I feel so bad for him… like he just genuinely wanted to help/save infants and mothers but in the end he died suffering…. Everyone think of him as a crazy “hand washing maniac man”…. He didn’t deserved that
Err,are you really trying to sound like the extras in the Life of Brian??? Follow the gourd! :-) Given that there are no limits to how much can be understood,no limits to consciousness,"truth" is a very relative term and the best we will ever have are newer,better (less erroneous) theories that move us away from ignorance towards greater understanding. There is no end point.No final truth.No matter what you are told or believe. The growth that comes from the process of seeking wisdom is all we can ever acquire and the act of selflessly sharing our ideas and theories as we follow that path is the noblest of acts .
Looks to me like an example of the opposite. The guy literally went insane because people ostracized him. The story here is how much damage looking for validation can do both when it's found and when it's not found. In other words how much we rely on reciprocally confirming each others' biases in order to maintain our sanity. The group was looking for a reason that what they were doing before wasn't wrong and an excuse to not change their routine, and the other guy was doing the same. Main difference being: they could validate one another more than limited statistical inference could validate him, so they stayed sane and he was slowly forced into insanity. What was wrong here wasn't following the tribe but looking for validation for pride and laziness within the tribe from a position of social esteem. Social esteem, respect, being loved and all these things make seeking validation hardly ever justifiable, especially outside of desperation and within a shared space. It has a name seeking validation when done by people who aren't desperate for it from within a shared context(for example a collegue seeking validation from his wife is different than a collegue seeking validation from his wife who is also a collegue). The name ranges from bullying, oppression and encitement, depending on context, even when done artfully enough that nobody can accuse you of it. If you sought validation in a shared space, you were bullying, oppressing and enciting. That's the issue, not the fact that they followed the tribe and not TRUTH, which doesn't actually describe how they would have needed as people to act differently in practice from their own positions: less stroking of feathers and a lot more silence.
@federicopettinicchio He went insane because women were dying and his colleages refused to let him save them. He was watching murder happen in front of his eyes, and he was being forced to stay silent about it.
@@AtarahDerek That's not murder, no matter how you slice it, no amount of correlation can prove causation. That's unaltered natural selection, I get his suffering, I do, heck I share it to some extent and it's quite literally Hell on Earth when it comes about. I have a diagnosis for Schizophrenia so I am not speaking out of my ass. I am not trying to belittle that suffering one iota but it's not by subtly implying that he couldn't save them, which is realistically what drove him insane, that you change things. If people washed their hands maybe less would have died but can you promise that the ones who would have died would have been a strict subsection of those who died? No, you cannot and, in fact, it is highly unlikely. Then I decide to think that the ones who died that could have been saved and the ones who suffered who wouldn't have suffered, or were robbed of joys that did not materialize, gave their lives for those that unbeknownst to them benefitted, rather than see their sacrifice as meaningless and the lives of those who survived and had moments of joy through no fault of their own as stolen. I prefer to see them as heroes in their own times as well, not just martyrs and pioneers.
It was an egoic issue for Austrian doctors to accept from a Hungarian doctor in Vienna that he claimed the 'decomposing material' (at that time they did not yet know these were bacteria) was transmitted through his medical colleagues and he prescribed chlorinated handwashing for his colleagues. The medical university in Budapest bears his name: Semmelweis University
I don t think that there is a national issue in this case. After all he was an ethnic German. His last name Semmelweis can be translated to white of a bun/roll. Semmel (austrian/bavarian) = bun/roll, weis=weiß = white. He had made a great discovery but besides the egos of the doctors his art of argumentation was not really helpful. He wrote letters to his peers calling them murderers...
Yes defenetly egotic issue! Just imagine how stupid the doctors felt when they realised this basic hygienic thing… like come on dirty hands spread diseases! Even in medieval time this was the problem of most of the illnesses (lack of basic hygiene)
Yes and it could be argued that Micrografia (Robert Hooke,England,1665) was one of the most important books ever published as it pulled the wool from our eyes as it were.
It's not that they didn't want to wash their hands, it was because it implied they had been the cause of all those deaths and they didn't want to admit that.
