The Excommunication of John Dehlin 

Greg Hurley I love the internet so I can learn alot about what you anti-mormons are saying. It is actually the best thing that ever happened and it will accelerate convert baptisms.

+Robert Wallace Please explain. What historical issue brought up by "anti-Mormons" has helped you with your faith?

+The Mormonologist Mountain Meadow massacre for one. Polyandry for two, do I need to go on?

Robert Wallace I'd be interested to hear how those have helped your faith. How have they helped you? By the way, if those are actual historical events then I think we can stop calling it anti-mormon, right? I mean can facts be anti-mormon? I'm just trying to have a civil conversation. Sometimes its hard to decipher attitude in text.

What are u talking about Mormon hate technology so what is there ploblem so let be honest the church complain about technology So I don’t care I think that the church need just to back off about technology if they don’t like it get over it for real.

Actually, you confuse your perversion of the truth, your "half-truth" as being the same as the "truth".... in contrast to the Church, the Gospel of Christ which actually IS about the truth, the whole and entire truth, minus perversion and falsehood.

leeuniverse Would you please explain why Joseph Smith married 10 woman who were already married to living husbands? No Mormon has ever explained that to me. If the purpose of polygamy was to have more children then that would not explain why Joseph married these woman. A woman with 2 husbands can't have more children than a woman with just 1. Also it is clearly adultery by any Christian standard.

isthechurchtrue 11 Husbands ! total of 34 wives two 14 year old's one mother daughter and two sister pairs ! The Many Wives of Joseph Smith; Visualized www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/09/the-many-wives-of-joseph-smith.html The Wives of Brigham Young; Visualized www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/09/the-wives-of-brigham-young.html Joseph Smith vs Warren Jeffs; Visualized www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/08/joseph-smith-vs-warren-jeffs-visualized.html

The Church has lied and covered up history for years !

leeuniverse "Perversion of truth . . ." That is a Mormon's trained response to any attack on the LDS faith. You can’t see it from where you are, but the church prepares and teaches you that response (starting in Primary). It becomes automatic and you draw that conclusion before examining any evidence. Not your fault, but certainly occluded. Open your Book of Abraham to Facsimile #3 and count the number of female characters depicted. See them? There are two. Now compare that to the captions that Joseph wrote for these characters. Question: Why would Abraham draw the two most powerful men in the world as short, curvy, long-haired, small-footed females? Why would he write "Isis" and "Maat" above their heads? Why would Abraham be wearing a hat that distinctly belongs to Osiris? It is not a perversion of truth to draw the conclusion that this image has nothing to do with Abraham. Truth is singular. In this case, the truth is that this image belongs to Egyptian mythology and is quite appropriate to be found with a mummy. Unfortunately, this actual truth opposes Mormonism. For you to hold to the belief that this is something it is not is a perversion of truth. It is a willful dissociation from truth. The truth is not on your side, so you ignore it. . . . and then accuse anti-mormons of perverting truth. Wow!

Santo Atheos Nice picture Santo.

deskjockie49 *By excommunicating John Dehlin, what the LDS church is saying is that it does not want members who are seekers of truth.* That's baloney. Dehlin is better off outside of the churh. There are certain things the church is not going to bend on. Women in the priesthood is one, and having practicing gays as members is another.

Terry Tippets I agree with you that John Dehlin is better off outside the church. He now has an even better opportunity to be guided by love instead of a restrictive mindset. As far as "there are certain things the church is not going to bend on...", I wouldn't be too sure about that. There was a time when the church was "not going to bend" on giving up polygamy, or blacks holding the priesthood.

deskjockie49 Polygamy was only temprary. And blacks holding the priesthood was just waiting on a revelation. I know you don't believe it, but that was the mindset of LDS for years. We knew that at some point, blacks woud receive the priesthood. The same feeling does not apply to women getting the priesthood (the majority of LDS women are against it, actually), or having practicing gays in the church. Have a good one!

