The Engine more Powerful than a Big Boy? - DM&IR "Yellowstone" 

If we’re gonna be making numbers comparisons like this, best get a better understanding of what those numbers mean in real life. Yes, the DMIR engines have more rated tractive effort than the Big Boys do, but the difference is minimal (140k lbs vs 135 k lbs). That means the maximum tonnage both locomotives could start and pull on the same gradients was also quite similar. Indeed, a DMIR M-3/4 would be rated for ~2,300 tons on a 2.2% hill while a UP 4000-class would be rated for ~2,200 tons, a difference of only 100 tons or so, the equivalent of about 4 unloaded cars from that era of railroading. Where the Big Boys outshine the DMIR Yellowstones is in their general purpose design. The Yellowstones had smaller drivers (63 inches vs 68 inches) and thus had a lower top speed and achieved maximum drawbar horsepower at a lower speed as well (both were rated for about 6,000 hp). The Big Boys could take the same tonnage that the DMIR engines could and accelerate that tonnage to a higher speed. In short, the UP Big Boys could show up on the DMIR and perform the same work that the Yellowstones were doing without much additional difficulty, but the reverse cannot be said about the DMIR engines. Yes, the Yellowstones would have handled Wasatch grade and Sherman Hill as well as the Big Boys, but would have fallen flat on the Wyoming plateau, territory where the Big Boys could take the same 4000-5000 ton trains they dragged up the hill and accelerate them up to 55-60 mph.

It doesn't matter who is the better of the two, they are both awsome pieces of steam technolagy and we can all agree on that :)

It’s important to note that the Yellowstones and Big Boys were built for two different purposes. The Big Boys were built more for fast freights and not so much for heavy drags because of their geographic route availability. The Yellowstones were built for slow heavy drags. They worked in more densely populated areas where speed wasn’t as key. The Big Boys meanwhile mainly worked in sparsely populated areas, mainly southern Wyoming, part of Colorado, and even Utah, where speed was more key, not to mention they were deep in America’s interior while the Yellowstones were closer to the shore. Also, the DM&R Yellowstones weren’t the only Yellowstones that could output a Big Boy, the NP’s Z-5’s were the only other ones that could. The Big Boys are like the Western Pacific challengers; dessert articulateds. These mallets that could outperform the Big Boys, Yellowstones, Etc, had a different purpose in mind, and different geographic terrain.

I worked on the DM&IR from 1974 to 1989…out of PROCTOR and TWO HARBORS…..I never heard anybody….brakemen-conductors-switchman-engineers-or firemen…..call these engines “Yellowstones,”- in THEIR common everyday vernacular, these engines were referred to as “MALLETS” -- all these old-timers are now retired and gone….but if there had ever been a contest of strength between these two powerhouse locomotives……it would have been spectacular….and they wouldn’t have missed it……I witnessed quite a gathering of retired rails and rail fans on the day a switch-engine delivered (shoved) a mallet into the RAILROAD MUSEUM in DULUTH, MINNESOTA…..for the first time ever…..it was almost too big to get through the doors of the building…..they had to scramble a little bit…..but they got it through, anyway-and that was a good day for everybody…..

Thank you for featuring our locomotive! The Lake Superior Railroad Museum thanks you! The LSRM recently made a video on these engines too, and I was the star! Yellowstones likely won't be coming back, and the LSRM certainly won't be restoring ours. If we have a huge rich person to buy out one of the 3 engines, then CN might run it, as CN owns the DM&IR.

Let's not forget that a Big Boy No. 4014 did visit Duluth, Minnesota back in 2019.

Need to compare the Big Boy to the Yellowstone to the Alleghany. There's an Alleghany engine at the Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI.

Seen both Big Boy and Yellowstone up close, both are awe inspiring machines. No need to claim one is superior to another, both were designed for different purpose and geography, they served their purpose really well. It is like arguing which is the better cat, Tiger or the Lion

Big boy and Yellowstone after finding out eachother’s existance: Finally! A worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary!

