People create media by taking popular archetypes for granted and not understanding what made them great in the first place ? Consider me *S H O C K E D*
And now you let me wondering if an echi harem series could work with the male "protagonist" not showing up. Like for example if the series took place after said harem has already formed and the plot is that the girls have to rescue him because he was kidnaped or something and the whole series is about them idealising the guy to the point that their perception of him and how he really is end up being two completelly divorced characterizations. It could easily be played for laughs and pushed to its logical extreme, like the harem gaining more members along the way that never actually met the guy and just know him by the increasingly delusional descriptions of him from the original members of the group. I... I think I just got an idea for a comedic RPG.
The harem growing even though they never met the guy and only heard about him sounds like: the group set out to rescue the beautiful, kind princess and meeting other dudes who are in it for their own gain (woman, adventure, money, ...) if you just reverse the gender roles again. Might be an interesting idea for a harem rom-com though.
Classic Tsundere shows that. MC changes to become a better person, and so does the Tsundere character. This is even noticeable in modern animes, like Steins;Gate or Oregairu, where both parties evolve and become better people. And how this examples i´m giving you, is how human relationships work.
So that's why I've been slowly hating this type of character more often. Less complexity=less caring. Seem's simple enough...to exploit by making it more about hollow romantic leads.
It's why I've grown increasingly disenfranchised with anime in general. There will always be gems every cour and it's not always the case. But anime has increasingly pandered to pathetic weebs who would rather have validation than be challenged. As Digi pointed out, older protagonist + tsundere dynamics involved the tsundere calling out the protagonist on their BS. Now it's the protagonist who's already doing it right (Appeals to weebs projecting onto said protagonist), fixing the tsundere and charming the women.
+schewegburt Maybe thats why these harem male characters are so flat and boring to watch these days. Like Digibro said, its because they aren't being challenged by the tsundere anymore and thus does not support his character growth. The protagonist instead does not feel the need to change for the girl, he just accepts her attitude as who she is and thus she ends up changing for the guy who lacks a real personality due to not having to do anything for the girl to open up to him. Then there is the other side to it where if the girl is the one who should change for the guy, it never happens due to the guy challenging her. He doesn't call her out, they are just told they are supposed to be married. There is just nothing relatable to the lack of realistic logic in these relationships because of the dating sim writing formula.
+Lloyd Irving The main idea of a harem protagonist is that he is a vessel for the viewer to see themselves in. This is why 99% of them are about as interesting as a rock. This has become especially prevalent in the last 10 years where these kinds of anime have a huge following. At this point, they don't even need to try anymore. They could literally just make a basic harem template, copy it and make shit loads of money.
I think the problem also lies in writers nowadays being otaku that grew up watching harem anime and are just writing self satisfying fantasy. That's pretty much all isekai anime is.
This is probably a general issue with tropefication. Working elements of a story will be pulled out and slotted into contexts where they do not really work because it's a thing that people recognise.
This. Even 'deconstruction' often simply boils down to 'my expectations were subverted!'. It seems like much of storytelling has abandoned structural integrity and become entangled in its most recognizable cliche´s because of the attention economy of our modern media landscape. The idea that a book should hook you on the first page, a movie in the first couple minutes actually has serious reprecussions for structure. You *have* to - at least initially - write your characters in a way that audiences will be able to slot into preexisting boxes for them to even give your story a chance. You *have* to use tropes as shortcuts to concepts that readers are already familiar with to make that kind of hook work, - and then you are forced to maintain those qualities throughout the rest of the story to keep it consistent with what you have established.
@@Sphnxfr What really pisses me off is how so many stories are just predictable shlock that work like X because "That's how you make a story good and popular, right?" And then some random thing will be done wrong because "That's how you subvert expectations and make the best story ever, right?". It's lazy, but its writers and target audience think it's perfect.
Phreaker1997 I think it's possible you seriously overestimate the effect TV Tropes has on the quality of the mass media it documents. This shit always happened to all tropes, it's just now we have the vocabulary to recognize it.
To me it has always seemed like the male version of the fantasy of fixing someone. Outside of anime it’s usually associated with girls choose choosing arrogant, proud, terrible boyfriends whom they believe they can fix through the power of love. It’s unhealthy either way in my opinion.
I dated someone and convinced myself I could "fix her". The result being a one sided relationship with a emotional unstable person. Some people don't want to be fixed, they cling to and identify with there problems because it helps them not feel guilty about how they treat people.
@@delete4198 Happens more then you think. A lot of girls have a beauty and the beast fantasy. They want to tame some wild bad boy. I do agree though, a lot of guys have 0 standards and it's disgusting.
"A fetishistic representation of an aesthetic crafted with no thematic purpose" applies to things in anime far beyond the scope of archetypal tsunderes. I would even say that describes the majority of the industry at this point.