I went to the old AK (Allgemeines Krankenhaus - General Hospital) there our tour guide told us, that the doctors just didn’t touch them as much as the midwives so the doctors didn’t get as dirty as the midwives. Consequently the doctors didn’t wash them self. But the midwives didn’t this. The midwives just got more dirty so they wanted to wash them selves.
@@izzyzle You seems to ignore the fact that the doctor that actually try to prevent dead and proceed to highlight the bad side of the other doctors. Women☕☕☕
They were literally accused of aciental murrder, so it can pottentaly endanger their lives from revengfull family members or their careers. Then theres that most doctors swear to do no harm, so logically or emotionally they don't want to believe that.
Former ICU Murse here. Remember this man and others when someone tells you to blindly "Trust the Experts". The history of medicine is filled with revolutionary crazy geniuses that stood in the way of the prevailing experts' thought and they suffered for it. Semmelweis argubly got it the worst. Some argue him being beaten to death by the orderalies in the asylum was set up to happen. The reason being because at the time it was fashion among doctors to be dirty af and have dirty af workplaces: it "demonstrated experience" (especially having an apron with decades of biohazard filth). Also, commercial handsoap and lotion was readily available so soap was pretty mildly caustic. Having a dude yell at you 100s of times a day to stay clean in between medical endeavors and chemically burning the shit out of your hands would infuriate anybody. It wouldn't be until 1889 with Dr. Halstad that the idea of gloves would be used. FFS, the Medicine Field is what popularized the concept "Second Opinion". Always do a little bit of your own personal research; especially if you're in the hospital - you're part of your own healthcare team.
“No, using natural compounds for medicine is literally witchcraft! Take our synthetic drugs that cost you 10000% more than the production cost and will be inevitably exposed for causing loads of unforeseen complications in the future!” Those who hold the money control what’s accepted in society at large. It will be the reality of the industry until all of this corruption pops the bubble and the top men are fighting each other for the last scraps of food in their doomsday bunkers.
Cool, it looks like RU-vid immediately deleted my comment regarding how the medical community rejects nearly all alternative and natural medicine in favor of profit despite the drug industry always getting exposed for terrible side effects and price gauging. Hopefully this one won’t get deleted so RU-vid’s sponsors can man up and take getting offended. :-D (Oh no! I cost them a few Pennie’s! It’s the end of science itself!!!!)
Wrong. The scientific method changed drastically. Scrutinising ones kollegues, reading end reproducing their experiments literally gives one fame, fortune and respect among the scientific community
It's true that world-changing discoveries face opposition from the establishment. Unfortunately, this encourages people to hold all sorts of nonsense, and to face criticism and opposition as if it were the case of a revealed truth that will be widely accepted in some future (but that future doesn't exist).
I’m glad this story is being told. The problem is the lessons seemingly gleaned from Semmelweis’s life, are actively being lost. The current state of public health, public health policy, protocols, and attitudes about hygiene, sanitation and PPE (e.g. respirators) is dire and deteriorating both in medicine and the general public. And the issue of institutionalization and ostracism for those who support the above or are concerned about disease control, community care, community responsibility, protection and standard of care and safety in medical and community settings is happening today.
Reminds of Alfred Wegener. He was the first to propose the continental drift theory. His peers ridiculed him, and it wasn't until long after he died that the theory was accepted.
What a sad story, he was a huge asset but was misunderstood & rejected by the cult we still face today in this modern time🤔 Thanks for sharing, keep up the Great work👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
This is the truth of Science. In a lot of ways it can just as dogmatic, if not more so, than any ideology. Science is supposed the pursuit of truth, not matter what may come. Often times many scientists see themselves as the arbiters of truth, not it's seekers. We need more people like semmelweis. People willing to stand on business and actually care for and treat their patients. Not line their pockets at our expense.
Have known of his story for a long time. He is my medical hero.❤ Have to wonder how many of us exist because medical personnel started washing their hands.
It's sad his story wasn't discussed much in detail during my first year in nursing school. Nevertheless, his contribution continued to save lives, in the simplest way possible. Handwashing.
and this is an excellent example of experts not knowing what's best and resorting to group-think; that needs to be taught along with the history of covid-19 [cause I think they are very similar in how actual doctors were censored online for being against the prevailing theory of the time]... also it might not have just been about them not wanting to wash hands.... but as you stated... his social status as a commoner trying to tell them what to do. then *they* could discover it after his death. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
a sane man dies because of the insanity of others who knew they were killing other people by just not washing their hands. or at least letting a midwife operate the birth. he should have conducted another study on the sanity of those who study medicine at that time (and at this time)... wow wow wow he was going to find wonders ...
