The Development of the North Carolina class - The Nelson that never was 

Pinned post for Q&A :)

US: "What exactly are the British doing with the Nelson class?" UK: "What exactly are we doing with the Nelson class?"

Just imagining US naval architects attempting to figure out what 5D chess the British were playing with the Nelsons is sending me.

"The Nelsons must be battlecarriers" Had me laughing more than it should

"The Nelsons must be battlecarriers" - in a blinding flash of understanding, I now know how WoWs ended up with the USN Hybrid abominations.

I know it's been said before many times by better authorities than myself, but the North Carolina class were a game changer in the Pacific war. Firepower that rivaled anything Japan could put to sea with the exception of the Yamato class, fast enough to stay with the fleet carriers on all but the speed runs that Halsey preferred for his raids and armored to stand up to newer USN 14" shells, perhaps even Nagato's older 16" weapons. When she first appeared I don't think the Japanese realized just how heavy NC's AA armament was until the first time she opened up in defense of USS Enterprise with the Japanese aviators quickly learning the meaning of "no fly zone." I'm a sailor of the 1980s and 90s and I was absolutely infatuated during my all to brief visit to this ship. In comparison to most modern ships she is cramped but well laid out. In a word I would describe her design as "elegant." She is truly worth a visit.

My gift to you, my friend, for all you do and all you've done to help other RU-vidrs. The music, 'Admiral Drach Arriving' is an original work, registered and copyrighted under US law. It is yours, Sir.

I grew up getting to wander around on the North Carolina almost every summer whilst growing up in the late 60's. My family lived in central North Carolina, and we would always spend my parent's annual two week vacation heading down to Carolina Beach just below Wilmington. The first ever model I put together on my own, was of the North Carolina, that my parents purchased for me at the Memorial gift shop itself. It lead to a lifelong love affair with ships and all things naval, a 20 year career in the USN, and many good memories and good friends along the way.

In about 1990, as a 19 year old with more than a little interest in WW2, I had the pleasure of meeting a friend of a friend's grandpa at his home in Eastern Pennsylvania. Grandpa was very welcoming, he pulled out his photo album to reveal that he had served aboard the USS North Carolina during WW2. I recall being very interested but having little idea what to ask him. Can't recall his name or what his job was, except that he'd been young and an enlisted man during his service. Things he told me that I hadn't been previously aware of were that only part of the ship was armored and that when at general quarters, every man's post was within this armored citadel. When the main guns fired, every man had better be at their post because the concussion was likely to throw anyone outside, overboard. Every crewman knew this and the guns never just fired randomly, of course. (News to me at the time, I had pictured the guns just going off at all times of day, I suppose). I also recall asking if he was ever in a battle against other ships and feeling very disappointed when he said he hadn't. I hope I wasn't rude about it, like "oh dude, you never did anything cool." I recall a similar silly thought during my teen years when someone said they'd had occasion to meet astronaut Charlie Duke, 10th man on the moon. I vividly recall snorting and saying, "if it wasn't Neil Armstrong, it didn't matter." Ah, foolish youth.

I found the pictures of the slipway being built as fascinating as the ship! From a mudbank to a full-scale contruction dock! Kudos for including/finding those!

The funny thing is that neither the US nor the British designed ships with the FULL INTENT on CHEATING the treaty system, whereas all the Japanese designs were intended to do exactly that. It is not hard to do... You can easily make a 50000 ton battleship a 35000 ton vessel if you do not install 2 or the three turrets and remove all the secondaries while replacing accessible deck replacing armor with plywood. The intent is to have all the stuff dockside and ready to be installed within 1 month when war breaks out. Not violating the terms of the treaty but the spirit of the treaty.

I absolutely love it when Adm Lee said "Stand aside, I'm coming through. This is Ching Lee" and Ching Lee'd all over the place

Dad was on the North Carolina from her commission in April 1941. He would have turned 100 on Sept. 8th. Dad would have loved these videos ⚓️

I'll miss the old music, but I'll live as long as the cannon fire never goes away

18:44 "twenty main battery guns of the 12-inch type". This is getting down to the old hail of fire concept from the pre-dreadnought era, but without the rapidity of fire associated with 6-inch to 8-inch guns.

Funny enough, I was there a few weeks ago and found an answer to an open question from your tour video of USS North Carolina - the origin of its Kingfisher. It is not the ship’s original, but it is AN original. This plane was separated in fog in a flight in Alberta, Canada in August of 1942. Crash landed. Was recovered in 1963 by the Canadian government, who turned it over to the USS North Carolina for a permanent home. Tookuntil 1971 to finish the restoration and it has been in Wilmington since!

I would like to see an engine breakdown on the pros and cons of different engines types. It’s crazy to me that they used turbo electric drives on ships way back then when this technology is today considered “new”.