So Tsundere's have become a Lv 3 cliché? People use them in stories just because they've seen them in other anime, without knowing why they're supposed to be there, or how/why the cliché appeared in the 1st place?
I think it's a case of cross-pollination and diminishing returns, which I think Digi sort of alluded to. Tsundere started off in anime, they became a cliche that got transplanted into visual novels, anime adapted those visual novels, people watched those adaptations which inspired them to write light novels, which in turn got adapted until the concept of tsundere kept getting diluted
To be honest if you take a closer look at archetypes in general especially ancient ones you quickly realize that most people who use them in stories do so unconsciously. But that's what seperates primal and general archetypes from newer (and more specific) ones for me.
It's the same case with Isekai stories using video game stats in a fantasy world. Stats were just an abstraction for D&D games as a rough simulation, not something characters in a fantasy story should be pulling out.
I originally thought it was merely just further infantilizing the female character. Unable to maturely process their sexual attraction to the male character, they instead lash out with more familiar hostility.
So in essence: Tsundere back then: "I am this way because it's apart of my back story and helps develop my relationship with the protagonist" Tsundere now: "I am this way because writers block, personality archetype, it's currently trendy and funny"
Cherrie Getison It’s disappointing that that’s the route anime has taken, since while nobody wanted to be Shinji, the audience could understand and identify with at least some of the characters because they were just that deep. I even had a friend that fixed her relationship because seeing Shinji, a teen with the weight of the world forced onto his shoulders without proper preparation or appreciation, have his angsty dissociation explored allowed her to better understand both the callousness and the hypocrisy inherent to saying things like “Be a man! Suck it up! Do your job!” While expecting support, love, compassion, and respect in return. There was something in NGE for everyone because the characters were justifiable and humanized even if you hated them. Nowadays romcom LN adaptation trash just caters to the lowest common denominator by going so far in the opposite direction that anyone can project themselves onto the bland MC. It’s a damned shame.
I feel like Nichijou had a parody of this with Sasahara and Misato. Misato's tsundere levels are so insanely over-the-top, it feels like a big "f- you" to all those one-dimensional tsundere characters popping up everywhere. also i never really liked the tsundere trope to begin with but that's just a me thing
I dislike it as well. Seems one sided too, as the Tsundere in the original sense never really addresses her own latent issues, as she's used more to make the male character grow and change, and he has no effect on her, outside of a cartoonish level of personality 180 when they finally get together.
@@SakuraAvalon The main reason why I don't usually like tsundere, apart from its sheer detachment from reality, is because it kinda perpetuates the idea that "if a girl says no she actually means yes!!!!" which is... pretty gross
Eh, the original Tsundere wasn't like that. From what I've seen, the girl said no and the guy said no, but events sticking them together caused them to get closer, but there's still this giant denial of the feelings from both sides. However, I have not kept up with the modern Tsundere.
In this past few years, the only Tsundere I considered good, is Tohsaka Rin. Not only she's not abusive. She's also tried to change Shirou so that he could be happy while staying true to his ideal.
Also in Tohsaka Rin works very well becouse: - her acting is justified by her inner conflict between her feelings towards other people and selfish magus upbringing - this acting does exist also outside of romantic context (so she would deny being genuine friends with anyone) - this acting is obviously just acting and it's clear she's doing this just for herself, like everybody who knows her a bit can see through it (outside maybe Sakura, but Sakura has good reason to) - she can do stuff as inviting people on dates and shows other signs of affection, she just usually claim that she's doing that only for her own interests or that isn't too deep, becouse "I'm a magus"
I recently realized the whole "push pull" relationship with a guy and a tsundere from reading Muv Luv. It was really interesting seeing how both characters growing together as people can make for a great romance. Now I need to go back and rewatch shows with good tsundere's more attentively.
I think a story that captures this characterization well and demonstrates growth in both characters is Fate/Stay Night - Unlimited Blade Works. Rin and Shiro start off as certain characters (Rin portraying something like a tsundere) but both going through changes, not just Rin. There's also a good explanation as to why she is the way she is at the beginning of the story. Shiro evolves a good deal as well and that makes him more mature.
Well in Steins;Gate both Kurisu and Okabe are tsundere, not being honest and hiding it through different means. As for Tohsaka unfortunately the anime didn't really do justice to her, they pushed a bit too hard on the tsundere cliche. Another good tsundere would be Christianne from Majikoi, but she act like that mainly because she disapprove of Yamato's way of doing things.
GetMekdBro “Shows with good tsunderes” are few and far in between. Because they either serve the purpose of playing into a power fantasy in which the unrealistically perfect but super bland MC gets the chick who’s l my rejecting him because she secretly likes him, or the violence is played for laughs because of the cultural irony inherent to the ‘silly’ idea that a woman could both accomplish and get away with abusing a male. Almost never is a tsundere a deep relatable character.