I'd bring him to the 1970s before he was admitted to the asylum. See how he changed the medical world. Survive all his abusers and naysayers. And finally live a peaceful life.
I have an inkling that this story, one about intelligent people who refused to consider observable facts in favor of theories, is quite likely to inspire... stupid people who refuse to consider observable facts in favor of conspiracy theories :P. You know: they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
They did not have modern soaps and disinfectants so washing your hands multiple times each day in the solutions available at that time took some time and could often lead to dry irritated skin.
@@falconeshield It certainly contributed to their dislike of the theory if you had to have irritated, dry itchy skin on both hands. Remember they could not just use modern moisturizer’s and could only use oils that would gather dirt and/or leave stains on everything you touched. ( not to mention you would need more caustic solutions to remove the oil, a vicious cycle ). It’s important not to judge people in the past by today’s standards, knowledge and technology.
@@imopman finally someone points that out. Yes ego likely played a bit of a role but no, it was not all of it. It is deeply irresponsible to judge people of history, or even recent generations, by what is now known. It completely removes that they just didn't know or that the situation was very different at the time. The amount of individual knowledge and context lost well outweighs whats been recorded and we need to keep that in mind. Ive heard we cant even read old blueprints for aircraft because the fundamental assumptions of what is common knowledge has changed so dramatically.
Good ideas are separated from bad ideas by whether they stand the test of time. Unfortunately, that particular test can take a generation or two to grade.
This is exactly what it was like for me while working at Sam's Club for a little under 2 months. I noticed egregious OSHA standards not being met or any applicable sop. None of the employees were aware of proper cleaning procedures or cared and nothing was washed properly. When I had addressed my general manager who approached me and told me he basically was unaware of food handling services and did not understand what the procedures were, let alone and sop. I was told my observations would be met with a raise and in a tribal manner. The entire food department turned on me simply because I wanted everyone to wear non-slip shoes wash their hands between tasks. Stop putting the boxes on the counters where they were cutting food without cutting boards on stainless steel tables and at the very least to wash the dishes when they were done properly. White correct cleaning agents. I have since left to pursue other interests however further research is always suggested. Enjoy your sans Club rotisserie chickens everyone!
Challenging the academics in the medical community is a difficult task but not an impossible one. For outsiders many things that happen in the medical community might feel and be seen as rigid but the truth is that hundreds of studies in multiple languages are being published every month that challenge and forward the medical knowledge on a global scale. The issue comes when said knowledge is implemented into a health policy or try to fit into a health system. As stubborn as some medical doctors might look, the public must understand that this career is a mix of art, experience and knowledge which is why some resist change but when the evidence is overwhelming even the most stubborn will accept and apply it. Biggest example that comes to mind is the discovery of H. Pylori and its correlation with Inflammation of the stomach lining and gastric ulcers. The pathologists knew the bacteria was in the stomach but no one ever made that connection until 2 Australian mad doctors decided to test the theory on themselves and sent shockwaves through all the medical community with their discovery.
Yes defenetly egotic issue! Just imagine how stupid the doctors felt when they realised this basic hygienic thing… like come on dirty hands spread diseases! And well educated people didn’t do this basic hygiene action! Even in medieval time this was the problem of most of the illnesses (lack of basic hygiene)
This guy was the genius that it was time he proved that wash your hands for better for better Mental Health and wonderful better health for the doctors but sadly his idea was everything seriously
The saddest part about this story is that he's not the first and will not be the last enlightened person to be made a pariah just for discovering the truth.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they knew what germs were. The whole concept of untouchability exists because of this. Imagine some leather work finishes his day's work, and goes to drink from the temple well without washing his hands. Shortly after, a bunch of people fall ill or die. They concluded that so ehow the leather worker was "impure" or "tainted" or that God was punishing them. While yes, Hinduism has a much more refined sense of purity, a lot of it used to be based on outdated concepts like "miasma". Like how if someone dies in your family, you can't eat food outside for 13 days. It was probably to avoid transmission from any bacteria caused by handling the body, but they didn't know that. For them, they thought the individuals had been "tainted" by some kind of energy that caused illness to others. Or how menstruating women weren't allowed out of the house. They were probably more susceptible to disease but no one knew exactly how or why, and they figured out that they were more likely to be safe if they just stayed indoors. Proto science is respectable, but still proto science. It's based on a observation of cause and effect rather than actual understanding. Still, the priests must be credited for paying attention. Similar.to.plague masks in Europe. They thought the smell was the thing causing the disease, but wearing a mask probably kept the bacteria out anyway.
