Hi love the episode! love the channel! but you miss credited puma blues en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puma_Blues just wanted to point that out. hope thats okay!
Without lingering on this too much, kudos on pinning the correction. It’s a surprisingly responsive and mature approach to viewer feedback and to one’s own mistakes.
If I remember right the Puma Blues artist did a 3 issue run on the original TMNT comics. Serious next level work ! I'd love to see a tropes video on that original series and the many talented artists who contributed after Eastman & Laird released the reins.
Yes you can separate the art from the artist; however, when the art is used as a platform for the artist to represent their ideals is when they become indistinguishable.
@@rickyp.martin3209 Well, Roman Polanski is a creep but you can't deny that he's a hell of a filmmaker and if we're going down the rabbit hole of creepy musicians there's an abundance of beloved musicians that were into underage girls. Using Polanski as an example, I don't have to agree with him as a person to appreciate his talents.
I don't have a problem with that; it's just the tone of Cerebus became so didactic and haranguing that the comic took a big downturn. If you can use your art as a platform in such a way that the art doesn't suffer, fine. I'm absolutely opposed to Sim's ideas about women and gay people but if I rid my shelves of artists who I find extremely problematic for their views there'd be no Lawrence, no Celine, no Pound or Bukowski...and as for comics I'd have to get rid of about 70% of my Crumb collection, the stuff Dave Cooper did with Gavin McInnes and every Mike Baron comic I own (so basically an almost complete run of Nexus and Badger). Which isn't going to happen.
@@belurso5179 after doing some research, around this time jeff smith was in good shape going to the gym and he had been known to threaten people physically from time to time. Not like a major thing. Just the average pencil neck geek that talked shit to him at a comic con. Jeff has even admitted to doing such. I think dave sims backed down when jeff smith said something to him personally, and then wantsd to work out and train for a boxing match later when they could be on more even footing. Also, fighting because you have a disagreement is not necessarily stupid. Sometimes that is how arguments are resolved, especially ones of the "your stupid, no u" nature. Should we settle our presidency with a fist fight, no. I dont think either of you had thought that through.
@@belurso5179 Men and women handle issues differently. Challenging someone to a boxing match isn't irrational, when he could simply attack the other gentlemen. You might not want to ever become a lawyer. :)
OH I KNOW DUDE! then goes on about how women are "thinkers" and that that´s irrational? ugh, I greatly admire his work but as a person kinda despise people like this
@Mourning Star Hold on. The question that's being answered is whether art can be separated from the artist that creates it; not "if they talk about politics in it then it bad." I think I see the point you're trying to make, but the only person you've successfully painted as unreasonable and politically close-minded is yourself by jumping to conclusions for the sake of your point.
@Mourning Star well I dislike things like that because it often feels forced. Its like it exists to push an agenda rather than to tell a story that has the authors bias because that's just how they are.
Mourning Star all artwork created by a person will reflect their politics. This just happens unintentionally when creating something. The difference is when it’s done purposefully and in such a manner it affects the story and quality of the art. However I believe it’s still possible for an artist to integrate their political ideals without alienating most people if they don’t shove it down the consumers throat
Mangaka put out a chapter a week and often that chapter is close if not a bit smaller than your average American comic book, they often go for years and Mangaka owns their work. In the end some mangas (a lot really) wind up several thousand pages long . Osamu Tezuka 'The God Of Manga' over all out put was 150,000.
@@stephennootens916 This is exactly why I wasn't impressed with Cerebus. My friend made me read all 300 issues, and it just struck me as some juvenile furry type stuff trying to be deep.
@Shaman X I'm not sure that you are right given the fact that when Mangaka stops working on a series like Black Lagoon's Rei Hiroe did they can't just replace him like the do with American comics and when Mangaka ends a series that's it. Another point Naoki Urasawa did not go to Kobunsha when he wanted to his story based on Astro Boy's The greatest robot on earth, he went to Tezuka Productions which was founded by Osamu Tezuka the creator of Astro Boy
It is an understatement but given how different the history and production/distribution methods of manga compared to north American comics the accomplishments of manga creators aren't really relevant to demonstrating what an accomplishment 300 issues is for an independent Canadian made comic. The dark days of the comics code authority alone caused damage to the comic book medium that still greatly affects sales and the very foundation of the fan base to this day. The same can not be said about Japan
One thing people often don't realize though, is that mangaka usually have a lot of uncredited assistants. Sim had Gerhard but I know for a fact that at least a few mangaka have multiple assistants who do a lot of the finish work, and those artists never get their names in the work.
If he took LSD "for a week", it's probably not the only thing he took in those days. Substance abuse could have been a symptom of other mental issues and not just the other way around.
@@SuperFunkmachineSim wrote an essay in one issue in the late 80s talking about how he had recently quit smoking pot after years of smoking it constantly. I don't recall much else about it other than the potheads at my high school got a kick out of reading about how he'd been stoned the whole time he'd been creating Cerebus.
As a young girl in the 90's, I bought the Church And State phonebooks and really loved them. I looked forward to reading the rest of the story because it seemed so vast and so unique... And then the "female void" rant happened and I lost interest. It's hard to love something that openly hates you. I wish Dave Sim was better at separating himself from his art.
Can the art be separated from the artist? Absolutely. Does this apply to Cerebus? Absolutely not. Sim's personality and evolving philosophies were an integral part of the overall experience. For nearly 30 years, Sim's entire existence was dedicated to this book, it became an autobiographical mirror looking back at itself. I think Cerebus can be seen as a triumphant work of commitment and creative exploration... But also as a warning to us all, that when you become so entwined with a work for so long, all the bones, fears and prejudice in the closet are gonna get dragged out, and it's not all pretty too look at. But that's life, I guess...
