The Dumbest Weapon in TF2 

Oh add this to the potential fix for the razorback Reduce damage from behind and all melee weapons hitting the razorback will do the same thing as a blocked melee weapon making sniper retreating from an enemy at close range much much more easier and riskier for more deadly melee base sub class like demoknight and trolldier.

Main difference is this: An engineer nest is probably the most important part of the defense. so it needs a specific counter. A spy backstab is NOT the most important part of the offense, so it having a class specific counter is stupid

"i will outright to refuse to use" (u have the razorback equiped?) 1:49

I

Essentially its more of a case of what if engineer had a tool to prevent sapping entirely rather than why spy can backstab a sniper or sap a sentry

correction, this happened once: *myg0t has joined the server*

@@arenmee540 infZ joined the server

Well. The razor back can still be useless even with spies on the other team. Just because there is a game with snipers and spies doesn't mean their paths will ever meet. The enemy spy might not be able to even find the sniper and their back or the spy might not even be skilled enough to get anywhere close to the sniper. Also, sniper sometimes is always dead thanks to the enemy team's sniper.

"This has never happened ever." ...You ever hear of the concept of "Sixes," son?

@@LucanVaris in 6s you counter sniper with another sniper to be fair. You either play spy at the begining or you don't.

Isn’t their an achievement for that?

@@ytk2508yeah it’s called die another way I believe

2Fort snipers tend to do that more than others

​@@egg_crateI remember when I got that achievement I was brand new in tf2 and didnt know what a razorback was i thought it was a bug lmao but I still ended up killing the sniper with the help of my teammates pushing

Stab, coak, stab. They have no Jarate, so it’s comically easy.

Does that make it well designed or well balanced though? Sniper has that drawback for a reason. Heavy's whole playstyle is built around him being tanky and having high health. But he has the drawback of being slow and vulnerable to the insta kill classes. The Razorback is like the equivalent of giving Heavy a passive secondary to block headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental design problems.

@XXV you guys already "Soft" counter Spy, dont need even MORE

@@SquimJim the heavy also has a weapon that denies his slowness, which is the gloves of running urgently, but go on..

@@kekopara6822 which comes at the cost of his health, and therefore his survivability, and this downside is maintained for a period of time after the weapon is switched off of. Your point?

@@kekopara6822 Does Heavy have a passive secondary that makes him faster for the only drawback of losing his secondary? No. The steak has the melee restriction and the GRU lower your health. And even if he did, making Heavy faster does not only affect 1 class. The Razorback exists purely to screw over Spy and nothing else. Which is why I gave the example of a secondary to make Heavy immune to headshots. It would have the exact same fundamental flaws and no one would reasonably claim that would be good for the game.

Scarcely lethal? I- wha- hu- how?

@@evangonzalez7732 kil

Mvm?

@@evangonzalez7732 strange grade, means it has been used

@@hakanbrakankrakan ok. How can a BACKPACK. Be SCARCELY LETHAL?

You have a gun

@@che595 yep but gun kills only give 1 point .. backstabs are worth 2. And all that matters is getting big score, so they can use it as justification of contributing when they lose.. Its just people crying about getting counter played.. who don't understand the concept of counter play thus it's unfair, because expecting them to learn and grow is asking to much.. I mean they pretend the ambassador was not released in the same update, and exists solely so level the playing field against snipers using the razorback back. They don't loom at the big picture, just tunnel vision on the one item. Without considering interactions with other items.

Ltu?

@@FenexDragonis sniper mains when I call the class that 1 shots you from spawn overpowered

@@FenexDragonis sniper main be like

Not really, most sniper who got stabbed would probably switch to melee to kill the spy anyway

@@g2ltt733 and crit

You can actually get backstabbed with the razorback and not realize it if you are super concentrated on your sniping. But if you get locked in melee out of nowhere, that will be a braindead indicator that a Spy is behind you

You stab the sniper, he turns around and runs blindly at you, you trickstab him. That's typically how it goes. When stabbing crowds, stab the sniper last, unless your keeping a soldier alive for a sick surf.

@@g2ltt733 Melee kills Spy in 2 hits (sometimes). Quickscope does it in a single hit. Risk reward ratio makes it a worthy choice if you got the skill.

