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The Difficulty Paradox | Semi-Ramblomatic 

Second Wind
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Today we're excited to premiere Semi-Ramblomatic from Yahtzee Croshaw, a new video-essay show focused on game design and industry topics! New episodes every other week.
From the team behind The Escapist, we're excited to introduce you to our new employee-owned and fully independent outlet, Second Wind.
Support us on Patreon: / secondwindgroup
Merch! sharkrobot.com...

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28 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 1,9 тыс.   
@SecondWindGroup
@SecondWindGroup 10 месяцев назад
Second Wind is fully independent, employee-owned and fan-funded. Supporting us on Patreon is the best way to make sure we're sustainable for the future. Even $1 a month helps! www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th
@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th 10 месяцев назад
This isn't just an Ubisoft problems and instead it's a gaming problem, and one more common in corporate development. I tend to give the example of Legacy of Kain 2 as a great example of how to do this right (Metroid is another one, but they dont' do it quite as right because they present the problem before the solution), it shows how you can pose a a challenge by giving new powers needed to then progress the game and it does it with the blocks puzzles and soul reaver door keys. As you progress you learn skills that then are compounded upon as a new puzzle requires all the previous skills you learned to be utilized to overcome it and creates a new challenge in the process. I mention this because this is mostly a problem with Video Game RPGs, and not TTRPGs, because in a TTRPG there is a lot more room for the GM to create new problems and solutions (I'm a TTRPG designer) and it's more problematic in games that focus more on looking good (graphics and marketing) than they do on focusing on satisfying game loops. I recently played a game called Rift Breaker. By all accounts I should have hated this game because the narrative, script and VA at it's heights reaches mediocre levels and is mostly piss poor, but I found myself playing more because of the fun aspects of the game, I wanted to unlock more tools to have more ways to solve problems and move forward and do more various kinds of building and tower defense style things... and that was fun enough where the fact that the game narrative was shit didn't even bother me, even though it was noticeably bad to mediocre. Ubisoft obviously is a chief aggitator here, but so is Starfield, and CoD, and all the other big investment experiences because their goal is never to create a good game, their goal is to make money and it's more efficient to just market something that looks pretty and passably functional-ish than it is to create new and exciting types of games, instead they let the indie devs do that and then steal their ideas and call it innovation, without ever really understanding why it worked to begin with. This is why when you hand wave and stealth kill everyone in AC it's power fantasy yes, but you just deleted the game, where as in Mario 3, using the warp whistle, in that period of time was a very different matter than it is today. Today you can just google where the warp whistles are and skip the game and be done in under an hour without even using glitches and exploits, but at the time no such information was available unless you shelled out for the game guides that were printed on paper. Back then, finding the warp whistle with no information that it even existed WAS a skill challenge, but with the internet that's no longer true. The problem started when games didn't adapt to include that new information and the trend just continued. The correct answer to satisfying game play is indeed that both the challenge goes up AND the player gets new tools (becomes stronger) to deal with new kinds of challenges, but that's a lot harder to do as a designer, and costs a lot more money, and requires artistic vision and understanding of what fun and proportional challenge is rather than prioritizing quick turn over cash grabs like yearly releases laden with microtransactions. The two philosophies are fundamentally at odds. This is why you're seeing a trend now that is just starting in the indie space now of making everything customizable for the game experience and including native mod support, which you see in stuff like V Rising, and Settlement Survival so that players can decide how the game should feel for them and modify the experience with mods to make it their own game for endless engagement, and that's a brilliant new tactic... well maybe not new, but it's new as a trend. This has been around for a while, but we see stuff like Fallout and Skyrim and other games like stellaris surviving on mod support alone, and that is where video games are heading, so that players can customize their preferred experience and if they don't like it, at that point they have nobody but themselves to blame. Want to reduce the grind? Go for it! Want to increase the grind and make enemies 10x spongier? Go for it! This is the future of gaming now.
@joeyparkhill8751
@joeyparkhill8751 10 месяцев назад
Yahtzee, if you are reading this, I have a rather silly idea: when the week of St. Patrick's Day comes around in March, you should do that particular week's Fully Ramblomatic episode in a Ridiculous Irish Accent, complete with Cartoon Yahtzee & Cartoon Dog dressed as Bearded Leprechauns!
@chrismeandyou
@chrismeandyou 10 месяцев назад
It should be a fluctuating line of similar difficulty throughout the game with little spikes for mini-bosses/bosses as the best way to keep a player engaged. That's why the skill based games are the best kind of raw gameplay. But almost every game in the best genre, RPG, is stat level building nonsense instead. Imagine Bethesda Fallout games playing like Rainbow Six, or the Far Cry 3 realism mod that made that game so fun with high damage to yourself and enemies.
@phillipthompson5937
@phillipthompson5937 10 месяцев назад
Glad you guys have kept rocking and rolling
@rocko7711
@rocko7711 10 месяцев назад
@RolandTFlakfizer
@RolandTFlakfizer 10 месяцев назад
Always glad to see Yahtzee's semi.
@timotheatae
@timotheatae 10 месяцев назад
💀
@draivaden9745
@draivaden9745 10 месяцев назад
Euro truck driver reference
@Demi_Purple
@Demi_Purple 10 месяцев назад
I-- You-- *angrily likes comment*
@sandwich2473
@sandwich2473 10 месяцев назад
Indeed 👀
@dddmemaybe
@dddmemaybe 10 месяцев назад
I believe the sniper was a bolt action not semi-auto. 🤓
@tylerdelange5959
@tylerdelange5959 10 месяцев назад
XCOM's sense of difficulty always stood out to me. You gain more abilities that enable your troops to be more powerful, but simultaneously, the aliens are gaining new unit types. More elements are being added on both sides, not necessarily making it objectively harder or easier, but just with more elements to consider all around.
@TTimeschannel
@TTimeschannel 10 месяцев назад
Not to mention your soldiers can’t hit their targets at first but as they level up it gets easier. It last trying to balance those two opposing forces of player strength and player difficulty.
@DreamblitzX
@DreamblitzX 10 месяцев назад
XCOM 2 at least can also kinda swing both ways though where it tends to kind of spiral in either direction - If you're winning consistently, then your soldiers generally outpace the enemy growth, and the game gets easier and you win more and repeat. If you start losing, you fall behind the curve, and it gets harder and harder to recover and start winning again - you get stuck in a failure spiral
@iDEATH
@iDEATH 10 месяцев назад
@@DreamblitzX That's why you want to take a rookie or two along on missions. At least the less critical missions. Make sure you're spreading out the XP in order to minimize the odds of getting caught in that spiral you mentioned.
@DBZHGWgamer
@DBZHGWgamer 10 месяцев назад
@@DreamblitzX I think the key is that in Xcom 2 you need to learn how to handle mistakes, but at some point you get good enough that you rarely make them... and once your soldiers get good enough they also rarely make them, then you've kinda lost the core theme. But that's probably why mods that add 10 times more enemies are so popular in Xcom games. Gotta increase the tension to the point where no matter how good you are there will still be mistakes because of how difficult the challenge is.
@ixirion
@ixirion 10 месяцев назад
@@DBZHGWgamer its the same in most games. You do less mistakes and you know mechaincs and so you have DS no hit runs at the end :)
@Wilkey89
@Wilkey89 10 месяцев назад
I love the intro to the merch store 🤣 "For reasons we can't legally discuss our artists have had some free time"
@gavinchoules8165
@gavinchoules8165 10 месяцев назад
This made me wonder- they have been discussing the whole affair up until now in detail. Suddenly we get this- which could be a joke or they are tired of talking about it - plus this weeks FR pushed back (again, could be respect for the last ZP's dropping) I hope for their sake it's that and not real legal issues that could threaten the future of Second Wind
@morganfreeman-sheehy842
@morganfreeman-sheehy842 10 месяцев назад
@@gavinchoules8165 It's probably more about avoiding litigation in the future.
@Wilkey89
@Wilkey89 10 месяцев назад
@@gavinchoules8165 generally speaking, in situations revolving around business and questionable employer/employee relations, any lawyer will basically tell you that your only comment is "no comment" until potential litigation has run it's course. So this is a cheeky way of saying, "Hey, we have new jobs now but can't really talk about it."
@nickoftime7232
@nickoftime7232 10 месяцев назад
⁠​⁠@@gavinchoules8165 When they left The Escapist, part of the severance package was an NDA, which some of them like Nick and Yahtzee didn’t accept, so they didn’t get severance. On the other hand, they can legally talk all they want about the ordeal I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the less public members took the deal and thus can’t talk as freely about it.
@meghanhenderson6682
@meghanhenderson6682 10 месяцев назад
Could be part of legal discussions to get rights back to some of their old shows.