@@hollyc5417 I agree. However, there is the need to clarify the source of content within said art. I've done plenty of jobs where the imagery is executed by myself, but the content itself is dictated by the client. While it is possible to gain insight into the artist through study of the process alone, it will always speak more about the client. So, to be clear, we both mean art that is 100% the product of the creator. With this said... Totally agree with you.
A lot of great well known artists were down right jerks and had some very wrong ideas. The poet ee cummings was a notorious Nazi sympathizer. Robert Frost, who wrote "Two paths diverge in the woods," has a kind grandfatherly face but was horribly cruel and abusive. The painter Picasso was a beast to his wife. The writer Hemingway's over macho persona also brought about misogyny in his world view. This is just a few examples. Still their works are still studied and admired.
No matter how close the art is to the artist, it can ALWAYS be separate. Im speaking from legit personal experience. There’s songs I wrote back in high school that I felt at the time but make me cringe to this day when I stumble across them.
The funniest thing about Sim to me is that he actually circulated a digital petition that said "Dave Sim is not misogynist" around to his friends, family, and the industry, and then threw a tantrum and quite literally went "YOU'RE NOT MY FRIEND ANYMORE" to anyone who refused to sign it. It's hilarious reading the soft-spoken Chester Brown clarify an old thank you to Sim in updated notes along the lines of "I still think of Dave Sim as my friend, but because I couldn't in good conscience sign his petition - as I do think he's a misogynist - he said he hates me and no longer considers me a friend." I think this was before the news broke that Sim groomed a girl. I don't know if Brown still considers Sim a friend today, haha.
By “news broke” do you mean the letter he wrote to the public YEARs ago, when twitter heard he may get a job, took snippets from his own letter to frame it in the light they wanted? In order to enflame the crowd? Before anyone attacks me personally, instead of arguing facts, and claims I’m defending him, if stating facts, good and true, is defending well then the definitions changed.
@@HuhWhatHuhwhatHuhYou failed to refute the obvious fact that HE GROOMED A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL FOR YEARS. I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make
@@LongSinceDead1 easy. I’m a third party with zero knowledge of any of this. When you claim he groomed someone, the burden of proof is on you. What did he do? I do not know. If you say he groomed a child then I have no clue what occurred. Did he help a child with their personal hygiene? Did he fuck a child? You’d have to tell me. But rather than do that, you simply stated the same thing a second time. The guy up top was calling out that mentality.
Drab Bard it usually is. How many of these creeps rant and rave about “snowflakes”, and “entitled SJW’s” immediately before bitching about how they’re being attacked because the world doesn’t exclusively cater to them anymore?
"Funny" how it's almost biographical, Cerebus almost sounding like a parody of an MRA/MGTOW type, but then the author's philosophy also being close to that. Kind of as if it was eventually found out that Robert Bloch had a "Bloch's motel," and lived under the weird delusion that a mannikin dressed as his aunt was alive and interacted with him...
Male feminists are self projective, blames Mgtow and Mra for all of the sins they done themselves. When an author pokes fun at ideals but then repeats them, its pretty ironic.
For me Cerebus the character was a parody of the type nowadays called MRA, but the author somehow changed in such a way that the same character became a true representation of him. Quite incredible when you think about it.
Sometimes I can separate artist from work, but other times it's much harder. I mean, the Cosby show is pretty painful to even think about now. But someone like HP Lovecraft who has been dead for a long time and he aint getting any money from anything I read/watch of his work then it's a bit easier to do that.
I agree. I can separate artist from art but I am not about to monetarily support someone who I deem as a disgusting person. Overall if it involves child grooming.
Very well organized and articulated presentation of a very controversial and self-indulgent creator and his creation that became a slave to his own indulgences.
I remember reading Bone when I was in the 3rd grade. When I was 15 and walking around the library I found the books on the "Banned Books" cart and the Librarian let me check one out. I then remembered how great it was and how much I loved it.
Cripes. I thought I knew all the darker elements to this but the grooming was a horrifying surprise. Damn, I’m going to go buy Bone again to wash my head out and support Jeff Smith.
Jason Garrett not to defend Sim, but I honestly think “grooming” is a reach. That implies intentional manipulation. Sim seems more like an emotionally immature guy who genuinely thought it was normal. Again, not defending his actions but there’s a difference between crazy and evil.
@Al X. Andra Really? There are millions of emotionally immature 30-somethings. They're the ones who get outraged every time there's a diverse character in comics or incite riots over szechuan sauce. They suck but they mostly aren't evil, just immature. We see it all the time.
@Al X. Andra I'm not comparing them in their acts, just mentioning that emotional maturity is not determined by age. Sim is a smart guy but really immature from what I can tell. The reason emotional maturity is relevant is that it seems like Sim thought he was in a real relationship with this girl.
@Al X. Andra I didn't even know about the John K. thing until I read this. Doesn't surprise me, though. From all reports (even Billy West who he was pretty close with from Ren and Stimpy) he was a pretty horrible person.
In the case of Cerebus, it's a lot harder to separate the art from the artist, because Sim put his viewpoints directly in the text. The art is the artist's viewpoint.
@@Camoedine that is false. Data shows that acceptance does not change suicide rates that much. Mirrors cause Trans people to be depression, nice try though science denier
When I was a young teen a White Nationalist group tried to recruit me. Largely, Ceberus was how they got me to engage at all. An FTP server with hi-res scans of a cool indie comic parodying the Conan stuff I was actively devouring at the time? I was so there. It can't be understated the profound effect a creator you really enjoy suddenly espousing extremist rhetoric can have on a young reader. And that's when the people grooming me for their hate group sprung THEIR extremist rhetoric on me. Too socially awkward to point out how uncomfortable I was (this is definitely something people like this of any political affiliation look for and prey upon) and reading ideas I'd never heard from the creator of my New Big Thing lead to a lot of stuff I now look back on in shame as an adult. I still think there are fantastic parts of Cerebus, High Society should basically be required reading for anyone wanting a comprehensive indie reading experience. I also think that potential fans ONLY buying trades that are genuinely good and not long, rambling political essays of a dubious nature sends a much louder message than fully excising this admittedly talented creator ever could. Sorry for the wall of text, I watched your video early enough you might actually see my comment and thought you might find it interesting. Love your vids!
