I actually like the idea they had with Faust as games went on allowing both players to interact with his items more (oil spill in Xrd to the kick-able bomb+trumpet in Strive). I genuinely think it makes it a more interesting and dynamic experience than normally fighting Faust. It allows BOTH players to be big brained and plan for fun interactions. With some tweaking to make his kit and items better and some more dynamic item ideas, I think he could turn into the only item character I'd like fighting against.
honestly I'd say the whole crew is there with the mechanics that connect the game together and how defense is very weak compared to unique characters offensive potentials of what they /could/ do to someone
@@Coswalker27 that's what really pisss me off about the game. You're telling me that im getting punished for blocking for too long? The defense is ass in the game and I can't block for long so im just sitting there waiting for the guard to break and if I do roll then most of the cast has block strings that punish you for rolling.
@@pancakes7483 just pick your moment and gaurd cancel. It may not be a great option to get out of gaurd break blockstrings but its the best option we have. They need to buff all the gaurd cancels and make them cheaper. They also need to nerf swift master into the ground, slightly nerf hitman and dragonknight, and slightly buff the low tiers
@@pancakes7483 So is it that whoever manges to get through neutral and starts their pressure first pretty much wins? I was planning on getting DNF duel when the price drops but that sounds like hell
I’ve always referred to Zappa as a “Level Up” character since you have to grind out your resources and the power increase is usually so drastic it’s like jrpg leveling up lol Edit: I haven’t played a lot of BB but I always put susanoo in the category, don’t know much abt arakune
The Zappa/Arakune archetype is called Isekai Protag. They power up like in an anime to defeat the “demon” lord. There you still get the demon concept you mentioned 😂
You know LK, when you describe characters like arakune and zappa like that, it has me thinking that this archetype would fit in perfectly with strive’s current design idea for the dlc characters. They tend to hyper focus on one thing with these characters and the whole “usually weak but ridiculously strong when they get x condition” sounds like something that they would add in strive as a new character.
@@BaronCappuccino Nah. Every character has a win condition. The difference for those types of characters is how strong they are when they get it. Like Arakune/Zappa getting their win condition can be GG lol.
As someone who has mained/secondaried a lot of of the characters mentioned, I feel personally attacked lol Ironically, the problematic element is never actually the reason I play the character (except Teddie kind of). I play Faust because his normals are basically the range I want to play most fighting games (same goes for Amane), while I play Goldlewis and Arakune purely because I really like the character design.
XRD autozoners : - Elphelt rifle stance starts on you, but it's a semi and not full auto (pun intended) - Axl's stance thingy that was fairly exploitable does give me the same feeling you described : Spacing doesn't matter, I'm sorta forced to interact with the move itself and suddenly it feels like we're playing a mini-game rather than whatever was happening before I call the chip heavy characters the "Checkmate" archetype. It's a clean & easy word and also kind of extends to other win conditions that feel just as similar. I'd argue Naoto from P4A kinda falls into that category with her instant kill gimmick. So while she isn't a checkmate character at it's core, she has that trait. Venom has shades of it.
Elphelt rifle will miss if you're moving at all, and Axl will miss if he guesses wrong and both are pretty vulnerable if they miss. That's not like what LK described at all
As a an average Faust AND Millia enjoyer, I just wanna say that if I have to concede that faust items plays neutral for me, then Millia knockdown into disc automixes for me. In games like Marvel 2 and 3, you have to manually time your incoming mix relative to the time of the opponent coming in, which is a whole other set of variables you have to factor in. Millia HS disc mix gives you the timing on a silver platter, and choosing left or right is zero effort. And I'm not attacking LK here btw, I'm just sharing my experience. I love both characters, and I don't think that auto neutral = auto win. Just like I don't belive auto mix = win. Cause once Millia hits you it's not even that hard. And once Faust got in after skipping neutral, he doesn't even have much to do.