What a great way to start the day. A design history of my home state battleship. It’s an amazing design story. I’ve been accustomed to her look, as well as the following classes, for so long - I’d never have imagined so many odd layouts were considered. Thanks Drach.

It's interesting that the capabilities of the Kongo class were considered during the multi-iterative design process (or sausage-making) of the North Carolina class, since USS Washington did face and cause Kirishima to sink.

The 1960 era school children of N.C. saved the ship. They collected and donated pennies, nickles and dimes until enough funds were on hand to create the museum in place now.

Just visited the NC the weekends of Neebs Live last month. A Docent spoke highly of you Drac.

Of the three US fast battleship designs these are my favourites. The Iowas look too thin at the bow, and the South Dakotas look dumpy with their short hulls. It's a pity that they had such vibration problems.

Drach, how did you not go mad when researching this epic? The US serial considerations remind me of a little dog spinning round and round because of an overhead dog biscuit. I would, one day, like to understand the concept of sloped armour implementations so that I can imagine how the hosting ships were actually built. The idea of sloping makes sense, but not how it would appear in real life. Always a fan, TKT.

Proud North Carolinian here, thank you for this video. We're very proud of our Showboat here.

Now that's what you call an opening ovation😊😊❤

Add the sound of a glass of rum being filled and the new intro is perfect. Love the whistle❤️ As usual great video. As always on Wednesdays I do not accept meeting until 4pm. Drachinifel rendez vous is prioritized! 😇😁

In the answer about inclined armor, I recommend the pictures on Pg.128 of Sumrall's "Iowa Class Battleships". There are two good pictures that show how the transverse bulkhead to which the internal armor is to be attached are formed with angled edges. The Class A armor was rivetted to a Special Treatment Steel backing plate. The STS was then welded to the transverse bulkheads. The upper and lower belts also sat on a shelf to give them support. The exterior hull shell was then built on the outside of the armor plating. The hull plating outboard of the belt was also made of STS, 1.5" thick which could serve as a de-capping plate. STS could be welded without destroying the temper of the plate. Cement was pored between the two plates where the manufacturing tolerances in the cemented armor plates left gaps between them.

Love that new Intro 🙏 cant wait for the others you wanna try

I was in grade school when the North Carolina was to be scrapped and the campaign to save her was mounted. I remember contributing my meager allowance to the effort.

Hello, I live in Wilmington and I have picnics with the battleship all the time. I'm in love with the ship. I have so many darn pictures of it. I enjoyed listening to your discussion about the North Carolina class.😅

Parking a VW Beetle next to your mega gun apparent works whether you're talking a 16in barrel or the A-10s tank trimmer

There are a few truly master storytellers on RU-vid ... drachinifel is one of them

All of this design's changes reminds me of myself playing Ultimate Admirals Dreadnoughts and trying to create a ship who doesn't exceed certain weight limitation

You are getting very good at these videos Mr Inifel. 5 Stars.

I practically grew up on the north carolina. its always nice learning more about her.

The Nelsons as battlecarriers seems hella cursed

Well, this video certainly illustrates the famous Firepower-Protection-Mobility triangle. It feels like the US Navy explored every permutation, for every hull size between 25k and 40k tons.

North Carolina is a favorite of mine, it was the first museum battleship I ever toured. I got there at the end of the day and was able to go from one end to the other by myself. Just taking it all in. One day I will return to get a more thorough experience.

All these gyrations by the bureau of ordnance came down to really one night in 1942 when a Japanese battleship/battlecruiser was found lacking. Maybe they should have paid more attention to torpedoes. Well hindsight is always 20/20.

Another great job Drach. I will incorporate this discussion in our Docent training. Thanks very much!

I have been amazed at the level.of detail and the interesting stories of each ship you have talked about. I have enjoyed your series as it is stays on point and does not get lost in the details about the ships,it gives me as a wargamer(Jutland by avalon hill at 11yo) a better appreciation of the ships and how they were designed and operated

A battleship with three forward tripple turrets, with A underimposed, B wing mounted, and C superimposed and wing mounted, would have been WILD to see

11:50 - Pity about anyone who's manning the secondary battery when B or C turret fires back along the length of the ship, though.

My home state battleship, I always loved going out to see it with my Grandpa when I was younger.

Watching this video reminded me of what it is to watch sausage being made. Battleships are an amazing breed of vessel, but the design process is slightly horrific in comparison to cruiser, carrier, and destroyer designs. The number of sea-going monstrosities proposed is amazing.

Oh really liked that intro music for the Rum Ration👍👍

I miss the old intro. . . 😢 Yes, I am aware of the copyright/IP issues going on behind the scenes. I think that it's terribly unfair that Drachinifel is having to deal with that, but I'm still going to be sad about the old intro. One of the best on RU-vid.

Great museum ship. Tip top shape and knowledgeable staff. Wilmington, NC.

