The Controversy Surrounding The Michigan Relics Explained | The Michigan Relics | Real History 

Why would you make a Video even considering that the Relics are a Hoax? Some Scientists are wrong.

If this is an example of what this channel considers "historical", I'd genuinely rather hit my foot with a ball-peen hammer. Repeatedly.

I left the following as a general comment but the "hosts" of this channel should read it. Everyone associated with this channel should be deeply embarrassed by this "real history." This is offensive. The only "real history" is that a couple of aspiring grifters manufactured "relics." To go into a discussion of "how did they get here," "it's hard to cross the ocean" leads the gullible into thinking "experts" are trying to hide "the truth."

The interview with David Allen Deal isn't the best of scholarly discussion. The Copts are still around -- they're the pre-Arab Conquest Egyptians. In the year that Deal says they had a distinct theology, 375, the Copts were still in communion with the Churches in Rome and Constantinople. They all had the same theology. Deal goes on to claim that Emperor Constantine had an agenda to have his own pet theology enshrined as Church doctrine. The problem with that claim is that the only evidence shows that Constantine ended the persecutions against Christians, but he wasn't the first Roman emperor to do so. There had been others who allowed the Christians to live in peace, and all of them were followed by an emperor who persecuted Christians. In 20/20 hindsight we can see that no emperor who followed Constantine persecuted Christians, but there's no way the Christians of the time could know the future. Many of the bishops who were alive when Constantine was emperor had scars from the tortures of persecution, and probably everybody knew someone, or many, who had died for the Faith. They had refused to compromise their beliefs even in the face of death. But Deal, and others, claim that Constantine imposed his theological will on the Christian Church. That's a head scratcher. The only way Deal can defend the claim is to assert that the bishops were so tired and weak that they all gave in and changed Christian doctrine in exchange for being able to live in peace, and he'll have to present evidence that this happened. It's possible to trace the origins of this claim about Constantine, though, and if I recall correctly it was first posited in the late 19th or early 20th century. That's not first hand or even second or third hand source. Whoever put this documentary together should have done that basic research before deciding to put Deal's claim into the evidence, or at least have acknowledged that his claims in this regard are controversial. The fact is that the claim about Constantine's influence on Christian doctrine is dismissed as crackpot by serious historians of every belief. Editing to add that the claim that YHW is "Jehova" is way out there. That's a long explanation, but the short one is that the Hebrew texts that were used in synagogues included the abbreviation for "Elohim" (Lord) above the proper Name of God, because God's Name was never to be spoken aloud. The rabbi who read the Scriptures aloud in synagogue was reminded to substitute the word "Elohim" for "Yahweh." A Catholic monk in the medieval period or later mistook the way both abbreviations were written, with "Elohim " (abbreviated) written *above* the"YWH," to be the single word "Jehova." The monks who used his written copy to make other copies perpetuated the mistake, while Bibles copied from other monasteries continued to write it as it had been done. The confusion wasn't cleared up until the 20th century. But the mistake wasn't present in any Scriptures of the time that these guys claim the Michigan artifacts were supposedly brought by Coptic explorers. So that's just another argument against the theory.

The name of the church is.... THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

Very well said!

Curious how you gloss over all the company's in Michigan which destroy any artifacts found while excavating and building.

​@@Howl-Runner those aren't the only ones destroying the earth in general, he didn't "gloss over" anything lol man I hope you find more happiness so your not trolling comments on you tube for self validation

WHAT DO SAY ABOUT THE VERY TALL SKELETONS FOUND ALL OVER AMERICA? WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THE ORAL HISTORIES OF MANY TRIBES THAT SAY THAT GIANT PEOPLE LIVED IN AMERICA THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO?

🧐🤦‍♂️🤣🤣 I thought ignorange was supposed to be bliss? I sincerely hope you're not voting in elections or, God forbid, procreating.

Museums was the only places except the Art, buildings on my 33 days of the best days of my life am now 73 occurred June 30- August 3, 1969 to Europe all expenses paid including air fare ,food and lodging with two per room with bus transportation throughout cost $1,000. The world has become worse not better thus no children as the population in free fall because too expensive with hunter gathering better for health of the human body everyone should know this since 1920.

Covering his lies, study his microreactions. He knows there are many that are real...

He was not much of an artist.

@@billshiff2060 Good enough to fool many.