And yet this community when discussing about weapon balance often overlook how broken a weapon can be in the hands of a pro. So they make up these ridiculous weapons that just offer insane upsides while having minimal/irrelavant downsides. Valve surely don't know how to balance a lot of shit but I'm still glad they will never let the community jinx with weapon stats.

I mean....when balancing a game, do you balance based off the top of the skill ceiling, or the middle?

@@owenchafer1083in my opinion good balancing is somthing like the direct hit balanced for medium and pro players In the hands of a noob it’s a direct downgrade from sock because it does no damage if you miss In the hands of a decent player it’s situationally better but still usually worse than stock because now you are better in 1v1s and certain targets like sentry’s and heavy’s but you still have less crowd control and you will still miss sometimes And In the hands of a theoretically perfect player it’s incredibly good and better in some cases but still doesn’t overshadow stock because splash damage is such a useful tool for holding choke points and also fighting groups of players A side grade should reward pros who can master it with unique and powerful options but even at their best shouldn’t overshadow stock without having serious weak points to make up for it

​@@owenchafer1083You always balance based off of the top. When you don't, you get cases like the Pig from Dead by Daylight. Imagine a universe where people think Ganondorf needs a nerf.

funnily enough DDS is still meta in hl

God, don’t get me started with the old Darwin’s. I hate that I had to damage the Sniper prior to a Sniper duel because if I don’t, I’m basically headshot food, even if I hit the headshot first. It’s especially annoying against good Snipers. While I feel the Razorback fulfills this role for Spies, I feel it isn’t as bad as the old (or new) Darwin’s, since any of the Spy’s guns, especially the Revolver and Ambassador, can easily take care of a Sniper. Sniper can’t really defend himself too well in close quarters, even more so without a reliable secondary. However, I do agree that certain situations make shooting a Sniper dangerous or impossible, but at least there’s some counterplay. Overall, the Razorback needs a rework, since its purpose is too niche and promotes a “set and forget it” mentality against Spies.

I personally wish the DDS still had its anti-sniper purpose. Though instead of just straight up reducing bullet damage it should instead reduce all non-headshot bullet damage. Simply put, if it's a full charge body shot, it'll deal whatever a quick scope head shot used to do before, leaving you at I think 3 hp. Meanwhile a quick scope headshot should just kill you. Personally I think it's a lot better than the current anti-Scorch Shot DDS, because that's all it's good for, and it's definitely a nerf compared to pre Jungle Inferno

The Danger sheild is great for huntsmans

darwins rework: +25 maximum health literally all it should be

Less than 3%*

theres also the enforcer

Enforcer I pulled out of my ass:

bro said less than 30% more like less than 2%

Or any spy that can cloak and then suicide sap

Does the Razorback not trigger upon facestabs?

what registers as 'the back' in of itself is rather iffy. We're all familiar with the facestab and the nearly 180 degree range a backstab can trigger, but then you have weapons like the backburner or back scatter that seem to only deal the bonus damage if you hit your target at a straight 90 degree angle.

Fighting snipers in general is already a stupid concept. Because he is a class specialises in long-range combat where everyone else is balanced around mid-close range. In theory that alone is broken enough. A good sniper shreds the other team much more than an equally skilled soldier or heavy.

90% of the time it's a trickstab, not a facestab. Facestabs are not that common.

@@theotv5522 this is why sniper is a bitch to fight

That was the best part

I hate the Darwin Danger Shield and Jarate for this reason. Ok, I'm playing Pyro, I'm bad at long range. But then when I finally manage to get in close range of the sniper I can't even damage him cuz of the dumb shield. Or worse, he can put out my afterburn and instantly kill me with the Bushwacka. :(

@@FoulUnderworldCreature S H O T G U N

Nah they aren’t weak up close. The melee crits 90% of the time

@@FoulUnderworldCreature stop playing pyro. Pla

@@FoulUnderworldCreature If a Pyro manages to set a Sniper on fire he deserves to burn. Simple as that. Giving Sniper an advantage against a class that he already has a tremendous advantage against is just plain stupid. It's just a crutch now for lemmings who don't know how to dodge flares.

