The Disappearance (and Survival) of 'Thou' 

As a Canadian taught French from a young age, it blew my mind when I realized that "thou" was the English analogue to "tu", because the "thou became too informal or rude to ever use" theory also occurred to me then, and it struck me as a hilarious reversal that, in modern times, thee and thou are considered extremely formal or reverent entirely because the only places a modern English speaker is exposed to them are Shakespeare and the King James Bible.

Very interesting, just wanted to point out that in NYorkshire & Teesside the following joke is still a thing: "Where's the bin?" "Oh, nowhere really, just the pub. Where's thou been?"

I made it one of my life goals to bring back thou. I've made zero progress whatsoever, but the hope is still alive.

Sorry to hear about the plague. Hope you mend quickly! Stay well, Simon!

My great-great grandmother was born in the 1860s in rural Newfoundland, she lived into the 1950s and I was told that she used "thee" and "thou" in everyday speech. She would have been descended from West Country English immigrants from the late1700s, I believe.

I’m from Oldham and I grew up using “tha”/“thee” & which I guess is a variant of “thou”. I like it more than “you”, it sounds more natural and friendly. I like the way “me” and “thee” feel together, closer than “me “ and “you”, they feel like they jar together

The most honest, no-bullshit channel on RU-vid. Can't get enough.

In Thomas Hardy’s under the greenwood tree, a girl getting married admonishes her father not to use the word “thou” at her wedding because it is old fashioned. Maybe in some contexts, the language was actively changed by a younger generation.

Simon mentions Jacques Bellot's "Familiar dialogues" (1586). The book was written to teach Huguenot refugees from France everyday English. This book includes a dialogue between three schoolchildren and their nanny before they go to school. In this dialog, they constantly address each other with "you", and not a single time with "thou". This seems to give evidence that "thou" had completely fallen out of use at the end of the 16th century, even within the family and among children. The book was directed to adult refugees who didn't go to school any more. Those refugees were to be taught how to have conversation with native adults, for example when shopping at the market. In such situations, it was obligatory to use the polite you-form. When at home, the Huguenot refugees would have spoken among each other (and to their children) in French language. Maybe Bellot considered it abundant to teach the French refugees the thou-form which they wouldn't use at all anyway. This does not necessarily mean the fiorm didn't exist any more in spoken contemporary English. P.S.: By the way, it is very interesting to read Bellot's dialogues, since Bellot transcribes the written English into a pronounced form. So we get a picture of English pronunciation in London in 1586. For example, the pronunciation of the sentence "Peter, where layde you your nightcap?" is denounced: "Piter, houer led you yor neict kep". This shows that the "h" in "where" was still spoken at the beginning of the word, as was the case with the gh-sound in "night". The diphtong in "night" was pronounced else than it is today. To form questions with"to do" as auxiliary verb was not obligatory yet.

I have no idea why, but I like just listening to you talk about random stuff, not even about languages etc You have a fascination about you

My Grandmother was from Ashton under Lyne in what was then Lancashire, born in 1914. Thou evolved into tha and she used it and thee until the end of her life in 1991. Examples "tha'd better get going or tha'll be late" or "where's tha been". Thee tended to be used in words like "thee-sel" for yourself (thi-sen in Yorkshire). I still use both occasionally as do many here in Manchester. Certainly those in Lancashire towns

I hope your illness passes easily. And here in the US, Quakers still use Thou and occasionally Thee.

Fascinating. Can confirm that in the Dales an old boy, perhaps now only in drink, might say "if thou has any more pups out of that dog of thine, I want one". Or "hast tha' done it?"would still be commonly said

Get well soon, glad to see another video!

I'm from rural Missouri, typically the only exposure we regularly have to Thou and Thee (other than Shakespeare) is the Bible. I'm frankly quite surprised to hear that they were still (and still may be) in use as recently as the 20th century. I often wonder how diverse the language will be a century from now. Always love your videos Simon, it's scholars such as yourself that really push forward the intrigue of science and history in our modern era

I've recently been learning more about my own legacy dialect, Wiltshire English, and from the literature I've read it seems like thou/thee survived until very recently even here, though mostly with thee having supplanted the nominative form. I so wish I could have been alive to hear that part of the dialect! I'm also aware that the traditional third person masculine pronoun was he/hin, not he/him. I think I might still occasionally hear that one, if only in reduced form (I saw them talkin' to 'n).

