@@taylorfusher2997 not a pro but I'm sure sparring can help figure out different tells people can make and how to capitalise on it in the moment. In an actual fight you'd probably want to spend some time observing your opponent maybe throwing a couple jabs to see how they tick.
Mike's becoming a professional, always being conscious of the framing and making sure to stay opened up to the camera. I noticed several quick shifts in position, almost like it has become instinctual.
I actually wonder if he spent a lot of time during his LE days doing instruction and presentation. I don't know much about that- but he's always seemed really aware of positioning himself to the 'audience' even when engaged directly in conversation with someone else. Not to dick ride the man too much but it's a big part of why his videos are entertaining to me even when I'm not super interested in the content (the man covers some wacky shit sometimes lol), I feel like I'm watching an instructor- not someone just talking to a camera.
I like IcyMike's cerebral approach to it, that the angle changes depending on the range he's working at. I've never heard it vocalized like that, and to me based on my experience, makes perfect sense. Good stuff.
I'm a proponent of the range-based argument, but the body proportions of each person also coming into play is reasonable as well. The long range palm out hook I actually refer to as an Inward Back Fist Strike / Deung Jumeok An Chigi rather than a Hook Punch / Dollyeo Jireugi because I'm a giant TKD nerd. Either way I love these kinds of videos. Awesome!
3:05 IIRC, Gabriel Varga did a video on this a while ago and came to the same exact conclusion: The range dictates which way you turn to keep your knuckles on target. Makes sense to me, too.
I don't like that video because the way Gabe showed his "long hook" would not land with the knuckles when you remove the gloves. Throw in every way you want and then twist it thumbs down before impact and your hook will land with the big knuckles in every distance you want to throw it, especially in far range because thumbs down basically turn it into an overhand
Palm down hurts my shoulder at close ranges. But I almost always throw my hooks at a palm in range for me. Even if they are out of range I'll move in if the hook is there just to get into palm in range
@@CoeCoeLocoI’m about your size & a slow runner. So I go for a quick resounding response. If that’s not possible I just drag it out waiting for that one slip. Never looked for trouble, never turned my back on it. Martial arts has been a lifelong blessing.
@@CoeCoeLoco Mostly I just box, and take whatever he/they give me. I don’t look for trouble but sooner or later trouble will find you. Unless you run from it. But I’m a terrible runner. Sooner or later, fools will be fools. But I had good teachers. So I’ve only been in a too tight spot a couple of times, where I was in real danger for a moment. Most people who think that they know how to box are really clueless. And many people with a little knowledge become focused on snapping out a sequence from a kata independent of what they face. You don’t have to be Bruce Lee. Just have quick hands and don’t become predictable, and garden variety beer muscles & bullies fold easily. If you have put in the work. Boxing is a lot more subtle than just trading punches.
Turning the wrist inward thumb 45 degrees in a hook (more common in Muay Thai actually adds another benefit I never hear people talk about. It protects the shoulder from injury. I always did the hook like the bald white guy. I believe it is more powerful but can cause problems even thrown correctly. I’ve been using the Muay Thai style hook for a while now bout 4 years now. The first 6 months was awkward but eventually started working good and also keeps your elbow high to avoid counter punches. It doesn’t seem powerful but it is powerful.
I throw hooks palm in because I'm less likely to clip just my pinky on a grazing shot. Less likely I'll screw up my hand. Power isn't everything. I do throw the long range ones, too. I almost never throw palm down, even though the range demo you showed here makes sense.
With wrapped up hand in gloves, it's a distance thing. Close distance = palm inwards, medium range = palm down, long range = palm diagonally outwards. However, with bare knuckles it's probably safest to keep the palm inwards to prevent injuries to the pinky side of the hand.
Palm in typically gives you more power, but I love palm down because of the range and increased knuckle placement, also you can do a nice variant of palm down called a Thai hook which is where you’re throwing at a slightly downward angle, let’s you chop through guards pretty nice.