I think Love Live (yes, the idol show) had a neat twist on the 'self-betterment' tsundere. Maki goes through the typical arc of opening herself up to other people, but since there aren't any major male characters in the show, that development instead comes from exploring her flaws with the help of other characters, and her taking active steps to change herself. There's none of that fetishistic 'I wanna save this girl' pandering - it's just a nice coming-of-age tale. So the nu-Tsundere archetype _does_ have the potential to tell interesting character stories - it's just up to the writers to view these characters as characters and not just trophies for the MCs.
That's my primary reason why I consider Love Live as my favorite anime of all time, because of the change of pace from the Shōnen and Harem anime that became mainstream over the years. Especially in regards to Maki, who people would assume I'd hate, given my dislike towards Tsundere characters, but actually grew on me and isn't just a typical Tsundere. What makes Maki work (and not somebody like Misty from Pokémon or Louise from Familiar of Zero, for example) is that she isn't a love interest to a male lead and she isn't overly aggressive or hyperactively violent. If anything, Maki is perhaps my favorite out of the whole Tsundere trope.
+Adrian Harper "What makes Maki work (and not somebody like Misty from Pokémon or Louise from Familiar of Zero, for example) is that she isn't a love interest to a male lead and she isn't overly aggressive or hyperactively violent." Yup! I'd also add that the show gives actual psychological reasons for her tsundere behaviour, and that her arc of opening up to people ties in neatly with the show's themes of bonds and communication. She's just an exceptionally well-constructed character (who unfortunately still gets flak for being 'just another tsundere').
At least Asuka had a reason to be like that, what with her being a total mental case from trauma endured in her childhood and the goddamn war she was fighting. Also Shinji just wouldn't get in the damn robot.
Tsundere acts as an ego check to protagonist, making them realize what they need to change about themselves to be a better person and or connect to that girl. Gotta remember that
I'm sorry but I thought they just did the stupid shit they do because they thought that assaulting the protagonist will allow the feelings they have for them to go away. I didn't know that this was the reason for them, maybe if I tell myself this when watching anime I will be able to tolerate them
Just cause this guy said it doesn't make it true. They and anyone else can do that. Don't apply his idea as a gospel. I found this video to be confused. It conflates too many things.
And this is exactly why Iris didn't work. Ash wasn't the rookie anymore, and Iris's criticism was just plain old hypocrisy as she was avictim too all the same mistake.
Interesting how the male dichotomy of the Tsundere character development has been slowly written off in favor of the girl flip-flopping into acquiescence. It's as if the writer's don't understand relationships or women in general, and are accepting the guy just being there as "enough." A relationship is a two-way street, with two people changing and adjusting as a matter of survivability and mutual gain. The male character might as well be a mannequin for all he's worth in these more recent shows.
Except most clasical stundere's mentioned didn't change their personality much, if at all. The relationship of Okabe and Makise from stein;s gate is a far more believable love story involving tsundere characters than that of the familiar of zero or ranma 1/2.
@@Dragonoid269 To be fair, Ranma 1/2, even with all of its success, was rushed causing lots of plot holes. Plus, the story was more aimed at boys, so the action and comedy were what Rumiko was focusing on.
Tsunderes in theroy should work but you hit the nail on the head, they are made just to be fetishised and nothing more. Id like to see an anime centered around a girl who suffers due to her pride and ends up snapping because of her tsundere qualities. Give it some depth and weight.
While not in the same circumstances as Asuka, Taiga from Toradora doesn't have tsundere qualities by design, but are brought forward because of family issues and insecurity.
I honestly hate most Tsunderes, especially the ones in harem mangas that are also the first girl and the only one the main character gets in a relationship with in the end, which annoys me even more.
I'm probably in the minority, but I personally can't stand Tsundere character types. While there are a few exceptions that I've tolerated (Stella Vermillion and Rin Tohsaka, for instance), a large majority have annoyed me beyond belief. And to be honest, I have a lot of examples as to why I dislike the trope; Misty from Pokémon, Asuka from Evangelion, Naru from Love Hina, Louise from The Familiar of Zero, Chitoge from Nisekoi, Julis from The Asterisk War, Taiga from Toradora, Sakura from Naruto, most of the harem from Infinite Stratos, the list goes on. Perhaps what gets to me is how people try to justify them is because of the male protagonist for being dense, single-minded, or something to that affect. I dunno, I just don't like overly aggressive girls who get violent towards the male lead for no reason other than projecting the writer's masochism or following trends.
Stella and Rin is okay but you dislike Asuka? lol. I don't mind Tsundere when it's does well but most modern anime, anime made in the last 8-10 years specifically, just throws them in with little to no effort to actually make them interesting characters outside of the typical tropes.