A huge factor affecting everyone's naval spending was the Great Depression. This factor alone would make an entire video. Another huge factor was the American Two Ocean Navy Act of 1940, which was signed into law and built the modern naval units necessary to fight the war.

29:35 wave troughs exposing the magazines? Naaaahhhhh, that could never be a real problem

One day, I'd like to build a 1/350 scale model of the original North Carolina design, with quadruple 14" turrets, like what appears in World of Warships as USS Florida.

I think I facepalmed three or four times in this video. That's one facepalm for every time you said "battlecarrier" plus one for how you mentioned a "last despairing attempt to return to 20 knots"

You have excelled yourself Drach !

Sense she’s moored only 3 hours from me, I drove over to Wilmington last year to see her, too. If anyone ever has the opportunity to visit the North Carolina, I highly recommend it! Very informative, and it’s good to see that she’s taken care of. Also, not too terribly far south, you could go to Charleston and visit the CV-10 USS Yorktown. As of the last time I visited her, which was quite a while now and it may have since changed, she was not quite as well preserved, unfortunately, but absolutely still worth a visit!

4:30 - Nobody having yet realized at this point that capital-ship-deck-armor penetration only really comes into play at ranges long enough for the enemy to see you firing and get out of the way.

This is one of the best history of battle ships I've seen online.

WASHINGTON FOR THE SNIPE BABYYYYYYYYY

Awesome, this was great Drach! Thanks!!

Dude im currently working on a video thays a general guide to American Fast Battleships and i was looking for more info on NCs than the standard factoids about how they ended up under armored and with 16" guns and then you go and drop this, thanks!

I like the music man. I dont care what anybody says. Keep up the good work brodie.

Design 16, USS Florida, my favorite Tier 7 BB in WoW Blitz

US Department of the Navy: "We're working in the largest ocean on the planet. Let's make sure our fleet can cross it 30% slower than anyone else."🤡🤡🤣🤣

For all the design hell that these ships went through the end product was something truly exceptional. Sure they weren’t an Iowa or South Dakota Class but they could escort Carriers , duke it out with other battleships and had a phenomenal as armament

One wonders how many naval architects working on the class committed suicide with all the changes...

I found it amusing to see that VW Bug beside that collection of big guns, certainly a dramatic demonstration of scale

Great video. Interesting on how the ships came to be.

Well the new music certainly is entertaining.

Fantastic video Drach! This development of BBs during the Roaring Twenties and Great Depression, along with the Treaty, hampered options The Nelson style I understand- but- 40 degrees of blind spot at the stern is a significant liability. Some of the other designs were amazing- that battleship on top and carrier in the middle? Only in Star Wars do we see it- FDRs first reelection campaign gave us the triple 50 16in rifles. BB 55 is a great monument, and it was a pleasure to hang out with your fans on that mess deck.

It should be noted that if the BB55 had been armed with a 14" gun, it would have been an L/50 modern design equivalent to the 16" Mk.6 and Mk.7 guns. It also would have been given a "super-heavy shell" of between 1,800 and 1,850 lbs fired at a new gun velocity of 2,500 fps. Long range penetration by this gun would have been sufficient to counter all then known Japanese capital ships, including the "Nagato" class. If she had carried such guns into the Battle of Second Guadalcanal, given the exact same fire control system, she would have fired around 33% more shells, which meant that she would have put at least 27 shells into IJNS Kirishima, more than sufficient to inflict similar damage. This 14" gun would have been superior to all extant 14" guns and all 15"/38cm guns except the high performance Italian Mod.34.

imagine designing a whole massive ship. a whole team of people doing all that math and those drawings by hand. then somebody is just like "nah we chose a different one" or " "jk we actually aren't building ship" . that must have been a rough day at work.

The new intro music is an improvement over its predecessor

I miss the old intro but im sure ill get used to this😢

Please please have an episode on why they had the vibration problems.

they straight up said "never let them know your next move" and created one of my top favorite battleship designs

I would love to watch a video on how the designers were calculating the theoretical weights of these different proposed designs.

I had a tour of the USS North Carolina at Wilmington by a sailor who spent 2 1/2 years on it during WW 2.

Once again, thorough and fascinating research. Thanks for posting!

Favorite intro music so far. You might have a winner.

Ok, note to somebody in WOWS, *PUT THAT TRIPLE SUPERFIRING SHIP IN!!!*

I know it means "plotting room" but the armor layout with "plot" on it makes me think they are going to rely on plot armor .... woe be the sailors under that plan.

someone should draw a Nelson class as the USN thought they would be.

Outstanding video. Thank you

An excellent analysis, as usual.

This is incredible. The amount of designs is astounding.

That staggered turret Nelson style design... I'm suddenly having inspiration for UA Dreadnoughts.