I’m coming from the kickboxing side of things, specifically from Joe Lewis’ fighting system, and we were trained palm down because it provided better protection. Palm down brings the shoulder up and naturally covers your chin to where you barely even have to tuck it (though You always should!) if your forearm is properly parallel. The power comes from the step, up through the ground to the hips, and finally right through to the opponents chin. The difference in stances and even glove size in boxing might account for some differences I can’t say.
Palm down simulates more of a looping overhand than a hook, and if bare knuckles, runs more of a risk of hurting your hand. As a southpaw, I tend to throw a right hook, and my follow through drives straight left as I twist my hips.
I do it based on where I'm aiming. If I'm going towards the chin (the corner of the mouth), then palm in. If it's closer towards the back of the jaw, then it's palm down
palm in gives you as faster hook because you can snap with the bicep, but I think structurally palm down is much stronger at the shoulder joint, giving you less give on impact. The position your arm is in when you land your hook is the halfway point of where your arm would be during a bench press whereas palm in is the halfway point for a chest fly. The chest fly engages the bicep more but the press engages the anterior deltoid more. When you hit at a proper angle with a hook (non slappy), your forearm is perpendicular to the point of impact so you're bicep does not really get pulled on, maybe on the way there but at impact, it shouldn't be affected much. Meanwhile, your shoulder joint takes the majority of the impact because the forearm will be perpendicular to the upperarm putting all the strain upon impact on your shoulder. Therefore I think a palm down hook can endure a stronger hook when you're throwing with your body behind it. I hit the heavy bad palm in because palm down hurts my hand for some reason, but on pads and in sparring, always palm down. The difference is very apparent. The palm in gives a loud slap, but palm down gives a low thud which goes right through the target and gets a noticeable reaction from my pad holders.
I agree with your last part, my palm in is loud asf and safer on the wrist for more sturdy objects but my palm down is def more of a deep thud and more impact crams into my wrists.
They're both correct. As a coach you have to find what works for each fighter, as every person is unique. Just because YOU throw a harder hook palm in, doesn't mean everyone is going to. Also, it depends on the combination you're throwing. Palm down/in might flow better after a certain punch. As boxing is not just about learning to throw 1 punch, it's learning how to set up punches with other punches, feints etc
“One of those there” is an over hand bowler punch. Hooks yours is the classical the flat hand is Russian hook and they teach it for whipping in under elbow and as you demonstrated as range goes out the hand turns over. Theres 3 level range for hooks you can’t rename a tight uppercut as a hook, nor rename the bowler as an overhand hook. Bowlers are great trained the under and over at range both together (if ya get me) there’s no diss here you guys are great
I enjoy this kind of stuff. This is exactly how I think when I'm throwing. What is the persons body like, what are their individual weaknesses and strength, what is the angle of their jaw etc.
I never really paid attention, cause as you're saying it just depends on how I'm using it. But when I visualize it, when I'm on top hooking down, it's palm down. But I get low and come up, I hook with my thumb up. That's pretty cool, thank you Mike.
I was taught this in 1982 by a Korean Grand Master in Mudkwon Tae Kwon Do. Its not this wimpy TKD of today. Normal training for a hook. Reason for turning palm down is because you want to punch with the 2 first knuckles on your hand only. Little fingers get broke. Swing your opposite foot of your hook at same time to increase speed and power. Sounds like somebody needs to study the 365 electric points(TARGETS) on the body. Look at an acupuncture chart to figure it out. Not all are targets on the chart, but look where people kick in martial arts. There will be an internal organ that it connects to and a mental emotion. For example in Muay Thai, inside shin kick tightens the muscles of the inner leg, puts pressure on the liver, and gives the emotions of frustration, anger and depression. Now you know how martial arts work. I have learned all these points in medicine and martial arts training. Enjoy!
Once I figured this out, that it’s all dependent on range, it clicked for me and made sense. It’s also safer and puts less stress on your wrist/joints when striking.
First off I think this is my favorite video I've seen in a very long time. Also it's really interesting that everything with using the right strike with the organ, the palm up and in for the liver. It's all the same pressure point stuff we learned in karate. Pretty sweet
It's not either/or, but a bareknuckle pugilism technique I learned to love is inverted fist, thumb down, known as a rounding blow. With this I can sneak in a powerful blow at or behind the ear, and it has a lot of rotational force behind it. I also love it because I have shorter arms, and the inverted fist gives you an extra inch or so of reach. It is slower than a tight hook with thumb up, but that is a different punch.