Hehe

Only problem is that Henriette Mertz translated the relics and found them to be real

@@michaelsterling6163 There are people who believe the Loch Ness monster is real even after confessions from the fakers,.

Any TRUE investigation combines three aspects. 1 you PROVE they are real. 2 you PROVE they are faked. 3 COMPARE the two and conclude what the results are.

He went to a store and made a few guesses. Discrediting one fake to discredit the real ones. They add their fakes, u know, just to do this. Can't fake the accuracy of those ancient eclipse carvings tho, in the year 1904 😄 And theyre still in museums We display fakes in our museums 😄 Laughable.

They are real artifacts

Haha, right? I'm glad I'm not alone. Those are obvious forgeries at very first glance. They're not even good forgeries, they're so naive, as if made by a child- or some poor, uneducated farmer in the 1920's.

@@anarchy_79 Successful farmers in the 1920s were far from poor or uneducated.Where do you get such ideas?Many self made millionaires came off the farm.Guaranteed those farmers had high G,which simply means practical working intelligence.People like Ford,Edison etc.

@@anarchy_79 leave your mother out of it m8

​@@davidkgreenYou can tell that's the type of nonsense that a Michael Bloomberg, Naom Chomski or a George Soros puts into a simple mind!

All the carving and lines were perfect. No weathering except on the copper but that’s easy to do with salt water.

I had that same thought. Too many were just WAY too pristine.

Co workers

Do a little research, try to find out what happened to the Cities along the Mississippi river and in New Mexico, Arizona all up and down the Eastern US. There were large towns created by the various tribes of the Eastern Confederate in all 13 original states, do you think that the White man were going to leave evidence of their victims after they slaughtered them all? Do you think the few mounds remaining are the only things the "Mound Builders" created? No, most of the time the US Government sent the "civil engineers" (don't know what they were called) but sent these crews out ahead of the "settlers" to loot and raze anything remaining of the cultures in the territories that were wiped out by the poxs and other diseases or driven out by the military! Then anything left the settlers would flatten as they created pastures, fields and homestead and towns...

@@oldogre5999 I'm pretty certain that the government (which was nowhere near as organized and well-equipped as modern governments) was not so systematic and motivated when it came to ruins and artifacts as you suggest. The relatively isolated conditions and the lawless nature of the frontier along with man's inherent greed and curiosity are more than enough to account for the lack of large-scale material evidence.

@@waynemyers2469 You are welcome to think as you like. Makes little difference to me, after all ignorance is bliss right?

@@oldogre5999 I wouldn't know, why don't YOU tell me because if you think the Michigan Relics were real you are the ignorant one.

give me a minute, I'll have a cooking pot to sell you....

As if everyone was walking around back then with an inscribed tablet, like a mobile phone…. :)

Good point, or lije I said: what are niw lakes were a channel to the ocean and a water highway.

How were they faked? And for what purpose?

Why would someone go around in that many areas, bury artifacts, the wait for the owners to fund them a 100 years ago?

@@denisesipsy1281 agreed. And how would they line up an ancient lunar eclipse so accurately in their faked depictions of history? Especially in 1904! Like, c'mon now. They were laypeople, uneducated people. They didn't know jack about ancient civilizations and even less about ancient eclipse dates 🙄 How could a hoax be so accurate? I'ma go off of the usual scenario in these scenarios: its real, they want us to think its fake, so they added fakes to the mix to be discredit the real ones. Just like the Ica stones, the alien stuff, and everything else

My Grandparents joked about Bigfoot not being real. That didnt age well either.

Yep. It's not much more than a good laugh to us.

@AllyCat510, keep in mind that this video is probably 20 years old. So the video it’s self could be considered of history. The production quality is such that it doesn’t show its age much. Dr. Stamps is a friend of my dad, he’s currently 81 years old. In this video he’s probably in his early 60’s.

fake history

Would you wear a fake watch? Buy fake money? Would you destroy fakes to remove them from potential circulation that would dilute the value of real money? That's what these items do. they dilute real history and as such should be removed from any study or presentation. They do not teach or promote any real history unless you are studying forgery.

It's true that "Native Americans" in the Great Lakes area used some copper arrowheads, but these were from "native" copper, (copper occurring naturally). There is no evidence they ever smelted copper, and these plates were made from smelted copper.

