The Empire Strikes Back: Commodore 64 vs Commodore Plus/4 real Hardware Showdown C64 Plus4 

Well said. The community has very talented people from all over the world, mostly Hungary.

i suspect it was written on the Plus 4 then ported to the C64 hence why so similar

@@speedbird737 no, it released on c64 first

Thank you for the good words. Yes the communities are quite active and they amaze us regularly..:)

Thank you for the comment! Yes the programmers did miracles on the Plus/4. Very talented

Yeah the plus/4 is so underrated. It's actually very capable. I have it's sister machine the c16. Both are capable of way more than anyone realised.

Thank you for the good words, my friend! I took much more time than usual making this video, since i am starting to enjoy the creating process more than caring about views and subs. Cutting the 3rd part together was tedious, but i am very happy with the result. Looking forward to your the C64 and MSX comparison!

That is something needed in the community, and coming from you I know they are going to be some amazing videos.

Thank you for yout nice comment :)

Thank you for the comment. I am happy you liked it :)

I am guessing this is Plus/4 only and wouldn't run on a C16

@@PhillipHomerIt runs on my C16! Granted I have 64KB of RAM...

I can relate to that :)

@@Sayakas_Digital_Attic Hey Sayaka, thank you for watching and the good words. I am awaiting your next video :)

I guess the plus4 screen is loaded compressed into the memory and its uncompressed and then shown...on the c64 i guess its just a showeffect. Usually you get the effect if you load the data from disk directly to screen memory.. but cosudering the talents of both teams..i gues they did it on purpose...

@@GeorgesChannel on c64 it is a loader screen. When you see that drawing building up line-by-line, it means that the screen and the game is loading intoto the memory from disk right before your eyes. The speed of the screen appearance is the speed of the data loading into the memory. On Plus/4 the image is already avaklable in the memory as a compressed data and it requires no time to be shown.

Thank you for the good words! I am glad you like it...

That would be an interesting challenge!

Thank you for the nice words! Yes show your Plus/4 on your channel!

Thank you for the good words :) I am happy you like it :)

Thats the challenge :) I think they did a fantastic job despite the limitations..

The plus/4 has more colours/shades available than the 64.

Last years some geniuses made some really good games for the plus /4

Would be cool to see c128 or Amiga version.

@@GeorgesChannel A C128 VDC Version for C128 with 64kb video ram

Yes, its indeed impressive! Thank you for your comment!

Its due to the talent of the coders who know the platform very well

Actually the plus/4 was meant to be a machine for small businesses.Thanks for sharing your story!

Hey George! Thanks for the good words. You really motivated me to go on with the channel. :) Thanks for the offer with the music, i will come back to it...

They used slightly more colors in the title screen and here and there. Plus4emu has a picture converter included. I used it in this video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jJZfZ476C2w.html

@GeorgesChannel Thank you. I'll have to find that software. I used to use the C64 alot. But with VICE I'm finally able to play around with the plus 4.

Use the Yape emulator instead, which is dedicated to the plus/4 and not so overloaded

@@GeorgesChannel Thank you. I'll look that up.

Thanks for the good words! Yes the C64 has the edge..but the plus/4 version is amazing too.

@GeorgesChannel forsure, it's nice to see games being made for it ..

Indeed. At the plus/4 site you will read more about how the game was made

@@GeorgesChannel Where can I find this info?

@@system64738 Read the posts of TCFS: plus4world.powweb.com/forum/47743

Thank you for your analysis. The C64 sounds majestic, but is indeed slower. The gameplay was more responsive on the C64, but that could be misleading, because i uses an Joystick on the Plus/4 and a Joypad on the C64. The Plus/4 misses the soundeffect when a AT-AT-ST is exploding. The Plus/4 has a much smaller border than the C64, so the visible window is bigger. The colors on the C64 are brighter (same settings, same monitor). As you said. Both great games!

Yes, the hills are bigger, because on c64 there are more characters available for the hills. On Plus/4 we need to preserve some characters for software sprites and those characters are missing from the hill gfx. This is why I simplified the hills at the end. The cost of the software sprites is always the reduced number of available chracters in the charset.

@@tcfsi don’t know the plus 4 hardware. Does it have hardware scrolling or not? If not I guess having smaller mountains etc would mean less data to shift for the CPU So that is also a benefit for smaller mountains?

@@tcfsdisregard the other message I read the tech breakdown. So if I got it correct the scrolling is hardware. With splits where it won’t affect the software sprites and then with smaller sprites you give the illusion that the AT is a software sprites but it’s just scrolling background. And then the rest of the moving sprite stuff is real-time data shifted and combining of data. = less moving. Less overlap = higher frame rate and vice versa right?

@@litjellyfish The hardware is capable of hardware scrolling. But creating raster-interrupted regions of screen using different hardware shift horizontally will break the software sprite crossing between those regions. The benefit of smaller mountains to provide enough characters can be used for software sprites.

Actually the plus/4 was designed originally to be only a c116 (ZX Spectrum competitor) for 49$. After Jack left, they tried to sell it as productivity machine for small business in form off the plus/4. The comparison is unfair in many ways, but its amazing how they pulled this off.

Thank you for the comment. The homebrew-scene made a pcb for the Plus/4 where you can plug in a SID Chip. Also some games were made for it.

@@GeorgesChannel Yes there were some amazing scene demos that used the hardware. Would love to get one, but where?

@@Nianfur I put the links in the description!