Its kinda what made steins gates romance work for me, it was a both ways path both Kurisu and Okabe learn from the other and allowed themselves to slowly be more open and sincere with the other
The tsundere trope is weird because women dont actually criticize men consciously in the way tsundere characters do. I think tsundere characters are a personification of how men criticize themselves in order to be desirable to a woman
Yukinoshita along with Yui helped A LOT on the development and growth of Hachiman´s character; which I would say, is the main selling point of the novels (Oregairu, SNAFU, whatever suits your boat)
I love when tropes are discussed like this. Thanks for the historical context too. A coverage of Kudere would be nice. Never actually understood that trope.
Tsundere are so overwhelming in anime that I get annoyed by them almost immediately when they pop up. It takes a lot for me to like Tsundere character nowadays.
there is so many trashy this days, no wonder I dislike them, they were the first I saw of Tsun how about call them just Bitchdere?`because seems like only the past got good tsunderes, or most of them?
To be honest, it SHOULD take a lot for you to like a person who displays serious bitch tendencies. Either the protagonist grows up and stops being a moron (aka has a character arc) and the tsundere stops delivering her legitimate but scathing/bitchy criticism, or the tsundere herself has the character arc and moves past the emotional/mental hangups that cause her to react like a bitch. Otherwise the character is just a bitch and shouldn't be likeable.
@@overkill1340 Even in the classic sense, it's too one sided. BOTH of them should grow up. Like, one of the things that bothered me about Ranma 1/2 was that the bulk of the blame fell on Ranma even though Akane had at least 50% of the blame (and let's not even touch on how the fiancee situation came through because Genma engaged his son to so many women). Don't get me wrong, Ranma has his faults an dis rightly called out for some, but AKANE is never called out for her bullshit like he is, and if anyone does they are framed as being unreasonable at best. (And this is without even touching on the fact that anyone who puts up with Akane on a romantic level while she still has her issues AND doesn't acknowledge that she is in the wrong has got to be nothing less than a saint, which is not fair on whoever her partner is. Ranma can at least accept that he is being criticized without turning into a violent maniac) Like, yes, all of the girls in Ranma 1/2 need to deal with their issues, but the whole point is that no one is perfect and unbiased, which is where the comedy gold comes from. Granted, the end result is that a lot of people have their favorite pairings and some have very valid reasons for why Ranma would give up on the concept of marrying Akane and find a way out of the engagement. This is kind of why I am more interested in male Tsundere, because their whole arc is about growing and dealing with their issues that causes them to be temperamental jerks at times, not because of romance, but because their attitude is getting in the way of their goals or really is causing them problems. If a female Tsundere does this, they would be more interesting.
I actually like(d) the tsundere: In a world where 'perfect' female romantic interests fell into this archetype of unbound kindness and acceptance (and passivity, that for some reason was considered 'feminity'), the tsundere was the only one girl who told the protagonist "no, fuck you, you are not going to get away with this shit". (Yes, please.) I adhere to everything said in the video. I agree: the authors today don't seem to get tsunderes (Akane Tendo would be a good example of proper tsundere), they make them unbearable and don't understand even their protagonists. (Plus, responding to what someone else said in the comments: today's tsundere authors deserve to burn in their own personal "no is yes" pit of hell.) Problematic thing with the tsundere? Normalized female-to-male violence, it being seen as comedic. TL;DR > Video=Best. Description. of this problem. EVER.
This is my newest fav Digi vid. Soooooo much of this is stuff that's been stewing in my head for years; its super satisfying to hear it all laid out in such a logical way with no holds barred. 10/10, will watch again and again.
Easily one of your best videos in a while. As probably the most knowledgeable person on RU-vid about anime and anime history, it only makes sense that your best work comes from the perspective only you can bring.
One of the best insights into the former version of The Tsundere is Hitomi from Visions of Escaflowne. Van comes off as a rude jerkoff, while Allen contrasts himself as the diligent knight. Hitomi bickers with Van while fawning over Allen. But it's only when Hitomi sees Van's sincerity in growing as a person and Allen's disregard for his own child that the back and forth between Hitomi and Van stops, and they come to truly love one another.
I really love your videos focusing on one major aspect of across multiple shows than on multiple aspect for only one show. They come across much more uncontroversial and solid.
I think Evangelion and Steins;Gate are some of the best representations of the Tsundere dynamic as there are legitimate psychological reasons for the Tsundere to act the way they do and both them and the male love interest have to learn and change. I think placing the burden of the dynamic on only one of them leads to poor storytelling.