@antennahead4978
@antennahead4978 10 месяцев назад
The trick is not to make a game more difficult but to make it more complex. Just by playing the game the player will feel that it gets easier because they are accustomed to game. You have to introduce a variety of enemies or challenges so that the player improves but are still faced with a challenge
@Pineappolis
@Pineappolis 7 месяцев назад
Spot on - the game gets more complex, you get proportionally more abilities to deal with the complexity. That way, you _are_ getting stronger but the game's still more challenging because you have to remember how to do more things and under what circumstances. I'll grant that's a hard balance to pull off - even more so if you have a plethora of different builds to choose from because making them all capable of dealing with the increased complexities while making them different enough to bother putting in there in the first place is tricky.
@jertlemiah
@jertlemiah 10 месяцев назад
I once heard "The player will optimize the fun out of a game if given a chance" , and I always think about that when conversations like this start up. Like, I feel called out with the silenced sniper rifle being my first purchase in Far Cry, but I'm not going to not do it. It's hard to turn off the desire to be optimal, when applicable, even if it makes the experience less fun
@1IGG
@1IGG 10 месяцев назад
That's why I never play Sorceries in souls games.
@ferinzz
@ferinzz 10 месяцев назад
So then you ask yourself why is it that the activity is not worth being done in a more engaging fashion. If sitting in a bush sniping everything is the best strat, then it's a failure to the level design because there should be a lot of other tools that can be used to get through it. Or it bypasses what should normally be a stat check. And at the same time if it feels like it's cheesing it, this means that they aren't adaquately testing your stealth skills to make the methodical approach of sneaking through and clearing each enemy individually satisfying.
@jclindsay007
@jclindsay007 10 месяцев назад
best example I know of of that phrase was, if I'm not mistaken, the game that spawned it... Ultima online. Originally, Ultima online was going to have a whole, truly organic functioning ecosystem, where there was actual population numbers for the random mobs, and food chains, and migrations if conditions were favorable. During playtests, they discovered that players were content to just farm easy to kill stuff instead of moving on because it was easier and "more optimized", so they had to abandon that model.
@Lukus80
@Lukus80 10 месяцев назад
I believe it may well have been TotalBiscuit (John Bain) who said that quote. He lamented years ago about how games of the time would allow you to optimise to the level of circumventing the very idea of the gameplay in question, just like Yahtzee does with Assassin's Creed here. He was one of the those players that would optimise as hard as possible for the best outcome, and would often complain that games would unbalance unlocks and abilities away from an appropriately fair challenge.
@IncredibleEdibleCake
@IncredibleEdibleCake 10 месяцев назад
I'm pretty sure that it was Sid Meier who said "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
@Groovebot3k
@Groovebot3k 10 месяцев назад
The ninja teleport honestly sounds and looks like a cool move to have in a game selling the fantasy about being a stealthy assassin, but what I am genuinely reminded about with the RPG formula (that what a lot of designers might have forgotten) is that typically as you got stronger the enemies got harder... unless you spent time grinding (often in badly designed RPGs where the balance was off) your ideal path through the game was at an equal level of difficulty throughout despite your increased arsenal.
@fusrosandvich3738
@fusrosandvich3738 9 месяцев назад
I'd like to call up Final Fantasy V, as that game is special in that many fights don't actually award EXP. Skills are gained instead through BP, which can be earned by a few methods. Thus, people have been able to beat the secret super-bosses with insanely complicated solutions at the lowest possible levels. It turns every fight into a big puzzle instead of the usual RPG raw-numbers slugfest. I always consider the RPGs where low level runs are possible to be some of the best, because they typically have varied battle systems with a ton of options to work with.
@qrangejuice8225
@qrangejuice8225 10 месяцев назад
In my opinion, games should get more *complex* as they progress. Players should have access to a larger pools of resources and more options with which to use them; enemies should further tax those resources and force the use of those options.
@Lucifer_Crowe
@Lucifer_Crowe 10 месяцев назад
Yeah, shouldn't have to be necassily frustrating. Just make you think more
@lpsp442
@lpsp442 10 месяцев назад
Well said!
@Beakerbite
@Beakerbite 10 месяцев назад
Yeah, nothing is worse than getting the "I win" button but having no reason to use it other than boredom. I shouldn't be required to handicap myself in order to get a thrill near the end of the game. I should feel like "there's no way I would have made it without that upgrade".
@dragontear1638
@dragontear1638 10 месяцев назад
Good post! I was thinking much the same thing, it should become more *challenging* so it makes the player learn and adapt. Giving that larger pool of resources and options trade-offs and costs makes a player think before doing or using Stronger Thing. Yes that shiner laser rifle is better than a rifle for example, but perhaps you have to charge it, which commits you to each use. Being able to out-wit and out-play a problem should feel good as it cost the least, through some planning and good timing, or just improvising and good luck.
@FG-418
@FG-418 10 месяцев назад
I think it depends on the type of games, and to what kind of players they cater to. People find fun in different types of challenges, be it mechanical prowess, puzzle solving or spreadsheet optimization. Some game can give the player options, other it might be harder. Personally most of my favourite games don't even have enemies. I do prefer games that are more puzzle like, but I also know a lot of people that just want their mechanical skills challenged and not think too much about optimizing everything.
@martin0499
@martin0499 10 месяцев назад
Yahtzee's so prolific he's putting out content on two channels in the same day!
@performa9523
@performa9523 10 месяцев назад
He's got some mad skills!
@psycojosho
@psycojosho 10 месяцев назад
What's the other channel?
@Phrate
@Phrate 10 месяцев назад
@@psycojosho it's a joke about The Escapist releasing the rest of the videos they had, including Yahtzee's
@ilfardrachadi2318
@ilfardrachadi2318 10 месяцев назад
Someone finally found the RU-vid account's password. XD
@RobotsWithKnivesCartoons
@RobotsWithKnivesCartoons 10 месяцев назад
I didn't know if it was one of his videos or not but I just clicked 'Do not recommend channel' just to be safe.
@nddragoon
@nddragoon 10 месяцев назад
i really like it when "game get hard" and "player get strong" are in a tug of war that you can control. like in risk of rain 2 the late game can be tortuous or play itself depending on some RNG and how well you've played up to that point between how fast you're going and how you develop your build.
@NYKevin100
@NYKevin100 10 месяцев назад
I like Hades's take on this: The player gets significantly stronger through the course of the game... but once you beat it for the first time, it unlocks a smorgasbord of difficulty options that you can play with, and rewards you for using them. Or you can keep playing the vanilla experience, that's valid too.
@tachrayonic2982
@tachrayonic2982 10 месяцев назад
@@NYKevin100I find Hades a bit of a mixed bag for it's additional difficulty options. To put it simply, I don't like it when a game takes away player choices/chances to get stronger without giving the player anything to show for it, and some of the options do just that. Increasing the Time to Kill of enemies also makes the gameplay loop less satisfying. Peglin does this even worse, the Cruciball difficulty modes not only make the game harder (Stronger Enemies), but also make you weaker (Less rewards, worse starting loadout) all for the sake of meta-progression. Meta Progression just isn't a good enough reward to make the game itself less interesting to play. For comparison, I'm a fan of the difficulty in a game like The Binding of Isaac. As you progress the game, you unlock new optional areas and challenges that are more difficult, but offer better rewards or more choices. You unlock new enemies to create new challenges. You unlock the ability to progress further into the game with more difficult areas, but the increased duration of the run gives you time to develop your loadout further.
@jbutler8585
@jbutler8585 10 месяцев назад
Exactly, you CAN have both. Keep some enemies from the early part of the game around to act as fodder in the later stages. That's where the sense of power can come in. More difficult enemies can and should exist, mixed in with the fodder so there is an immediate and noticeable distinction between them.
@GrammerPancreas
@GrammerPancreas 10 месяцев назад
The Souls games are actually a great example of this. You can either take the hard way in fights, either deliberately or inadvertently, or you can cheese almost everything, especially in Elden Ring. But the latter usually requires a good amount of investment to get it running, so it helps you feel like you're not forced to.
@Zeraevous
@Zeraevous 10 месяцев назад
That tug-of-war can get really irritating if implemented naively. I get extremely irritated with enemy scaling in particular, which in theory can be a perfect balance. In practice it feels like an exercise in futility and frustration. The most boring rollercoaster is a flat curve. Scaling can also be frustrating in two ways - either the early game choices you made come back 40 hours later to destroy your progress (leveling useless skills in Skyrim), or nothing you accomplish ever feels satisfying because there's no indication that there's a difference. If the numerator and denominator are increasing at the same rate, the ratio stays the same, no matter how big the numbera get.
@aaronrawlings5310
@aaronrawlings5310 10 месяцев назад
Omg jack's ad read had me cracking up 🤣 Also congrats guys for keeping your heads high and carrying on
@YuriBez2023
@YuriBez2023 10 месяцев назад
I like the way Metal Gear's enemies wear helmets if you do too many headshots, get flashlights, body armour and so on. That seems a neat way for the mobs to grow in strength alongside the player.