I've read Cerebus for years and once a year every year after it ended and nothing in his work stands out as White Nationalists. The man did after all convert to both Islam and Judaism. Which begs the question, in complete seriousness, are there Muslim and Jewish white Nationalists?
@Al X. Andra Well, you're not generalizing if you're talking about the religions as a concept. If you were talking about the believers, that would be generalizing. Also, I'd throw Christianity in the backwards pile too, easy.
@Al X. Andra Every religion has extremist fundamentalist strains that emphasize xenophobia, misogyny, and violence, whether it's Abrahamic, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.
@Al X. Andra we've had very different experiences with tumblr, I've found people calling out pretty much every religion and country for their backwards practices, including Asian countries like Japan and Korea. I have my issues with tumblr's racial politics, but I wouldn't call that one of them. I guess it's such a big community that we've seen different groups
I started reading Cerebus in the early 90s, and *loved* it. I loved the satire and parody of the comic heroes and fantasy characters I followed. It was snarky and irreverent. Then Sim started delving into philosophy and politics. At first I read them because I found the topics "challenging". Somehow I was convinced that reading Sim was akin to watching political talk shows of "the other side" that learning about his philosophy would enlighten me into how other people think. Eventually it got to the point that I simply could not separate the artist from the art because the art was nothing more than a platform for him to spew his misogyny. I kept the collected trades that I had amassed by that point, but neglected going further. A few years later a friend of mine convinced me to buy the missing volumes and "finish the story". I did and like you discuss, I found them uneven - some good - some dreadful - all of them showing Sim as the chauvinist he is. Later, I had married a fellow comics nerd and she spent weeks pouring through my trade paper backs. She started on Cerebus and didn't even make it half way through because she was so disgusted by Sims misogyny that she could *not* separate the art from the artist. I have no desire to re-read them, so they sit on a shelf collecting dust.
I’d day you should sell those comics now and get something of value out of them, but you’re all but guaranteed to get them for less than what they were originally worth.
I think Dave Sim true legacy is ultimately showing everything great about creator own comics, and everything bad about creator own comics. While I respect his legacy when a comic only has one set of eyes looking over it, a comic like this can become self indulgent and an outlet for the creators own personal issues. In many ways I've seen this story in some way happen in webcomics in some form for years. It's sad but I hope people can learn from it and maybe take better care of themselves.
You nailed it. Early Sim used his platform to explore bold and thoughtful storylines with innovative artwork. Later Sim became an echo chamber of his own toxic mind.
Cerebus used to be known as the book both you and your girlfriend would read, so Sim really shot himself in the foot with his Victor Davis “Feminine Void” essay.
@@zeframmann1641 huh ? what ?... Can you quote Jordan Peterson sayin that Women are vain or leeches ?... Or are you just using Peterson as a meme ? "I don't like that guy, so he must be exactly like this other guy I don't like"...
Thank you for this thoughtful video. I was a massive Cerebus fan from the early 90s when I discovered the books. I saw things getting a bit out of hand but it wasn't until rather late I found his problematic interviews (internet being in its infancy). The thing that struck me is that Jaka's story is still one of the most insightful stories from a female perspective I've ever read. Being stick between the adorable man-child Rick, forced to pick up the slack and being belittled by his friend, forced to dance for the Incel bar keeper, keeping up appearances to keep him happy so they won't be homeless. And finally having to take the difficult decision not to have a child in this situation. Astoria was also an awesome character, very complex. I think Sim has demons, and they are fighting in his pages. For all his anti-feminist rants, he created som of the most real female characters, and shone a spotlight on the way men idealise and then punish women for not living up to those ideals.
@woooudo Well look at that. I didn't know they could make talking thesauruses these days. Be honest, how long did you spend on dictionary.com to work out some of those words? Certainly longer than you've ever spent talking to a woman.
MariaVosa I don’t think he did it on purpose- I think it’s because he’s a genuinely talented writer, but he projects those demons into his work. Despite his fervent hatred for people not like him, and his persecution complex, he couldn’t help but to flesh out even his female leads, and with friends like these... well, people like him (and the lovely piece of work who replied to you) tend to veer HARD into self parody almost immediately.
woooudo people like you have no idea how pathetic you actually sound. You’re defensive right off the bat the moment someone says something that you don’t agree with. Again, it’s absolutely pathetic. You can’t be an adult and sit down to have an actual, productive conversation because you’re ready to rip someone open off the bat. It shows how underdeveloped your critical thinking skills, and social skills, actually are. Grow the fuck up and realize that not everyone is going to like you, and not everyone is going to have the same opinion. If you’re going to talk about shit like this, try to be fucking civil before you open your mouth
woooudo buddy...you sound like you’ve got a lot of conspiracy theories shoved up your ass. Humiliation may be your thing, guised as being superior, but I’m not here to do that. I’m not evil, I’m not part of a “world-wide death cult.” I don’t wish anyone dead, even you, as hard as it is to believe. I’m not responsible for thought processes and your feelings because I’m a woman. A lot of women don’t wish to see men burned. You sound like you’re overly paranoid about everything, and it’s concerning. The world isn’t out to get you. And not everyone that disagrees with you is immature. I don’t even think you’re processing anything anyone is saying, which is annoying, and I know I’m not getting anywhere. You’re going to copy and paste the same response as I got. Please, get some help, not everyone is out to get you. There actual decent people out there
I've been eating magic mushrooms every day for the last couple weeks... I still think women are cool beans. 👍 So I don't think it's the drugs that make people shitty, it's the ideals they choose to believe in that do.