Something that i love about louise of zero no tsukaima is than the tsundere actitude that she has is in response of her royal position and not being capable of be a good magician, making her to take an actitude to protect her pride and royal power she believes she deserves, not accepting her weakness and trying to overcome that disability
I'd love to see an anime where the male lead reacts to the Tsundere slap by punching her in the face. If you are willing to hit someone, be prepared for retaliation.
I think it's just the normal course of tropes in general. Like the examples Egoraptor gave for the evolution of tropes in Zelda games, people will eventually care more about the "thing" than the actual reasons behind the "thing" being there. It's only natural that we become fascinated by the end product of the tsundere as an attractive trait, without actually reflecting on what made the tsundere attractive in the first place, and look to replicate it. In the end, the tsundere trope nowadays function just because of the collective otaku experience of having witnessed actual tsunderes done well in the past. I'm guessing that's why someone seeing tsundere characters nowadays, without having seen the backlog of old anime establishing the trope, would find them immediately obnoxious, or out of nowhere (there is an example in a lot of comments here). It's up to us to start identifying the shortcuts the authors are taking, wanting to have the payoff (of a tsundere) without the actual effort (of building a logical context and giving it a purpose). The good thing is that it's also only natural that people will start to get bored of the trope eventually, so it will have to reinvent itself to survive. PD: Keitaro actually changes a lot by the end of Love Hina for the sake of his relationship with Naru, which then puts all the weight in Naru to change because her tsundere attitude starts getting in the way in a really extreme manner, it's a really fun ending. I blame this misconception of the character to the fact the the final OVA's weren't as popular and came like two years after the original adaptation... long live Love Hina.
Am I the only person that hates tsunderes? I mean seriously, I have heard that shows like Tora Dora were great, but the first time I saw that girl slapping the crap out of the dude, I was like, "Nope, I'm out." I just have a very difficult time dealing with any people and/or characters that feel that they can act that way, and that any person is supposed to just accept or deal with that until they decide it's "safe" for them to act like a normal human being. I had the exact same issue when I started watching Bakemonogatari. I mean a dude saves a girl's life and then in their next encounter, she staples his cheek, and then instantly he wants to "help" her?! What happened to the scene where he beat her into the pavement first? I mean I know that sounds extreme, but come on man, what is that? The only thing that kept me watching that show is the simple fact that Senjogahara is flat blazing, and I had to keep watching her, and I hated myself for doing so. But the show is pretty good once you get into it, so it's okay. Anyhow, does anyone else feel me?
I know what you mean i really hated Toradora because of that abusive loli. She ruins the anime with her childish attitude, she was useless from beginning till the end and never grew as a character. Also the last 5 episodes were very bad imo. I dont know how people liked this when there are romance anime done much better. A good example “ano natsu de matteru” and “tsuki ga kirei”.
Jay Anderson A lot of comments about people that hate tsunderes and on anime communities threads about how “annoying” tsunderes are and you are asking if you are the only one that hates them.
Ano Natsu much better romance than Toradora? Nice joke. More like you only hate Tsundere and not the actual show or characters and spit shit because of your liking.
X Ramon Yea dude sure the tsundere is the only bad thing about this shit show. Like the idiot MC suddenly changing his mind about the girl he loves without a single hint as to why he makes that choice. She loving him was understandable and pretty obvious but him loving her is beyond stupid and makes no sense. Even by spending the most time together, if the other person treats you like trash even if you do all the housework, sorry but only a masochist would like such a person. And they suddenly want to marry? lol The other characters? They were just there to make the main couple get together at the end. Glasses dude had a mini arc about the president and thats basically it. Minori had a very likable character but she also had no reason to reject him. Because sure better hurt youself when you love someone for so long, so a girl with mental and family issues who does not bother fixing them until the end can take him. Talking about how stupid the characters act. Ami was probably the best character and the only one with an IQ over zero who knew what was going on near the end by throwing some hints here and there. She was the most developed character who actually had a good chemistry with the MC but sadly her lack of screentime and the fact that she never tried was very frustrating, though i understand her situation. This dude literally confessed to the girl he loved and 2 episodes later he suddenly loves the abusive loli. Then she just disappears without telling him anything and the last scene is her literally hitting him again showing how much she has grown as a character xD What a great romance plot dude. I have seen alot of anime where my favourite doesn’t win but you know what atleast they have good writing and a good cast. By the way ano natsu was only 12 episodes and it still does everything better with its characters and their development.
Despite only being made in the late 2000s, Louise embodies everything that's wrong with the tsundere. Nowadays, we're a lot more aware of female abusers. Zero no Tsukaima wouldn't fly today.
THANK YOU! This is something I've been thinking about for years but just never had the opportunity or time to talk about in any creative way. Now you've done it, so thanks.
So in other words, Tsundere is a wish fulfillment fantasy of a girl still showing interest in an otherwise inadequate man and becoming a catalyst of his personal growth instead of ignoring his existence. I think I see the appeal now.