@seecreature8664
@seecreature8664 10 месяцев назад
I've been thinking about this myself. MGS gets away with it because it doesn't have RPG-like player upgrades, the enemies adapt to your tactics, which is cool as hell. But in a traditional RPG-like upgrade tree, it would be utter bullshit to see enemies suddenly countering cool abilities you just bought. What if it were inverted though, and your abilities came from overcoming your enemies? Like you don't earn the ability to do a stealth takedown on a heavy guy until you've killed 5+ of them in other ways. It'd be like an arms race against the enemy forces. They bring out bigger guns because you're a threat, and your skill trees reflect your character learning how to adapt to those bigger guns, making you a bigger threat. If the player is the first one in the arms race to accelerate, it feels shit. But if the enemies do it first, and overcoming those obstacles is a requisite to the player ramping themselves, it flows a little better.
@Vilamus
@Vilamus 10 месяцев назад
Sorta. MGS5 kinda muddies the waters a bit with the RPG style weapon research,. so whilst Venom never gets any better, the weapons and equipment he uses certainly does. @@seecreature8664
@kidkangaroo5213
@kidkangaroo5213 10 месяцев назад
After 40 missions and tons of side content, a lot of them had riot suits on. Had to CQC them or use non-lethal nades, difficulty spiked at that point
@Conqtorias
@Conqtorias 10 месяцев назад
What I really wish is that the gameplay mechanic that removes these things wasn't a 'send your guys off to do a real-time mission to fuck with supply lines' but was instead a MGS3 style 'blow up the food/ammo depot to starve them of the resources' thing. Though to be fair, I've been a huge sucker for that mechanic ever since I first saw it. The new system feels really uninteractive and being able to make intentional, player-made strikes against enemy supply lines in preparation for a mission would be much more fun IMO.
@Yodah97
@Yodah97 10 месяцев назад
Yes but that works best when few games use it and the player isn't aware. If every game had enemies adapt to the player's play style, it'd come across as the game punishing the player for... well, playing as he liked.
@tgvelvet4985
@tgvelvet4985 10 месяцев назад
See here's another thing about RPGs, "player get stronger" actually coincides with "game get harder" bc unless you're specifically level grinding to break the level curve, you're unlocking new options that the game now expects you to use and balance with your existing options, so yeah sure older trash mobs now get clowned on but new enemies now get to ramp up their complexity to match your expanded arsenal and thus your strategizing and decision making gets harder.
@Booksds
@Booksds 10 месяцев назад
A well designed Metroidvania can showcase the best of both worlds. As you get new abilities and increase your health bar, enemies in new areas get stronger, but you also get to backtrack to earlier areas to wipe the floor with previously difficult enemies.
@lunarazure9969
@lunarazure9969 10 месяцев назад
There's nothing more satisfying than getting the Screw Attack in a metroid game and just annihilating your way through those backtracking moments. The Screw Attack is kind of ingenious because its the moment where the game goes "You've been running back and forth through these maps for ages. Here's an upgrade that trivializes both platforming and most enemies. It'll make backtracking and collecting those tricky upgrades really easy!" But at the same time, the new areas that require the Screw Attack introduce new enemies and challenges that take it into account, so it only trivializes places you've already explored.
@ArcaneAzmadi
@ArcaneAzmadi 10 месяцев назад
@@lunarazure9969 You seem to be a little confused. The Screw Attack doesn't trivialise platforming or enable you to reach any new areas, except in the sense that it lets you kill enemies in mid-air that might knock you out of your jump. It's the Space Jump that allows Samus freedom of traversal by enabling her mid-air multi jump.
@jemandetwas1
@jemandetwas1 10 месяцев назад
​@@ArcaneAzmadiWell, you usually have the space jump when you get the Screw Attack, and at that point the only thing that hinders your traversal are enemies, either one the ground or mid-air. In any case, the Screw Attack trivializes enemies and thus also platforming
@Toksyuryel
@Toksyuryel 10 месяцев назад
@@ArcaneAzmadi People have been sequence breaking Super Metroid for so long that it is actually a shock to some people that the Space Jump even exists separately from the Screw Attack.
@stefansuch1588
@stefansuch1588 10 месяцев назад
Ultrakill handles this difficulty situation really well. It gets easier by giving you new weapons, but it gets harder by requiring more skill to make effective use of the new weapons. Your progress on gaining skill is actually extremely easy to track in Ultrakill. The style point mechanic encourages the best strategy to play the game, but is loose enough to allow for you to develop your own methods.
@derektom14
@derektom14 10 месяцев назад
I've found the difficulty curve issue to be especially true in Zelda games, particularly Twilight Princess. The first segment in which you're a wolf is easily the most deadly part of the game, as you're adjusting to being a wolf, you only have three hearts, and when you first fight three Twilight monsters, it's the only part of the game in which you don't yet have the ability to eliminate all three of them in one move, so you effectively need to beat five of them instead. Meanwhile, by the endgame, you have around 15 hearts (more if you're better at collecting hearts, so the better players encounter less challenge) plus quite a few bottles of red or blue potions that can instantly restore all of those hearts, so you're practically invincible.
@samt3412
@samt3412 10 месяцев назад
I think BOTW has is the worst of this "difficulty curve" issue, since the endgame is post-story and you keep getting stronger well after the enemies do. I think TOTK handles this a bit better, since Silver Lynels are no longer the only, or even hardest, enemy that feels remotely challenging in endgame. You may be overpowered at the end of TP, but there's a much lower limit than BOTW to how overpowered you can get.
@RorikH
@RorikH 10 месяцев назад
@@samt3412 The recent ones especially have a problem with the hearty foods. In most other Zelda games you had 4 bottles max for everything, and then in the new ones you can have, like, 30 full health items.
@Cyberspark939
@Cyberspark939 10 месяцев назад
@@samt3412 BOTW spawns enemies based on the gear that you have as part of some calculation to basically create meat sponges to force you to use up durability on your best weapons. BOTW and TOTK's real power mostly comes from ingenuity, using the systems available to you and infinite durability. I don't think the devs ever really considered balance outside of the simplistic "what's the strongest weapons available when this creature is attacking, how many of them are there and how many swings does that strongest weapon take to break"
@seantheimp
@seantheimp 10 месяцев назад
@@Cyberspark939 The claim about weapon held determining enemy spawns is false. BotW (I don't know if TotK uses the same system) uses a hidden "leveling" system that determines average weapon strength and what enemy colors appear. If you infiltrate Hyrule Castle early and get top-tier weapons they have zero effect on enemy spawns. If you drop all your weapons in the end-game and equip a bunch of sticks, it will not make enemies magically weaker after a Blood Moon. Killing enemies raises your level a little, while killing bosses raises it a lot. The _final effect_ is similar to what you describe, but the actual mechanic is very different.
@Alloveck
@Alloveck 10 месяцев назад
@@seantheimp This is correct as far as I understand, and lines up with my experience. That said, I just plain dislike the level/power/whatever scaling period no matter what it's based on. In any and all games for that matter. How tough Link currently is or what he's done so far, and how tough any given Moblin is, should have no connection. If the two newest Zeldas had some sort of fixed enemy strength and loot quality option, I'd gladly take it.
@lazarack4859
@lazarack4859 10 месяцев назад
I honestly really love the color scheme of Ramblomatic, it's quite pleasant to watch at night!
@Kaotiqua
@Kaotiqua 10 месяцев назад
Whether I agree with Yahtzee, or as sometimes happens, not, it's still always a pleasure. And that theme music? Absolutely The Jam.
@toolazytochangeprofilepic
@toolazytochangeprofilepic 10 месяцев назад
A good measure of balance between “player get strong” and “game gets hard” is how many challenges around “beating the game without X” you see on RU-vid after the game comes out
@orangeboi3387
@orangeboi3387 10 месяцев назад
i think the best way to explain inmerisve sims would be "yknow those beating the game without x challenge videos? make sure every single one you can think of is beatable and engaging"
@untemperance
@untemperance 10 месяцев назад
You are asking the player to design the game for you if you consider that that is enough, though.
@belldrop7365
@belldrop7365 10 месяцев назад
@@untemperance Other way around. It's a game design so meticulous that a big range of players, not just the most hardcore, can do challenge runs and still have fun. That there are people that think there's only one way to play a game is my biggest gripe with these difficulty debates.
@leithaziz2716
@leithaziz2716 10 месяцев назад
@@belldrop7365 If playing the game X way is less interesting, then yeah it might come off that way. You can try to deviate from the intended playstyle, but that might just brake the game or lead to you just not engaging in many mechanics that would normally keep things fresh. That's usually why people feel discouraged to play like that if it means playing in a more boring manner. Like yeah, you can try to beat a Souls game without rolling or a Batman Arkham game without using any gadgets, but is that more fun?