Hyce pointed out that Big Boy was never the biggest or the most powerful but i would say that Big Boy was probably the fastest and an all around best jack of all trades articulated engine. Btw Duluth is pronounced as Duh-looth. Instead of Duh-luth. They DMIR needed permission from the railroad to buy these because of resources but the Iron range was deemed necessary for the war effirt so it was easily granted. The one in the Lake Superior Museum has its drivers spun by an electric motor with an audio history on the engines. Plus it was basically restored before being put undercover so it would be the one to get going again if that ever happened.

Great video, i "subscribed." Belatedly remembered something about a German super-steam locomotive we took custody of as a war prize, brought over here, and eventually scrapped. Yes, I'm kicking myself for not having the article.😧

Mallet #227 is at my work and this video has been the talk of the depot, love it!!

Pardon my strange comment but if a Union Pacific Big Boy and an C&O Allegheny were to have a baby, the Yellowstone would be the resulting child!

some models of GN and NP locomotives were rated using a much more conservative equation than other locomotives. In many documented engineering studies, the GN and NP locomotives that worked the northern routes between Seattle and Montana and east of there too were the most powerful steam locomotives EVER used in the US.

I think an honorable mention should go to the Soviet P38 Articulated Locomotive, which featured the same 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone Wheel Arrangement, and had a unique Semi-Streamlined Casing.

I'm just gonna leave this here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-eo69o-J8abY.html Okay, so I can't stay quiet if this is going to be the video for this week. The DM&IR are probably the most loved steam engines in the State of Minnesota after Milwaukee Road S-3 No. 261 and I am a fan of them myself as I've visited the Lake Superior Railroad Museum a few times. The fact that all three are preserved at home where they worked is probably something to brag about. Thank you for covering these Missabe Monsters. It gives the Minnesotans and the iron ore railfans alike something to unite over and show the world what was so special about the Minnesota Iron Range. Anyone who is not from Minnesota, and especially out of the country, be amazed!

Apart from mispronouncing Duluth, this is actually really cool. W Train of Thought.

“Vs. Klungo” from Banjo-Tooie, a classic!

I don't remember the tractive effort on the Virginian's 2-10-10-2's, but they were extremely powerful, albeit slow.

The Yellowstone was the mightiest of them all for me, but was unsuited for fast freights as the top speed was too low. It was probably most in its element at 20-25mph which would be the typical speed for a loaded ore train. Because ore was the main bulk commodity transported by the DM&IR speed wasn't important, it was important to get the continuous flow of ore trains going, so a locomotive that was reliable and would keep the stuff moving in all kinds of circumstances was more important.

FINALLY THANK YOU W TRAIN OF THOUGHT

My buddies and I would hop these monsters for a ride up the hill out of West Duluth , in the 50 s. Never forget the power. The one in Proctor is awsome.

Imagine making a consist of the Yellowstone Bigboy challenger and 844

Have you done a video on the N&W Y6b yet? Another big boy-ish locomotive to take a look at!

Also look up the H-8 Alleghenys of the Chesapeake and Ohio. Not quite as much tractive effort, but more powerful and faster than a UP Big Boy. Also needed a 3-axle trailing truck to support the firebox because of lower quality coal.

Great video. Too bad more attention was not given to the correct pronunciation of Duluth. For local people a bit of a laugher

Pronunciation: d’LOOTH. Great video!

Would be a feat to see a Yellowstone restored, and have it meet with 4014. I doubt there'd be many places to run it though unless you paired it with freight trains on mainline.

the fun thing is meanwhile the People always debate about who's the biggest,most powerful and what it was ment to do hauling heavy or fast UP Bigboy N&W Y6 DM&IR / B&O Yellowstones C&O / Virgina Alleghenies Bear in mind the Largest EVER build was a 2-10-10-2 for the Virgina so large it had to be partly dismantled to even get transported to Virginia. and then think about the Pennsylvania Q2's the strongest Messured Steamengine ever been on a Dyno Going well past 55mph while hauling a heavy train.

Great video, but I think tractive effort is measured in just pounds, not pound-feet. Pound-feet is a measurement of torque, whereas tractive effort is a pure force exerted measurement. I cannot fathom the size of the engines - when you said 5ft3in drive wheels and I saw them look small, I thought to myself that standing lineside as one of these goes past must have been like watching a building fly by.