Terry Tippets "Polygamy was only temporary" you say? Listen to your prophets' words: -"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 11, p. 269 -"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). -"Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity or non-essential to the salvation or exaltation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe, that a man with one wife, sealed to him by authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I wish here, to enter my solemn protest against this idea, for I know it to be false. The marriage of one woman to a man for time and eternity by the sealing power, according to the law of God, is a fulfillment of the celestial law of marriage IN PART --and is good so far as it goes--and so far as a man abides these conditions of the law, he will receive his reward therefore, and this reward, or blessing, he could not obtain on any other grounds or conditions. But this is only the beginning of the law, not the whole of it. Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain a fulness of the blessings pertaining to the celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. He cannot receive the fulness of the blessings unless he fulfills the law, any more than he can claim the gift of the Holy Ghost after he is baptized without the laying on of hands by proper authority, or the remission of sins without baptism, though he may repent in sackcloth and ashes." "I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in the Church who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned. I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify, in the name of Jesus that it does mean that." - The Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, pp. 28, 30, 31 - "Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change, and my covenants and my law do not. And as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph, All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law, and have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham's seed, and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham. I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof, even so, Amen." The Prophet John Taylor, Revelation of Sept. 26 1886 Where does this say that polygamy was "only temporary"? "And blacks holding the priesthood was just waiting on a revelation. I know you don't believe it, but that was the mindset of LDS for years. We knew that at some point, blacks would receive the priesthood" you say. As to blacks getting the priesthood, listen again: "How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. - (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, October 9, 1859) THIS was the position of the church for over a hundred years on blacks getting the priesthood So, has the point been reached when "the last residue of the family of Adam's children...(has) come up and receive(d) the blessings of the priesthood" in order to remove the 'curse' from the 'seed of Cain'?

deskjockie49 All well and good, dude, except that polygamy is only a doctrine of the church when the Lord commands polygamy. He's not commanding it today. The Journal of Discourses is not official doctrine of the church. Never has been and never will be. Brigham Young was expressing an opinion, which he had every right to do. *"THIS was the position of the church for over a hundred years on blacks getting the priesthood "* Actually, it ws the postion of Brigham Young. You're trying to debate LDS doctrine when you don't even know what it is, dude. That puts you dead in the water before you even begin. Educate yourself: www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine The above link explains what LDS doctrine is, and what it takes for something to become doctrine. Have a good one!

+Rob Poulson Open rebellion is not something to proudly proclaim....HE is openly fighting what the leaders of the body of saints not only believe but practice. Revelation has not been given to accept them, you must remember, this is NOT anyones church but Jesus Christ...KNOW this before they hate you, they have hated me, and he who hates me, hates HIM that sent me who said this?

Its not His church

Rob Poulson Well if you know where his is, proclaim it to the world and show everyone that everything he left in his church while alive is still there, please!?

Its not His church, because it was made up by Joseph Smith who was a con man and a fraud

Rob Poulson So you dont know, but yet prefer to just rant...ohhhh ok

Terry Reynolds He also cares alot about the money he's asking people to donate.

Robert Wallace Not as much as the LDS church cares about your 10% that you MUST GIVE THEM for a ticket to the Celestial Kingdom.

Stephanie Salazar he is absolutely amazing. Extremely supportive to ALL. No matter where you are in your faith.

No they not have seen how some Bishops don’t help members at all let be honest I was trying to find something to do earn some cash n the bishop never call me back ser easy to say one thing but is another do the right thing so yeah there is 0 trust when it’s come to the bishop so I don’t know what is the bs they are saying but there is a difuntion between a bishop n memebers sorry

More than that, they only want people who will toe the line, no questions asked.

Generally, they are fine with our human imperfections. But they don't want people who question the General Authorities or the doctrine.

That's a crock of baloney.