My dad, born in 1962 in Sutton, remembers thou and thee being used by many people during his childhood

That's very interesting. Could you also talk about words "frozen" in different cases (like who and whom) maybe even in other languages as well.

Wonderful as usual. I went through this transition when I came to Austria in '82 and realized the connection between "thou" and German "du". Lots of themes and subthemes here. Lunch is on me if you're ever in town. Cheers from cloudy Vienna, Scott

Really interesting - thanks very much! And hope you are feeling fully recovered soon😊

Thee is absolutely still used in Lancashire, though in rare instances

Thank you for providing such interesting content. I hope you'll get better soon!

Ten years or so I lived in a large village near the South Yorkshire/Linconshire border. It was "tha" and "the" all the way in social circles, but reserved primarily for "be" and "have" ("tha's"). They also say "me sen", "the sen" , "y'sen", and "his sen" for my/they/your/himself.

Wonderful, thanks

Let's bring back thou! Thou for singular familiar, y'all for plural, and you for formal

As an ex-pat Southerner domiciled in Sheffield for nearly two decades, one does find "tha'" being used, generally in jest, and generally as a way of invoking a sense of recently passed tradition. It's a way of speaking those in their 50s-70s remember their parents and grandparents speaking. It's not voiced often, but often enough, especially when a local is seeking to assert (comic) dominance over an outsider. A local small record label is named "Do It Thissen Records" in honour of the dialect. Sheffielders have been known locally as "De Dahs" for the way they historically voiced their "Thee" and "Thou", taking a harder consonant sound, perhaps more similar to the Proto-Indo-European you reference at the start. It came up in conversation recently, and one friend recalled a few instances of hearing it still recently with an older chap at work, but it was subtle. The 'D-' pronunciations were apparently still more commonly extant in the 1970s, but a minority concern and more with folk who'd have been born in the first quarter of the century. Thank you for another excellent episode!

Tx for this presentation. It fits with what I know and was told. My paternal grandmother, born 1890 in the High Peak (nr Sheffield) used both thou and thee when addressing me as late as 1980 but not her son/daughter-in-law; I don't remember how she conjugated second person singulars. On the other hand my mother told me that her grandfather (b High Peak 1865) used thee both in the nominative and accusative, for everyone. But he was a Quaker.

I grew up Mormon in Utah. Born in 1975. Mormons in the 80s (and before, presumably) addressed God in prayer with thou and thee, including the correct verb conjugations, eg art, hast, dost, etc. Thus, I learned how to use thou, without direct instruction. Younger Mormons now do not use thou, and I hear its use in church has drastically declined. God is just addressed as you now.

A late-ish example from another northern dialect is the song When The Boat Comes In, which is from Tyneside in I think the first half of the 19th century: "Thou shalt have a fishy on a little dishy / Thou shalt have a fishy when the boat comes in." (Note also the -t verb ending still in use there.)

1. From "thou" to "you" When did the royal "we" come into use? Because once I heard that "you" used to be the plural, I started wondering if maybe it was analogically related (if you're gonna have a royal "we", why not a royal "you"?). 2. Northern England's preservation of "thou" I definitely think it's a rural/distance from London thing. Another example of London setting trends in the South that never made it north would be the loss of syllable final "r", correct? In which case, it doesn't seem strange to me for that kind of thing to be a northern pattern overall. Love your videos, Simon! Keep it up!

Mate, your videos are real art! I totally enjoy the minimalistic style in which you wrap your videos. There's nothing that makes your attention wander as in those highly animated films. And the appearances of nature and mountains every now and again make the overall narration much more pleasant! Not only your videos are educational, they are beautiful and nice to look at. As if you’re taking a breath of a cool October air in the early morning. ------------------------ When I heard the recording of the old people speaking I almost jumped off my chair - what an incredible gem it is to HEAR the authentic speech of the people who speak a language that was common centuries ago. ------------------------ I am from Russia, although I am Belorussian, studying polish philology in Poland now and teaching English as second Language. And I am telling ye- the way you present the subject is one of the best on youtube! Keep going and thank you very much indeed! ------------------------ P.S. in slavic languages "thu2" is pronounced like [tɨ] ( ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%82%D1%8B ) which is very interesting since the vowel made its way all the way from the rear to the front of the mouth. From [u2] to [ɨ].