Mushrooms definitely don't make you misogynist or homophobic lol. That said I guess drug use may have reduced his willingness to stay quiet about his bigoted views.
I made this one of my reading goals about 15 years ago without knowing the full context of Sim's history. There were constant red flags and I'm sure there was a sunk cost motivation on my part that led me to finish. The red flags turned into outright preaching a little over half-way through the run and it very much becomes more of a chore getting to that ending. One thing not really touched on in this video is the meta-commentary about the comics industry itself that plays heavily in the first half of the run after Sim's rise to fame. It's a really weird time capsule of the era as a result, but holy hell- the anti-feminist war drum would probably give me an aneursym if I tried to reread this.
@@Clay3613 haven't watched the Spoony video but he has at least two episodes where he revisits mistakes people pointed out in his previous videos from slip of the tongue, bad pronunciation, and minor fact checking.
I knew a guy in our town who got some bad LSD in the 70s. He was reduced to a child-like state, just roaming up and down the road day after day with a rather blank grin most of the time. It only takes one bad batch of neuroactive substances to fry your cortex.
@@IFLFiction It was a bad batch of the stuff. Probably adulterated, or was synthesized wrong so it wasn't even the proper chemical. 'Quality control' isn't exactly a thing overseen by the FDA with illegal substances.
You have tackled an incredibly complex and difficult character and his work WONDERFULLY. I agree - High Society through Church & State were his peak. I tried to get through the series but those long text chapters forced me away. I really enjoy your thoughtful and intelligent breakdowns and analysis with every new video.
i just can't get past the fact that for how seriously the story is taking itself, cerebus is still a talking animal in a world where everyone else is human
@Jhonny Auditore Ikr ._. and then any way you respond back to that you'll look bad, because it eithet seems lile you are a sjw (a bad one i guess) or you are anti sjw and it is a can of worms if i ever saw one
@gamewizard I I personally don't agrer with anyone that generalizes entire groups, be it gender or sexuality, saying things like "If people can choose gender everyone would be male" or saying things like "males can only think rational and girls cannot" are just wrong on a biological standpoint. Females aren't more emotional and don't feel more emotions than men, women are simply raised to express more and fake more and no one can deny that after they actually do research, just ad how men tend to not expresd more emotions while they DO have them, because they'll get bullied by their peers. and all of this depends on culture too, where I live men can freely cry even in public or TV while if a woman cried it tends to be looked down upon. That's just my opinion though, people and idiots alike can think of subjective things as objective truth all they want :/ The women that dispise men are just as idiotic as the men who dispise all women, all that kind of stupidity and unrational behaviour gets us nowhere and just brews a bigger divide besides societies stereotypes. For all I care it makes his ideology garbage because he excluses more than half the population on earth. Again imo.
@gamewizard I It was proven in small studies with untrustworthy numbers of subjects, once they began doing bigger studies on groups of more than 5000 people there was proof that the male and female sex experience emotions the same, again it just lies in expression of those emotions where women generaly have a bit higher percentage because of nurture. In nature there isn't a difference, I'm pretty sure if we lived in a society where all genders were treated the same therr wouldn't even be a debate like this but alas. I think a lot of people's vieuws on women are ruined by like... the over sensitive emotional stereotypes that sadly do exist. But I don't know, I live in europe and I've not had the luxury of meeting one of them, I solely know them from american media.
Thanks for covering this- my major comic-book buying era was between 1983 and 1995, with spurts in the early 2000s and 2000/teens. The comics shops that I frequented always had a good selection of Cerebus books, and I was always curious about them. However, I never knew anyone who was into him, but everyone seemed to agree that they were probably genius without having read them themselves. So now, in my mid-40’s, I finally get to find out what all the fuss was about! Thanks for sharing yet another in-depth, well-researched look at a “less-popular-than-...” comic that I’ve always wondered about. Thank you- I subscribed to your channel a few months ago, and have really appreciated the hard work that you put into your work. Edit- I forgot to mention (not that it matters, but my local comics shop (here in Berlin, CT) was actually called Aardvark Books- it’s sadly been gone since the early-80’s, but that was a magical place back in the day!
I lived through that history so have to say good research overall. One thing missed. Jeff Smith VS Dave Sim. What lead to the proposed "boxing match" was a comment Jeff made in an interview. He was relaying a story about dinner with his wife and Sim. In the interview, Jeff said Sim made some misogynistic comment that offended Jeff's wife and, according to Jeff, he threatened to "kick Dave ass" and that stopped that line of conversation. That interview rubbed Dave the wrong way and that's why he challenged him to a boxing match. If the dispute in question is "who can kick who's ass" a boxing match would be a good way to settle it.
Well, a he-man woman hater would resort to the "manly art of self-defense" to resolve disputes with other men. Sexists have rigid gender roles and codes of honor like Klingons.
@@darlalathan6143 "According to Jeff himself, he made a person shut up by threatening him with physical violence. Later, while telling the story publicly, Jeff mocked that person's cowardice. What does all that say about Jeff?" And indeed, if we accept that Jeff did this, and Jeff was even at the time of the supposed incident well built anyway and visiting the gym a couple of times a week, then Jeff's response to someone saying something he didn't like was to offer to take someone less fit, less strong than himself outside and deck them. And so feminists say that that sort of bullying is something to be cheered on? Bottom line - Jeff Smith is either a liar or a bully, depending on whether Dave is telling the truth or Jeff is. Perfect poster child for feminism.
@@darlalathan6143 that's an excerpt from a comment board in 2017. Apparently jeff liked to lift weights and threaten people smaller than him. Maybe dave sims backed down upon the first physical threat and then wanted to have his boxing match on equal footing by training for it and working out? Seems plausiblw.