NaDopros"nor will they tolerate gay activists" There are many members in the church that do support gay marriage, and the church does not discipline them. Quit lying. It seems your anti-mormon views are based on the church's stance on gay marriage, a lifestyle that robs children of the right/blessing to have a father or a mother because their artificial parents are of the same sex. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

guitarplayingcountry I'm an atheist. I am anti-Mormonism and anti Christianity. As well as anti-Islam. And, just plain anti-superstition... Any superstition. Do you still consider me anti Satan? I'm guessing the answer is "no." But I don't believe in your imaginary friends. Nor your imaginary enemies.

Yes, sit in the back of the room and keep your options to yourself.

I don't think this is even honest. I was taught about Joseph's marriages to Eliza and Emily Partridge, Helen Mar Kimball, and Eliza R. Snow, as early as my freshman year of seminary, and that was 1992.

+Tai P. Ho'o ..These are people who have a different agenda to make...nothing to do with honesty.

John Lee Do you use this language in your fast and testimony talks? LOL! White sepulcher!

Stephanie Salazar really bc I don’t believe that n top of that what type of church has a health code the Mormon church is claiming that they are the truth church but they are not bc they saying everyone else is wrong that is not the way it’s supposed to be I am sorry there is no way that lds is the truth church sorry that claim is completely garbage n false to be honest so I don’t know what u talking about but the lds church can’t claim to be the truth church

Stephanie... You're young. Read the church history.. Not an antimormon website USE OFFICIAL CHURCH HISTORY. -Different versions of first vision -Joseph Marrying the wives of men he sent on missions

Study Stephanie. I was a member from age 15 to age 58. Resigned. Free through Christ.

What "miracles" did you see with your own eyes?

+Samoa Those Preisthood teachings are not correct. Jesus Christ is last with these skills read Bible! Peter Popoff on YT does same healings search videos!!!! Do you believe it? I have been told dark side can do same healing! Lucifer speaks in Temple Endowment and give instructions!!!!! Do just opposite! SAMOA people are more easily brought into LDS religion because speak different language or understand another language more and concepts? Fact LDS teach polytheistic GODS think appeals to SAMOA PEOPLE. Bible contradicts this multiple GODS ideas. BOM from 1830 is actually most normal of JS books. Jesus Christ is the eternal GOD the father. Changed in LDS and shows Jesus Christ being seperate being from GOD.

"last with these skills" Obviously you have no credibility since you are ignorant about the priesthood. The priesthood is not of set of skills, it's the power and authority of God that he gives as a blessing to the faithful. "I have been told dark side can do same healing". Nice! Have you also been told that Satan cannot cast out Satan? Devils have been cast out by priesthood holders of our church. So, remember, Jesus said Satan cannot cast out Satan. Hence, your argument goes down the drain. You do not know that due to such miracles, many people in Samoa and other countries have converted to the faith. Yet, the church is generally quiet about it; unlike, other denominations that claim to perform miracles through the media, whose ministers come to Samoa, attempts/acts to perform a miracle, then takes off in a private jet, leaving an ailing individual in the same sickly condition and scrambling to get his money back. If Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and was wrong about practicing polygamy, surely, the priesthood he claimed to have restored through angelic administration cannot perform miracles; and that is one of my strongest points/reasons why I know that people like you are dead wrong.

PhilPhan How many have you seen?

Samoa Obviously you do not know Bible and Gods word. You think LDS have authority LOL no one else has? A real Prophet is not someone elected. It could be bum on street. My point is there is no authority. There is no Religious group! I have learned online that Lucifers power yes this is what LDS are doing! Watch Endowment Ceremony online YT Lucifer tells people to put on his apron represents his power and his priesthood. Can you explain this? Have you ever witnessed same miracles talked about in Bible? Spliting Red Sea. Making blind vision work again with laying of hands. Make cripple person start walking again. LDS are brainwashed I know they think there is some power but truth is witch craft occult stuff there doing. They do not have special powers LOL that is just crazy.