I always noted in the English TV show "The Last of the Summer Wine," the oldest man of the three friends (I forget his character's name) used thou and thee.

My dad grew up in southern California and Nevada in the '30s and '40s. and would sometimes say "Between thee and me". I do it too. But I suspect that for him, like me, it was an affectation rather than the community he grew up in. That -s ending is interesting. That's a good examination. Thank you. I hope your recovery is good.

My Yorkshire grandfather used 'tha' quite a lot. My dorset grandfather used 'ee' for 'thee' a lot, and also 'en' for 'him' (cf. OE hine). I notice someone in the comments referring to Devon 'thikky' - older West Dorset speakers use 'thik' for that sometimes.

I wish thee bettership!

Thank you

Some vowel sounds, like in: ' Stirks ' are very reminiscent of old Norfolk

An interesting thing to note is that in certain varieties of American English a singular plural distinction began to arise. You (stressed) / ya (unstressed) for singular/informal situations and then y'all for pural/formal situations. But like with thou/you in EME, y'all began to supplant you/ya in almost all situations to the point where speakers of those dialects now are seeming to say y'all for singular and all y'all as a plural.

Super video! Very informative and comprehensive. I look forward to you tackling "ye" - or maybe you've already got a video on this subject? In Southern Ireland, 'ye' (pronounced 'yee', rhymes with 'me') is the common 2nd pers. plural form in all cases (Nom. Dat. Acc.), with a personal possessive pronoun "yeer", as in 'yeer houses", for example. I don't think I have ever heard 'thou' in Ireland as a 2nd pers. singular in ordinary speech, nor have I seen it in 19th C. Irish literature in English. It's all 'you' and unstressed form 'ya'. Maybe someone else knows more?

13:15 again referring to my Philadelphia upbringing, the diphthong in a word like "house" would come out something like "hey-owse". Best wishes for good health.

In Lancashire in the middle of the last century I remember that a person would be said to be `Theeing and Thouing` when using the `old fashioned` way of speech.

This is like the French "Vous" and "Tu". Same meaning but, the Tu form is for those closer to you.

I also got parosmia from covid about a year ago. Things taste fine now but smells are still funky. It feels like this is just how it is now.

I am a British Quaker with many contacts in North America. The use of thee and thou lasted a bit longer in the US than in Britain but has disappeared completely except among the most strictly traditional groups centered on Ohio and North Carolina. Within the last few years I have been asked "and why does that bother thee?" and overheard "if thou emailest me..." This is far from universal even among these groups and I doubt it will last much longer. Another Quaker trait, calling the days of the week and months of the year by number rather than pagan names, has lasted a bit longer in writing although in speech one really only hears the occasional reference to First Day School or Meeting

I still use it. 🤠 I'm in Texas also.

12:55 I think this "dista" comes from "dost thou", preserving the old -st verb ending for second person singular.

Simon, you didn't mention the King James Bible and the language influence it still has. As an idiosyncrasy of Mormons, and perhaps some other minor sects, to this day they use 'King James English' in their public (and presumably private) prayers: Heavenly Father, we thank thee for thy many blessings, and we ask thee that thou would(st) bless us, etc. Even very small children parrot this in prayer and by the baptismal age of eight, most LDS youth are fluent in KJV English prayer.

Sheffield, Barnsley . . . etc

"See all, hear all, say nowt. Eat all, sup all, pay nowt. An' if tha ivver does owt fer nowt, allus do it fer thissen."

"Thou" and related forms are definitely the familiar style in the King James Bible: "who art in heaven", "hallowed be thy name" and "thy kingdom come" are addressed to God the Father, so yes, it's like "du" and "tu", just as Jesus said we should . Easy to see, though, how because it's heard in a sacred context people think it has to be formal. Yes, ironic, and exactly the opposite of what Jesus was telling us. Shakespeare was pretty inconsistent in his use of you/thou in his plays, though that could equally be down to the printer/editor in many cases.

