes to taxation and expenditure difficult for an Irish government and I'mnit sure Sinn Fein fully appreciate this hard fact yet. Not sure how good Sinn Fein would be in real government, as they have never been in the position to have to make difficult unpopular decisions for the good of the country at the expense of support from their community before, even in Northern Ireland. Be a real test to see if they are just a shallow party of protest or has the guts to do the hard work an represent the entire nation fairly in the interests of the whole country. Fianna Fail did that in the 1930's when it transitioned from the political wing of the hard republican anti treaty losing side in the Irish Civil War to a government that dominated Irish politics until 2011.

I would love to see Nigel Farage on their show

Regardless of the outcome, one appreciates an adult and grown ups discussion

The economic argument is simple. Has the Conservative policy worked?

None of us would have anything if it all went back - no multiculturalism, the Met would be very sad - it would be as empty as Moma, which is a great place for lunch but not hours of discovery. I've been to London a few times but not Greece. I was happy to see the Elgin Marbles. And you know Greece would never give them back in a loan program, it would be a trade program. My 13 year old vehemently disagrees with me on this btw.

Nice to hear Meloni pronounced like Malloney!

Income based tax cuts are good; Wealth tax is the way to go if you want to pay for a Caring Society

We need cheaper energy to improve the economy. We need to invest in green energy. We need to have energy security.

There is no parallel between the Elgin marbles and Mona Lisa. Italy has no right to claim to Mona Lisa because Leonardo himself brought it to France when he moved there to work for the French king Francis I. Leonardo might have brought it finished or completed it in France. Francis paid for the painting. Incidentally, in Leonardo’s time Italy was no political entity.

Give the Parthenon matbles back to Greece.

Having listened to your content for a few months now. Forgive me, I'm slowly becoming accustomed to the notion that one ought not to presume that bad faith actors are not always.

I have long since thought what Hollande said, re: Brexit as peak populaism. I compare it to a catharsis, where we got it all out, and then came to terms with what that all really meant. If ever we wished to seperate ourselves from Europe, then it is preicsely in this moment: no, as before, we will not follow their nationalist and fascist trajectories. I believe Britian is at its truest when moderate, and stoic. For whatever ills these isles have committed - many, of coure - that long-standing sense of fair play, privacy, freedom, tolerance, but also respect for law, calm, order, have long set this nation apart from others. Not to mention its creativity, love for eccentricity, and its general regard for the undergod. A bit of romanticism, most cetainly, but a grain of truth therein, no?

I dont understand how rory is a conservative. I agree with him that brexit is terrible but he seems a liberal on almost every issue. Its very dissapapointing to not have any defence of britain keeping the objects in the british museum.

Ireland has always a racist country. As an irish person i ashamed to say that. A continuous rotation of racial hatred is a broad stipe that runs through the character of the people. It was the english, then africans/ blacks, then polish, now Ukrainians. Wealth is not a factor here. This is cultural.

Obviously, what was commonly appropriate 100 or 150 years ago isn’t any more …. Unless it suits us … right ?

i dont understand. shouldn't democratic governments be populist?

the tax burden is a false statistic for individual finances; as is shown by citing frozen income tax thresholds, but ignoring the cut in ni comes after the ni threshold was increased last year - the biggest hit on take home pay comes from inflation, largely energy spikes from ukrainem & covid recovery. Interestingly alistair & labour spent most of 2000-16 telling us european free movement didn't supress native wages - but happily tell us labour shortages increase inflation through payrises..

laying traps = emptying the public coffers by handing out money in tax cuts. tax cuts that incentivise research and development is excellent.

Has alastair forgot suella was sacked from government?

The Parthenon marbles (I refuse to call them by the name of the latter day English thief who stole and then sold them in a divorce settlement) are Greek and belong to Greece. The argument ends there. The whole “protecting a world heritage from the depredations of war” is historical and patronising tosh. If the Greeks want to grind them up a make them into egg timers that is their affair, not that they would. How typically arrogant to suggest that only the English can preserve another nation’s heritage. You still have mokomokai (preserved Maori heads) taken from New Zealand by English botanist Joseph Banks. Why? And why have they not been returned? It is a living affront to modern Maori. Are they unfit to deal with the remains of their ancestors. The retention of ill-gotten loot from the days of Empire has now got more to do with a desperate clinging to the nonsense that Britain still matters than it has with any sense of historical guardianship. Give the marbles (and the mokomokai) back and quick sticks! There’s more honour in that than clinging to a stolen past.

Rory, I'm (surprisingly) with Alister on this; I've never seen a more populist ultra-right government in power in the UK. Braverman is as disgusting and un-hinged as any populist you could offer up from around the world, and I have serious concerns for the safety and rationality of the UK going forward if this is the calibre and type of politician that can sit in mainstream politics in the UK. We are in 'Mosley' territory here, not too much of a stretch.

The terms under which the BM was given the marbles are very clear. They were to be kept together and called the 'Elgin Marbles'. So if the museum break any of those terms, they forfeit ownership. So if the Greek PM wants to discuss getting the marbles, he needs to speak to their owners, the BM. It's fck all to do with Sunak or Starma.

Declan Walsh is indeed doing great work (fyi he is irish).