As a teenager I went to a convention to get my copy of church and state signed. It was the early 90s and in my excitement I insulted Dave Sim. My friends would spend years taunting me over it. I sort of flat out asked “When is Cerberus going to do something?” At the time I think he was just staying in the bar and felt sort of slow after high society and church and state. Now after this video, I don’t feel so bad anymore.
"some mangas have reached a similar lenght"... Hajime no ippo has been published since the 90's by the same author (plus assitants), Kochikame was published for over 40 years, Golgo 13 have been published for almost over 50 years, all technically by the same author. So yeah i believe japan takes this one home too.
That part really made me go "huh?". Yes, some mangas have "reached similar lenght". Some have doubled it, some have tripled it. Why not just give those mangakas the credit, they are the quite literally killing themselves over their art.
@@opicikostra3446 Yeah, i mean i get if you don't like manga or whatever. But you have to give credit where credit is due, is not like it dimishes Sim's accomplishments
I think my only exposure to Cerebus was a crossover in the early issues of the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and I didn't think much of the character (he was loud and rude).
Credit where it is due: The issue of Spawn that Sim wrote (and MacFarlane illustrated) was lit. I felt so impressed that became a semi-regular Cerebus reader. It's still possibly my favroite single issue of an Image comic to this day.
Stabbity Joe more I was a dumb kid and didn’t noticed the political statements when I was a kid and know I realized a lot of the comics I liked are actually critical of my politics and I don’t like it (seriously I had an argument with someone who didn’t realize the X-Men were a metaphor for minority issues)
Stabbity Joe I’m not saying that all. I’m saying that I had an argument with a guy who said that the X-Men weren’t political and I had to explain to him that they were a metaphor for minority issues and have been since pretty much their inception and he wouldn’t believe me
lmao the only reason i thought you were saying you were anti minority was cuz you said that you didnt agree with comic politics and then followed it up with how xmen is about minority struggles.
One of the most controversial and important artist of the XX century, where sanity, insanity and technique converge to create. Thank you very much for your hard work.
I first heard of Cerebus in the early 90's from YTV's comic news segment with PJ "Fresh" Phil, where the visuals were clearly from the "Guys" arc. Fast forward to university, and I decided to do an analysis of his career (this was when Cerebus was almost finished) and did a couple other essays in the same vein with Alan Moore, Frank Miller, & Erik Larsen. I pretty much hit a lot of the same conclusions as Chris did, but I was much more appreciative of Sim's evolution over the course of the first twenty four issues. One interesting way of delving into the train-wreck that is Sim's evolution as a writer is to look at actual issues rather than the phone books and reading the editorials and letter columns, and how they shift as the tone of the book shifted. The latter years showcase a desolate circlejerk with a few disgruntled outcasts interacting with the equally outcast Sim.
Not always but that is when an artist throws their art to be as seperate as possible and puts effort to it. It is hard to do but possible. This is rare in media though because the phrase "write what you know" is commonly used.
@@cameoshadowness7757 I meant about this dude in particular. There are times when an author is a somewhat terrible person but their art is somehow okay and has an okay message.
There's actually dozens and dozens of manga authors who have surpassed it in terms of sheer volume or continuous story. Running for 300+ chapters with a single author is more the norm than the exception in manga.
@@INTCUWUSIUA i don't know the total page count of jojo right now, mostly because i don't care THAT much. but it HAS run for over 30 years and like 940 chapters, in which the chapters for most of part 7 and all of part 8 are almost double the usual length
An important detail is that early Sim and Cerebus came across the opposite of anti-feminist or homophobic. His best realized characters were women, he was perceptive and empathetic about women’s experiences, and Sim was outspokenly angry about sexual harassment and coercion of female creators in the publishing industry. His depictions of young and old Oscar Wilde (different characters, confusingly) were dignified and respectful. That’s why issue 186 was such a shock, let alone the ever more reactionary slide that followed. Dave Sim was probably another bright, idealistic, and driven young mind that couldn’t cope with being challenged and “betrayed” by reality. For example in his later screeds he said feminism was fatally discredited by Margaret Thatcher’s corporatist warmongering, proving women were also terrible (no possible concept that a woman would have to act like Thatcher to achieve power in a male dominated culture.) He would hardly be unique in this regard; think of the disillusioned 60s radicals who became conservative white supremacists after utopia wasn’t partied into existence. Some good things about Dave Sim: he heavily promoted other independent artists’ work like Flaming Carrot, Eightball, Bone, and Strangers In Paradise. And his lettering technique for sounds and dialogue became a narrative art unto themselves.
Wow, that was super interesting and educational. I’ve just been vaguely aware that Cerebus was out there, artistically interesting but with some kind of problem attached. Your work is improving, great disposition, tone and cutting. (As opposed to your subject this time ha ha.) I am particularly struck by how the second marriage plotline shows something so far from the authors own professed views. The protagonist is an asshat and his relationships destruct because of his own actions and attitudes: art imitates life. But is this some part of Sims creative head knowing about his problems and displaying them? Or is he so oblivious that he thinks that his protagonist is the victimized hero in these stories?
One thing to talk about when talking about Sim's art style as well that I think you missed is his lettering. He was the best in the business in that regard, as well as utilizing her styles to experiment with negative space, panel structure, and overall design. I also think it is am important question to talk about separating the art from the artist - which can be done in many cases - it becomes extremely difficult in the case of Sim who interjects his stories with his own beliefs and even with himself as a character in the Cerebus book - the moment you make the art about yourself you become intertwined in a way that I believe makes it near impossible to separate the two.
My ex roommate Jess, in the early 2000s told me Sim asked for her "personal email" and then when he saw it was connected to a university account, seemed annoyed and said "so, can anyone else log in to this?" and changed his entire tone.