+bom pogp I see your got another anti something of your case...continue the good work, bro.

mormons son yeah I know....but the gospel needs to be preached, thanks son. keep the good work moving along.

bom pogp no problems

Then they should excommunicate every member of the mormon tabernacle choir for using such a false name!! In fact you could tell them yourself! Phone# : 801.240.4150

Steven Gossum Were you offended by your church's use of the word Mormon in their PR stunts like the I'M A MORMON campaign, or the MEET THE MORMONS film?

I tried that approach for about 18 months. In my experience, the church leadership and culture does not want to make room for non-correlated members who are vocal about their positions and the problems with the correlated doctrines being taught in the church. They basically pushed me out the doors by making me unwelcome.

+Roberto S. I don't think that John ever called for the church to change it's doctrine. He did argue for the church to make room for those who are not orthodox and for policy changes. But, those are different things all together and are not worthy of being excommunicated. IMO, he became too big for the church to ignore, and a lot of people were (and still are) listening to him. He was leading people out of the church by validating their concerns and problems that they had with the church. The church either needs to prune these type of people (which they are doing) or make room for unorthodox believers.

+Roberto S. What your saying is not true. John was not advocating any alternative religious doctrines or teaching a different religion. He is a critic of the L.D.S. Church, not a religious teacher. This is simply the church trying to silence and discredit one of its critics who had the courage to publicly question the foundational claims of Mormonism.

+Rob Poulson ...John is the founder of the Mormon Stories podcast and outspoken advocate for gay rights, same sex marriage, and the LDS ordain women movement....anything else to mention? He is OPENLY fighting the church [ Christ's ] and his teachings...IF He were to do this say in the Catholic or Anglican churches, he may be received with open arms, but this is not their Church nor John's.

+Roberto S. What would have said in the times after Malachi? Till the times of John the Baptist, WOW 400 year gap, nothing from God, yet you cannot apply the very same principles to them, even THOUGH we have the Book of Mormon-Doctrine and Covenants- Revelation ADDED to D&C after the murder of Joseph Smith, Teachings of the leaders etc etc....doesnt count to you it seems? ALL in the past 170 years...OHHHHHH I SEEE , you want God to personally come to you and explain the mysteries of life and the bible to you, well brother, make yourself worthy of his presence?

+mormons son My comment was directed specifically to Roberto S. Not to you.

Please do so Quincy.

??? Quite odd. April 4, 2019.

An honest assessment of questions does tend to do that.

Come on Quincy.

@Hosoi: it is just you.

+dee hee we can't all be good enough to live on planet Kolob . . .

+Rob Poulson ...Kolob, who lives on planet kolob rob?

+mormons son Elohiem, the mormon god

Rob Poulson I do believe you are mistaken on this subject, hell I KNOW your mistaken but I will allow you time to read what is actually says and not what you think it says....after you have read it, comment back and see if you are going to say the same thing again? www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng I urge you to read the whole chapter to gain a greater understanding of what you do not have right now?

your really gonna go there?

Paul, John is much too gracious to give the answer your question deserves. God was obviously talking to the secretary who was recording these momentous words for posterity. Course, that's only a guess, as I hadn't been created at that point.

Not a good idea to base deep theological arguments on a translated text without familiarity with the original language. The plural form of the word you're talking about, Elohim, is about the majesty of God, not about multiple gods. The Old Testament is perfectly clear about one God.

Austin Twiwble Yep. And he;s trying to take as many people as possible with him.

+Robert Wallace if telling the truth about Mormon history makes people want to leave, I guess you could say that reality also wants to take people with it.

+The Mormonologist Who said he's telling the truth?

Robert Wallace Says everything we know about the historical record, including just about every biography written about Joseph Smith, and also including every mormon historian. If you have an example of a false claim that John Dehlin has stated as fact, please bring that to the table.