I have been addressed as "thou". Can't remember exactly where or when but some time in the 20th century, probably about 1980.

Still alive and well in Sheffield!

Using plural you to express politeness is not only French phenomenon. It's very common in Slavic languages and others too. In Polish e.g. this disapeared recently (replaced with Pan/Pani) but it was common even as late as before WW 2 and in some extent in commie times. So I think that may be a general european thing and might have existed in English even before the French influence begun.

the timely reminder of my existential crisis

This is why we in the southern USA say “y’all” for more than one person. English needs a plural form of the second person pronoun, but I can’t bring myself to say, “you guys.” “Y’all” is very useful.

When I do a Bible translation, I want to use thee, thou, thy, and thine just to help clarify some passages.

Is there a way I can contact you Simon? I'd very much like to work with you on a small private project, to record a letter being read aloud, with the vocal nuances of a man born around 1920.

In Cost Rican Spanish the ‘tu’ pronoun - ubiquitus in standard Spanish - is complete abscent and replaced by the (technically plural) honorific ‘usted,’ seemingly as part of the overall trend towards indirect speech for politeness. I speculate that it is not so much that costarricans are more polite than is customary in the neighboring cultures, but instead that CR has a strong value for extending equal honor to everyone uniformly.

If this ‘risk of offence is the reason for the loss of thou and thee, why do they persist in lots of similar European countries?

I'm a Ph.D in English Medieval History...and I deeply appreciate your videos. You delve into subjects I wish I had the time to do so. Thank you for your scolarship.

Funny enough, many of my older relatives think of (and use) Thee and Thou as the more formal version, because they belong an orthodox Protestant church that still uses the King James Bible. They equate the words to be more "holy" or solemn I guess, kind of the exact opposite of the Quaker approach. I once tried to explain the irony of it to them, but they weren't having any of that, especially from a kid :)

My Mum was working a nurse in East Devon in the 1980s and she nursed patients - often farming folk - who still used thee, thy and thou. There’s also the Devon dialect word ‘thikky’ which means ‘that’ and is still used by a handful the older generation.

I’m a roofer in the West Country and some of the old lads still say thou and thine. “ ‘aand me thine ‘ammer” is a something I hear every day. They also say “hark” for listen, call birds of prey raptors, say “where be to?” (Where are you) every time I call them on my phone. They say “cassent” instead of can’t sometimes which is a really odd one.

In my wife's Derbyshire dialect (sadly dying out) they still use a modified form of thou. Nom and Acc are both "thee" which is almost the same as modern RPA "they" - with a hint of the vowel sound in "eye". Unstressed Acc thee is "thi" which rhymes with "this" without the final s. If one enquires after someone's health, the phrase is "Aah dust thi seem in thi sen?" = How do you seem in yourself? (Seem is midway between "same" and the vowel sound in "chime".) One day my father-in-law watched me trying to clean out a sheep shed and remarked "If ah wuh thee ah wunna dow it." (If I were you I wouldn't do it.) "Dow" is midway between RPA "dough" and initial diphthong sound of RPA vowel in "cut".

My grandad, born 1906 and raised in Sheffield, said his parents (born in the 1880s) used 'thou' and 'thee'. My mother (born 1934) also remembered her grandparents arguing, using 'thee'. And prawn cocktail crisps are always disgusting. Get well soon.

There's a fun but in Moby Dick where our man Ishmael is talking to the Quaker owners of the whaling ship and he mimicks them saying thee/ thou. They stare at him not sure if he's mocking

13:20: little note here Simon, the form [ðɐː] as you write it (though I personally would write it [ða]) is used only in the West Riding of Yorkshire since West Riding speech is essentially Midlands speech that moved north and so doesn't have the largely unshifted realisation of the House vowel kept from Middle English like truly Northern dialects such as Cumbrian or the North and East Riding Yorkshire dialects. To take the sentence at 13:13 to compare a "typical" version of North and West Yorkshire dialect it'd be written something like this in traditional orthography: In WR speech: naa, yor top-stooans is t'stooans at tha can't wall i t'wall when tha's/th'art wallin up. And in NR speech: noo, yor top-steeans is t'steeans at thoo can't wall when thoo's wallin up. Another note is that h-dropping is systematic in West Riding dialect so "haase" would be /a:s/.