When I worked in a Museum for medical history and did regular guided tours I talked about Semmelweis a lot, when adressing the history of reproductive health for women. Birth and womens health was in the hands of midwifes for centuries, and then in the 18- 19th century the male-dominated medical faculties decided to make it a "proper" medical field without much considering the experience that the women had who actually carried out this profession for years. This lead to great mistreatment and experimentation , especially on poor women, who had nowhere to go but public Hospital for delivery, especially when they carried pregnancies out of wedlock. The mortality rate of women and children was horendous during the beginning of the institutionization of womens medicine. Of course this got better over time but we still have a long way to go regarding womens health concerns and Research. Semmelweis Was a good doctor who took his Mission to Help his patients seriously. We can only hope for more physicians like him for the history to come
Who are you in the field? The answer is that it depends on the field and the change in paradigm. In some cases new ideas are embraced quickly while others face strong challenges. There is no one formula.
I think a strong regulation would solve the issue regarding cience innovation. That means, if a method is tested and proved to be efficient, then it should be registered and applied. The human progress cannot be jeopardized because of some stubborn old people that are too arrogant and ignorant to do their job better.
A person must pay greatly for the divine gift of creative fire. It is as though each of us was born with a limited store of energy. In the artist. the strongest force in his make-up, that is, his creativeness, will seize and monopolize this energy. leaving so little over that nothing of value can come of it. - Carl Jung
The only thing wrong about this video is that he did not discover germs or invent washing hands or whatever it was that you said. Scientists and doctors already had such practices for hundreds of years from Baghdad to Nanjing. However, the man was a hero who did introduce these ideas to his own people and times, and suffered greatly for it.
He received resistance from his peers, also good doctors, because he was stating that they were the direct cause of their new-mothers birthing-bed syndrome.
For some reason I always mix up/misremember Dr. Semmelweis and Joseph Lister when it comes to this. I have to wonder how many other professional looked at his data and thought "he might have something here" but were just too afraid to voice support. As much as I loved my career in surgery it was often a very "eat your young" environment,
Let us see, do we find the same attitudes in today's medical community? You betcha! More driven by greed these days. "That can't be right. I might lose part of my revenue stream!"
I hope I never become someone who refutes new knowledge and ideas. Ground breaking innovation is everywhere in the world right now. We need them so badly, so the next generation can live insteas of just survive.
Wow, how disgusting were people back then? "Hey fellow doctors! Let's try washing our hands after we're done performing autopsies before we deliver babies." 🌵*"NOOOOOOOOO!!"* 🌵
Diseases spread by doctors themselves are called iatrogenic diseases. They didn’t know about bacteria in Semmelweis’ day, but he guessed that the infectious agent was something like lycopodium powder, which they did have.
2:50 "...because its opponents eventually die," As long as it's true, that only death of "some" can "helps" spread the new ideas, I don't think it's appropriate explore and desire immortality. The evolution of ideas would stop. Imagine if our tree-dwelling ancestors were immortal... I think that the behavior of Dr. Semmelweis colleagues correlates very well with the contents of these videos: Bonhoeffer‘s Theory of Stupidity ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ww47bR86wSc.html Cipolla’s 5 Laws of Human Stupidity ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TGr8bMTSD4s.html its sad.
Some people really can't handle a minor inconvenience that could save lives can they? Edit: it's less one generation at a time and more the next generation is more open to the new idea and experiment with it. If it works they go with said new idea.
The shame being that the measures he advocated were such small easy ones to do and the benefits were both huge and demonstrable. Whenever you hear talk of "the science", remember Semmelweiss.
![The Dark Side of Science [The Sad Story of Dr Semmelweis]](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
