The Crass by Ithaca Gun Co. 

Ithaca, L.C. Smith, and LeFever were all in the same region of NYS. During the late 1800's to early 1900's there were several engravers that tended to "float" between the 3 manufacturers. This will tend to produce some similarity in general style but not pattern between them. The New Ithaca Double was a later more modern design that was substantially stronger than the earlier Ithaca models. In the US proof was/is performed by each gun company and not a government proof house. On this side of the pond we have SAAMI which sets standards for cartridges and proof. The manufacturers follow these standards. SAAMI has been in existence since 1926. It is an outgrowth of an earlier organization that oversaw similar standards. The various manufacturers all have their own distinctive proof marks. Remington is REP inside an oval, Winchester is a slightly stylized WP inside an oval, etc. The Crass action is known not to be a very strong action. they tended to develop cracks at the water table and standing breech under heavy use. Thanks for another good video.

It's a ruffed grouse on the trigger guard

I can attest that anything heavier than standard trap loads will cause damage to the action and possibly the stock. The first shotgun that fit me well was an Ithaca Crass, made about 1903. They were built to be affordable to families looking to put meat on the table. I could hit well enough with mine, I could piss off some trap shooters that did not like my hunting stance at the stations. What did I know I was only 16. It was a great gun but would not handle any type of heavy load without a trip to the gunsmith. I still love side by sides because of that gun. They just were not built to handle the heavy loads and pressures we have available today.

My grand Pa had one from 1888 I think it was a 1888 he married a young lady Grace Nelson from England my grand ma and very genuine. Yes I love this gun my grand Pa fought in ww-1 C.W.FOX This video brought back memories Johnny

I have one of these Ithica's. My dad left it to me when he passed away. He told me he bought it when he was a kid. It was his favorite gun to take dove hunting.

I owned an Ithaca Hammerless SXS 10 Gauge in the early 1970's. This Ithaca had 32" Damascus Barrels and 2-7/8" Chambers. It was clearly a Black Powder only shotgun. I used it for Waterfowl in Minnesota with 1-1/2 oz. Lead Shot backed by Fiber Wads and 4 Drams of FFG Black Powder. It was deadly on Ducks, back in the days when Lead Shot was allowed for hunting Waterfowl in MN.

Max. allowable 12 ga. pressure in the US is 11,500 psi (SAAMI). In the early smokeless days, there were problems related to confusing bulk and dense varieties among home loaders. It's why Ithaca offered extra-heavy barrels, if desired and Parker Bros. bought an insurance policy from Lloyds. No claims were ever made under that policy but Parkers were famously sturdy. Loading dense smokeless like bulk could produce dangerous pressures greatly in excess of modern proof. It's amazing to me that more barrels didn't fail immediately. But we do see many old guns with repaired stocks at relative weak points. I'd bet that more than a few of these breaks occurred because of overloads.

Interesting comment about the shield shaped escutcheon not being common on British guns. The pattern on those barrels are beautiful.

Ithacas were neat, Parkers were unusual even by the American standard, but my favorite of the bunch are probably Philadelphia Fox guns.

in the early 90's you could drop into rural town sporting good stores in NY state, and find epic deals on old Ithaca doubles in great condition (and some wall-hangers). I used to agonize over something that was a couple hundred dollars back then. Ugh. Now those stores are all closed, and the guns are being sold for 10x the money online. The price was limited by being sequestered in provincial settings.

Sweet, the triggers are checkered

I have one. Was my grandfather's. My daughter and I went out and shot it for the first time a couple days ago. Very cool.

I have a nice Flues 12 and a A H Fox 12, both about 1920. Grew up with them. Belonged to my grandfather and will hopefully belong to my grandchildren when I’ve finished with them.

I have just acquired a Flues 20 bore here in Australia. I was unsure how to pronounce it and was saying "Fluwes" like you but an enquiry on Gunboards has confirmed it is pronounced "Flews" as in multiple chimneys!

That looks like a road runner to me on trigger guard.

Beautiful barrels.

I don't understand your comment about relative weakness of their barrels. Since they were virtually all Belgian in various patterns, depending on how much a buyer wanted to spend, as I assume were many barrels of British guns, and, since the US guns' barrels tended to be thicker than their British counterparts, why would they be less likely to pass proof? Ithaca also made Damascus guns specifically intended for heavy smokeless loads by supplying very thick barrels. I have only seen illustrations of these, but they seemed impressive. No idea what they weighed. I think Max. 12 ga. shell pressure in the US is 11,500 psi.