So whales are returning to the Great Lakes? Which are freshwater? Are they swimming up the Mississippi and then locking through the locks on the Chicago ship canal? Or coming up the St Lawrence and then swimming up Niagara Falls to get to Lake Erie?

@oldgysgt There are ancient mines in Michigan.

@@sufyb6432; yes, there is archeological evidence the natives were gathering and using native copper, (natural occurring copper in metal form), but there is no evidence that they were smelting copper from ore, (refining copper metal from copper bearing stone ore).

I want to assure you there are no whales in the Great Lakes. They are not returning as they have never been there.

They are Authentic Artifacts. *"Mainstream Academics/Archaeologists" are just married to their ,"19th Century Theory based Paradigm and Linear Timeline".* aka the Darwinian Model Theory, there are an abundance of studies that suffice to prove their Paradigm inaccurate. The facts are emerging at present and Peer Reviewed Science has and will have some exciting discoveries for our era's awareness. These finds challenge their model, and that's why the scream fraud.

Sounds like he was a follower of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

@@overbeb He was a Lutheran. That sort of idiocy was popular then. The forerunners of Graham Hancock and the rest of the ancient aliens crowd.

Anachronistic Mormons at work.

@@carlmally6292 Indeed, Joseph Smith merely co-opted an idea that was already pretty popular at the time (that's one of the reasons he got so many converts early on).

"don't get in the way of business"

Oh?

Yeah that was clear..

"Bringo!" - Dr. Steve Bruhl

Your wrong and must be a lefty. You lefties all think that you have to have a degree. You don't think so e one can learn just by reading and listening to other archeologist. I quit school in the tenth grade. But I love history and love to read. And so I did for years. Well I had to go to a psychiatrist to get a test done to see where I was intellectually. She got through with me after three hours of testing. And wanted to know where I went to college. She said I had at least three and a half years of college. I told her no mam, I. A welder fitter. Never went to college . And she said she had been doing this for forty years and have never been wrong. I said you are now. She got mad and said well how did you know all this History? I like to read. I don't hardly ever watch TV. She said most people quit reading after school. I found that amazing. Because I couldn't comprehend people not wanting to read.

Justified proof we were not cuku for cocopuffs

@@odis-edgardavidsonthefamilyof Yes, people who buy into this are fruit loops.

Actually, artifacts are found during construction. In the area where I live, back in the 70’s / 80’s, new neighborhoods were going up like crazy. When bones and artifacts were turned up, they were quickly dumped in trucks and hauled off, so as not to be seen. It’s very sad, but the state and county would shut down the build sites for years, or forever, if they knew, so the builders protect their investments by getting rid of the evidence. Economics wins over history. I myself as a kid, found what I now believe may have been an ancient drum, a piece of pottery with carved markings, and an arrowhead in the field across from my house. The “drum” and pottery were in the dirt under a small pile of rocks. Arrowhead was elsewhere in the field. Stupid kid, I thought nothing of the drum or pottery and tossed it. I still have the arrowhead. Point is, people find things and either don’t know what it is or purposely hide it.

Gougers

Yep. The fact that others are unable to find anything like these pieces in that area (or surrounding areas) is a huge red flag that so many sadly don’t bother considering. I mean, even with the truth coming out about the supposed artifacts, there are still people who refuse to acknowledge it and will try every way to justify continuing to believe it’s real.

I live in Michigan in a 1896 farmhouse as well and I'm constantly digging up artifacts also. Pieces of glass bottles, pottery, plates (one with the full logo clearly visible, it was a very common 1800s manufacturer) and very rusty metal hardware. Like you said, it is most likely all of it was trash of the day. I keep most of what I find because it is interesting to me.

That's awesome!!! I would love to find artifacts around waterford. Also, pan that black dirt. Won't be too hard, there is plenty of gold here in Michigan. All glacial deposit unless in the UP there is some native gold.

