The Elephant in the Room [3]: the many holes in the Abraha story! 

Mel: u removed ur ❤️ . I feel so left out. 😞😜

Selam. So wie du hier schreibst nehme ich an dass du eine ablehnende Haltung Islam gegenüber hast. Außerdem zeigt die Sprache die du verwendest nicht auf die Geschichte selbst sondern auf den Zustand deines Charakters hin. Meine Einschätzung ist dass deine Fähigkeiten zu reflektieren durch den Zustand deines Herzens getrübt ist. Ich empfehle dir dich für 40 Tage in die Einsamkeit zurückzuziehen um deinen eigenen inneren Geschichten zu begegnen die du dir selbst erzählst. Ich wünsche dir mehr Licht in deinem Herzen.

Anytime u have an a rab there is always fiction.

I think it was qadissiyya, it's almost certain in light of surah 106. Sassanids used Indian elephants especially in mesopotamia due to its water ways and it's proximity to the capital Ctesiphon. They is Indian documents which testified to the breeding of elephants for the kosrow. That means Muhammad is still alive 636. Could indicate the memory of Muhammad is a composite of an early hanif Preacher and the caliph Umar.

@@CtrAltawesome Indian documents? I am super eager to read them. Could you kindly point in the direction where to find them? Are these more than a 1,000 years old? What language are they written in?

@@vicmath1005 in compilation mostly Pahlavi, as this language was used in Sassanid Persia and regions it exercises influence, documents such as Matigan-i Hazar Datistan details there use. It's likely the details of the elephants was originally written in kharosthi due to the delicacies in translation. At least Pahlavi scholars are of that opinion.

@@CtrAltawesome Thank you

No, that's absolutely incorrect. Akkadian attests piru, and pilu. Prior to Akkadian, Summarian had an unrelated word. The Akkadian word is almost certainly borrowed from an Indian language. Aramaic and Hebrew have the word pil פיל, from Akkadian. Greek derives the word from an Anatolian language possibly Hittite. There is enough direct and indirect evidence to suggest the word was borrowed from an early source on the Indian subcontinent (where elephants are native) by geographically western civilizations, and that Mesopotamian civilization acquired it prior to the Aegeans at least 700 years prior, possibly more.

The name Yunus is thought to be actually a borrowing from Greek though

@@myspleenisbursting4825 Yes, Hebrew Jonah יונה -> Greek Iōnas Ἰωνᾶς -> Arabic yūnus يونس

@@myspleenisbursting4825It is, but the Greek is borrowing from the Galilean Aramaic, which ultimately comes from the Hebrew. Yahuḥanan / Yehoḥanan (יהוחנן) -> Yoḥanan (יוחנן) -> Yohannēs (Ἰωἁννης) -> Yowannis (Ιωαννης) -> Yūnus (يونس) You can confirm it had to have passed through Greek because of the final s. If Arabs had gotten the name John directly from Hebrew or Aramaic they would have made it Yūna, Yūnan, or Yūnun.

@@jeremias-serus very interesting. Ilyas too right?

Same trope though - the Orphaned Sage, who will face many hardships due to the loss of his mother.

Where in Sumer?

@@ftk-forthekingdomministrie7439 iraq

Mansu Musa lived about 1300 ad, and should not be connected by anybody to this elephant tale. He is reputed to have been lavish with spending along his journey to mecca. (It was common for wealthy travelers to give alms and gifts as they traveled.). Gold doesn’t stay in one place, it’s the primary currency of trade for expensive things.

No he pulled the article I think last year as it now appears in a published book called evolution of the early Qur'an itw chapter 1 with a few additions. So it's behind a paywall. I have the article somewhere in my pc but I thought it's a very strained interpretation personally.

I'd be interested in the article.

They told stories without their ending because the stories were already known, and the point was to extract a meaning from part of the story. Then the stories were forgotten and the meaning became reinterpretted in terms of new stories forged much later to explain the now confusing partial stories.

💯

@@abj136 A simple example of why the Qur’an did not specify who the son was whom Abraham intended to offer as a sacrifice to God, and why did the Islamic dispute over this point arise? Was it Ishmael or Isaac? This is an intentional issue, not a random one. On the other hand, we see the full details in stories such as the story of Hud and the story of Salih in the Qur’an, as these two people, whom the Qur’an considers to be prophets, do not have followers who pose a threat to the spread of Islam. Therefore, we see that their stories came complete and clear, and there were no notable differences among the interpreters about them. This is, in brief, the concept of taqiyya from the practical point of view. It is a period of appeasement with the intention of gradually imposing colonialism when the time comes. All of these are part of the traditional foundations of Islamic politics.

Doesn't matter if 7th century Jews were familiar with Maccabees. Their Christian neighbors certainly knew the story. Christians far outnumbered Jews at this time.

@@mysotiras21 Definitely not in the hijaz.

@@Number1MisinformationHater , but this event did NOT take place in the Hijaz. Mecca DID NOT EXIST during the 6th century AD. The story was BORROWED from Maccabees, then relocated to MYTHICAL Mecca.

@@mysotiras21 Mecca is mentioned more than once in the Qur’an and you’re ignoring the fact that over half of the verses in surah 105 don’t match up with the story in Maccabees.

@@Number1MisinformationHater , Mecca is NEVER mentioned by name in the Arabic Qur'ans. The closest you get is "makkah" in surah 48:24. Your own scholars say this word applies ONLY to the area around the Kaaba, NOT to the city that now has a similar name. There is also "bakkah", plus "the mother of cities". ZERO reason to assume either of these are the Mecca of later Islam.

To bathe, sea water is fine I’d guess. To keep the elephant drinking enough, there would need to be too much water carried on this journey. In any event, there’s no reason to even follow this speculation when the known history fits Q105 better than the legend invented much later.

To be clear, Genesis has always told the story of Abraham, long before Islam arose. He traveled from Iraq to Palestine and Egypt, but never Saudi Arabia. He did go to “Macca”, but it was called Salem and Moriah before it was also called Mecca, long before the new site in Saudi Arabia was invented to change the place of pilgrimage.