Please tell the story of vibration nightmare of the North Carolina class. Also include a theoretical earlier deployment to the Pacific and what it might have meant at Coral Sea or Midway and the early battles at Guadalcanal, if the ships had been properly designed without the problem and entered service as planned. And you are right USS North Carolina is wonderful way to spend a day. She is superbly maintained.

@3:15 I like the German made Volkswagen Beetle in the left hand corner. Must be a post-war image.

I have been considering going back to re-visit this ship. I was very sad to find out that they no longer do the fireworks/light show at night.

I like the new music Sir! 😊

I have the book he based this on. All of that series is very good reading. Some time ago the game company Avalanche Press did a variant for two of their Pacific games. This looked at what could be done if the USA economy had continued improving instead of dipping down in 1937-38. Two more BB-55 class and two more CV-5 class. It is an interesting look at possible beginning to the USN in 1941/42.

Drach! Please do an episode on the drivetrain Vibrations. Freedman’s book mentions it but I’m sure your presentation would surpass that.

With all the talk about "battle carriers" I wonder that no one in the USA (or germany) came up with the idea of mating the front half of a battleship with a well dock carrying a few PT boats or S-Boats...

Like the quieter intro music. Thankyou drach for your great work

I know it's not what your focus is, but I'd love to see some earlier ship development. From triremes to cogs ❤

I love how confused they were by the Nelsons lol.

I see the WoW Florida Design with the quad 14s In three turrets.

I visited that ship on an off day during my time in service. I'm glad I did it.

North Carolinia battle carriers? I'm starting to understand where the kit-bashed Vietnam/Grenada era Iowa-Class battle carriers got there start.

This is precisely the sort of video that makes me a Drachinifel subscriber. I had no idea any of this sort of USN naval design fantasy took place in the interwar years. My impression of the Navy Design Bureau's imagination and innovation has increased!

As usual, an excellent product. The displacement "escalator" was not part of the Treaty, which related only to the increase from 14" to 16" guns, should Japan not sign the Treaty by 1 April 1937. The increase in displacement was agreed to by the US. British Empire and France as a supplementary codicil in 1938. An interesting bit of "sea lawyering" by the USN is that they would not include the weights of any technology not in place at the time the Washington Treaty was signed. Powder or pneumatic aircraft catapults were not placed aboard US warships before 1926, so their weight and certain aviation weights were not included in the calculation of standard displacement. A major impact on the design of the BB55 and BB57 classes was the decryption and translation of an IJN message in 1936. Marked "routine", it was put at the bottom of the pile given the restricted resources of ONI after interception in 1922. The USN and Army had broken the Japanese diplomatic and operational codes back before the Washington Treat Conference (the ability to read the mail of the Japanese delegation gave the US delegation the knowledge of where the Japanese would accept the quantitative limitations). This situation continued in the 1920s before IJN code changes and constrained budgets led to a short period of opaqueness. The 1922 message was from the trials team aboard IJNS Nagato. It announced the Nagato had exceeded 26 knots for four hours at trial displacement. Up until this point, the USN thought that the published speeds of the Japanese capital ships of 22.5 knots meant that the US 21 knot battleline (in truth with USS Oklahoma, a 19 knot battle line) could maneuver to keep the Japanese battleline at bay. By 1936, both navies had demonstrated the ability to hit at over 30,000 yards with aerial spotting from behind a smoke screen. The USN believed that it would seize air superiority over the battle area and force the Japanese to run the gauntlet to get down to visual range (24,000 yards). The three (1936) 26 knot "Kongo" class "fast battleships" were a problem but the USN practiced tight "battle turn aways" based on the German tactics at Jutland when the "Kongos" sought to concentrate on the head of the USN battleline. Now the USN had to consider that not only "Mutsu" and "Nagato" could do 26 knots, but the early four battleships could too. The entire US battleline had been rendered obsolescent. And there was no way to rebuild the ships to get 26 knots. The USN would have to build an entirely new 27 knot battleline. It should be noted that most USN "fast" battleship designs before 1936 were set to 23 knots. And that the General Board would have preferred "battlecruisers" in the early planning stages of BB55. The 27 knot standard was applied to BB-55, BB-57 and BB-67. The BB-61 class (of which there were originally to be four) also fitted into this plan, as they were 33 knot versions of the BB-57 and could take their place in the battleline against what the USN and other nations expected would be 41cm armed Japanese capital ships displacing 40,000 to 48,000 tons. In fact, the original building plan from 1936-37 (before the 2d Vinson Act and the "Two Ocean Navy", would have resulted in a 15 ship battleline by 1946-48. As far as references, I think I prefer Friedmann (both ed.s) over Garzke & Dulin (both ed.s). Garzke and Dulin don't go far back enough to truly explain the design history that resulted in BB55. I also think Friedmann is easier to read.