I keep coming back to this video every so often because it's such a good breakdown of things. Almost to the point that I'd consider it a must-watch for anime fans.
Maybe the reason why the focus isn't put on the male lead to change is because those characters are often meant to be generic audience-inserts. Putting the focus on them to change would require establishing them as their own character. #temariwasbesttsunderedonefine
You're pretty close to the truth here. I believe the main reason why modern stories present static main characters is because the author themselves refuse to see and learn from their failings. Most people nowadays have this idea that the don't need to change, they only need to find someone who accepts them. And so when tsundere, which is a character trope used to bring about change happens, they loathe it because they don't want to change. They can't see the need to fix their problems, so the girl who is forcing that change(regardless of whether she gets violent or not, and some tsundere are actually quite fair and don't get violent) is a bitch. "Why should I change when I can simply find someone who accepts me the way I already am?" Ever wonder why most relationships fail nowadays? I can assure you the above statement is one of the main reasons. No one is willing to compromise anymore, it's pretty much "either do things my way, or go away" nowadays.
I agree with you both. From the only modern anime I have seen this kind of happening is in Oregairu. And I say "kind of", because the main girl (can´t recall her name), her character proceeds to devolve from a secure and independent character, to the opposite to some degree. Sure, the MC evolves aswell, since he starts to accept others as they are, and wants to change due to how his personality is destroying what he has been able to create (friendships), so his character starts to evolve. From this video, Oregairu would be a mix from the original and modern Tsundere archetype.
In complete honesty, I think this is one of the best videos you've ever made. Snappy, concise, insightful, and able to articulate and expand upon in just 8 minutes the thoughts that have been circling my head throughout my entire anime watching experience. Well done.
I remember being disgruntled when I watched Zero no Tsukaima way back when that nobody on RU-vid who's opinion matters had reviewed it or analysed it at the time. Now friggin Digital Brother comes along and drops a hint that there is a whole lot more to how the show handles relationships and just to the show itself than I picked up on. Thanks, now I may have to waste my whole weekend watching all of it again.
I hated Louise and never rooted for her to get with Saito. There's no reason they should be together, and Saito was there because of extenuating circumstances. Normally no one would put up with getting fucking whipped, starved and constantly screamed at for no reason. I wouldn't treat a dog that way, much less my love interest! Saito should have distanced himself from Louise as much as possible, maybe choosing a better girl like Siesta or just staying single.
Connor Pearson. Are you nuts? I wouldn't. Digi can have his stupid opinion on the Louise and Saito pairing, but he's not swaying me that easily. It was disgusting and abusive. There's absolute no reason why Saito should ever fall in love with such a bitch that treats him that way, literally enslaving him and not even thinking of him as a human. She straight up tells him he was just some lowly familiar in episode 2 when she started undressing in front of him.
I will defend snafus image in saying the point is that he doesn't want to be apart of it or anything that goes on. Hes the school loner that sits at the back of the class and is pretty much invisible to the world, hence why hes in the background.
That it´s one clever point at the poster. Besides, the story overall pretty much revolves mostly around the MCs decisions, but also explores the evolution of the side characters too (hell, even the ones that are portrait as antagonists to him are explored), so saying that the story of Oregairu is focused on the girls it´s really a weak statement.
Well to be fair, the side characters that evolve were almost all female (anime only mind you, I don't know about the novels). Hayama is the only male that changes. But I will still defend Oregairu as that show does NOT have characters for the sake of fetish fuel.
I think in Asuka's case, chasing over Kaji wasn't because she actually wanted a mature man, she just wanted to be with one to show that she herself was mature. But that's not how maturity works and Kaji rejected her outright for it. She then accidentally and rightfully fell for Shinji, a scared child with abandonment issues, someone in many ways similar to her. And when Shinji was on his way of becoming stronger and more mature, instead of being happy, she started experiencing fear, jealousy and frustration.
I still don't understand on why people like tsundere characters. Personally, their personality is too obnoxious for me to support their relationship with the main character. I love a little bashfulness and pride from the female character/s in any anime. But when that bashfulness is taken too far, I lose my support for that character. And in most anime nowadays, the thin line between a reasonable and likeable tsundere and an unreasonable and stupid tsundere is getting more distorted.
Personally, the only appeal of tsundere characters I've found has been agreement with their anger towards a hapless protagonist that I despise. There's this strange sense of validation I feel when a character openly complains that the protagonist is an idiot that needs to stop being terrible out of a genuine desire to have the idiot that we are watching *actually* improve. And due to the meta-knowledge that this show is crap, I get a rush of ironic joy in reframing the romantic arc as an horrific transformation from angry about their attraction towards a loser into furious at being partially mind-controlled by the plot towards this schlub. It's not a very good reason, frankly, but when I watch crap for silly reasons I find myself latching on to all kinds of irony and rejections of the show's poorly executed conceit.