Plus4 has a slower memory clock to stretch the image and get rid of most of the borders. Apparently, though the CPU could run at the full 1.8 MHz of the memory. I understood that phase1 keeps the CPU of the bus. How short can this phase be? Does it not do something internally? Could the CPU have run at 1.8 MHz all the time, but commodore did not want to cannibalise the C64? Instead of bad lines, TED could have loaded stuff inside the borders. More colors per char.

Yes amazing stuff!

The programming gurus did miracles...the hardware of the C64 is superior though..

Thank you for the comment!

Not quite, based on what I've read. The TED chipset was designed originally as the basis of a low-cost platform, this is true. But the Plus/4 was intended to be introduced as a more business-oriented home machine before Tramiel left. The man was never particularly bothered about what the product lines could do as long as he could stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap. Yes, the TED chip lacked hardware sprites and the audio capabilities were inferior to those of SID on the C64, but in a machine intended for small business use, that's not a big deal (plus the CPU was clocked quite a bit faster and the overall colour palette was much larger). Unfortunately for CBM the advent of cheaper MS-DOS PC compatibles in the mid-80s pretty much killed the idea stone dead, and they had their first major flop.

@@joehoy9242 The Commodore 116 was originaly intended as as low cost competitor to the speccy for $49. Wehn Jack left, they marketed it at the end as a business -machine the Plus/4.

@@GeorgesChannel Jack quit in January 1984 and the Plus/4 was introduced in June that same year. I don't know for certain, but I don't think there was enough intervening time to change strategy. That said, a year later CBM would buy Amiga from under Tramiel's nose and release their machine shortly afterwards, so things were moving pretty quickly back then!

@@joehoy9242 You might be right. I just recall some of Bil Herds stories about the plus/4. Its for sure they headed for the 116 in the first draft, thats why we have the mini-DIN ports for the Datasette and Joysticks because there were no room. Maybe they expanded the ideo to business machines..while Jack was still there..

You can be lucky and find an unboxed one with beige diskdrive for 100 EUR. But if you want a prestine ones(they usually yellow at the keys) in a box the go around 300 EUR maybe you can get a floppy with it. If you want a 1551 Floppy drive (black floppy drive) they go high >300 EUR. You have set yourself a limit what you want to give out and have patience to find one. Prices generally went high nowadays.... If you want to save money go for C16 + 64kb modification.

@@GeorgesChannel So a prestine one with green floppy drive can be around 500 total?

@@dmitrys5661 I have seen from 100 EUR- to unlimited... you have to be patient and set yourself a limit. The 1551 floppies are expensivea and unreliable. I personally use an SD2IEC drive..

@@GeorgesChannel Ty for your info 👍

What a RSI flashback?

Repetitive strain injury :D @@GeorgesChannel

@@SelfIndulgentGamer Not the best joystick, i agree:)

Thank you for the ki nd words..i designed it myself :)

Thanks for the good words :) Just download the version you like at the links in the description.

@@GeorgesChannel Thanks mate 👍🏻

Thank you for the comment :)

Thank you for your time. The side by side comparison was well executed.

@@S1eeperServ1ce Thanks again! I really tried to make it as good as possible, because the games really deserve it. I also did another side by side of "Stunt Car Racer", which i personally also like.

Yes they did a great job

Yeah, back in the day we commodore plus/4 users wished that our games would look like a NES or Sega game :)

The most would :)

This "failed" computers have a special meaning to us, beacuse they were out first computer ever. We always looked with jealous to the C64 and other systems, because of their superior games. So the teams did really a fantastic job!

♥️

Any suggestion how i can remove the Moire-effect?

@@GeorgesChannel I'm no expert. Perhaps others can chime in. Sometimes it is possible to input the video out to a video in on your PC/Laptop. Failing that i think if the camera was pointed more directly at the screen you could perhaps minimize it. Then it is difficult for you to see the screen also.

I could do that, but its by intention to record this angle. Fimling CRT is super hard..its the best i could do so far :)

@@GeorgesChannel And it's appreciated. Thanks George.

@@robertdewar1752 Thank you for your feedback. There is always room for improvements

Thank you for the comment! I have to admit, the sound of the SID-schip is far superior...

@@GeorgesChannel Yeah, the PLUS/4's greatest disadvantage is the lack of the SID chip, but as a fellow Hungarian, we're kind of biased towards the Plushie, because it had a larger presence than the C64 in its time here.

A stillborn. The c16 was a vic replacement but the plus 4 was utterly pointless. It could have taken sales from tbe c64, didn't want that, so it was technically weaker. But cost more. Madness.

You are aware that the 2600 version of Empire Strikes Back came out the year before Jeff Minter's AOTMC..?

Ted is a much limited "Soundchip". More like a squarewave beeper

I am greek but living in germany

@@GeorgesChannel I worked for years with Germans and you sound pretty much the same ;) Greetings from Poland!

i try my best not to sound like this..about unfortunatly the environment shapes the voice. :) Greetings to Poland

@@GeorgesChannel Thanks! Hey. The German accent is fine when speaking English👍! Compare it to Italian or Russian ;) These are yet just fine because I can easily understand all of these but I'm in trouble when I listen to someone from India ;) Having the accent isn't that bad because it answers the question /*where are you from?*/ - without a single word :)👌Keep a good work on your channel. Cheers!

@GoWithAndy-cp8tz Thank you for your good words. Apreciate it :) Have a nice day