I live in a home in Allendale, MI, I refer to as “our hovel”. It was built in 1870 by a Civil War Veteran and was, as I understand from older neighbors, a hog farm in it’s day. I can’t dig into the yard here ‘anywhere’ and Not find some kind of old something, like a piece of a farm implement, or an old shovel, hoe or pick of some kind or the other; there are glass bottles, some not broken, and just simply anything you can imagine from those days. If the house had been put up with the old wood balloon construction of those days it would most likely offer up relics too as I change the interior walls but, he put this one together with cinder blocks and mortar. That means no old newspapers or cowboy and Indian magazines, no old dolls and shoes, period cigars and God knows what else I have found in remodels of other old wood framed houses from the 1800’s in Grand Rapids and surrounding areas. In one job we found old letters from a young girl and her Civil War Soldier; in one she even spoke of the Government coming and taking their horses as they were needed by the Army. Fascinating stuff. There is enough real artifact items out there without the need to creatively develop fakes. Fakes tends to diminish the initial value of artifacts and those who pull that should be severely reprimanded by our culture. They don’t deserve their moments in the light and they cast negativity on the rightful place of the real thing.

Under the dousing art is 2 L shaped rods that cross directly over metal ... Takes a bit of pratice but very reliable ... A couple coat hangers will get you started... Brass even gold are the best as the vibrate as well as cross ...

@@beardedxj I did find gold specs in it but who knows where it went. I have hoarder genetics so I save too much good shit as it is, let alone useless stuff. Lol. Combine hoarder genetics with being a handy man& it can add up way too fast. Lol. I clean shit out 4x a year& still think I have a mess. Although that may be the OCD kicking in.

When I went to Cahokia mounds in Illinois the museum claims that the natives who lived there were working copper.

He didn't say nobody did it; he said there have been no smelting sites found in that area.

Exactly!

@@tonybanana461 They said they were cold working copper, not smelting it.

Correct like in far away Oregon and Tennessee, but not Michigan.

It's good state lore though.

It goes well with the rest of the corrupt and debauchery in the state. I always assumed MI’s sad state of affairs is due to the unions, but it seems it’s deep at the core.

You did not hear about it because these are these artifacts were suppressed and hidden From the public.

@@haredr6511 Watch your mouth, smoothbrain. Talk all the shit you want about the warzone south of Saginaw, but the rest of the state is paradise.

@@patriciamchenry “artifacts” more like artifakes.

Their ancestors???

The haplogroup X DNA is found in native Americans and people from the sea of Galilee. DNA can't be faked

? More squatters ? LOL..Sorry, people of color were the earliest inhabitants ...not the Norskies. OK..who is the next bunch to claim our native land as theirs ????

Mormons trying to get the Book of Mormon artifacts they so badly want.

​@garybowler5946 Mormons are a perfect example of what it means to be human. They are both wrong AND right. Or rather, right for the wrong reasons, lol. Look up the Utah-Judah connection. It is fascinating.

If you read the Henrietta Mertz book called 'The Mystic Symbol" you will see the these artifacts were mainly found by farmers or excavations for cellars or foundations. And Henrietta was a court forensics expert and attorney who gave forgery testimony all the time. She knew that these carvings were softened with time and timeworn. She believed them to be authentic. Open your mind people!

​@@therealdannymullenya Mormons originally believed all black people were evil, followers of Satan. Changed less than a hundred years ago. Tells your all you need to know

Yes, thinking logically means not being emotionally attached to side A or side B

Yes, like the evolutionists and their bone fragments with plastic molding to fill in the 99% gaps.

They’re called Mormons 😂

​@@koobs4549if the "Mormons" are wrong then how do you explain the haplogroup X DNA found in native Americans and people from the sea of Galilee? You can't fake DNA and just because some artifacts are fake doesn't mean all of them are

@@ChillCat665 There were no horses or chariots in the pre-Columbian Americas.

I am

Maybe if you drink the water 😂 ...

It is certainly a notable area. Born in Minnesota, visited Michigan there many times

@@jimwills2094 That's funny

Shirley: You still here?

Not a fake

@@odis-edgardavidsonthefamilyof Seems pretty straight forward that they are fake, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

they were called thong trees

No kidding like whoever created the tablet was doing it on the day of the eclipse and just happened to write the biblical happenings from hundreds of years earlier.

I’ll talk about it: it’s not a Minoan tablet. You’re welcome.

St. Ignacio,1st church, Americas

Ignacio us, ok yeah

The radio carbon dating on the Mt arrorat structure was conducted by 4 labs. 3 of them had results varying from the year 800 ce to the year 1700 ce. One of them (not kegit in my opinion) said the wood, fibers and pellets were 4800 bce. It's not Noah's arc.