He did mention that the reason he hates them is that they play neutral for you though. At the very least with Millia you have to get through neutral (if you lose you take more damage and gain less meter either way). After you win neutral then you setup your auto mix. As much as I hate fighting Faust the fact that you can also interact with his items (specifically bomb and trumpet) means you both get that level of interaction and shenanigans even if it's with the item and not the player. But I get his point. I don't think he's saying they should be removed or that his characters don't have their own shenanigans, it's just the archetypes he personally hates, it's meant to be biased. He also loves neutral it seems lol
The archetype i hate the most: you hit them and thier projectile hits you back, bailing them out of your punish. In some cases it may even combo you/ lock you down letting the person you hit get in for free. Ill never understand why Arcsys allows characters to have autonomous projectiles with next to no real cost.
I think as long as it's not meterless I can copium myself into thinking it's kinda fair even tho some projectiles are busted even when metered. Kokonoe's fireball needs you to know a special route just to punish that shit optimally, it's so dumb
I love Faust. It's an excellent example how randomness can add skill. It's difficult to master how to react and adapt to the item randomness. It's awesome. (I also love Lum in Fantasy Strike but that's a tiny indie fighter.)
With Strive specifically, I find Goldlewis less egregious since while he has nightmarish offence and makes even blocking scary, he still has some really potent weaknesses to balance it out. His defence is awful, his movement is subpar, and while he has some really solid normals, they're usually pretty niche and/or pretty slow, so he at least has to work to get himself in and usually make at least a couple correct reads to get to do his shit. Happy Chaos just has near-uncontestable autozoning that he can get set up at almost any point, while also having fantastic normals and closerange ability. It feels like Happy Chaos being in advantage and doing what he wants to do is just the default state with him on the screen.
@@JP_KI But that's a good thing, it means he can run behind it. GL only has to look for the opponent jumping, since drone is plus infinity if blocked and running away means losing all screen space.
@@alvin_row I meant that he can't throw out full screen thunderbirds without waiting for security level 3 which takes a while. Sure he has an easy time to get in with it, but he doesn't have the option available to him at all times so it's more manageable compared to some other characters.
I hear a lot of people who played pre-strive Faust say they didn't like his teleporting door, or the scalpel standing, or any of his other abilities that actually required inputs.. but when I used to play him I didn't like the items... Why risk throwing an item that might not do what I want it to... When I can open a door to a different dimension, or annoy people with my scalpel shenanigans... But also I fought (nerfed) teddy and he annoys me so.. I don't like item throw from either side, the player or the opponent
so why do you hate Answer from Rev2 ? do u just dislike how he talks while fighting or u dislike his playstyle? I don't think he has pets/items, auto battle and chip damage, I think he's such a technical and cool character.
Funny enough, I love 2-step-neutral characters, but I have never liked item throwers. It's usually projectiles and puppets, like Mu-12, Venom, Dizzy and Strive Zato.
Tbh I agree on all the achetypes you mentioned. I'd also like to mention a "non-archetype": Characters with unblockable setups, and even worse when those can be looped.
I am very with you on chip damage characters. Been leery of guard crush since Strive came out, and wanted Goldlewis to remain bottom tier or get reworked away from using guard crush because of it. Winning without hitting the opponent shouldn't be possible, and it's crazy that that's totally within the realm of realistic possibility for him. This is honestly also my bigger problem with Happy Chaos than his auto-zoning, personally. Otherwise, I tend to say I dislike grapplers and zoners, but I think it really comes down to particular grapplers and zoners. Big grappler who takes off 40% with one move, like Gief or Pot? Oh yeah, not a fan. But a grappler who doesn't get as much off just a single grab, like Laura in SF5, I'm more okay with; or one that needs to do a combo off their grab to get the damage. It's the "one hit, unblockable move, lifebar deleted" feel that makes some grapplers so unpleasant to fight. Well, that and the fact that you kind of have to play keep-away against them because of how dangerous they are up close, which isn't a strategy I prefer. Similarly with zoning, it really depends upon how they feel. I do get frustrated losing to almost any zoner, but if they've got giant moves that just feel like they require no thought and have little counterplay, like Hilda in BBTag (I haven't played UNI to see her in her native habitat), it's a lot harder to respect than, say, Axle in Strive. Or if the game clearly favors them due to how it's designed, like in the Injustice games.