Robert Wallace I have read several biographies about Joseph Smith and Emma, including church-approved ones...And coincidentally they all say the same things that John has been saying. He might have a wrong interpretation of the facts, but the facts are certainly not up for debate. I only need to point you to ANY book about the subject or possibly even the church's own essays to confirm what he is saying.

What about the other 13 humanoid species? Scientists have been species of human like skeletons. Neanderthals are our closest. It is shown that Neanderthals also have brains much like us. Also why is their DNA in between 80-90% of the human population? I bring that up because you say we're created in the image of God. Yet, why does DNA determine what we look like? There's no way we looked like we did before coming to Earth assuming there was a pre-mortal life. Just things to think about!

The problems with LDS doctrine are very real and, more painfully, the top 15 are completely silent about these very large problems. John is a stalwart, stand-up guy. He put himself out there and asked the tough questions. I don’t know him personally, but I believe he is a person anyone would be happy to know. This is just flat rotten. I hope it blows up in the 15’s face. Just like the Catholic dogma of Galileo’s day, they just insist that they are right and refuse to look at any evidence contrary to their dogma. Makes me sick that they would do this to John.

***** If LDS doctrine is all wrong, why would John care if he's excommunicated. Likewise, why would you care. Seriously, what is the big deal.

firecloud77 John likes the lifestyle and is trying to start a movement where LDS members can speak their mind about their doubts to others and feel safe about it. So far the LDS church will excommunicate you if you do. If the LDS church really loved and care for you, they would try to understand your point-of-view, not try to kick you out for being honest about your feelings. Well, I should say being publicly honest with your feelings. They don't care if you keep it to yourself. Another thing the LDS church will excommunicate you for is telling truths that hurt their faith. If they think it's not faith promoting what you said, even if it's true, they'll axe you. Oh, and another thing John did was help keep people in the LDS faith who were having doubts. This was a bad PR move by the LDS church. People are leaving the church in large numbers because the truth of things are showing up all over the internet. Facts when you see them, you can't honestly deny them because the evidence is so strong. That is why the essays are showing up to try to do damage control and bring up facts they didn't want to talk about, facts that in the past if someone found out and spoke out about them, they would be excommunicated for.

Phatooine I'm pretty sure that most Mormons would say that their church isn't about a lifestyle per se -- it's about a set of beliefs about God. I've watched John's RU-vid videos for years and I've seen him change and become more strident, and say things that make it sound like he doesn't even believe in a heavenly Father or Jesus, much less Joseph Smith. So it baffles me that he thinks a church he no longer believes in should change and adopt his new life philosophy when clearly the church has no intention of doing such a thing, and understandably so.

Jimmy Kennon funny. Our home is wonderful. And there’s not a single priesthood holder to be found. (Not even a person with a penis!) crazy.

The majority of the world who are not Mormon are doing just fine

Yes, it is a moral issue. It is immoral to deny others of fulfilling sexual and romantic relationships simply because they are different than the majority. It is immoral to deny others healthy self expression just because they are different than us. It is immoral to stand by anything that ignores the rights of others in favor of fear, hatred, misunderstanding, bigotry, ignorance etc. Absolutely this is an issue of morality. The question is: are we going to make the moral choice to love and accept others and grant them basic human rights or are we going to immorally continue to ostracize, ignore, demean, mistreat, deny, and belittle them? Morality is in how we treat each other. I choose to treat others morally.

+Trevor Weir And by all means keep drinking the Mormon Koolaid!

+Trevor Weir No matter how much you love the church, the church will never love you back. It will only judge you and take from you everything you have . . .

The gospel of Jesus Christ is true the Prophet Joseph Smith was Call of God we are not perfect but we can become perfect BY LIVING its teaching and obedient to his commandments I am praying that i can endure to the end

No, Trevor, you will never become perfect and you will never stop feeling inadequate as a human being as long as your stuck in that fraudulent mind trap called mormonism