Personally I still think a razorback that blocked lethal damage would be fine. Even if it was for all classes (y'know for fairness) All you have to do is give it the proper downsides for such a powerful ability. My personal rework concept would be to block lethal damage on all classes. But you are always left with 1-hp, have a short speed boost and invulnerability, (basically bonk effect) and you aren't allowed to attack until the invulnerability wears off. Then maybe just lessen the effect of not only overheal, but healing in general. Similar to the back scratcher and I'd call it done. With this version, yeah you could survive lethal damage. But you'd then have to run into the arms of your teammates, cause otherwise you'd just get tracked down and killed anyways. And while it would be harder to kill you, your enemies can still get you off the frontlines for awhile which is at least a bittersweet victory. Thusly, the sniper would probably want to stay closer to his team than some other snipers. Which means that now the sniper himself has to play around the razorback too, instead of just spies.

@@rbstat6946 That invuln sounds annoying as fuck

I do not like the idea of any fix being "The spy can just stab the sniper anyway". That seems like a silly idea for a weapon since you could just give him a defense boost for all the difference it makes.

@@luckyducky7819 The whole point of the backstab (as mentioned in the video) is to pierce high health classes and resistances. The only weapon other than the razorback that can prevent backstabs is a stock ubercharge. And that needs at least a minute to build up. If the razorback is just a passive thing you don't have to build up. Then you better believe that a balanced version of it would be basically useless against a backstab.

​@@rbstat6946 All of the reasons to be against it comes down to individual opinions. Is the razorback bad because you don't use it like a traditional weapon? Maybe, but what if we compromised by making it a melee weapon? You can smack people with the razorback for good damage and range, but it'd be slower and a bit weaker than the stock kukri. The bonus is that, if its not equipped, it has the traditional razorback perks but will break when stabbed. I don't know if its a good idea, but I'd love to see it tried.

Don't forget having a certain type of internet connection.

Also AIM

@@skeletonking2501 you'd be surprised how redundant this factor is, like the guy above said, a faulty internet, paired with TF2's faulty optimization and lag settings, headshots aint hard to get.

@samsalaz You can always tell who's a salty Sniper main that gets a$$mad when someone points out that game design and balance are crucial, because they start raging. Cope harder lmao I 100% have better aim than you. You can main Sniper all you want, but all that means to me is "i CanT gEt kIlLs UnLesS I cAmP gIaNt SiGhtLiNeS aNd JusT kEeP mY cUrSOr aT hEaD-lEvEl" and 98% of the time, I'm right. God Sniper mains are so trash lmao, that's why you all install bots and aim scripts haha.

@@skeletonking2501 nah just click on people

I play a lot of spy aswell and if I had to count all the times I was screwd over by sniper that I had to ingore who would always stand just behind his team watching their back I'd look like I'm in mrbeasts video

The fists of steel exist and the brass beast gave you damage resistance when revved up... Until they decided that for whatever reason it should only apply when

You can’t butter knife a heavy to death a sniper on the other hand it’s possible

Heavy isn't a very counter-able class. He has an item for every counter which counters the counter.

@@doctorhealsgood5456 nah, let him be like the Sniper. Let heavy by immune to headshots while still using his main weapon. It's only fair.

he has the dragon minigun to counter spies

" invalidates your ability to kill snipers when using the YER " but ... why use the YER? This thing sucks. And if you don't want to use the Kunai out of fairness then use the Big Earner or the stock Knife. It's way better.

@@DommTom I stated "mostly only good for taking out engineer nests" im well aware that its overshadowed by most other knives. I'm saying that the razorback makes an already underused weapon even less enjoyable and less preferred

@@DommTom YER now sucks, so it should be fixed to at least not suck

Butter knife or le tranger him it’s what I do

@@kamikadze9482 really just needs the 33% faster cloak drain removed that’s really what kills it forces you to run the le tranger

They tried once. And it was given to Sniper too...

The old Danger Shield... Wow

I don't see your point? So what sniper counters spy who cares (other than spy mains stay mad you ambi worshipping deadringer kunai using assholes)

@@RandomFurry07 what about the battalions backup (I don’t know if I wrote that right

@@SiMoonSte hey at least it takes time, ammo, and health to build that immunity

I thought that was pre nerf phlog?

​@carlosnathanieljannjusonal4826 pre nerf phlog was not a crutch. It was just ridiculous. It really doesn't help in what pyro usually does.

Noooooo dead ringer is the crutch example.

Yeah sadly just shoot him doesn't work when they intentionally break the one weapon meant to do just that.