I had never considered that until i saw a video from Gabriel Varga about the difference between thumb up (palm in) thumb pointing in (palm down) and thumb pointing down (palm out, i think the rounding punch you described). The inverted hook seemed ridiculous until i tried it. You have to be very close, almost clinching range, and ideally with your target right off your opposite shoulder, but you can throw it out wicked fast and (especially important for bare knuckle) it's a way to throw a very close hook while still having a straight wrist. There might be a good reason why it's not seen very much, but i imagined i was using it against someone who was directly beside me (mugger, attacker etc.) and i thought it was more effective than trying to throw a same side elbow (that could get easily stopped) and didn't even take much body movement to throw with decent power.
I was always taught to throw "palm in" when attacking the head, and "palm down" when attacking the body. The logic to me was that we're trying to bludgeon our opponent up top, but we're trying to sort of dig deep on the body (like the knuckles hitting between the ribs).
I throw my hooks like I'm striking a match , palm in. That last second drag/pull adds a little extra oomph and pain, and loads my hand back up for a follow up shot.
I don't know anything about MMA or martial arts but in boxing in the United States, the hook is traditionally thrown palm facing you. In Europe and Cuba they teach palm down because in the amatuers the palm-in is sometimes not counted as a punch but a slap. In the amatuers, distance is your friend so palm down is better for distance as well. If your goal is to generate power, it is palms-in. When i was coming up, If a trainer in Brooklyn in the 80s and 90s seen you throw a hook with your palm down, you'd get slapped with a towel.
When I was initially learning the hook, my coach made an argument which I think is valid too for the palm in/thumb up hook: You want to make sure to hit the target with the 2 big knuckles and not the smaller/weaker ones. Using the right technique based on range seems to be the correct answer but I think that at least beginners should be taught the palm in way. Just to avoid injury if not for anything else. After they figure out the range and how to actually hit the target they can experiment and switch it around.
I was about to comment the same thing. Palm down you risk catching your opponent with the little / ring fingers or knuckles if you get your range wrong or they evade. Barehand, this could be rather painful for you rather than them!
In conventional weight lifting supination or palm up is a stronger grip because your able to engage the bicep, were a pronate grip or palm up has no bicep. When I turn my hand to throw a hook (with my thumbs up) I can flex my bicep and maintain stabilization throughout my wrist (with a significantly reduced risk of injuring my wrist versus palms down).
Very informative! I think the hook that actually lands and does damage is the right one! 😅 timing and target assessment can compensate for the “wrong” palm position. Subscribed!
Not to be "That Filipino Martial Arts" guy in the comments, but I teach a palm down hook because of it's application to a reverse grip knife slash. You can take a boxer who has a pretty good palm down lead hook and jab and make a ferocious reverse grip knife fighter out of him with just a couple of adjustments to his aim and timing. I'm mostly an indifferent boxer, but conserving that body of technique and footwork into a unified sequence helps a lot with elementary earth grip knife stuff.
For hooks to the head, palm down gets the elbow up for protection; that's why boxers use it. But without big padded gloves you really need palm in; you saw hooks change to that in MMA because of the small gloves. If there is a power diff, it's secondary to protecting yourself and your hands.
Good episode 💯🥊 Great to see the open mindedness in technique. I personally use the short hook (palm up) for the body, whereas the long hook for mid range to the head...👍🏾
In Muay, you use palm down for short hooks because you may follow with an elbow too. And palm in for longer shots, but also palm out for the longer circular overhead punch or Buffalo swing style punch in Thai, called Wieng Kwai. So certainly it depends. All have their beneficts and cons. And of course you have to take into account if you are bare hand or gloved.
It also depends on what you are using in your hands, with 16oz boxing gloves you can do thumbs up all the time and have a lot of range, but if you were bareknuckle you'd be landing with your fingers first, and that's ok, you're using the glove to your advantage. With mma gloves it makes sense to turn the fist to look for the knuckle first approach to protect your exposed fingers. With no gloves people usually do palm strikes like in old Pancrase matches, and that would be thumb up, or thumb in round up - down hooks.