Just in case you have to say it again in the future, most folks say it " D'looth ". We've got lots of bastardized French and native placenames, in the US and Duluth is one. (Not a complaint, just a tip!)

It’s the D M and I R. Not DMIR. Also you stated iron ore mines in Wisconsin. Where? It was Minnesota and the UP of Michigan.

I like train and Big boy is My favorite steam engine.

I say restoration of the yellow stone to operation would be better than sitting in a museum.

dont forget the sovier p38 class

Dear commentator, it is not pronounced DMIR. It is stated DM and IR. Or at least it is to all the locals in northern .minnesota.

big boy vs yellowstone vs alleghany

What about the N & W A and Y6s?

If I win the lottery.... I would buy me a Yellowstone and a rebuild a new Haven crusader

Enjoyed thar but could do without the crazy arcade noises under the voice. Thank you....

I almost got an HO yellowstone, but my empty wallet told me no. One day ill get one, one day...

The Chesapeake & Ohio 2-6-6-6 "Allegheny" has just entered the chat.

Might as well call a Yellowstone a Big Boy. It's lacking only one axle? 😮 come on! 🤔

The Yellowstones were in fact more powerful than big boys. They had more horsepower and more tractive effort. They weren't faster or longer however but some types were heavier to a point. The DM&IR truly did have titans working for them. 3 of which are still around today and could possibly be restored. We'll, probably not given the roughly 10 million it would cost to do so and to to have even the slightest infrastructure for it. Plus, where would you run it? It's too big to run anywhere but a class 1 road. BNSF maybe??? But again, it's also NOT fast enough topping out at about 45 miles an hour maybe 50 on a good day going downhill. The SP AC-9 locomotives were as fast as a big boy, 75 miles per hour top speed. They ran those speeds very rarely however. There were a few times when an AC-9 was used on the Sunset Limited albeit as a helper to my admittedly limited knowledge.

The Powerful Boy

Imagine having to shovel 10 tons of coal an hour in a sauna.

The big Boy were not the Biggest. but it IS the biggest RUNNING Steamlocomotive. Same with the german BR 18 201. That ist nit the fastest ever build steam locomotive, but it is the fastest RUNNING steam locomotive in the world.

I'm glad someone is looking past the hype to the actual numbers.

So you just said that the big boys are the literal biggest locomotives but the Yellowstones are the most powerfull there’s a difference

There were restrictions during World War II in regard to new locomotive classes. Very few entirely new classes were allowed to be built. Some railroads got around this by basing their new locomotives off existing ones. For example, the Pennsylvania Railroad ordered the J1 2-10-4 Texas type, which was directly based on the Chesapeake and Ohio T1 2-10-4. I’m guessing since the DM&IR 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone was based on an existing locomotive despite its modifications is why it was permitted to be built.

TT

A Yellowstone bigboy double header that would be a beautiful sight

Yes. Restore the Yellowstone and do a power competition. Then do a speed competition between Mallard and the T1.

I've gone through this topic before, IIRC the largest steam locomotive of any kind was the N&W John Henry steam turbine? It was also the most powerful as well? If we're talking conventional, the strongest theoretically was the Virginian AE 2-10-10-2, which while it was a compound machine, apparently when simpled for starting a train could output around a 170 thousand pounds of tractive effort. People keep making a point that the Alleghenys weren't slippery (how the hell would that thing NOT slip with the weight of the entire firebox ontop the 3 axle tender truck ???), which, is highly doubtful, thank you to Wikipedia: the World Encyclopedia for bringing that about.

duh-LOOTH

Cool fact: the Yellowstone at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum is rigged up to a mechanism that makes the wheels turn, so you can see those mighty drivers in action.

I've always thought the Y6B Locomotives were bigger than the big boy as well?

Should note that they *regularly* hauled 18,000 ton trains up a 2% grade. With several documents to back up this number (most at the museum in Duluth) 227 is love, 227 is life. :)

Imagine if a Big Boy and a Yellowstone both went toe to toe in a strength competition, that would be a sight to behold!

I was lucky enough to see Big Boy roll through Union Station in Kansas City 5 years ago. It's such an extraordinary piece of machinery.