same on grapplers playing against them can suck so much because you're forced to play as lame as possible to zone them out and if they knock you down once you explode. i tend to play mid-range characters who can zone if necessary, and grapplers hate fighting me but i don't like playing them either, the matchup just sucks for both players
Goldlewis has always been prone to zoning so you have a way to stay out of his pressure and avoid being chipped at least. I have no idea what they were thinking with Happy Chaos's aimbot guard crush bullshit though.
@@thomaschristensen2941 Are you somehow under the impression that rushdown, zoner, and grappler are the only archetypes in fighting games? Despite none of them being mentioned by LK in the video? Also, did you not read the parts about how I find certain zoners and grapplers a lot less frustrating than others for fairly specific reasons, so it's not even really the entire archetypes I dislike? Because that was kind of the whole point of that part of the post.
honestly I would gladly take away from a grappler's power budget to make them more viable in other aspect, Like bruh tager does 3k with his command grab but he's so bad in other area, poor man doesn't have a decent anti air
Don’t do that, don’t go around calling the characters that you personally don’t enjoy easy brain dead scrub characters. If chaos doesn’t take skill go win a bracket with him. Shut everyone up who thinks that these tools have interesting counterplay and there’s some cool interactions that come from playing around autozoner moves, just go win a bracket w chaos and prove that you don’t have to think to play him. You can say “I don’t enjoy the interactions that come from this archetype” but like what benefit is there to saying that some peoples’ characters don’t take skill? Base concept of this video is kinda just dumb tbh
I'm surprised to have agreed with all of your takes here since you always say strike/throw is the most fair archetype which is some bullshit. Other archetypes I would add to the hated list are: - pixie characters - whatever tf Xrd jack-o is
I generally call the Zappa/Arakune/Phoenix Wright type characters "Unlock" characters, coz their fighting style revolves around unlocking the win condition. A.B.A is similar but her powered-up form has more of a built-in drawback than Zappa's "I get to win now" mode.
@@sanicboi9187 I think he's way less extreme. He's not as bad as Arakune without having his seals, but also in contrast, his seals aren't as much of an auto win condition as curse. He becomes much stronger, but not *that* much stronger.
@@HateSonneillonI think hyper centralized win conditions are by design non-interactive . He wants to feel like he has a fighting chance no matter the situation. The problem is hyper centralized character design necessitates that once the character have achieved their win condition the opponent shouldn't have much recourse because the character traded general utility for extreme but situational power. What lordknight wants is a way out once he has messed up, but the counter play against those characters isn't what to do once the hyper centralized gets their win condition; it's how not to be put in that situation in the first place.
@@SofaKingDead They're not the same because a hyper-centralized character can have interaction at least before the win condition is met. Like Potemkin, you have every opportunity to screw him over before he gets in range and even when in range, requiring him to play his neutral in clever ways to earn his win condition. HC though, he can pull out his gun and now you're dealing with that and your only interaction is to dash-block in. HC doesn't win as soon as he pulls out his gun but you can be stuck in that state for a while. Though I think we may be thinking of the same thing just calling it different names.
I feel like everyone has their characters/archetypes they hate to fight against or play as, and that's fine. Reasons could be well-reasoned and thought out like yours, or just "nah fuck that shit", it's all valid. It doesn't get scrubby til you start blaming those characters and their players for your losses. You can hate match ups, dislike archetypes, all that shit, that's fine. It's a natural part of a competitive game, I think. Just always own your losses and don't cast blame on the thing you hate, or the people who enjoy it.