That's sort of the issue with Sniper in general. Good Snipers are completely impossible to kill and can shut down an entire map. It doesn't matter how much you sporadically spazz around as Scout. That Sniper will get you if you are in his sightlines. If you come around the corner as medic he will instantly delete you with a quick scope. People like to say the Sydney Sleeper sucks but it really doesn't. When fully charged it does 150 damage on body shot just like any rifle. Pair that with the fast charge and you have yourself a spammable Medic killer that requires absolutely no skill whatsoever to use. They never should have added Sniper to TF2. He does not belong. Everything else about the game is too fundamentally built around close combat with things like limited weapon reach and damage falloff. The damage is done now though and sadly removing classes is out of the question, as much as I honestly would not complain. All we can do is hope Valve gets off their asses and does that Heavy update like they said they would after Jungle Inferno. I hear it was supposed to come with Sniper nerfs.

@@igetboredproductions No sniper on earth is that good without hacks.

@@vyor8837 we must have completely different tf2 experiences. I often face against a sniper (or snipers) who will shut the entire server down. even if the sniper is cheating, its unlikely that they will be kicked if its subtle enough.

@@CreeperthanPasta cheaters usually get kicked pretty fast in my experience.

yeah but snipers are not at the front lines where the other 8 classes hes meant to avoid getting too close to are, yeah sniper v sniper fights give you a disadvantage if the other is overhealed but a sniper v sniper duel mostly based on skill hes over heal clocks in at 185 but that number is decreasing by the second most of the time you'll stay scoped in long enough to kill them in one headshot anyway the razorback handicaps the spy hes not even that good of a counter his class is literally Made to counter sniper and IF hes using the ambassador it also handicaps his revolver dps other then his headshots the razor back is made to screw over the other class made to counter him which makes it unfair for the spy

The check for being able to backstab uses the collision hull rather than the hitbox that’s used for hitscan. It would likely require splitting all the classes hitboxes in two or they could use a check for what face the hitscan ray went through. Wouldn’t be as simple as reusing code.

​@@zo0ot404 That's true, I didn't consider that. Well either way, aside from the fact that TF2 is made out of spaghetti code that's hard to work with, it shouldn't be _all too hard_ to add. Maybe. Hopefully.

"the bot shield" perfect for bots to reduce all incoming damage

@@runius0 dear god

Not the spy but it can use back scatter thing

Sniper isn't op, his downside is his lack of mobility and awareness. Not JUST awareness. And your reasons completely contradict eachother, you can't equip the Jarate DDS and Razorback all at the same time. So just switch class or weapon depending on what he's wearing. Not detecting spies "skill" is irrelevant due to the invis watch not to mention the spy can just shoot the sniper, DDS only really counters the flareguns, not so much the flamethrowers. if a Pyro close to you, then it doesn't matter you have the DDS equipped, you are dead anyway. and Scouts outrun melee range, so not sure how a Jarate Bushwacka counters Scout.

@@MrTriple3D sniper player spotted

@@MrTriple3D The lack of mobility is only a weakness if you are playing competitive 6's otherwise it's not an issue at all. Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory. Spy's have to uncloak and make a loud sound when doing so plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank. DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit. And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance. Your entire comment is null which is no surprise from somebody trying to defend sniper as being a balanced class.

@@aganaom1712 not argument presented

@@bigblue344 the lack of mobility is a weakness all across the board. a sniper is never going to be able to escape 2 competent scouts/soldiers/demos. "Also his argument is based on the versatility of what kind of hard counters you can have at your disposal in a loadout so its not contradictory." none of them are "hard counters" at all. they're counters but not hard counters. of course spies make noise. don't be surprised when you get instakilled for uncloaking behind somebody. "plus you have to be aware anyway of a scout or a random demoknight going on your flank." is redudant, "DDS is a good escape plan to escape from pyro's unless you want to try your luck with a melee crit." is completely dependant on your positioning. you're not gonna escape a pyro if you're not near spawn with the DDS. "And if you are unsure how jarate and bushwake counters scouts then you either must play competitive TF2 at the highest levels or you have no idea about game balance." ok so either i'm a god or i'm trash. how does that make sense? i can't explain to you why i believe sniper isn't op but i have found a video that describes what i think pretty well. watch jbirds "is sniper op" video

How about giving spy a gun that gives him immunity to fire based weapons?