One thing that goes unmentioned in this video that fascinated me a bit about Cerebus Comics; for a long time Sims simply printed fanmail unedited at the back of this comic book, a bit like a fanzine would. It's a bit interesting to read, as if someone put to text all the random call ins a talk show in nowhere would have in the late 70s and into the 80s. It was interesting to read that stuff but I also have to admit it was a bit of a flaw as often times the comic stories which I've come to expect being 23 pages long became more like 14 pages long and more space was dedicated to the letters.
I used to have an almost complete Cerebus run from somewhere in single digits to approaching issue 200. I loved Cerebus for years but read the later issues with an increasing feeling of disquiet. I felt that Sim was latterly cutting corners artistically. He became fond of drawing one image of the head of a character, (normally Cerebus), photocopying it repeatedly and laying it out as panels with the only thing changing being the speech balloons into which he inserted his polemic. This was then abandoned to be replaced by extensive use of dense text blocks with no art bar, possibly, an illuminated initial character. It seemed lazy. However, that wasn't what killed Cerebus for me. I'm by no means a rabid feminist. But the themes of the stories and Sim's editorials became more and more abhorrent to me. I just felt that I couldn't support Sim with my time and money. Eventually I cancelled it from my pull list and took my whole collection into my local comic shop for credit. I told the owner why; he asked if I had ever met Dave Sim. I said no; the look that he gave me spoke volumes. I never had any regrets cutting my ties with Cerebus.
I think you are underselling the possible Schizophrenia and mental health issues. The idea he spent 14 hours a day living in the world of Cerebus, makes me think he really was living it a world of his creation.
There's certain writers whose hatefulness is so spiteful that I just can't enjoy their work any more, even when that work doesn't itself feel hateful. Orson Scott Card, Larry Niven, Scott Adams, and Frank Miller come most immediately to mind. The problem occurs because it changes the nature of the emotional connection to the work in question; people don't pay large sums of money for a John Wayne Gacy painting because they enjoy portraits of clowns.
If you read some of the early Homecoming books by Card it’s interesting how he overtly includes a gay character among other he main cast and yet seems to treat him very decently and even compassionately despite his public stance on homosexuality. At one point the character reveals that being gay has been discovered to be caused by genetics (this is placed far in the future) but it’s not treated as something that is innately wrong.
@@DrewLSsix Wow, I'm glad to see someone else aware of Homecoming. I was a huge OSC fan back in the day, and when his beliefs came to my attention I absolutely could not reconcile them with what he wrote in Homecoming. I don't know if it was editorial influence or if his views just changed that drastically, but you really couldn't tell what an asshole he is from his books. At least his older books, I haven't read anything by him in years.
@@DrewLSsix There's an odd trend among some authors to include much more socially progressive ideas in their fiction than they will accept themselves in real life. There's also the point that, like Dave Sims, some authors become more twisted by their fixations as they age. They may turn completely against something they found tolerable in an earlier period.
It's funny with nowadays and cancel culture. I ALWAYS separated the people from their work. I've done this with music, movies, and TV. Just because you endorse a person's art does not mean you endorse their bad behavior or dumb thoughts. At the same time, I won't go out my way to defend them or excuse when they do crap work.
@@bluedotdinosaur obligatory JK Rowling mention But in all seriousness - This ties a lot into death of the author. Not a theory I'd ascribe to wholesale but it's true that art is defined by interpretation, not intent. I'd also make some mentions as to how it's common in the modern day for people to "misjudge" someone else's morals. Not anyone you mentioned fits this category, but for example, there was a group of feminist critics who called the MK11 decision for their female characters "benevolent sexism"; they were immediately labeled Nazis by groups of targeted harassers, and many still believe the women to be sexist for, well, calling out sexism. Maybe a blunt example but, stuff like that also factors into how we have to view the issue of art versus its creators - we may not actually know whether or not they're that way, any given creator could be better or worse than we understand them to be due to our own biases. And besides. I don't like the very modern idea of "if they're bad in one way we must completely ostracize them forever". It's always seemed petty and spiteful to me. I can't approve of the behavior, as it's unproductive and solves nothing; education and redemption are better solutions than violence and rejection, IMO.
As someone who stumbled across the last few issues of Cerebus, thanks. I had wondered if maybe I’d missed out on something truly profound...think I’m OK with it now.
I mean, it's definitely hard to recommend, but for what it's worth, the first four books are fantastic and unlike anything you've ever read - and you can probably get for next to nothing. But I would say definitely stop after the fourth book, because it's all a big, sad letdown after that.
Any personal issues aside, the closest recent comparison to what went wrong on Cerebus is Tom King's Batman. Like Cerebus, it started out great, but at some point the author became too self-absorbed and too pretentious, and he lost sight of the larger story. Sometimes large stories can devour writers, and it happened in these two cases.
When I first heard about Sim I thought people were unfairly attacking him, as I had no knowledge of him and his worldview. The reason I jumped to this conclusion was that many people online seem to attack creators for the most irrational reasons. Then I read Sim's Wiki page... Holy shit, that guy's fucking disgusting. He has completely lost his mind, and not in the fun way. He's genuinely sexist, to the point his religious beliefs say women are the root of all evil - or some bullshit along those lines.
@@LanceAnderson77 "Behind this...lies the Greater Void, the Omnivorous Engine which drives every... institutionalised waste of human time and energy, which drives, in point of fact, our entire degraded society. The wife and kids."
Holy shit Currently i work in a comic store shop and some dude came asking for this comic and i didnt knew it existed until then, but i really wanted to investigate about it and this video suddenly appeared in my recomendations Thx fam
New to your channel, but loving it so far! This episode reminds me of self-publishing a few comics backs in the mid to late 1990s, during which time I mailed out copies to a few independent creators and other "idols" at the time. I got a few letters back but the most thoughtful came from Dave Sim, who offered some helpful criticism and other suggestions. Never met him in person but always appreciated it. Side note: I was unaware at the time of Sim's...er..."indifference" towards women, and learned something about my own book in the process: I had basically all male characters in my books (not intentional), and he was the only critic who didn't seem to notice.