i'm a Quaker in the US. i was excited to hear you mention plain speech, which is now far from plain with respect to its social context! i have never personally met any Friend who still practices it. several of my elder Friends who attended meetings during their upbringings have attested that they knew people who did. the practices of each individual meeting can vary widely, so i get the sense that it primarily persists in regions like Pennsylvania where Quaker roots run deeper into the past. i am also not well-traveled, so my sample size consists only of 3 different weekly meetings and 2 different yearly meetings. (most meetinghouses are associated with a yearly meeting that convenes several individual meetings together.) the practice of plain speech is very common in our historical literature, so it's great to hear such an informed explanation on the linguistics of thou and thee! i'm sorry to hear of your bout with COVID. i hope you recover quickly. to use a Friendly expression, i will hold you in the Light, Simon!

My husband got covid just before christmas 2020. It affected his sense of smell and taste and he only recently declared that everything seems to be back to normal again. My point is, don't be too alarmed if your changed sense of taste persists for a long while. It can still get back to normal even after longer than a year. Get well soon. Love the video, as usual!

You omit the usage of 'ee, as in "I'll give 'ee some advice". There are several expressions in the Birmingham and Black Country areas that still use "thee", as in "I'll see thee anon". Those areas also frequently use "her" instead of "she", as in "Her was goin' home", which I see as a throwback to "heo".

In Shetland we have _du_ /du/ and _dee_ /di/ which both hold strong today even for younger speakers in the country. We have the _I spaek/du spaeks/you spaek/(he/shø/it/hit) spaeks_ inflection as well.

Hi Simon, I can confirm that in Durham, "thou" is still used. Interestingly you will also hear it as "thous" meaning, "you have". Additionally, on Wearside "ye" is still used for "you". Something to look into?

Just discovered your channel Simon, wanted to comment on thee/thou. I'm a Black Country wench by upbringing and we still used thee and thou until the 70s: however that seemed to disappear with the advent of mass media, TV and radio. I moved to Barnsley in 1988 and lived there until 1999, and thee/thou was still in everyday usage then. Even now when I go back up there, my friends use them in my presence, things like "wass thaaaa wan?" (what do you want) and of course "Naaa den dee" (now then you).

Could we have a video about when and how the 3rd-person conjugation of verbs changed from -eth to -s (e.g. "thinketh" to "thinks"), and why this happened?

In "Little Women," set during & post-Civil War, the American protagonist meets, befriends, and eventually becomes romantically involved with a German gentleman, who, once they are engaged, begs her to address him in the "thee/thou" register in English, as it is closer to the formal/familiar distinctions preserved in German 2p singular pronouns.

As others have commented, Shetland dialect still commonly uses du, dee, dy, dine. In Orkney when I was a child in the 1970s I remember my father (born 1925) and his relatives from one of the smaller islands all using thoo, thee, thine, but only when speaking among themselves. He never spoke to me or anyone else like that, nor did my mother (from a rural parish on the mainland (i.e. main island)) speak like that, and people in Kirkwall, the county town, did not speak like that either.

Still used unironically, sounding like 'tha' in South Yorkshire. Common, Although less frequently as time passes

The 1980 song Upside Down by Diana Ross features her singing "I say to thee respectfully". 😊

In an early scene in “The Philadelphia Story,” James Stewart’s character finds himself being thee’d and thou’d by a suburban librarian. (Pennsylvania was famously settled by Quakers, among others.) To which he responded, “Dost thou have a washroom?”

I’ve been living in Sheffield for 15 years. At some point since moving here I have heard that people from surrounding towns such as Rotherham and Barnsley, refer to people from Sheffield as Dee-Dars. This is because they think people in Sheffield pronounce thee and tha as dee and da. If correct this does suggest a form of thou does still persist in South Yorkshire.