​@@Qualicabyss Spycicle Not a gun but

@@badopinionssquid1735 I mean complete passive immunity, not you can maybe escape once

@@Qualicabyss 30 seconds is a long time to recharge And you could argue they can just run back to spawn But that accomplishes the same effect as outright killing them so

​@@badopinionssquid1735 well it's pretty balanced and some people even say it's underpowered because 1 flame particle completely deletes it

Then it's not... a shield on your back what the fuck is the point of it?

@@Dovah_Slayer Since you clearly can't think, I'll do it for you: If a Sniper gets backstabbed (and it isn't the YER, I'll get to it), then the Spy will be revealed _and_ coated in mini-crit juice that shows exactly where he is. Instead of helping the Sniper survive (which, as discussed in the video you clearly didn't watch, is a terrible idea), it helps his team avenge his death. If the Spy is using the YER, then... "hey Sniper, why are you suddenly coated in Jarate? You didn't throw it, since you have the thing that coats the Spy in jarate upon backstab... eh, I'll go with a random Sydney Sleeper shot at close range, even though you don't necessarily have it equipped."

@btf_flotsam478 YOU can't think, apparently debuffs (jarate milk bleed etc) are SEVERELY NERFED when spy cloaks making this theoretical razorback completely useless so long as the spy has ANY GAME SENSE AT ALL; thats as dumb as the "lock into melee" idea someone else has you wanna know how to beat the razor back just remember SPY HAS A GUN. Everyone literally bitches about a weapon that can be bypassed by just having basic fucking game sense the razor back literally doesn't have to be changed at all. Spy mains just need to actually use their fucking arsenal appropriately. Hell spy mains routinely use a gun that is super effective at close range so long as you can hit heads you literally hard counter Sniper yet you want to focus on the one weapon that gives the sniper a barely tangible advantage (that changing it to LITERALLY ANYTHING else would be actually useless)

@@Dovah_Slayer Retards like you seem to forget that being able to partially negate something by using up a valuable resource doesn't make it completely useless.

I mean Jarate has its own separate problems. They're comparable in the basic sense that they're both secondaries for the same class but beyond that they're totally different. And even then I'd still always take an overpowered weapon with easily adjusted stats over a conceptually flawed mess like the Razorback.

Oh god. It's just SO extra to put your back to a Spy so his butterknife becomes a big stun. But what's equally funny is when you use the Amby/Diamondback to crit them, and then butterknife them when they turn around on you. It's a dumb weapon, but you could argue that the Pomson and Bison are dumb weapons as they border Friendly levels of harmful.

That’s the counter to my counter of just butter knifing razorback snipers to death hit em with the London welcome

No way, real Dr Bright?

Lets say it aint gonna do a lot against my force a nature with crit a cola

Kunai spies will never recover from this. Good.

@@NotMirrorspeople use kunai outside of x10?

@@ciphergacha9100 yeah, it's like, the most common knife to see a Hale's Own of in casuals

I would just say reduced damage from behind is a fair enough balance just because you are giving up useful and defensive secondary's.

@@bigblue344 A.K.A. Jarate

@@bigblue344 You can still just shoot people in the head, aim and shoot. The same thing everything else does.

That would be beautiful. I would love that so much. That would make playing spy that much more interesting. How would you treat the Amby in this case? Just have it remain a normal full crit?

Toxic against spys? Does a sniper having a razerback prevent you from playing spy at all? And minicrits on ALL revolver headshots? You crazy? I can see that for the enforcer but not for everyone when the diamond back exists.

@@10cheesburgers amby would stay full crit but the cut off distance would be further away

@@aganaom1712 I agree, the damage fall off nerf would be a-ok if headashotting was good atleast at mid-range

Right, removing the stun would actually force the sniper to play defensively in a situation that he really should be losing in anyways.

About someone "finally" talking about it: FishStickOnAStick has "Sniper's Backpack Bonanza", a great video on all of Sniper's backpacks, proposing changes for them as well. Now, this video is good as well.

I fairly recently back stabbed a razorback sniper (I wasn't paying attention and didn't even notice he was wearing it) when my stab didn't do anything I just assumed I missed and stabbed him again, he had really bad tunnel vision due to my team doing a push on payload.

As WitheRosE said, Fish Stick on a Stick did talk about this a while back on his channel, although that was focused on all backpacks and not just the Razorback. Although he did say that even as a Sniper main, the Razorback and Danger Shield are complete clusterf%cks that are just designed to say "screw you" to one class. (Spies and Pyros) He stated that it wasn't enough effort to shut down Pyro and Spy players and that they should definitely be reworked.