Far-fetched

not at all he just described how easy it would be, dummy@@ramsrnja

Lucky!

Have the sword looked at. It could be hundreds of years old. Some Japanese officers would use a sword that was handed down in their family for generations. Look it up, it wasn’t uncommon. They would repurpose the sword with a new hand guard and handle. There was an article less than a year ago that a WWII veteran returned a sword to a family in Japan that was made in the 16th century

There's markings on the tang under the handles, that's the sword makers mark, look up the symbols. The pawn stars had a few looked at and they ended up being worth tons of money

Mr Nobody you recognize the drill holes… are they similar to the holes in head!

I’ll wager your sword has markings “ made in Japan…Taiwan… China or Cicero, Illinois.

His agenda is to prove that the Book of Mormon is true. Which in my opinion it is true. But he makes money doing seminars about the historocity of the Book of Mormon. He proposes that the stories in the book took place from Louisiana up to Michigan. I am Mormon. Most Mormons believe the lands and people described in the Book of Mormon are in Meso America. The book of mormon talks about two groups of people leaving the middle east and coming America under God's direction. Thus some of the people here anciently were descendants of Isreal.

Thevoil lamp is a classical fraud. It is not documented in any archeological dig in the US. So it could come anywhere. People are not aware how importatnt documentation is and what context a found exists.

Even a fake language is invented to serve the purposes of facilitating grammatical communication -- a fake language *_will_* have high statistical correlation to existing languages, just due to the fact that it is a language. That's the nature of language, and of statistical correlations. If those old hoaxsters were *_that_* educated, they would have done a better job at weathering the "artifacts" to make the incised lines less fresh and crisp, and if they were *_really_* dedicated, they should have hired another artist to make some of them. As it is, every one of the artifacts shown in this video appears to have been made by the same artisan in the same workshop within the last couple of centuries *_at most_* . Incised lines this shallow would have been erased by the weathering process centuries ago if they were anywhere near as old as claimed.

I think at some point someone thought that the hoaxter guy had found a real artifact and, realizing he could make money, he used the emblems or "letters' from the first one to make more of them to sell.

There are ancient mines in that area, and many skeletons were unearthed there. These may not be fake.

They'll never listen 🙄😒

One family made a bunch of tablet forgeries but there’s a number of other types of things that have been found

Yes, I heard of this cave on 'Coast to Coast' radio many years ago.

Also deemed a hoax Burrows Cave

The amount of copper used in the Bronze Age was so massive, the various sources around Europe and the Middle East have been questioned as to their ability to produce copper in those quantities.

If there is no providence all you have is a piece of metal or clay. This is almost as bad as the "Egyptians settled in the Grand Canyon I saw a few weeks ago..."

At the time they said people came to the great lakes for the copper the copper age was over, copper wasn't that valuable then

The simplest and most likely answer usually is in fact the answer. Aliens.

Fake. Fake. Fake. FAKE!!!. There. Just incase there was some doubt.

i grew up in flint as well😎

There was a sunken ship found in the Mediterranean with copper ore that matched that from upper Michigan. It was a bronze age vessel if memory serves. The copper pits of the upper peninsula used to be attributed to Indian activity but I think that theory has now quietly gone to bed.

Those funds were from a later period than that claimed by the people who believe the Michigan artifacts were from the 300s.

What you find so "refreshing" is simply the scientific method. Science is always open to new data and evidence, which changes the "narrative". That's how it works. Anyone who holds on to previous theories because they are particularly enamored with their own discoveries, or favorite theories, is no scientist. When that happens, the person in question goes down in history as a failed and fraudulent practitioner. Someone who establishes a theory, that is later proved to be in error after new data comes to light, is not discredited, but actually celebrated as part of the ongoing scientific method. It is no disgrace, unlike someone who would pervert the scientific method to hold on to their erroneous position. Those people are either examples of egotistic, unprincipled people who are not following actual scientific methods, or, as in the case of some Egyptologists who refuse to consider new data and findings, polluted by political, religious, or cultural influences. There is, actually, very few issues that could actually be termed "settled science". Every scientist actually knows that. The people who do not understand these things are ignorant of the scientific method, which is the best system humanity has to keep us from lying to ourselves in our examination of facts, history, etc.

Open to new evidence? What a concept! lol

I agree. He sounded like a total jerk.