I got covid in July, after 2 years giving it the slip...during the bloody hottest temperatures I have ever known in the UK! I lost my sense of smell for 3 weeks and it was really disconcerting. It was like someone turned a dimmer switch right down in my nose/brain. Fortunately, no taste loss or change. The first 3-4 days were really horrible, feeling feverish. Get well soon Simon!

My dad is from West Yorkshire and only once in my life (when he was talking to his sister) did I hear him say "me and thee" instead of "we". It was in an affectionate context and I think he just slipped into a bit of dialect.

The loss of the thou/thee/ye/you distinction is one of English's greatest pities in my judgement. I vote we bring it back.

Still hear ‘thee’ and ‘thar’ used in Chesterfield (Derbyshire), mostly by older people. We call people from Sheffield ‘dee-dahs’ because that’s how they pronounce thee and thar 😂

Your videos are always so interesting. Keep up the good work!

I am 62 now and my father was Quaker. In the late 70's I visited a friend's family in Indiana. They were all Quakers, indeed most of the town was. They still used the thee form within the family and the town. It was used in both nominative and accusative; "is thee going to the store?" was a question I heard. However they used the you form with people not part of the Society of Friends. I found it interesting that something that had been originally intended to make everyone equal had evolved away from that.

I'm american but I use thee/thy sometimes, usually for fun with my wife and children. I sometimes say to my young daughter, SIT THYSELF DOWN PRINCESS, CLEAN THYSELF OFF PRINCESS. I don't say this to my wife for obvious reasons :)

I got it back in January. It made bananas taste really weird. And oats (which I mostly eat in the form of Cheerios - a name you Brits should appreciate ;-) and it made toothpaste taste pretty awful, so brushing of teeth was most unpleasant for the duration. Fortunately it did all eventually go back to normal, although it took several months. Anyways, hopefully you haven't any truly serious symptoms and recovery fully and quickly!

Don’t thee “thou” me; thou “thee” the’sen, and see if tha likst it. -phrase used when someone has been addressed inappropriately with the familiar form and reproves the one who has carried out the solipsism.

Thou (pronounced 'thoo') is still used in the north east around Chester-le-street and Durham by those (like my family) who were brought up hearing and speaking Pitmatic (the language of coal miners). "Thou'll get caad if thou diz'nt wear thee coat" ("you will catch cold if you don't wear your coat" - "thee" is a corruption of "thine", meaning "your") Love your work, here on ThouTube. I've been collecting Pitmatic words and phrases in spreadsheet for years (since moving south), I'll share it with you if you're interested.

‘thi’ and ‘thi’ for ‘thou’ and ‘thee’ is the version that appears in broad Staffordshire dialect, as in the famous phrase:- “Thi cossn’t yed a bo agin a wo ‘n’ yed it wi’ yed till thi bosses it” which means “You can’t head a ball against a wall and head it with your head till you bust it”. See the following video for an example of such speech ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PyDmlhlQCu0.html

How great thou art.

Hello from Texas. Thank You Simon. Speedy recovery to be able to enjoy your crisps.

I'm from the West Riding. I'm only in my early twenties, but I still regularly use 'tha' and less often 'thee' in informal language. "How'st tha bin?" as opposed to "How have you been?" for instance. Or "Did I give it thee?" instead of "Did I give it to you?".

What a lovely surprise to hear you mention Alex Turner in one of your videos! I've always felt that he was a great writer and noticed certain slang or jargon in his songs which always intrigue. Quite strange to have this small overlap in such strong interests of mine. Hope you're enjoying the new single if you're a fan, Simon.

I am originally from Sheffield and my late mother (b. 1932) always used thee and tha in her daily speech. She was from a mining village just outside Sheffield. People still use thee and tha at football matches in their chants e.g "Tha's gonna get tha (expletive deleted) head kicked in!"

I from Barnsley in South Yorkshire and some people still use 'tha' (nominative) and 'thi' ( short 'i' accusative and dative)

I hope thou shalt be fully recovered soon, Simon.

As a native dutch speaker, I can‘t help but notice how similar the vowel qualities of the spoken voice recordings of the Orton survey seem to certain dutch dialects in the northeast of the netherlands. Really interesting!

Wheear 'ast tha bin sin' ah saw thee, ah saw thee? On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at, On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at!