And to me, it get's especially grating when that bashfulness is treated in an unrealistic manner, as in, they tend to never suffer consequences for their behavior and that their pride is just some front to hide some insecurities that somehow magically makes all the shit they did forgiven.
I think it's basically the same reason the "girls like badboys" thing exists. It's "sweet" to beleive that, out of everyone in the world, you're (since most people self insert) the only person that that girl is open and vulnerable with. It's similar to the ice queen trope. It's the idea of exclusivity and changing/caring for somebody.
This is an excellent analysis. I've said for a while that it's likely that this archetype has been corrupted over the years. In Toradora, both Ryuji and Taiga grew as people as their feelings grew. On the other hand, a lot of what are now considered typical tsundere characters are the ones who change because they realize that their romantic interest is already what they need and their apprehension is the problem with their happiness.
LMAO at Digibro consistent prodding at Oregairu when Hachiman is the entire selling point of the series. Just because he doesn't physically take up space on the cover art, does not mean he lacks importance. Without him the series would not have fans, that's factual.
7:41 "we've watched anime romcoms shift focus away from the male protagonist" and then there is a picture of Oregairu. I'm not sure if this is Digi's doing or if Davoo is just trying to be a smart asshole, but either way, it's not accurate in the slightest.
I know, that was my point, I'm just saying what Digi is implying with this editing. His personal vendetta towards a show shouldn't supercede the facts.
Oregairu pretty much focueses on the evolution of Hachiman, and to some point, his friends. We all are totally aware that the main girls evolve by the plot (Yukino and Yui), but the one that made complete jumps in character development is him. Hell, even if the video goes by the promotional image, it still accurately illustrates how Hachiman is at the beginning (since that´s S1 image). Hachiman rejects, despises, and avoids getting involved with others, since he tried to open to other people, but this backfired him, thus becoming a close-minded person. The poster is done well, and the series overall it´s really good, and actually showcases how actual relationships (not only in this scenario, that is a high school) develop and evolve.
Honestly, just happy to see you making content again, maybe it was just RU-vid not telling me you were making it, but I missed your bluntness and analysis. Ride on, Ride on.
7:40 I've been noticing this and haven't said anything, and maybe this is Davoo's fault, or they weren't actually talking about the series and just book covers, but it seems like Digi will do absolutely anything and take any opportunity to paint Oregairu in a bad light. Hachiman is very much a focus on the series, and frankly, you'd be hard pressed to find ANY protagonist with more relative screen time than him.
Tbh, Hachiman is one of the few modern MC that I actually like and can relate, since well...he feels like an actual human character. He isn´t like the usual paper-flat MC that most series get, but it´s one portrayed REALLY well, and it´s accurate to reality.
i utterly hate the Tsundere character, what was once a well thought out character has now been shoe horned into every single fukking anime. i started judging how good an anime by how much they use the trope to propel the story forward. the less the better if it doesn't have one even better. now to be fair an example of a good Tsundere Character would be Casca from Berserk there is an entire backstory as to why she behaves the way she does. shitty Tsundere characters imo are the ones that beat up the prot in the first chapter. sure it was funny the first time i saw it but after literally seeing it being used in almost every anime out there you get tired of it.
When i think about it, in the end both narratives spin around men. One is about men resolving internal conflicts and growing (to fullfill a proper role as partner for the tsundere), and the other is made for men only to see some dere after the tsun (without narrative purpose). Also it seems that even most shoujos, wich are targeted at a female audience, are mainly about the male protagonist character development. Im speaking generally. I would love to hear your detailed view about this (if possible) bc you comment very little in shoujos Ps: nice channel, keep the good work
The protagonist is usually male, so naturally. Though I see no reason why the trope woukdn't work with a female protagonist. The only issue would be the general notion that a guy hitting a girl in the ways tsundere are infamous for is seen as unacceptable.
I've seen it done with guys. Usually the male tsundere is verbally abusive as opposed to physically. If his attitude is used to push the girl through character development it's pretty much done by negging. However, usually it plays out much the same as some of the female tsundere stories with the girl basically fixing him and turning him full dere often heavily influenced by the bad boy troupe.
tsundere it is done with males, yes, but most of the time or it is made just for the sake of dere after the tsun, or we are given an contextualization about why he is like that and then the plot goes about the female protagonist "fixing" him in a way that the character development going on is his and not hers. It's never a stundere guy that tries to make her realize how to grow. That's what I meant
Vegeta is a tsundere character. And he´s one of the few characters in DB overall that has quite the interesting character developing. From a murderous space warrior to suddenly become a father that loves and cares for them it´s quite the development. Unfortunaly though, his Super version has some of the traits of modern Tsunderes.