@warmachine5835
@warmachine5835 10 месяцев назад
@@belldrop7365 Honestly I think "only one way to play" sums up my problem with difficulty debates as well. I personally like pushing my limits when there's good gameplay to the hard mode (looking at you Alpha Protocol...), but not everyone does or can. So let those people have fun too! It doesn't hurt me at all. I can still thump my chest about beating Balteus before he was nerfed all I want, but y'know, other people should be able to enjoy big stompy robots too even if they don't want to spend 30 hours mastering the helicopter boss in the first level or whatever. It gets stickier when there are benefits beyond bragging rights attached to higher difficulty though that players who don't find that fun want. That's the harder tightrope to walk, and I think if there is any productive debate to be had, it's there.
@southofsane877
@southofsane877 10 месяцев назад
I think a good example of balance can be found in puzzle games, especially Baba is You. In the early game you'll run into levels that are entirely too difficult to solve, but as you play through more puzzles (essentially, level up your understanding of the mechanics and tricks), you find that the hard levels have gotten easier. But then you keep playing and you find that the puzzles grow continuously harder to combat your newfound understanding, and you're still faced with difficulty.
@torinriley7569
@torinriley7569 10 месяцев назад
One of my favorite difficulty curves in games has to be the original System Shock for DOS, which is a game where you're spending most of the time just barely scraping by the ever increasing odds and ambushes despite your proportionally increasing arsenal, before at the second to last level it gives you a shield upgrade that allows you to spend the final floor just Running and Gunning through what were originally extremely threatening enemies. It makes you EARN that power fantasy.
@MoffMuppet
@MoffMuppet 10 месяцев назад
Something I found when playing through the entirety of the first Ace Attorney-trilogy in one go, was that I didn’t mind if the difficulty sometimes dropped, namely when starting the next game. It was actually kind of nice to have some really easy cases after the big finale, to wind down a bit before the difficulty started ramping up again.
@jedimasterpickle3
@jedimasterpickle3 10 месяцев назад
I mean that's the kicker: You're starting a new game. Of course the difficulty curve is going to reset.
@underFlorence
@underFlorence 10 месяцев назад
@@jedimasterpickle3 That's true, but I do think there's merit to the idea that this still makes the whole package work as a single "game." Even within a single Ace Attorney game, the main thing determining difficulty on a quantifiable level is "how much evidence do I have" because that's how many options you have to choose the right one from. So as you enter a new case and acquire evidence, it's easier than the end of the last one for a bit before it picks up, creating a bit of an ebb and flow. Outside of Ace Attorney, there's definitely arguments to be made for the difficulty curve not being a linear increase from start to finish. For the "Player get Stronger" side, having a mission that shows you how much stronger (or more adept as a player) you've become by throwing early game-level challenges at you can make things feel rewarding and offer a breather, for instance.
@jedimasterpickle3
@jedimasterpickle3 10 месяцев назад
@@underFlorence I think discussing difficulty within individual Ace Attorney games is valid and has merit. That wasn't my point. I just disagree about treating the whole trilogy as one game for the purposes of discussing difficulty since...they're literally different games. It's a different discussion.
@StyryderX
@StyryderX 10 месяцев назад
Ace Attorney trilogy is something of an oddball when it comes to the difficult in that while the first case is always easiest, they also get harder by the sequels. To people who never played it, in first game the culprit is hilariously inept at lying, with very obvious contradiction for you to point out. It's so onesided the prosecutor couldn't even get a dig at you and you don't have to press the witness (so that they either add more detail, probably contradicting something in the process). Then there's the second game, first case there's still obvious lies but now there's several more subtle one where you have to either press a witness or sift through your evidence and worked up a logic on how this'll work (ie: something you only do at later case in the first game). By the third game, you're in for a loop; the culprit while remain obvious, they already captured the heart of the court, really good at lying, and your client are *very* unhelpful.
@TriforceWisdom64
@TriforceWisdom64 10 месяцев назад
Sakurai talked about difficulty on his RU-vid channel, and his ideal curves trends toward being harder while having spikes and valleys, where beating a hard boss rewards the player with more power and an easier next level.
@mikec4964
@mikec4964 10 месяцев назад
The idea that the game "adapts" is a great way to take a basic sandbox and counter how "powerful" you become as you upgrade through the game. The batman series did this well by giving henchmen tools to help them if you regularly used a certain approach to dealing with them. Lots of hand-to-hand? big shields and shotguns. Lots of sneaking in the dark? Night vision goggles. Etc Etc. This opened up more of the game, as you couldn't rinse and repeat the same strategies (or if you did it got harder to do so) so you got to experience new ways to actually play the game adding to your experience as a whole.
@cpt_nordbart
@cpt_nordbart 10 месяцев назад
It's nice that your former employer still had a middle finger left for you.
@SecondWindGroup
@SecondWindGroup 10 месяцев назад
Well, after 15 hours neither of those two Zero Punctuation episodes have over 100K views... so. Yea.
@dlanightfury
@dlanightfury 10 месяцев назад
I think these guys win
@sage23ish
@sage23ish 10 месяцев назад
I saw the Spider-Man review and thought that I might watch it. Then I saw they had released two at the same time and realized they were desperate
@isaacswarts6826
@isaacswarts6826 10 месяцев назад
I'm going to wait because Yahtzee said he was going to review Spider-Man 2 as a Fully Ramblomatic eventually. Mostly because he liked it and wants to get Sony review codes again
@UlshaRS
@UlshaRS 10 месяцев назад
They did that trick where you flash three middle fingers. They thought it was cool but nobody was watching.
@samuelhorsfall3862
@samuelhorsfall3862 8 месяцев назад
I love the more philisophocal and questioning nature of Sexond Wind. I love listening to these conversations on HOW games are good. 😊🖤
@sommeone
@sommeone 10 месяцев назад
I'm incredibly excited for this series and I'm amazed you've got an episode ready so quickly! I'm one of the few weirdos that mostly watched The Escapist for Extra punctuation rather than ZP, so I've been waiting for this with baited breath!
@idlemindedmage6925
@idlemindedmage6925 10 месяцев назад
All of Frost's stuff has been fantastic. Very worth a watch.
@sommeone
@sommeone 10 месяцев назад
@@idlemindedmage6925 Absolutely!!! I got into his videos more recently and they are wonderful! It's a real shame that my favourite episode of Cold Take is the one immediately before all this nonsense happened -_-
@ljmoura
@ljmoura 10 месяцев назад
We all are
@Code7Unltd
@Code7Unltd 10 месяцев назад
@@sommeone Funny, I liked the Cold Take video about the "line go up" mentality that Second Wind put out.
@JF-um3wz
@JF-um3wz 18 дней назад
One of the better modern examples to me of pure difficulty ramping is actually the modern hitman trilogy. It’s not making the characters more hardy, or more difficult to stab in the neck, it’s the environment that gets harder. There’s fewer ways to grab someone to get a quick costume change, fewer discreet locations, more people milling around that’ll notice something’s up. You still have all the same capabilities, it’s where you’re pulling off these assassinations that helps decide the difficulty. I’ve only played hitman one, but in the final mission, they even take away most of your tools, going in the opposite direction of “player gets stronger”, and it honestly made it a very memorably challenging mission.
@laurengsjourney
@laurengsjourney 10 месяцев назад
I love how you worked with the ad at the end. Glorious
@fluorideinthechat7606
@fluorideinthechat7606 10 месяцев назад
Shin Megami Tensei is probably a good series that balances challenge and player getting stronger. Nocturne is probably the prime example of this, as no matter how far you get into the game you can still be fucked over by one wrong decision, enemy crit, missing an attack/hitting a block or getting it absorbed or repelled so you lose half/all of your turn, insta-kill skill on the main character, or a boss just says “Fuck you” and spams Beast/Dragon Eye to give themselves more turns (this is why I’d recommend to play the remaster, since they’ve patched out the more egregious Beast Eye spam) However, as the game goes on you can get access to more resistances, shoring up your resistance to getting fucked over, and get access to new and creative ways of fucking over the enemies, and if YOU get hit with an attack you block, absorb, repel, the enemy misses, or you land a crit or weakness you get extra turns as well. However, IV and V are probably the more fair entries in the series, since III/Nocturne is the embodiment of an abusive relationship in a video game, since all the above can happen as well.
@wolfvermillion1729
@wolfvermillion1729 10 месяцев назад
Ok, that's a much, much better placement for the ads. Much appreciated!
@kingsleycy3450
@kingsleycy3450 10 месяцев назад
I often find enemies with shields (ie counter to player's brute force approach) more fun than damage sponges
@PlebNC
@PlebNC 10 месяцев назад
As always, it's better to add more tools and ways to do things than scaling damage/health numbers. It applies to player progression too as nothing bores me faster than "+10% when crouching on tables on Thursday" but tell me I can "hold enemies as human shields and enemies actually react believably to the now hostage situation" and I'll climb a mountain to get that skill because that skill transforms and reinterprets how I play as well as add roleplaying/immersion opportunity. While the former skill is 50 shades of "you do more damage sometimes".