I remember being absolutely gripped by High Society and Church and State 1 and 2. They were magnificent works, and probably the most intellectually stimulating comics I read until Transmetropolitan and Watchmen. I was actually deeply surprised and frankly heartbroken when I read about his misogenistic rant. I didn't see any misogeny in the writing of Church and State. A misogenistic character, to be sure (an out-and-out rapist, even), but the comic itself made it unequivocal that this was a fundamentally flawed character doing an evil, unforgivable thing, which he would ultimately pay for. When I think of Sim, that is the Sim I try to think of. I admit, it is not always easy.
The first third of Cerebus is worth reading. But I believe you need to consider the changes in Cerebus in the context of their times. Sim always was ambitious, but I think this is a case where his ambition destroyed what was good about his work. Remember, in the 80s we had Will Eisner publishing graphic novels to great acclaim, Art Spiegelman's Maus getting reviewed in the New York, and the beginnings of the careers of Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman. It was also the heyday of Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck lawsuit with Marvel, and Jack Kirby's battle over the rights for his creations. Go reread all the letter columns in Cerebus and you will find Dave discussing this with fans. Dave became more and more ambitious, and in the process of that lost much of the humor that people loved about the book. If anything, the latter years of Cerebus shows that what Sim needed was a good editor
I know this doesn’t have anything to do with the actual video, but I always find myself slightly distracted by how much Chris looks like a young Vic Reeves. Seriously, it’s eerie...
Excellent review. And I would agree with most of your assessment of it. My understanding on the boxing match was it came at the time when he was researching Hemingway. I believe this is where he fell in love with the idea of a writer as a "man's man", drinker, smoker, knuckle fighter, adventurer, chauvinist, and "truthsayer". The material eventually showed up in Form & Void but he writes at length on how long it took him to research Hemingway and Fitzgerald and how their views and their lives fit into his own philosophies.
@Wesley Winston well, true but the substance of his criticism was on his disdain for hemingway's writing style and Sim's suspicion of hemingway as a homosexual or bisexual and basically a fraud. His initial obsession was because he was fascinated with the ideas embodied in the myth of hemingway and was dismayed when began an in-depth examination of the man's life. I think some of it was transference from his deep dislike of hemingway's wife. Sims by this time had lost it pretty well down the hole of his beliefs.
Dave Sim is a complicated guy that encapsulates both the good and the bad of complete artistic control and distribution. On the one hand, he didn't have to tailor his message to anyone and was allowed to develop the story in any way he wanted as long as he was able to sell it. On the other hand, he just turned into an angry youtube commenter with an increasingly developed artistic ability.
Never knew about this. I had the early issues, and am now super glad I sold them in 1986 (they paid for a 35mm Nikon). The AV Club article shows him to be a narcissistic jerk, and the story involving the young girl is super creepy.
Every once in a while the you tube gods throw you a bone and today they gave me comic tropes; I’ve been watching this channel 2 hours straight and I’ve loved all of them; thank you
Dave Sim is, I suspect, mentally ill. He sounds like a high functioning schizophrenic, and this seems to play out in his writing, which gets more incoherent in the latter half. He makes me sad. Ideally, he should be read until the end of Church and State, and one should read no further.
as a fulltime freelance artist: no, you can not separate the artist from the art; even if there is not dialogue in the art, you can tell what an artist enjoys drawing and viewing by their forms and anatomy and what they add more detail, as well as what they are apathetic towards and even dislike from what they avoid drawing or lack detail in drawing. for example, an artist could lovingly render a full-course meal onto a table, set and presented in an appealing manner that makes your mouth water, or they could give everyone a bowl of soup because they dont care to draw food in that level of detail or dont have an appreciation for culinary arts! little aspects like that can tell a lot, and in having the framing (and platform) of running a large-scale comic that chooses to speak on politics, governing bodies, and the state of the perceived universe, dave poured himself into his work through its writing until it became nothing more than his monthly soapbox with drawings in it; an extreme and blatant example of art being inseparable from the artist
The boxing match is so old school! I remember my gym teacher and my dad talking about doing that...even in old Archie comics, Archie and Reggie figures that a simple boxing match can decide who dates who :P
I would NOT recommend starting at High Society. Start at the beginning with the understanding the tone cadence and delivery will change throughout the course of the entire comic. Additionally, the first 25 issues set up characters, geography and circumstances that will be referred back to for the remainder of the run. It may be light parody, but it's also very clever & well written within it's class/genre. Do NOT skip it and enjoy it for what it is.
The turns the series took makes me wonder: How pissed were the subscribers when the story started focusing on Oscar Wilde and when they got issues with mostly text?
A really good review. You tried to show both sides, and I would agree the best stuff is pretty much over by the end of Church and State. I tried to read all of them, but the heavy-handed text stuff was a huge drag. I would credit Dave as foreseeing the entire MGTOW movement. I also think you can watch his descent into if not pure madness then at least obsessiveness about gender to the point that he could only see one position unwilling to acknowledge the possibility of any argument that was not in complete alignment with his own as being valid. In terms of the history of the medium, he was a supremely important early pioneer of the independent press.
Having read and been challenged by Dave Sim (spending the vast majority of the time raging against him then being sucked back in) I have much more trouble defining my relationship with artists like Orson Scott Card whose politics are largely absent from his work. I consider the journey I took with Sim important in my development despite ultimately rejecting a lot if not all of his ideals
This decline is almost the same as Hunter x Hunter Chimera arc. Suddenly his characters and the world he built were dying in horrendous ways at the hands of chimera ants... It was a dark arc
And because of his conversion to Islam as well. At that time things began to get strange. But even so Cerebus is one of the best comic ever made. It's very deep and poetic.