Minnesota Railfan here, it is a personal gripe of mine that the DMIR Yellowstone Locomotives are overshadowed as much as they are by the Big Boys. They are incredible feats of engineering. You can see one "run" at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum in Duluth, MN. It doesnt actually run, but the wheels do spin. The average speed of these guys were 20mph. They could go 45, but they never did. The rails around Northern Minnesota are too tight, too steep and too treacherous to go fast. Thats one of the reasons they went big. If you have to have a train doing 20 mph, its more efficient if its moving 4 trains worth of cargo.

These were the first of the true "super power" locomotives I ever saw when my mom and dad first took me on vacation to Duluth, Minnesota in 2011. In Proctor I first got my glimpse of heavy haul when I saw one of the M3 Yellowstones that're still around and my god are they fierce machines! That same year was also when the old Duluth Missabe & Iron Range Railroad got bought out by the Canadian National Railroad or whatever line it's apart of now. From the mines to the harbor to have the ore loaded onto freighters such as the Edmund Fitzgerald and the Arthur M. Anderson to go to Pittsburgh and other great cities on the Eastern Sea Board to power the metal making industry.

Big boy: I AM THE STRONGEST, LARGEST, MOST POWERFUL, BOW TO MEEEE Yellowstone: lmao weak shit

N&W Y6b was the king of tractive effort

Pound-feet is a unit of torque. Pound force is a unit of tractive effort.

Big Boy VS Yellowstone. Get ready... FIGHT!

Not stated, but the reason why the DM&IR didn't use the Yellowstones in the winter was that the ore ships were iced in and couldn't deliver the ore to the rail head.

Yep. I'm familiar with these as the DMIR is in my backyard. I've seen the one on display in Proctor, MN more times I can count. Good video.

Let’s also not forget about N&W’s Y6B class of locomotives. The last of mainline steam

The Yellowstones are definitely fine engines, but I think that an Allegheny could give a big boy a run for it's money.

Three of them are left in preservation and all in Minnesota in the area they worked. M3 Class #225 in Proctor, MN in a public park next to the DM&IR’s yard in Proctor; M3 #227 in Duluth, MN; and M4 Class #229 in Two Harbors, MN. Though #229 is actually the fourth DMIR Yellowstone to be put on display there. Number 222 was first in 1960 until it was called back to service for fan trips, #236 followed #222 on display later that same year, until it was brought back to thaw iron ore during that winter, #221 replaced #236 until 1967 when it deteriorated so badly the DMIR decided to scrap it, with #229 (with the tender from #222 fittingly enough) replacing the 221.

The B&O also had Yellowstones the EM1s, They were built during World War II to help the war effort by Baldwin in 1944 and were all retired by the late 50s

There is always debate as to what locomotive is biggest, strongest, and so on. One locomotive, often overlooked was the Virginia's 2-10-10-2's They too were monster locomotives. I may be wrong, but I believe that the 2-10-10-2's still hold the record for tonnage haul by a single locomotive. They had very small drivers, allowing for huge tractive effort, but were very slow. It was said that the engineer could get the engine running at full speed, climb out of the cab, run to the front, climb back on the engine and control the thing from the front, by an auxiliary throttle. There is a book about the Virginian (I can't remember the author), where they tell the story of the 2-10-10-2"s. Nice video. The DM&IR 2-8-8-4's are also often overlooked too, mostly because of Big Boy's. ;-)

"steep grades"? "Minnesota and Wisconsin"? My visible confusion when those places are not known for serious elevation differences

Tractive effort can be expressed as pounds-force. Pound-feet can refer to torque, which is rotational force, which by itself doesn't tell you anything very useful.

the Challanger, EM-1 Yellowstone, & Y classes could outdo the Big Boy. Its also ironic that even the companies that model these engines pull better than the big boy. My BLI Y6B and Bachmann EM-1 both outpull a Kato Big Boy. That I've seen so far. Both can pull about 80-85 freight cars up a 2.3% before signs of a struggle. Kato's Big Boy starts struggling at 65 cars.