@Metallijosh100
@Metallijosh100 10 месяцев назад
Shadow of War is quite good at this, enemy captains become immune to types of attacks if you repeat them too much, so even as you become more powerful, some fights are incredibly hard to cheese (Shadow of Mordor is not bad at this but only had enemies being immune, they didn't adapt) - I only ever had ONE really bad experience with the adapting where a major story boss adapted to every single attack except ranged attacks, and there were hardly any arrows and no other enemies to use (for combos or converting or anything) so I just spent 15 minutes running around shooting this guy until he EVENTUALLY died.
@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic563
@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic563 10 месяцев назад
You have to outsmart and outmaneuver enemies with shields, so they are not a test of strength or patience, but of skill and cunning. Tests of skill and cunning are fun. Tests of strength and patience are not.
@PlebNC
@PlebNC 10 месяцев назад
@@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic563 Stealth games would disagree on the patience part but agree on the strength part.
@Delmworks
@Delmworks 10 месяцев назад
Agre to disagree- I find sheild enemies and their variants tend to break my flow too much. It probably doesn’t help in most games there’s only 1, maybe 2 anti-shield moves so it’s always the same solution
@EagleEye6486
@EagleEye6486 10 месяцев назад
I think the first Bioshock did a good job of this, especially when you are trying to beat the hardest difficulty without using Vita chambers. In the beginning of the game, at least when I played, I was using the hacked automatic turrets and security cameras to kill the splicers. When you finally get to Sander Cohens theater and are able to research the Spider Splicers to use their hearts as health packs, and getting the Booze Hound tonic, things start to turn in your favor.
@TheNwr1
@TheNwr1 9 месяцев назад
I was thinking that too! Honestly, the thuggish splicers are a good example of that. You start off fighting them one at a time, then you get (well, if you search for it) a tonic that improves your melee damage, so they get easier. That you get another, they get easier, so on, so forth. When you get to Hephaestus, they become immune to electricity. So your usual attacks really don’t work on them. The game basically forces you to adopt a new strategy, or invest in different plasmids, etc. But I guess the only downside is, the balance isn’t quite right. You effectively get 2 inverse difficulty curves, instead of a steady increase in difficulty bolstered by the new mechanics. Still tons of fun though, and challenging enough.
@F41nt13
@F41nt13 10 месяцев назад
What I love in Sekiro is that even at endgame you can kill an enemy with a few slices (or instant with stealth). The enemies just fight better, but they don't become damage sponges
@luvhair255
@luvhair255 10 месяцев назад
Fromsoft in general encompasses the 'you are getting more powerful' while also ramping up the complexity of the bosses, which is one of the reasons I think it's so satisfying. You can cut down the mooks that were giving you issues before, but you have to put more thought into the heavy-hitters as you go on. But then steadily you can look back and really see yourself improving and that feels great.
@SpottedHares
@SpottedHares 10 месяцев назад
So long as you do the “play gets stronger part” as theirs a great point after horse general boss where if you don’t upgrade your damage the copy paste mob you’ve fought before has noticeably way more hp for no reason. But if you do upgrade your damage then it’s hp is back to exactly what is was before. Soft always had this problem of holding the players hand and pulling them back telling them no you can’t no your not allowed to
@luvhair255
@luvhair255 10 месяцев назад
@@SpottedHares Tbh I never played Sekiro and not terrible knowledgeable so I can't comment on that extensively. But a lot of your complaints seem to stem from Sekiro, where it does require you to do a fight a specific way? It's one of the reasons I'm not interested in playing it. Like you MUST parry or you MUST stealth for this boss. Otherwise, I know that sometimes there is scaling in Soulsborne. But it's usually specific mobs and not very often. As for pulling players back, I've always seen the opposite with any Soulsborne, where Fromsoft usually lets you make the game as hard or as easy as you want and lets you go f*ck around and find out. Elden Ring has been 100% this experience, even more refined than the previous installments. Even when you have to open up gates in Soulsborne, if you have the skill, you can usually get it done early game and go farm mobs somewhere else to obliterate early game mobs and bosses.
@leithaziz2716
@leithaziz2716 10 месяцев назад
@@luvhair255 Parrying in Sekiro is the name of the game, but that doesn't mean there's not room for creativity, despite how many people try to boil the combat down to that. That's why the prosthetics exist. Look at Sekiro's most popular content creator, ONGBAL. He shows how there's much more to the game than just "parry --> attack".
@pawelmazur8318
@pawelmazur8318 10 месяцев назад
A really good example of this balance is Prey (2017). The game gives you tons of stuff to upgrade your abilities but at the same time throws ever more harder challenges at you. And everytime you're at a point where you feel like you've conquered everything, they throw a new different thing at you. The pacing is quite genius.
@true4evre
@true4evre 4 месяца назад
In school I was taught the optimal "difficulty vs player ability" graph was a sine wave. Player starts with nominal challenge, unlocks abilities that makes the game easier, then the challenge ramps up beyond where it started from, then you unlock more abilities, rinse and repeat.
@777SilverPhoenix777
@777SilverPhoenix777 10 месяцев назад
This was a very fun video with great points to make. It's funny cause in most of my games that allow for extra upgrades that remove game play, I almost ever use them. Half the time i forget about them. I always end up doing things the hard way apparently. 😂
@AManChoosesASlaveObeys
@AManChoosesASlaveObeys 10 месяцев назад
Because it's rewarding. And actually gaming
@Pallysilverstar
@Pallysilverstar 5 месяцев назад
Yeah, I've never understood the "this thing makes the game so easy it's not fun" argument because rarely (basically never) is that thing necessary and if the person wants more challenge they just don't have to use it. That autostart ability in Mirage I used maybe twice, once to see what it did and once to get an achievement.
@joedav67
@joedav67 2 месяца назад
@@Pallysilverstarthe reason behind the argument is that it means those upgrade points are now useless as all you can spend them on now is stuff that removes gameplay
@Pallysilverstar
@Pallysilverstar 2 месяца назад
@@joedav67 not a great argument since the skill points are there to allow you to customize your playstyle. Can you name a game where every single skill fits into every single playstyle. I don't know about you but in my experience about half the skill trees or more are basically useless for my preferred playstyles. There's always going to be skills that it would be pointless to put points into unless you just have nothing else to spend them on or they're a bridge to another skill you actually want.
@derrickhotard9926
@derrickhotard9926 10 месяцев назад
Hack N slash and bullet hell games are usually the best for difficulty scaling. You can kill the enemies faster, but you have to kill the enemies faster to succeed is a great formula
@TheStigification
@TheStigification 10 месяцев назад
Tears of the kingdom has a good example when you fight Gannon at the end he starts stealing your moves which I really really enjoyed. Tears of the kingdom Gannon fight is awesome
@furyrageguy5728
@furyrageguy5728 10 месяцев назад
Rhythm games do the whole “game gets harder while the player gets stronger” really good by just adding new mechanics and then requiring the player to actually get better.
@xXKirbyPwnage223
@xXKirbyPwnage223 10 месяцев назад
I definitely think that the player's growing power should be there to let them keep up with the growing difficulty. What should actually be getting challenged is the player's skill to make the difference. You now have the ability to kill four guys, which is why this room has FIVE of them, and you have to find how to use your kill-four-guys power to get past it.
@jamiecooper14
@jamiecooper14 10 месяцев назад
Most entertaining ad I've seen on youtube in a long time. Also Yahtzee's points are exactly what kills Ubisoft games for me. The reason he was picking on them so much is because it's a damn hallmark of their games honestly though other games do it frequently as well.
@IndustrialBonecraft
@IndustrialBonecraft 10 месяцев назад
I like the way X-COM 2 did difficulty - you could get more powerful, but so did the enemies - not just 'different enemies' but 'the same guys with different tactics, better gear, and adaptations. Made it really feel like they were responding to you, instead of just being an obstacle on the way to a tedious power fantasy.
@WelshPortato
@WelshPortato 10 месяцев назад
A beautiful example of a game playing with this is Bastion. You get stronger and stronger throughout the game, and you nerf yourself as go forward.
@Nmber1Fan
@Nmber1Fan 7 месяцев назад
Another element here is the fact that sometimes "getting stronger" actually means "dealing with an earlier problem in a better way." This is similar to the "beat up the level 1 goblins after getting to a high level" concept. The the example of poison in most RPGs. Starting out it is scary. You might not even be able to cure it, requiring you to endure the damage or run back to heal at a save crystal/inn/pokemon centre/whatever. Then you get some sort of antidote item, letting you carry a consumable and limited amount of cure poison effects with you. After a while, you probably get a "cure poison" spell that handles it. And finally in the late game you might even pick up (and be expected to have) poison resistance/immunity.