It goes a lot deeper than that I think. I love Sim's work, but the guy has issues that go back to his childhood. From his writings about his family life it would seem he had two barely functioning alcoholic parents. He kind of half absolves his father because he continued to work and provide for the family, but blames his mother for being pretty worthless. Definitely effected his relationships with women. Also I would say his relationship with substance abuse as well. LSD thing is just the tip of the iceberg. He spent most of 1976-1986 baked all the time. Love the guy's creative output though.
John Hensley Yes. Clearly a lot of problems in childhood and drugs latter. in fact, persona and work like his is very common in literature, for example. In the comic book industry that is unusual.
@@pedrot.9569 It was an epic story alright. The only thing I think that got close to it was Fables but that started getting shaky after 100 issues. Maybe Hellblazer but there was too little linear character development with John Constantine.
Stephen Crane Yes, some like that. Cerebus turns, in High Society, some thing very close to a beatnik romance. That's the thing about Cerebus, on the start is full of ingenuity and slowly turns a deep depressive story. To me this elements is the beauty of Cerebus [Without the anti-feminism shit].
In fairness, a lot of the drop in monthly sales was due to it becoming the original "wait for the trade" book. By the mid 90's almost no one bought the monthlies because everyone interested was buying the phonebooks.
If you bother to read the notes (Dave Sims claimed he got the idea from Alan Moore's "From Hell") in the last chapters of "Cerebus", you will end up taking a glimpse in a very, very, very twisted psyche. This is quite unnerving. The man shows himself as full of hate and grudges. He trashes Hemingway and Hemingway's wife, trashes his OWN PARENTS (and at the same time acknowledges their concern and love towards him, but still trashes them), trashes Picasso because he claims he is easy to copy. Oh, man, no wonder he ended up in a hospital. This guy is sick, just sick.
The argument that fans abandoned the title after the "controversial" issues in Reads seems solid until the grander picture is taken into account. I've heard the argument that the drop in circulation numbers supports this several times. However, the wider comic book industry entered a collapse at the same time, with all comics suffering huge drops in circulation, with Cerebus being no different. Also, the success of the "phonebooks" was to blame as well: why buy all the issues separately when you know a cheaper collection will follow eventually? Dave Sim pretty much invented the trade paperback, but also killed his own sales of individual issues.
That piece of writing where Dave says he 'used to be' a feminist 'when there was a level playing field' is the exact same shit that so many comicsgaters and other shitty anti-feminists are peddling to this day. Men just eternally have this idea that women used to want equality and now they've crossed a line because of [insert arbitrary current event] and they want more (when we don't even truly have equality yet). Any step forward for women's rights scares these shitheels because they're not used to not being able to treat people in the industry and day-to-day life like shit. And the persecution complex is just classic. How many horrible people have you seen get defensive when they face repercussions for being horrible and act like they live in a dystopia?
really liked this review, is very difficult sometimes to separate the art from the artist, and dave sim is pretty damn difficult one, but think of this, the art will outlive the artist, the art will impact many lives that have no idea about artist personal beliefs, and many other ways that art and artist will become apart in both time and space. *( sorry if I got too philosophical on this)
Early Cerebus is iconic and mandatory reading for any comic fan, but the quality definitely drops near the end. "Latter Days" until the end could (should?) be skipped. "Going Home" and "Form and Void" also aren't needed.
You asked if you can separate artist from art and to be honest i think that kind of separation has it's degrees. Sometimes I can say "well this comic creator is kinda of jerk, but he can tell a good story." I don't think there's a cookie cutter answer to the question.
His anti-women view started after he & Deni got divorced, that's a thing that can happen. In the monthly comics, the letters pages were a thing, some issues having 8+ pages. Some of it talking about the comics, lots of religion, free-speech, bashing or praising other creators, and Dave developing his women-hating world view. If you only have phonebooks, you're missing out on half the fun. On the separating the creation from the creator topic; I think this is a special case. In the stories and letters, Dave fully documents his gradual descent into madness. And there's no editor to say "Um, hey, dude, wtf?" Can you disagree with a creator's position and be entertained or educated by seeing how they got that way? Most people who have a mental breakdown don't publish it.
Yeah, I used to work with a guy , his divorce completely upped whatever anti-women feelings he had ( she supposedly cheated on him , bringing the dude into their house and fucking him on their bed, all that stuff, and he said she has a substance abuse problem as well) , there was probably some casual mysogny already there but after that he really had a clear distaste for women in general.
@MemphoWrasslin1 it was a journey that took well over a decade, with lots of factors... failed relationships... being Canada's first comic artist with rock star status... studying religions... reading too much Oscar Wilde... it was subtle and slow, that's the part I find interesting
I don't make excuses for Sim's perspective, but I also don't think that my paying him for his work on the phonebooks has set back feminism in any substantial way. Sim has been, and always will be a peripheral player on the world stage. I don't think that supporting his work is counter to the ability to support a feminist (or any more egalitarian) viewpoint. I like most of Cerebus, and I put up with the parts I like less. I wouldn't vote for Dave Sim, but I still appreciate his Magnum Opus, flaws included.
The whole "Can you separate the art from the artist?" discussion goes back centuries, at least back to some Renaissance geniuses who were brilliant creators - and murderous jerks! The real dilemma comes down to the Artist going from flawed human being to absolutely repellent in their actions and personal lives. Most of us can shrug off a person getting drunk from time to time - or even regularly. The tipping point is when they start affecting and ruining other people's lives, when their words or actions make you say, "I can't enjoy their work, anymore." It's the difference between 1970s Woody Allen and post-1990s Woody Allen. I can enjoy operas by Richard Wagner because, even though he was a selfish, manipulative, jealous, appallingly antisemitic jerk, he never made those grotesque qualities the foundation of his work. Also, he never acted on them in a tangible, physical way. You hate a particular group? That makes you a creep. You go out and beat up someone from that group? You're not getting any more Jacquie Lawson cards from me, Chester!