4014 can now run on the mainline without a diesel helper due to having PTC installed. 😊

Finally the Minnesota super Iron ore Articulated Giga haulers got some spotlight i can be eternally happy now

N&W Y6b: look at what they need to mimic a fraction of my power

I'm glad that there are Americans and companies That have kept these locomotive relics! And have kept them in a state or condition to where someday they can be restored and brought back to life! The american experience in the world of live steam and iron and steel steam locomotives!

The french "mallet" articulate also had stronger drawbar pull than B.B. 👈

Big Boys are bigger, heavier and faster Yellow Stones are smaller, slower and stronger

Nothing gets my inner rail fan more excited than an engine with a double set of drive wheels.

The Union Pacific Big Boy is the king of steam but this other engine looks okay

Do a video on one of the Philippines Steam Locomotives

Pound feet of tractive effort....?

I like all of the other steam locomotive mentioned in this video but the Big Boy 4884 to me is still the Greatest Of All Time.

5:11 "That is until somehow gets fed up and decides to bite off..." oh. So you weren't going there...

American railroads have always preferred assigning bigger locomotives over assigning more locomotives, because it was almost always cheaper.

And yet, the C&O's Alleghenies had more horsepower than either of these engines. The trouble with trying to compare these engines is that they were built to fill different roles. The Big Boys were to sprint across the western plains. The Yellowstones were to drag unbelievably heavy ore trains out the iron range of Minnesota at much slower speeds. They Alleghenies were design under the Super Power philosophy so they had boilers that would always produce 10% more steam than the engines could consume so they would never run out of power.

the UP 4000's aren't the longest, heaviest, or most powerful steam locomotives ever built. But good luck find a single locomotive that tops the 4000's in two of those metrics.

There is a Yellowstone on display at Proctor, MN also

A lot of people are trying to compare the two straight up, but I think the only fair comparison would be to compare a similar load over the same line, with factoring in fuel used, maintenance needed, and the overall speed in which it was done, over a month or so, to see which one was more economical. Economics is the deciding factor in choosing a locomotive, after all, railroading is a BUSINESS....

The VGN AG,and the C&O H-9 Alleghenies(2-6-6-6)are definitely in that running for high tractive effort/boiler power,as like the Big Boy,the boiler rating was over 6000HP! And the TE rating was proportional! Anyway,they are in the top 3,or 5 depending on whose ratings,you're following! Thank you 😇 😊!

“That boy is our biggest engine.” “No. There is another.”

The N&W Y6B they were smaller and put out way more tractive effort then both the big boys and Yellowstones

I actually remember when Big Boy 4014 met DMIR 227 (Sorta). During the Big Boy's race across the Midwest, it would stop at the Lake Superior railroad museum for their festival of steam event. While DMIR 227 and 4014 never interacted, they were in the same location for 2 days. I was fortunate to attend this event, and I have even seen all 3 remaining Yellowstone locomotives. 227 is at the Lake Superior railroad museum. 229 is at the Two Harbors Depot. And 225 is next to a high school in Proctor, Minnesota.

The cost of running steam, and that's what matters, was comparable. What finished steam was the lack of of R@D. Basically they had not changed in 100yrs. and some smart salesman from the diesel mfrs. with some very tempting finance arrangements seized the opportunity. Chapel the Frenchman gave steam another life but American mfrs. did not use his technology. A friend of mine, Ted Pritchard designed and built a steam unit for motor vehicles fifty years ago. It was and still is the lowest emission engine in the world. Took it to America demonstrated it to Senators and vehicle mfrs.. Did they want it?NO. Why? I could be excused for believing it was political. Same as the steam locos. He could have designed and built 6,000 H.P. locos but because the politicians here are walking around backwards it did not happen. When the Abrams tank got into trouble with gas turbines, which a monkey would have known about, an American ambassador wanted him to go to Fort Dix and design a steamer. He was against war and declined. He was a brilliant engineer and I doubt we will see his likes again. I tell young people with ambition to get out of this country fast.

I saw them daily pulling into the DMIR staging before pushing Ore Cars up on Loading Dock. VERY POWERFUL 140 ORE car loads not uncommon. Separate bell on back of tender deck too.

Extremely interesting video, thank you very much, and Many Thanks for including Metric equivalents for the rest of the world! That was much appreciated.