@Pyroniusburn
@Pyroniusburn 10 месяцев назад
With the very specific RPG example of the player smacking about the level 1 goblins that troubled them at the start, it indirectly illustrates the problem with the argument the discord person was making, in that every enemy in the rest of the game isn't as strong as a level 1 goblin. Unrelated to that, I was enjoying how extremely familiar some of Yahtzee's talking points were here, specifically the AC: Brotherhood example and mentions of "cheating yourself out of gameplay" like the warp whistle.
@GCTubaTim
@GCTubaTim 10 месяцев назад
I think games should get gradually harder until the very end when you get super powerful and steamroll everyone. I love the power fantasy at the end of a long RPG.
@paladin181
@paladin181 10 месяцев назад
I love it when a game has peaks and valleys. Challenge me, then give me a new power and let me be over powered for a short while before you introduce the next element that makes my last new toy useless. There's nothing more frustrating than a game that never lets you feel strong.
@FrankDux-uo7ig
@FrankDux-uo7ig 10 месяцев назад
So you want lame boring easy final bosses? With no challenge to the skills you’ve been honing for hours?
@subtlewhatssubtle
@subtlewhatssubtle 10 месяцев назад
@@FrankDux-uo7ig OP said "the very end," IE there can be a post-boss phase where you truly annihilate and be super cathartic. Example: Super Metroid.
@sinteleon
@sinteleon 10 месяцев назад
​@@FrankDux-uo7igonly if the part before said final boss is balls difficult. And / or make the part after the final boss really easy.
@sinteleon
@sinteleon 10 месяцев назад
Could also be a multiphase thing where the boss starts really hard but by the end is futilely throwing the kitchen sink at you.
@justascarecrow6988
@justascarecrow6988 8 месяцев назад
I like how armored core does it. You do get a little stronger thanks to OS upgrades and some weapons being slight upgrades, but the parts are mostly on the same tier. Your options increase massively, allowing you to taylor your AC to match the current boss, but you never just deal more damage, you make a sacrifice for it, all the way to the final boss.
@MegaMetallicaMASTER
@MegaMetallicaMASTER 10 месяцев назад
Can’t wait team. Having never watched the escapist content I’m one of those guys whose new here, loving the second wind content so far.
@Kasaaz
@Kasaaz 10 месяцев назад
Slay the Spire interesting to think about with this paradox. The entire game, and that kind of game in general, is basically about managing player get stronger vs game get harder. It presents, almost literally, that paradox as a fun thing.
@tiffa440
@tiffa440 10 месяцев назад
Chuffed to see how quickly and we’ll put together your response has been (from all of second wind) good work all!
@jingleinthedark92
@jingleinthedark92 10 месяцев назад
I usually hate ads, but that end bit was fantastic. Great work on the turn over y'all 🤘
@NarffetWerlz
@NarffetWerlz 10 месяцев назад
Kinda takes me back to Valkyrie Profile where the 'Hard' mode was actually the easiest so long as you knew where the secrets were. Though some were rather cryptic and likely resulted in a trip to GameFAQS, it rewarded you for exploring. Also, making daddy Odin as pissed as possible (though not so much that mommy has to come down and spank you out of existence).
@wraggal
@wraggal 10 месяцев назад
I think a further added element is allowing the player to absolutely destroy an enemy that a few hours earlier was a total roadblock. Gives a real feel of progression. The mistake a lot of games make is then giving that lower level enemy to you in droves, which makes it feel like a chore, and usually makes the harder enemies feel like sponges, because their ai hasn't gotten better, their health bar has.
@BknMoonStudios
@BknMoonStudios 10 месяцев назад
One of my favorite Hard Modes in any game is in *_Castlevania: Order of Ecclessia._* Enemies don't gain extra life, they do deal extra damage, but more importantly: 1) Enemies gain new properties that fundamentally change how you need to fight them. (Spiders move with the speed of squirrels on crack, bone pillars shoot fireballs like machineguns, living armors attack crazy fast and deal obssene damage, etc.) 2) Enemy placements change drastically. (You get endgame enemies as early as the second area of the game.) 3) Previously useless abilities suddenly become INSANELY USEFUL. (Zombie familiar is an effective shield against projectiles, the stun bomb weapon Topor is almost required to survive large groups of enemies, etc.)
@japanimationman4442
@japanimationman4442 10 месяцев назад
My favorite example for this is Sega's old classic, Altered Beast. You start out as a scrawny dude in a lady's swimsuit getting your ass handed to you, but as you get more spirit orbs you beef up and eventually turn into a werewolf that throws fireballs demolishing everything in sight without any effort. Until the boss shows up and you have a challenge again. Then you start the next level returned to your lady's swimsuit and have to work your way back again. Basically, the difficulty curve should wobble a bit, giving the player challenges, then letting them savor the sweet taste of revenge, before giving them a new thing that needs to be revenged on. This gets more complicated with RPG mechanics, but the concept still holds true there as well.
@chrissilver9302
@chrissilver9302 10 месяцев назад
He almost had me. I really like bell curve games, where the end rewards you for getting more powerful, not making the power obsolete.
@M4ruta
@M4ruta 10 месяцев назад
I recently had this experience when playing _Chernobylite,_ a FPS/RPG set in a dystopian near future in the Chernobyl Dead Zone. In the first half of the game I had to rely almost entirely on stealth because I didn't a chance against more than one enemy at a time, but by the end I was mowing down entire patrols before they could even spot me. And I found it to be incredibly cathartic, like all the build-up of tension and sometimes frustration was paying of by letting me have my power fantasy of being an unstoppable one-man-army.
@cale115
@cale115 9 месяцев назад
There are a many dry, witty, sarcastic, pessimistic, British or former empire commentators on RU-vid; from true crime to video games, and I love the style every time.
@leeragdoll3458
@leeragdoll3458 10 месяцев назад
One thing i still remember fondly about MGS:V TPP’s difficulty design is that the game will counter your most relied on strategy. Most players like me rely on silenced headshots thus the game will start equipping heavy helmets to every soldier. The player is forced to switch up their gameplay style or just brute force the original strategy (ie shooting in between the eyehole in helmet). As game further progress we also unlock the ability to sabotage helmet supply by spending some resources.
@Greywander87
@Greywander87 9 месяцев назад
I've had the idea for a Zelda-style game where instead of getting a heart container after beating a boss, you have to sacrifice a heart container to seal the boss away. This creates a natural difficulty curve that would work quite well for an open world game where you can tackle the dungeons in any order, as it means the last dungeon will always be harder than the first one. Another thing to consider is difficulty scaling with the number of tactical options. Early on, you only have a few things you can do, so the gameplay is pretty simple. As you progress and unlock new abilities, you get "stronger" because you can do more things, but the gameplay actually gets harder because now you have more options to juggle. Just as a simple example, if you have a platformer where you can get a double-jump powerup, then any jump you face before getting the powerup necessarily can't require a double-jump. Although having a double-jump makes you stronger, it also allows the introduction of new challenges that _require_ a double-jump, but you can also have challenges where a normal jump is required and a double-jump will get you killed. As another example, you might start as a mage with a fire spell. Any enemy or puzzle you face has to be beatable using fire. But later you might get a lightning spell, or an ice spell, and now you have to figure out which spell is the right one to use in a given situation. Having more spells makes you "stronger", but it also means the game can be more difficult because you need to use all the options at your disposal. This increases exponentially when you can chain different spells together to get even more effects. I know this might sound really obvious, but I think it's something that a lot of people "know" but don't really understand. If all you have is a hammer, then the only challenges you can deal with are nails. If all you're doing is throwing challenges at the player that require using the hammer for one, the screwdriver for another, and the hacksaw for a third, then you're missing out. You need challenges that require all three where the player has to rapidly switch between them. In Dark Souls 1, you could play the entire game cowering behind a shield (or at least I did on my first playthrough), but Sekiro doesn't give you that option, requiring you to use _all_ your tools to avoid attacks instead of just leaning into your favorite.
@RottedReviews
@RottedReviews 10 месяцев назад
This is one of the reasons I love RDR2 so much. It took the unique idea of leveling up skillsets of the character, unlocking weapons and such, but used the framework of the story to understandably, believably, and in heartbreaking fashion... make the player *weaker*, which increased the challenge *as* it introduced bigger and more difficult scenarios.
@templarw20
@templarw20 10 месяцев назад
I think another good example is a number of the Metroid games. Most "mainline" games (Starting with Super) increase your offensive power as you get more beams, but in Prime the extra beams are just extra utilities, rather than (noticeably) extra power. Go back into the early sections of SotN, Super Metroid, and the like and you'll be wiping the floor with enemies that used to take a few shots. But in Prime you're still having to do the same charge/lock/blast combinations.
@bradb9635
@bradb9635 10 месяцев назад
The player *does* get stronger in Space Invaders and Mario, not because the in-game avatar is more powerful, but because the real-world person playing the game is growing more skilled over time. This is how those games achieve the balance you discussed.