As a Goldlewis enjoyer, I agree that chip damage as a win condition is pretty ridiculous. However, I think it stems from Goldlewis being a grappler without a command grab. He wins off of you doing the safe thing but most importantly off of you not knowing how to keep him out. And he does have a decent amount of mix. But yeah he wins off of you doing the safe thing which is really shit. It made more sense when he couldn't get karas since the situation wasn't as loopable without meter.
Hard disagree on Goldlewis being a grappler. There's a long and proud tradition of big body characters BEING grapplers, but Goldlewis is a great example of one that isn't. Big bodies are almost always strike/throw characters and, due to their strikes being slow/short range/low reward, their power budget is often spent on the throw side of the equation. Instead of making him a grappler, they gave him Behemoth Typhoon, which is a strike that gives him great reward, even if the opponent blocks it.
@@bluecarbon His gameplan is the same as a grappler down to even inputs but instead of having an unblockable (command throw) he has a move that does 50% chip. Idk it sounds like the same design.
I’ve always called the Arakune type characters “Nightmare Mode” Characterd for 2 reasons. Because they have a mode that’s a nightmare to deal with, and because my first time dealing with it competitively was in Pokken with Darkrai, and his is legitimately called “nightmare mode” and it’s pretty BS. At least Darkrai does actually suck without it
It's interesting that you say you don't like non-interactive character designs but then several of your recent mains are pretty non-interactive if they get their ideal situations. Millia loops guessing situations back to back, Gotenks team looped ghost oki, Teen Gohan team looped snapback fuzzies... personally I agree about not liking non-interactive characters, but that means I also dislike all of the above.
I use some bs too, ngl. Usually with setplay chars you have to win neutral + they have a lot of downsides at a system level (Millia HP is low, risc gauge is worse than other chars, builds meter slow) but even then it is still a top tier strat. Dbfz doesn't count since it is a team game. Team games are war.
Before I played Strive, I played +R just to get familiar with fighting games in general. Didnt learn much but I REALLY hated Faust. I dont think he had that many items out but the fact his moves were so fricking random just fuelled a fire within me. I was a Kliff main. Now I main Faust because, while I hated the +R and most likely the XRD version from obnoxious weirdly unsafe cross ups, I love item throwing and find his concept really appealing. Weird stuff all around.
I was thinking about that type that doesn't have a name. "Install win condition" perhaps? Like, it's not quite a Dragon Install situation but you do get extremely high return from powering up. Would Junpei, Labris, and A.B.A. Fall into this? Edit: I thought up a different name for this, stolen from Pokemon as they have the same concept: Setup Sweeper.
Dragon install is a completely different case from that, because even if you get the damage and special move buffs, your still just as likely(even more likely in many cases) to take an L, especially with Xrd Sol
ABA is more of a proper Install character, but I've seen "Alt Wincon" used for characters like Junpei, Yoshitora, Bang, etc. Though these tend to just have the alt wincon on top of being another archetype.
@@ahmedibrahim4997 I think it's highly held back by being a slow overtime comeback that you can only activate at low health in a game where damage is so high. It doesn't give him that same explosive comeback potential that Xrd DI gives Sol
Darkrai from Pokken Tournament is an example of a "demon" character that I haven't heard many people complain about. I'm not an expert on the game but what it does is that if he hits you with a specific move, Dark Void, he enters Nightmare mode which enhances his moves and gives him 2 new ones. Here's how he's balanced: - Pokken gameplay has you shift between a close-range Duel Phase and a long-range, zoney Arena Phase. Darkrai can only really use the move to enter Duel Phase, so this super mode enhanced his offense, not zoning. Yes, it means he can put the hurt on you but also you can counterattack him easier than if his zoning was made crazy. - Darkrai doesn't fundamentally change when in this form. He has new tools but they're an add-on to his existing ones. Not a whole new moveset like Zappa's Raoh moves - It's up to the player to make the best use of these buffs. Unlike Arakune whose curse just automatically puts the enemy on the backend of pain, here the Darkrai player has to know what his advantages are now. - The enemy can end this mode by hitting Darkrai enough to shift the phase out again. - of couse, Darkrai on his own is below-average at most things and has poor frame data on his moves. His trap projectiles and weird mechanics are meant to help him set things up so that he can land his one Dark Void move which is otherwise a very predictable attack.