Cringe

@@Josh-jw3go well screw you cause you’d be happy if your playing spy and you got an easy stab on me. I wasn’t trying to be toxic in the slightest but I guess a lot of people are just love being jerks don’t they,

duh, that's the point of the video

Passive weapons with passive effects are totally fine. The Booties, for example do change how Demo plays a lot. The Razorback doesn't though.

.... Get-out-of-jail free cards are not exactly good game design a lot of the time, unless the game is intended to be played with them from the start

@@trollar8810 thats the game design of the schoolyard. Kid 1: my attack is unavoidable Kid 2: yeah, but my shield reflects back the attack and mess you up Kid 3: that is cheatin Kid 4: the attack is cheating *all the loud kids voice turns into one big mess of a noise

@@SquimJim he said it makes the sniper more passive and tunnel focused, which is technically a change of playstyle, not as fundemental because unlike Demo, Sniper relies almost only on his primary, but still a change, you could play just like always only if you never used jarate or the SMG in the first place, in reality it can happen to use jarate to to help your team or to use SMG to deal damage if your confident with your sniper aim at close range I'm not a Razorback fan, but i definetly can understand its utility and existance, it's for people that don't want to focus on spies, they don't want to out scope just because they worry a spy is right behind them, and so they as far as to sacrifice their secondary slot Still your change is a solution which doesn't complete change the weapon and i like it, because all razorback snipers want is to not die istantly from behind right when they are zoomed in

@@bruschetta7711 I dont think people just not wanting to have to worry about Spies is a good justification for it existing as is. No one wants to be backstabbed. And like I said Sniper is the absolute last class that should ever have class counter counters because of the relatively limited way Snipers can be fought. It's just an inherently bad design. Its like giving Heavy something that prevents headshots. Yeah it would help him deal with one of his counters but why should he have that?

Wdym "force spies to think" it's pulling out your revolver and shooting the guy 3 times before he dies, anyone who's played Spy for over 10 hours would've figured that out by now. Not saying I disagree that weapons which force classes to switch things up are a bad idea, but the Razorback just fails in that concept entirely, it's only ever been either a boring obstacle that does nothing but make a Sniper's death more tedious or a massive annoyance to spies who just want to use the basic mechanic of their class and sometimes HAVE to do so if they want ensure they'll get that Sniper pick. Compare that to Jarate which is much better at forcing Spies to think since it punishes them for getting caught out and discourages them from making risky decloaks right next to a sniper as they can't just cloak away anymore if the Sniper hears them and turns around. Let's make another comparison of the point I'm getting across. Rescue Ranger and the Short Circuit. Rescue Ranger can be an actually interesting challenge for Soldiers and Demos as it opens up more opportunities for every class involved, the Engineer can now heal his buildings without the risk of being shot himself, but it isn't as strong as hitting it 2 times with your wrench and the primary weapon itself sucks at defending yourself when your sentry goes down. Alternatively, you can grab your sentry from far away and save it from spam or a sticky trap that's about to detonate, but at the cost of half your metal and being more susceptible to direct attacks while carrying your buildings. This is a good example of a weapon that gives you more options to deal with your class counters instead of just taking away options from Soldier and Demo themselves, and an interaction that at least I find interesting. Compare that to the Short Circuit, which is the exact opposite of my previous sentence. It does nothing but delete Soldier and Demo's main sources of damage, it's only major downside is nullified by having a Dispenser next to you, it may or may not be fun for the Engineer but definitely isn't fun for the Soldier or Demo, and does nothing but shut down the mechanics of another class. Razorback is no different from the latter, it's only useful for countering a single class, it's not fun for either class, and at best, still ruins class interactions.

Does it? A better description would be that it allows Snipers to NOT think. There is nothing interesting about the Razorback. It requires 0 input from the class using it and simply acts as an obstacle to the class who is meant to have an advantage in that situation. Its effectively a crutch that prevents the Sniper from properly learning the matchup. Using Engi as an example, the Razorback is like the equivalent to if Scout got a passive secondary that let him bypass Sentry damage. Does that force Engineer to think? Or is it a lazy gimmick that lets Scout handicap his biggest counter?