@benmcleish7302
@benmcleish7302 10 месяцев назад
It’s so cool to see how much fun you’re all having with these videos. That end advert is fucking funny as hell.
@cybertramon0012
@cybertramon0012 10 месяцев назад
Calling this a balancing act is probably the best way to describe it. The game balancing making things more difficult with making things easier. A good balance makes it so that you do feel more powerful as you go on. Like, you come across an elite that used to be a boss monster, plus his identical mates. On his own, he nearly killed you several times and you won by the skin of your teeth. But now you've got enough abilities and upgraded gear that you're killing the lot of them with much less trouble, often without getting injured. And then you come across a new boss monster that becomes an elite later on, and rinse and repeat. On the other hand, there's the bad balancing. Something Yahtzee pointed out in the EP about whether games should be fun. In Gotham Knights, because everything is level-focused and the goons level up with you, you need to constantly upgrade your gear just to maintain the same DPS as you did before. And that's not fun at all, because you're not feeling stronger than before. You just feel the same.
@danya023
@danya023 10 месяцев назад
Automation games, like Factorio, do this really well. At the start you have no tools available, so you do mindless resource gathering until you acquire basic automation, which you can use to unlock more advanced automation which can do more, but requires more and more advanced resources, and more thinking to acquire and deliver them. The factory must grow to meet the needs of the growing factory, so even though you're always getting new tools, this never removes challenge, only substitutes it for a different kind of challenge.
@PlehAP
@PlehAP 10 месяцев назад
I always felt the best example of the difficulty balance I have seen in video games is Dead Space. It has such a natural curve that beat for beat follows the narrative tension so every horror movie the player has ever seen is giving them perfect context to understand exactly what they need to do and what their options are. It's worth noting this exact balance point is the special sauce in RPGs generally. A core ingredient of any game of D&D is knowing how and when to let the players have fun squishing bugs, or throw a curveball, or drop a nails hard souls boss.
@hartthorn
@hartthorn 10 месяцев назад
I feel like part of it is about diffusing difficulty into an array of elements. Game gives you a grapple gun. You are then put through a series of challenges on the grapple gun, each increasing in difficulty. But once you hit the "master challenge" of the grapple gun, there's not as much direct challenge to that SPECIFIC skill. But by having that skill at your disposal, other challenges are easier. Or you can approach challenges in new ways. As you acquire new abilities, there SHOULD be segments that let you just show off. Deploying your earned abilities in new, interesting combinations to conquer challenges that would have been impossible beforehand. But you are correct that if that ability is just "do the thing but do it without even trying" it does take away from the game. In my mind, I'm imagining that ability being more of a kind of line attack. In the beginning, it would be short, but basically give you that extra 10 feet you needed to rush and takedown a dude that you wouldn't have been able to in time normally. It's not game breaking, but it makes you that little bit more quick and efficient. As it levels up, the line gets longer and IF you can get a couple dudes all along the same line you CAN get a rapid fire multi kill. But it still takes time and precision, it's not just the world's quietest grenade. Maybe even a later upgrade that makes the path deform along walls and stuff so you can insta-climb smaller barriers without attracting attention and nabbing those balcony guards.
@NoOneUsesThis
@NoOneUsesThis 10 месяцев назад
Code Name S.T.E.A.M. was a weird xcom-like thing on the 3ds with an interesting take on this topic. As you played you unlocked new characters to build your squad and new weapons to give them, and new enemy types were added, but there was no XP or levels of any kind. Balance was fixed from the start and difficulty was only created with enemy types, placement, and the mission environment complexity.
@sterling7
@sterling7 10 месяцев назад
It bears note that "game must get harder" was born out of the coin-op arcade scene. And as a veteran arcade-game player, I rather feel part of the downfall of same correlates notably with the skew from "25 cents buys you seven minutes, possibly much more if you're good" to "a dollar buys you two minutes, no saving throw." It feels like there also needs to be some differentiation between "after 50 kills, you unlock the ability to make the guards blind and deaf" and "after three hours, maybe the player is actually getting pretty good at this".
@SgtFCFox
@SgtFCFox 10 месяцев назад
I think my favorite example of “stronger but harder” is the killing floor games. As you go through the levels you get more powerful weapons and are able to kill low level zeds easier. So what does the game do? The low level zeds don’t get harder to kill, they just introduce more and more higher level enemies, so the first level you’re fighting clots and crawlers, and the last level is spent fighting off scrakes and fleshpounds and husks (oh my!)
@KBABZ
@KBABZ 10 месяцев назад
4:25 This is actually something I feel about Super Mario Bros. 3. If the level design is so good, why does the game go out of its way to reward the player with an item that lets them skip over it? - a few seconds later- Oh hey Yahtz actually brought up Mario 3 as an example!
@TimesChu
@TimesChu 10 месяцев назад
The Spectacle Fighter genre is, I think, a good example of a genre that breaks down this principle to its bare essentials. The game definitely wants the player to feel cool and powerful by giving them new moves and abilities, but also demands they earn that feeling by using those abilities to do cool things. It's no good just to use Stinger to fly around the battlefield stabbing enemies in DMC V. You have to throw them into the air, do a triple axle off your motorcycle, slash them to pieces with your sword, launch them 500 feet, and then blow them up with a rocket launcher.
@PANCAKEMINEZZ
@PANCAKEMINEZZ 10 месяцев назад
Sekiro is an excellent example of the player getting stronger but the challenge ramps up. A player getting stronger isn't mutually exclusive with the game giving that player an easier time broadly. The player getting stronger is empowered by gaining more tools and way to handle situations in more intuitive ways. Case in point, Sekiro. You are stronger at the end of the game vs where you started: you have more prosthetic tools, do more damage, have access to more moves like Mikiri counter, etc. And yet Isshin, the final boss, is still a wonderful challenge because he challenges you on your proficiency with those tools while also leaving room to experiment.
@stevenneiman1554
@stevenneiman1554 10 месяцев назад
Power growth has a lot of different uses. For a few examples: - You can use it as a reward and a reason to engage with optional content that gives loot or XP. - You can make the process of choosing upgrades and buildcrafting engaging in its own right. - You can use it to drip-feed new mechanics which the player is encouraged (or required) to master. - You can tie power-ups to key story beats in a satisfying way - You can use it to ramp up the difficulty aggressively (or just present an impossible challenge from the start) and let players set their own difficulty by how many upgrades they work to earn The problem is that AAA studios see so many cases where it adds to the experience for so many different reasons that they forget that just because multiple reasons exist doesn't make them exempt from doing things for at least one of those reasons and not just because it's in fashion for reasons they don't understand. And that they aren't exempt from having to make a progression system that has merit on its own and doesn't cripple the gameplay.
@XSpamDragonX
@XSpamDragonX 10 месяцев назад
As someone who's main enjoyment in FarCry 3 was taking out every outpost with the bow and knife takedowns, I felt like I was getting stronger with the multi-takedowns and other abilities, but at the same time it seemed like the outposts were getting more difficult to take stealthily. I agree completely with Yahtzee
@Yuhara_rev
@Yuhara_rev 10 месяцев назад
I like arkham knight's approach to difficulty, as batman gets more and more gadgets, the game constantly adds new enemy types to the mix. So many annoying ones too, though in a good way. The stealth ones are especially great imo. The detective vision jammer/detector, and also the optically camouflaged types disrupt the over-reliance on the detective mode. Man I really wish there are more games with stealth like it, where you have a lot of tools to mess with the enemies without making it a cakewalk.
@MattCraig-s3n
@MattCraig-s3n 10 месяцев назад
Love the merch ad at the end, felt like hitting the subscribe button 5 more times, not that it would do anything, love the new content and that you're in control of your own destiny.
@admcleo
@admcleo 10 месяцев назад
Difficulty and its appropriateness is a very interesting discussion that deserves a lot more attention. It feels like there isn't enough discussion and a distressingly limited vocabulary regarding the subject. There are different interpretations of difficulty and different interpretations of player power and often it seems failure to distinct between different expressions of both just cause needless arguing past one another. I think anyone who plays video games can think of a time where a game being 'difficult' was really just being 'tedious' just as everyone can think of a game where a single power in a progression tree either made the game 'easy' or sometimes was the key component in making the game 'fun' going forward.
@cyberswordsmen8198
@cyberswordsmen8198 10 месяцев назад
I think the way the game Prototype did this well. You got all kinds of upgrades to make you much stronger but as the story advances more and more of the city becomes infested and more military forces arrive with new and stronger threats popping up that you will justify needing those powers. But the low danger stuff never vanishes so you can still run around like a god if you feel like it if you avoid the things that are threats.