The Tsundere has gone the way of Pride and Prejudice. What was in its conception a nuanced character(plot) has become a flanderized stereotype(cliché).
This really helped me understand what a cliché is. I still haven't wrapped my head around it fully, but I now understand why Julice from Ass war is a bs tsundere and Makise Kurisu is a good one, and why the first one is a cliché character. Good explanation 👍
Ha watching the Pokemon marathon on Twitch I realized that Misty was actually a pretty solid tsundere that didn't resort to violence all the time, or really anytime.
6:40 The best type of character arc for these types of characters would be if both of them had to change. I mean, that's kind of what real life relationships can be, both people in the relationship realizing their faults and that they have to improve themselves in order to be there for the person they love. Unfortunately, anime usually seems disinterested in presenting romantic relationships as two way, mutual partnerships, even though that's exactly what they are.
I like the type of tsundere who A: doesn’t harm anyone B: doesnt have a “crush” on anyone (I’ll explain) C: just doesn’t like talking about their feelings and become a little angry if anyone crosses their boundaries So what I mean is, a less intense person who just doesn’t like talking about their feelings. So I guess you would just call that a Tsun- Person? Not relating to love, but relating to their personality.
I don't give care why Tsndere characters do what they do I just hate them. There is no reason you can say that will convince me that Tsndere need to exist in anime. I just want for once to see and anime where the Tsndere finally confesses her feelings to the dude and he says hell no. Why would I want to get with someone that physically abused me. And then walks away an leaves her there in tears. Or even better yet I want to see an anime where when the Tsndere gets physically abusive. The MC fights back instead of just letting her get away with abusing him.
Chivalry of the Failed Knight, but the former tsundere gets proposed to. The main girl gets over her 'tsun' phase literally near the beginning of the series and becomes more 'dere' as it continues.
Gross exaggeration. In a comedy, physical comedy is a gag. tsundere are not violent inherently. You've probably got a caricature idea or you've only watched rather bad works. Basically, read good stuff and you'll avoid this.
Seeing the naivety or insecurity of someone can be amusing (or even endearing) when authors add depth or twists to it. It can also push interest to confront the person which is what they might be wanting anyway. Partial character spoilers: Michiru Matsushima (Grisaia VN) She suffers greatly from failures and insecurities explored mostly in her past. She comes to notice that some mistakes she makes offers amusement to others. She learns she can find some happiness this way (as a class clown) and refines her approach to ideas she's seen in media (like tsundere.) The lines blur between her act and herself when she uses humor to both bring amusement to those around her and to cope with her insecurities. This also serves as a vehicle to bring her closer to others while giving a way to maintain distance if things get too uncomfortable.
Wow, I actually really like this analysis of the tsundere character. This puts a lot of things into perspective that I previously didn't have the words for. Thanks, Digibro!
You could have also talked about how in a lot of 90s Shoujo Anime the main protagonist is basically a Tsundere, Sailor Moon, Wedding Peach, Kamikazi Kaitou Jeanne, ect.
Lol, True that. Not just shoujo, we also have tsundere characters in battle manga. "Rivals" and "Evil Guy Turned Good" are also perfect examples of Tsundere, they start violent and competitive, and become friendly later on when they solve their problems. And they are also used to bring changes to the main character.
this was actually super insightful and educational and serves as an inspiration for me to want to write a story involving a tsundere in the traditional light. Or at least take elements from this into my own writing. great job
I'd hesitate to classify Stella from Chivalry of a Failed Knight as Tsundere. Her only real Tsun-tsun moments are generally justified as being a normal reaction to the situation, and lacks the general abrasiveness of the Tsundere when dealing with people that didn't just walk in on her while she was changing. Likewise her getting into a fight with Protagonist Guy Ikki wasn't actually her idea, it was suggested by a 3rd party because settling disputes with fights is just how they do things in Rakudai's world. If she's Tsundere then she's the fastest Tsun-to-dere switch I've ever seen in Anime.
Thank you so much for this video. It helped put into perspective for me a trope that I have always wanted to take a crowbar to, and wedge out of existence.
yeah, we live in a era now when Japanese anime studio creators who only keep making a lot of Random tropes, cliches with another God forsaken High School genre the Umpteenth billionth time in History, frickin stop Japan, for the record they won't, ever cause I check and seen "anime news network" and so far about non of it even good, but hey it kinda good for you in a way, you get to make more videos about it like that "The Ass War anime" you did, I at least will look forward to that in the future, but yeah this industry, need, to, change quick, even though its not and Japan over there won't listen, it will change eventually, even if it take's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY!! LOOOOOOOOONGEEEEEERR!! it will change one day, why?, because if the "World" changes, so do Japan and it's anime, so we can only wait and hope for when that Destination is coming.