@@SquimJim Pretty sure that Scout's secondary you're speaking of is the Bonk Atomic Punch, but at least this one stops you from inflicting damage on players and buildings

@Obunga Bonk isn't passive. And yeah it prevents you from attacking at all.

it should not be the job of the spy to change their entire playstyle to check the class they're DESIGNED TO COUNTER, just because the Sniper equipped a shield that does nothing else. It's a crutch weapon for worse snipers or a broken weapon for good snipers playing against competent spies. You said you were an engineer main. Alright then - do you think it would be balanced if you had a weapon that just auto deleted explosive projectiles if they entered within a radius of your sentry? I'm not talking the Short Circuit - it costs metal and has to be aimed, meaning there is interaction. I'm saying: you equip a secondary, and now any and all projectiles flying at your sentry just vanish in a puff of smoke. Would that be fair? That the soldier and demo's core design to counter Engineer just gets completely negated? It's just inherently bad game design.

Thats what I'm doing lol

You get kidnapped and get shot in the back of the head after being tortured with car bateries

It's simple. You die

You die instantly. Instantly!

@@SquimJim Get rekt Squim I said it first

Im more afraid of jarate snipers than razorback snipers tbh

Turning the Razorback into the Rumblepack

The spycicle doesn’t let you use weapons when it’s melted? Coulda sworn you can use your gun if it is.

@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 it gets rid of the gun no idea what this guy is on about

@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 Good luck using your primary agaisnt every single other class that outguns you and outpowers you while being a class thats based around precise pick decision making and stealth to outset that inbalance

@@gipsydangeramericasmonster9632 you sacrifice you main weapon to escape. Imagine if you still coild backstab while being fire immune

@@isaac922 because people always do that when something grants a speed boost. It doesn't even metter because you will be escaping🤨

Delete his comment! Delete his comment!!

sausage

@@SquimJim Why is your name Squim

Lstranger is decent at killing the sniper if you shove it up the sniper’s ass and don’t miss 3 shots in a row

Yeah, still a few problems, but a lot better. Why doesn’t the car battery do anything but just FX?

As somewhat of a spy main, this is actually not true. I’ve found that the unpredictable behavior of new players make it extremely risky to attempt a backstab on them, since a failure almost certainly means death if they’re around their team. Besides this, new players are low-value targets compared to more skilled players, since skilled players are an actual threat to your team. Newer players are not, so it’s more risk for less reward. The only exception is heavy, since newer players can have a large impact and are still generally easy to backstab.

Its exactly like I said in the video: If the Razorback exists only to counter 1 class and doesn't even do a good job at that that's MORE of a reason as to why it's a conceptually horrible weapon. How good the Razorback is or isn't is not that important and wasn't what this video was about.

vac medic pocketing anyone is annoying

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 The Vac is somehow simultaneously a weapon I hate when other people are being pocketed by it and when I am getting pocketed by it. Fighting a Vac pocket is a pain in the ass unless you can get your team to coordinate (a dream in random casual/pub matches) and at the same time I’d rather have the large burst of power that the Uber, Kritz, or even Quick Fix provides as opposed to getting a bullet resistance bubble against every Scout I encounter.

The thing about the deadringer is that 99% of spies don’t use it properly, and even for those that do, it cripples spy’s positioning capability in exchange for extra survivability. Right now I consider it pretty underpowered, since the big earner and the stock watch basically gives you the same effect without sacrificing your positioning capabilities

@@bruhbruh-us6gl Fair but I will always hate the dead ringer because I hate the core concept of it. When I kill something it should stay dead.

@@bigblue344 except you don't kill the spy,you just damage him

eww no. demoknight already gets fucked by enough classes. dont add sniper to that.

Stun mechanics in movement shooters is fun and fair, and everyone loves it so much

It's the stun that gets you killed. Any good sniper will just spin around and insta-headshot you, even at point blank range. Just retire the fucking thing already. It was broken from day one.

@@mjsugod1385 I meant stun as in they can't swing, just like it does with the spy and the razorback now

sniper is op not because of the razor back, but because humans have had 16 years perfecting their tf2 headshots

TBH you can pick razorback snipers off using the ambassador pretty easily

I really dislike this premise of making every class equal in power to each other, because that is not what TF2 is about. Teams in-game are successful when they have good team balance, not because every class in the game is perfectly balanced. Spys serve the purpose of taking out distracted enemies and saving teammates the trouble of dealing with tanky enemies. While you might think that spys are designed to take care of snipers and should be able to serve that role perfectly, they are not. An item that can semi-counter a single attack from an occasional threat is not something that needs to be removed from the game. As it stands, the razorback is perfectly balanced, even if it's a downgrade from it's standard alternative.