@shadowscribe
@shadowscribe 10 месяцев назад
I would contest the Ezio comparison because in that game one of the conceits was you becoming an all powerful mob-boss. But don't forget Skyrim is a clinic on how not to "fix" the issue by simply having enemies get stronger as you do, negating the point of getting stronger at all because mooks kicking your teeth in at level one will still kick your teeth in at level 20. And they'll be flat out curb-stomping you if you had the gall to put a level into anything that wouldn't kill them better.
@MissSallyB1
@MissSallyB1 10 месяцев назад
nice to see the big-ass tarantulas survived the ZP purge, she says as she scrubs herself down with rubbing alcohol and screams from the massive case of the jibblies.
@darthelmet1
@darthelmet1 10 месяцев назад
Spot on. The point of getting stronger in these games shouldn’t be to make everything easier, it’s to make it feasible to rise to the challenges that would have previously kicked your ass. The important details here: 1) you want the rise in difficulty and power to be sharp and qualitative as much as possible. If you say, play a game where the enemy numbers smoothly go up and your numbers smoothly go up, then the game just always feels the same. It neither feels like you’re getting stronger nor the game is getting harder. You need to come across a challenge and be able to recognize the ways in which your new tools made this doable. 2) It helps if the player has the opportunity to engage with the challenge before they’ve prepared for it so they understand that they’re lacking in some way and need to do something to get better/stronger. That way it feels like the challenge is out there in the world independent of the player and you need to rise above it. If you get introduced to power upgrades as needed for the challenges, it just feels arbitrary.
@Olhado256
@Olhado256 10 месяцев назад
If I can point something out, Ubisoft games are never about fun. They're about giving the player a long list of things to do and then making the player feel that they're accomplishing something in life by completing those tasks. Removing some of the gameplay makes PERFECT sense in this context because it gets you to the end faster.
@echofactor1977
@echofactor1977 10 месяцев назад
Heck yeah, one of the reasons Skyrim is so enduring is that Game Get Hard but Player Get Strong... however they want to get strong. Even a casual with practically no hand eye coordination like myself can have a blast as a sneaky arrow wielding bastard, and so can a "get in the thick of it" button smashing melee fighter. That's a balance few other games handle as well as Skyrim, I think. It's probably too much work for most developers to think of more than a single progression path. Keep up the good work, and congrats on the new venture, Yahtzee and crew!
@masterofdoom5000
@masterofdoom5000 10 месяцев назад
Strength can be knowledge about how to apply mechanics or enemy weakness, harder can be variations and groupings that make threats out of old jokes and big threats into tyrants of my life. There are so many ways a game can make you immensely strong and still be harder than the start, even if a lot of games suffer from reverse difficulty curve due to the sheer abundance of mistakes you can make or problems you can solve with mid-late game abilities/items.
@christopherschanley4476
@christopherschanley4476 10 месяцев назад
Jack Packard's voice should ironically be used for You Don't Know Jack. Great delivery.
@michaelclements5793
@michaelclements5793 9 месяцев назад
This was my exact gripe about AC Valhalla and games in general. I got just too powerful to the point that everything seemed pointless. I want to feel more powerful over time to be sure, but I want the bad guys to be growing too and providing a challenge worthy of my strength. Unfortunately, this is rare.
@jakfrost2
@jakfrost2 10 месяцев назад
Generally you oscillate difficulty; introduce scary new enemy, then powerful tool that helps against them. Like a riot shield enemy then a hook shot to get behind them. Or the reverse; a piwerful tool then an enemy that counters it and requires you to rethink your strategy, like dogs that aggressively persue you in last of us 2.
@lothar314159
@lothar314159 10 месяцев назад
I think the TTRPG Pathfinder is a great example of a game where maintaining the balance between difficulty and character development is the primary design concern. It manages to pull this off far better than DnD, with far fewer accidental total party kills at level 1 and balanced encounters above level 15.
@thearceus98
@thearceus98 10 месяцев назад
I run into the equal and opposite problem playing games like fallout and borderlands that "level scale." You start the game with incredibly scrappy fights, winning by pulling off a headshot against someone who could do same to you. As you level up though, it takes more and more headshots to take down the same enemy while they continue to shred through your health bar. By the end, you've got 300 abilities slowly slicing millimeters off a health bar while all yours bar jump up and down like kids in a bounce house.
@benjaminlammertz64
@benjaminlammertz64 10 месяцев назад
That's what i loved about the first two "Gothic" games: There is no enemy scaling, the strongest enemies are in the world from the very start. And though the world is technically open, those strong enemies keep you from exploring most of it in the beginning (allthough you can circumvent this through sneaking/running past them or ressourcefully using a *very* limited amount of magic scrolls). The enemies also do not respawn and aren't randomly generated, so monster x at location y always stays the same. In the beginning of the game, fighting monster x is suicide and getting to what's next to it nearly impossible. But as you get stronger, one by one, you become able to defeat those enemies that once you could only flee from. And it makes the progression that much more satisfying. It's not like in most RPGs where you are in a certain zone, grind until you can one-hit all the random encounter enemies, progress to the next zone with slighty stronger enemies, grind until you can one-hit them and so forth. Getting stronger really means something if it enables you to revisit the guy who beat you up and robbed you at the beginning of the game to serve some sweet sweet revenge.
@kris123o
@kris123o 10 месяцев назад
I went on this video and the channel had 335k subs. Went to watch the Fully Ramblomatic video and its on 353k!!! Can't wait for this channel to smash the escapists sub count.
@psycthom
@psycthom 5 месяцев назад
One pro tip is that games' difficulty doesn't have to be completely linear - as the player gets stronger they can have some cathartic sections to try out their super powers while there are pain-points to challenge them.
@ReginaldAnteel
@ReginaldAnteel 10 месяцев назад
I liken this to the BFG in Doom and Quake 2. In that it’s rewarding watching a group of 20 minor enemies turn to mush, but it’s countered by enemies who can tank the damage and ammo consumption and it punishes you if you misuse it.
@JustSomeRandomIdiot
@JustSomeRandomIdiot 10 месяцев назад
I would argue that even in games without RPG elements, skill trees, leveling, gear, or literally any game mechanic that makes the player 'stronger', the player does inevitably usually get stronger, through simply doing the same thing over and over again and getting better at it. Which fits neatly into everything Yahtzee is saying about balance. In Crash Bandicoot, the first one anyway, you don't unlock better ways of jumping or the ability to run faster. The controls are more or less the same from start to finish. What gets more powerful is the player, because they get lots of practice and get better at the game and improve their mental coordination/control over the character, and that's why the levels have to increasingly require more and more precise timing of actions in order for the game to remain feeling challenging.
@ClanCrusher
@ClanCrusher 10 месяцев назад
Even though it may have shattered any sense of difficulty, I really enjoyed Brotherhood's guild mechanics. Being able to casually walk down a street while your associates stealthily assassinate everyone around you was an amazing power trip that really made me feel like the leader of an organization of assassins. It was like everywhere I went, I was always being shadowed by my allies who were ready to hop out and assist me at any moment. Challenging? Not even slightly. But it felt appropriately rewarding for putting in the effort to build up your guild. On the other hand, watching the assassin in Mirage mark four enemies and teleport around to kill them just looks awkward and strange. Doesn't really communicate a sense of 'power' to me. Feels more like the animus is glitching out and giving you speed hacks.
@Blue2x2x
@Blue2x2x 10 месяцев назад
Sounds like the Skyrim's sneaky archer build vs any other builds conundrum. If you try anything but a sneaky archer, most times you get overwhelmed with attacks, as the game punishes you by going running head on, or use fire and ice spray out in the open. So you slowly get one by one, using the 1 note AI to your advantage, use a bow to get hard to reach targets, and then you suddenly realize that you're doing a sneaky archer build. On top of that the game itself scales with you so you can't go grind to get strong enough to 1-punch man on giants.
@ThomasWindar
@ThomasWindar 10 месяцев назад
That's well put - what you want is Balance between "Game getting harder" and "Player getting stronger". You can see this in Action RPGs if they got balanced correctly - but funny enough, "Vampire Survivors" and its genre when done right showcases this as well. At first, not many monsters appear and you have barely any power to deal with them. But as you gain more power, you visibly see how you mow down waves of enemies easily - but the amount of enemies increases to absurd levels. So all that power gets actually used. It's difficult to nail down though - cause what matters is how the player "feels" here. Which is often hard to explain to someone if they don't play their own game long enough to notice they are getting bored...
@kirbyrawstorne
@kirbyrawstorne 9 месяцев назад
Great video as always! Glad to see all of you doing so well! I would put forward the argument that you need to both increase the difficulty of the game and the power level of the player, but do it in various peaks and troughs. If they player is getting more powerful and the game increases to match them, then it just feels like nothing has changed, which is essentially the complaint that was made about Gotham Knights - grinding to keep at the same level. Whereas, if you increase your power and the game gets easier for a little while (a peak) and then slightly harder again when a new enemy type/boss/level is introduced (trough), you get the catharsis of being a badass for a little while, followed by the catharsis of being given a new challenge to overcome.
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