It definitely is about distance in what you use, but I'm surprised thumb down/palm out wasn't mentioned... it's the longest range, good for mid-range too and you ensure the just the knuckles are landing on the target.
European hooks is palm inward. American hooks are palm down. Personally I have always preferred the European hook for short hooks. It feels more right with my wrist. For longer hooks I do the variant you showed where you almost punches from the top and down with the two knuckles..
I like to use palm in when I switch from orthodox to south paw using the D'Amato shift to give them a nasty hooks to the nose or when I'm pivoting back and to the left to check my opponent, but I love using my palm down hooks at medium range right on the chin and behind the ear around a guard or after doing an overhand right as a followup punch and leaning back to get away from retaliation if possible. Basically, palm down is more precise but less accurate and palm in is more accurate but less precise due to surface area.
I start by throwing hooks with thumbs up and rotate the wrist at the end of the punch, ending with thumb/palm down. This also keeps me from overspending which makes me more vulnerable to a counter. I feel quicker to.
When I was in the youth boxing program in my town, I was taught to throw my hooks palm down because you will get penalized for hitting your opponent with an open handed shot. That was a long time ago, so Im not sure if that is even a rule anymore in competition, but on the street it doesn't matter.
Position should be delegated by the greatest potential energy created, from the range you are at, in the quickest way, and fastest potential guard recovery. The one that works is best.
All about palm in personally . Its the wrist lock it feels so much stronger. Even throwing right out in a full stiff arm max reach hook I still palm in with the wrist locked in a 90degree angle to the forearm . Any range full force bare Knuckle no problem. Palm down tweak my wrist every time even wrapped. Just doesn't feel like a natural body mechanic to me .
I think there might be a different angle to approach this. What's the safest way to throw a hook? Some of you may have noticed that the "palm down" technique tends to be a safer choice, since it exposes your wrist to lesser injury risk. This happens sometimes during pad training, particularly if the pad holder is inexperienced or has the bad habit of "throwing the pads at you", meeting your punches halfway.
Obviously palm down would be more powerful, because you have to twist and torque to get to that position creating a corkscrew effect and coming down at a angle is money.
And yet, all the top pros palm in, including the goat roy jones, it comes from the fact that it allows for more speed and drawback for defense/ palm down is incredibl hard to recover firm and does not allow for circular punches.
I was taught turn my hand so the pinky is at the bottom (like you're holding a mug of beer) to protect my pinky. If you punch with a pinky out/palm down it may result in a broken finger "boxer's fracture" if you strike someone hard enough and do not connect with the entire hand but instead just the pinky/ring finger. If you need to get the range, move the feet, don't rotate the hand imo.
palm in is the way i've always thrown my hooks too, and it's funny because I've never actually had the discussion with any sparring partners, but I always noticed it seems like body types and preferred range definitely determines whether you use palm down or palm in. but at my "preferred range" its palm in for me.
Not gonna Lie..This One Gentleman that was Trying to Help my kickboxing Game Recommended palm in..He claims it Lessens chances of Injury So I Stick to that…But I Feel any Fighter or Martial Artist should Stick to how They feel the Effectiveness..But I’ll Forever Be Palm in..I Just Trust My Friend that Much
I’m a rank amateur but for me it depends on what I’m trying to hit. If I’m throwing a hook to the head, I like palm in because if I miss I won’t hit with the weaker part of my hand. For body shots I like palm down because I can put more of my pec and shoulders into it, gives it a better snap IMO
One thing I was hoping you would mention, because I am curious about what you think: When you don't have gloves and use palm down, if you misjudge distance or the other person moves, you risk grazing them with just pinky and hurting it. If you use palm in, you don't stick out the pinky knuckle. It seems like an obvious argument to me, but I've never seen anyone talk about it. Am I missing something?
Filipino boxing does palm in for that exact reason. I think it's called a boxers fracture. I've also seen old bare knuckle texts that turn the palm out for long range, and they were referred to as swings instead of hooks.