@@AeyakS yeah I hear you when you say that this is a TEAM game, but honestly it seems as if the game has changed into this odd, pool of 1v1’s as everyone cries over the kunai and Vaccinator due to requiring teamwork to counter. Almost as if Team Fortress 2 is no longer a team based game somehow? Idk I just think tf2 isn’t a team game anymore based of of people’s reactions to being forced to use teamwork to counter the kunai.

@@AeyakS An item specifically designed the nullify the main source of damage from another class is not a good design concept at all. That would be like giving Sniper an item specifically designed to make him immune to fire which is Pyro's main source of dealing damage, oh wait............

darwins was perfect on launch, idk why they made it counter better snipers, and when that proved to be a moronic idea, made it counter basically just the scorch shot valve just cant balance snipers weapons i guess

Then it's not a shield on your back it's a fucking buzzer and the design makes no sense I think you are just a shitty spy that Hates the razor back because you can't counter it

Indeed

Indeed

I watched it 2 days before!

I sadly only got 18 minutes late

No that's dumb

It does it's just not worth mentioning!

@@SquimJim Really? well that's a bit weird.

@@SquimJim Use it with the Bushwhacka and come back to this comment

@Anthony Carson I have plenty of times. Jarate is just better. The SMG is better on its own too.

Why should he be able to just ignore Spies? For convenience? Everyone should always be on the lookout for Spies. What makes Sniper special here? Its like giving Heavy a passive secondary to block headshots because he doesn't want to have to focus on avoiding a Sniper. It would have literally the exact same fundamental flaws as the Razorback.

@@SquimJim Sniper shouldn’t be able to ignore spies and everyone should be checking for spies. But not everyone does plays their role right, so here comes the Razorback to help Snipers and give them at least the ability to breathe relief from a single backstab. Sniper often is alone or further from the rest of the team. It shouldn’t have a recharge on it and should be a one time per life use. But if the Razorback never existed you would have the original Razor ‘back against the wall’ method.

@@rathead1000 Snipers having to adapt to Spies is 100% preferable than giving them a way to just ignore backstabs. Backstabs having 180 degree radius means youre not always safe just putting your back to the wall anyway. And that's still limiting what the Sniper can do or where he can go because he's afraid of Spies. Which is a good thing. He's supposed to be afraid of Spies. I mean imagine that dynamic with any other 2 classes. Like I said a Heavy shouldn't be able to make himself immune to headshots just because he doesn't feel like dealing with Snipers. But the Razorback does the exact same thing for the Sniper-Spy dynamic.

@@rathead1000 Weapons existing with the sole purpose of giving the class a break from their counter is extremely stupid, because it only rewards a bad playstyle from the sniper while also punishing the spy for doing what he is supposed to. It's similar to the Jarate + Bushwaka combo where you're being given a get out of jail free card on a situation where you deserve and are supposed to die.

@@rathead1000 so basically it's too hard to check for spies, so i shouldn't have to? That's the argument here. Getting backstabbed as a sniper isn't any more annoying than any other class. If anything being so far from the fight takes the excuse away from the sniper that he doesn't have time to spy check. He has the luxury of not being gunned down at the front lines, so he should have MORE time for making sure the areas safe.

I like your idea of turning Sniper into the Australian equivalent of Captain America

Was it difficult? The Sandmans ball is the fastest projectile in the game. It was kinda infamously easy to hit.

but what defines OP I say OP means "A weapon or mechanic that is powerful yet easy to use effectively"

+25% bullet vurnerability. “Oh, but the ambassador could then ONE SHOT the sniper!” Yes that’s how counters work. Spy is meant to counter sniper.

Sniper has 5 crutches that I can name off the top of my head so no wonder snipers love crutches so much

Snipers often hang out near Sentries. Why wouldn't they? Both Enginer and Sniper tend to play behind the rest of the team and the Sentry protects the Sniper. Even at point blank, the revolver takes a minimum of 1.5s to kill a Sniper. That is a lot of time to react. You can't balance a weapon or a game off the worst players. Even if hypothetically it was always easy for Spy to kill a Razorback Sniper, would that make the Razorback a well designed weapon?