This sounds hilarious

he sounds like a hoot. What a great idea!!!! bread crumbs for the idiots.

Your grandfather was awesome. Lol

@@jamesbehrje4279 he seems to be the forerunner of the Meme Lord. All hail Grandpa Blackhawk!

Mr. Stamps is opening up things that he claims to know nothing about and yet he's commenting on them. Plus he's misidentifying the grain of the wood what you might put some clay with saw marks that are clearly not consistent enough in any way shape or form to be marks made by a saw. Then eventually shows a circular saw and circular saws do not make straight cuts. They just don't! And then he comments eventually that he can't identify what Henrietta births was seeing, and yet he doesn't state that he has any background in languages. The man is a fraud commenting on shit he knows nothing about admittedly he knows nothing about them! I do understand the problem with the thin sheets of copper. Those are decidedly fraudulent for the most part. Because the American Indians use pounding stones to pound out their copper they could not have made sheets of copper even in their smelting operations down in Ohio. I do agree that there were no smelting operations yet found in Michigan. But many smelting operations by American aboriginals have been found in Ohio. And it cannot be denied. They've got slag present, which is consistent with a smelting operation amongst other things.

@@44hawk28 lol. Okay champ

He probably already knew they were fake at a glance, but he still went all the way to thoroughly debunk them.

That would explain the Clay oil lamp, but not the thousands of bogus ""artifacts" these con artist were "finding".

@@oldgysgt agree completely.....

Fell was a professor of invertebrate zoology--"best known for his pseudoarchaeological work in New World epigraphy, arguing that various inscriptions in the Americas are best explained by extensive pre-Columbian contact with Old World civilizations. His writings on epigraphy and archaeology are generally rejected by those mainstream scholars who have considered them." Not exactly the guy to believe on this topic. It doesn't strike you as peculiar, the particular choices of old world scripts? They are commonly chosen as something that few people can read, but are familiar enough to be identified, which is exactly what a hoaxer needs. This kind of hoax can be found all over North America, especially the US. Don't be a sucker, don't open your mind to the point your brain falls out. For that matter, this stuff has been done for many centuries across the old world, long before the new world began to be overrun by Europeans. You'd have to be seriously stupid to just take this crap as anything but crude forgeries.

Equally wrong to do would be to treat his judges as though they were unbiased, scientists who did not have significant investment, in time if not money, into the structure of epigraphic archaeology of the present day and age. Science quits being science when it automatically will not consider the questions that consider its choice of facts, omitting those that would disprove them, or when it will not consider the driving presuppositions. When you permit the concept of "it is already proven science", you now begin to talk about either religion, or engineering. @@TheEudaemonicPlague

Fell (1917-1994) was a person of extraordinary genius. His critics are always people who never knew him. His special knowledge was in ancient euro-mediterranean scripts. The new world studies came from the appearance of these scripts at new world sites. North America archeologists lacked the linguistic knowledge to critique Fell scientifically so they went ad hominem. Fell considered these Michigan artifacts to be 100% fraudulent and didn't waste any time on them.

Your city, GR, is the cleanest city I've ever visited. I live in FL. 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

They can't help but to speak the truth whether it serves their purpose or reveals their self interest

Perhaps they lived in structures that did not survive. Doesn't mean they weren't there.

I was born in Newberry MI.

@@au7-721 I'm from St.Ignace.

I’ve been there many times! Very cool place!

Where is Cass City? And where are these petroglyphs?

They may be fakes, but Talked he knew that there were ancient people who lived in that area before the native Americans.

Im glad Talmage didn’t just buy in because of his faith. It’s also nice to hear that the LDS church sought out a legit Michigan archeologist to examine the collection. It would have been tempting to use this stuff to corroborate certain beliefs.

Those golden Mormon tablets have never been seen other than by Joseph Smith, why were the tablets not saved and preserved by your church.

@@tenabarnes3269 No, they were returned to the Angel. Through the power of Jesus Christ there are resurrected beings and the plates were precious to them. Besides, we are trying to convince you to trust the science and this is the proof the plates are true. We are trying to get you to read the text, feel the spirit and become converted. That is not a materialistic process facilitated by evidence, it’s a spiritual process facilitated by faith, prayer and personal study.

@@AmericanFire33 Your last sentence is a contradiction, believe because you need to believe; your previous sentences are just ridiculous.