The marbles are british by ownership, they were brought for. But if they must be returned, im sure Ankara would be happy to have them. The argument that people did deals centuries ago, that you may dislkie is hardly an argumentive position.

Some context on the riot in Dublin.. It was likely started by a few far right thugs, but it would not be correct to classify the rest as generally "far-right" or anti-immigrant. Teenagers and young men from the north inner city joined in, happy enough for any excuse to steal stuff, attack the cops and cause general mayhem. Pathetic opportunistic thug behavior that was enabled by the complete unpreparedness of the Irish police, but not so much "far right". For a majority of them, they'd be devastated by the cuts to their social welfare that an actual right-wing govt would bring, also doubtful that they even vote.

Agreed we pander a lot to the right. HIGNFY gave free publicity to Farage in the early years.

Just for the record, Alistair, the guy that started the riots in Dublin by attacking Irish children, with foreign parents, was from Algeria he has some mental health issues.

UK has no legal legs to stand on wrt stolen goods.😅😅😅

In terms of civil wars, coups etc. around the world, will you please comment on what's happening in north Myanmar! It's vitally important in terms of geopolitics, because China is an interested party (as always in Asia at least). China is funding and equipping the rebels in the north ostensibly because they want to eradicate the kidnapping/hacking/scamming cartels/families in north Myanmar where the vast majority of victims are from Mainland China, but in the slightly longer term, if China has control (or cooperation) of Myanmar, they'll get an additional route through which oil from the Middle East can be transported to China much more easily. It's time the western media pay attention to what China is up to, all over the place.

Aljazeera deserves as many shout outs as it can get. Far superior to our home grown news platforms it reaches the subjects that BBC and others can’t be bothered or are not allowed to go. I watch it every day and am always shocked at the suffering and atrocities in the world that the powers that be think we shouldn’t know about. Even more patronising when often so much of a bulletin is wasted on celebrity ‘news’ as if we were all stupid airheads who enjoy such garbage.

Alistair must have eaten something special this morning, as he was especially rude and obnoxious on this episode, constantlly interrupting Rory with twaddling asides. Much impressed by his own wit, he seems to have forgotten that along with disagreeing agreeably, the corrollory is to agree productively. It's not necessary for you to mention, without being asked ,who you know, where you've been, or how long ago these tangentially relevant experiences took place.

A private public partnership with 22:57 the with the Brtish public.

I like Rory, but I think he is far too optimistic and soft-minded about the compatibility of Islam and the western values he so treasures. Quite amazed actually at the blatant, slap-dash labelling of 'far-right' onto someone who may basically have traditionally liberal and socially 'progressive' values, and yet is merely aware and intolerant of the evident intolerance significant parts of Islamic culture show in turn towards these values. I am struggling not to feel despair at the wilful ignorance of certain unpleasant facts about the level of intolerance, disrespect and disdain for assimilation that a significant proportion of Muslims in the UK openly display. I love the idea of tolerance and respect for all, but it has to work both ****ing ways or you are just spiralling yourself down into a measurably worse society. You really do sound silly calling people who simply care to protect the liberal freedoms of western societies 'far-right'. Wake up, Alistair.

Can Rory please speak up a bit? He's very quiet.

Love the pod. Don't agree with Rory's musing on Dicken's political allegiance tho'. According to his biographer, Jane Smiley, "we should not interpret him as the kind of left-liberal we know today - he was racist, imperialist, sometimes anti-semitic, a believer in harsh prison conditions and distrustful of trade unions."

If Populism is listening to key concerns of voters and acting on them. Than the opposite of that is living in ignorance of voters concerns and doing nothing to address them. Not hard to see why it might be a vote winner. 🤔 I literally thought it was the job of an MP's to act on concerns of constituents.

Alistair, can you stop interrupting yourself mid flow and getting sidetracked so we don't get the point you were originally trying to make which sounded interesting!!!

People want tomorrow to look faintly like yesterday. You guys are insulated from the change you want others to suck up.

Populism is all about hair! So true…. At least this means farage won’t be pm

What a poisonous pair, well suited to each other

just dont waste so much money would help, 20 billion a year, wasted, that's would help a bit

Declan Walsh is IRISH FFS...Rory

The antonym of populism is? Come on guys. Your knickers are showing, your Freudians are slipping.

Toneey Blehr 😅

Nope.

Rory has very nice hair. Perhaps he could grow it into Big Hair and become a demagogue.

Thank you for explaining (boring) Dutch politics to me. Although I don't think the Dutch despise other cultures. We don't mingle much, maybe. See for this the famous piece from Paul Scheffer on the multicultural drama (which he wrote in 2000).

What would happen if the 20% and 40% bands were raised 10% and a 45% band introduced at 100K and 50% at 250k? If you want growth, remove the barriers to trade with our neighbours. #RejoinEU

I love your podcast but please always be factual. The guy who attacked the children in Dublin is a foreign national who had been granted citizenship (sadly) . Also it has been reported that he had been in court at some stage and been confirmed to be deported but in this crazy country of ours you are just asked to make your own way out of our country .. And they always works😂😂😂

Having started to watch this more, I cam used that Campbell is so unbelievably bias towards anything the torys do and will not accept any good ideas and only smashed them, but rory gives a good account of both sides, shows why labour with campbell was so catastrophic for Britain