It reminds me visually of my 1952 Beretta - built I believe for the US market - also with heavy barrels. I wonder if they used Ithaca guns as a template?

The thing about American cartridges is that SAAMI standards state that the 12 bore should only have a maximum pressure of 11,500 PSI in a 2-3/4" or 3" chamber. It's the 3-1/2" chamber length that goes up to 14,000 PSI.

I think you are being very kind John , it looks quite crude to me and certainly not in the same league as a best B'ham or Scottish box lock .

As I have started to enjoy classic doubles more I have come to prefer L.C. Smith. If you have the opportunity I would suggest taking a look at one and I think you would enjoy as well.

Hello. USA viewer here. Love your channel and thoughtful reviews. Do you have any plans to review the "CZ" (Huglu) line of shotguns? They seem to be gaining popularity over here but I haven't seen anything on your channel about them. Are they available/popular in the UK?

I've heard the arguments for proofing, and it theoretically seems like a sensible precaution to take, but does that theory translate to practice? Does it actually solve a problem? It seems to me that exploding guns are no more common in the US than the UK, so what problem is it solving? What is all the extra expense and bureaucracy actually accomplishing?

Would love to know how American non A and D actions compare to British alternatives like Greener’s Facile Princeps design. Great vid! Never considered collecting American guns until now🤣

You guys really have to get your hands on a Parker they are imo the best American doubles !

So, have you measured the barrel thicknesses and submitted it for proof? Many of us would like to know. It's hard to tell on the video but the barrels may be in the "star pattern". Ithaca was one of the companies that offered it...sort of patriotic. Unless the barrels have been severely honed, they will very likely pass proof. Various Damascus patterns did vary in strength. It seems that the more complex they were, the weaker. Welded barrels in which the ribbons weren't twisted at all were usually quite strong. Unfortunately they weren't visually appealing.

Hshshsh i think under the trigger guard is meant to be a pheasant guys

no matter what the gun is , the revive is all ways interesting . i also like the gun too /

Just put some high loads in it. I'd very much bet it won't blow up or get damaged.

i think the engraved birds are supposed to be pheasants

could bird on trigger gard be a quail?

Boy that pattern would be pretty cool on a knife. If it's damaged during proofing cut up the barrel and have Mark make a knife. Not sure though if it would be or could be made hard enough to get a good edge.

I'd like to see a comparison between this and an equivalently priced British gun when they were made in the 1890's. If a gentleman (or woman) was to put say £20 or 30 ($100 or 150 USD) down on a gun, what could they get from each side if the pond?

The bird on the trigger guard, a Road Runner?

What about chamber length??? Any idea??

It could, just possibly, be worth more....if you would just leave it be, and NOT blow up the barrels

Well? Did it survive proof? 😁

Two great countries!!!!

yours is very nice with the engraving. my 1903 has no engraving in the metal, other than the name of the range that owned it, and standard hunting rifle cross-cut in the fore grip and buttstock. i have yet to shoot it. i only bought it because the Damascus is beautiful to look at.

American guns are built hell for stout , no need for proofing

bird looks a bit like a peacock

He starts off by admitting he didn’t know anything about this gun. Then, we find out he actually “wasn’t that interested”. How much does he need to admit before we can count this as a lost cause of a video?

I think the bird is a Lapwing (Plover)

WHAT is wrong with the camera or camera person?!?!?!?!. Drives me nuts when I'm trying to look at the engraving and I CAN'T ... FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS!!!!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE 🙏.

How many screws? I've told you a million times do not exaggerate. ; -)

With rare exception, double guns are weak, poorly put together, troublesome, and maintenence intensive. Regardless of country of origin.

Why don't they proof their guns? "Freedom"... or maybe freedumb. That is the freedom of companies to sell stuff that hasn't got any of that tedious big gubmint interference with those companies making a profit - at the expense of a few people having their hands/arms/faces blown off by substandard manufacturing.

It is very simple. If the barrels are Damascus twist, don't even shoot low power target loads through it. Eventually you will blow the side of one of the barrels apart. . I have seen the end result of this. It it isn"t pretty