Oh hey someone’s talking about my game Darkrai in addition to what was said rewards both players fundamentally for understanding phase shifting as a mechanic and how phase shift points rank up and change, as a lot of darkrais best routes in his night mare mode are designed to use as little phase shift points as possible to maintain the mode for as long as possible, while the opponent often is rewarded for using less highly damaging routes in order to maintain the phase when darkrai doesn’t have nightmare as his field is a much better position for him than duel without nightmare, or when darkrai is in nightmare it rewards you for knowing routes that will guarantee a shift to get him out of his win con as cleanly as possible These are mechanics that are extremely important to what makes pokken a unique experience, and darkrai as a character forces both players to learn and be rewarded for them even more so than regular matchups already encourage That being said darkrai despite being not a top tier and only a respectable high tier probably has some of the most polarized mus in the game cause of how strong his field is and isn’t against some of the cast, braixen and sceptile are extremly hard mus for the darkrai while zard is suffering for the zard and machamp pov against darkrai is probably the hardest mu in the entire game
The thing that makes Darkrai so much easier to deal with too is that with Arakune for example, you get cursed and you probably lost the round. With Darkrai, you’re in nightmare mode, and you probably only lost phase shift
Kinda surprised that LK didn't mention Old Testament. They are like the Arakune on steroid except they are the neutral god, can curse you whenever they wanted and Oki god as well.
@@NeoBoneGirl Arakune design used one aspect of Testament's curse though. Calimity Trigger Arakune should be your clue where he can curse whenever he wanted to (no bar needed.) Zappa used to suck on Raoh's balls in order to do anything significant until +R where all he needed was Sword and Dog. Also, Zappa's mechanic transfer to Platinum w/o the Raoh though.
@@zhaoyun255 Arakune is EXPLICITLY Zappa though. Arakune's bugs are literally the curse effect you get from Zappa's ghosts. Not to mention Zappa was still a good as character in AC when dog and ghost were the only good summons, but then he got buffed in +r to where everything but Raoh is good (which is also a terrible design for a character)
@@cloude8496 Brug, pre-Strive Testament was like Piccolo's yelling of DODGE and you still got hit anyway. You have to deal with invisible webs, trees and for the love of God, don't get Air grab or you will give them the Doll. Then he got the Curse mechanic with the skull projectile that was so easy to land with grab or even during combo. Spend 25% and you got a homing skull that even curse on block. When curse, the crow and the succubus began to do the insane pattern offense that Arakune was based off. Succubus will 100% guaranteed unblockable situation. And then Testament got poison status that disregard your Guts. Also, need I mention the godlike Badland Loops?
Wow that arakune type of style is literally cancer. Imagine dealing with hin over 10 years lmao. For types I dislike it is as follows and are my OWN OPINION; -Dhalsim zoning characters/anyone with 1 button full screen moves. Very boring to fight amd boring to spectate. These characters offer nothing to make the game fun amd will push away new players. Grappler characters aka Zangief T. Hawk Birdie Potemkin etc. You command grab tge opponent. They cannot tech the throw and you rinse repeat. You jumped? You get antiaired and put into the same exact scenario. You made one mistake and got knocked down? Command throw. This archtype is the 2nd most boring fighting style in all fighting games. Any character like Gold lewis. The fact you can completely suck at actually opening people up but get to guard break meterless and not get punished is absolutely insane. Nothing about this character type is skillful. Not attached to any archetype but DPs in general as people with crap defense can literally mash out of most scramble situations with high damage invinvcible move. I would love to see an anime with 0 dps.
I feel you. It's gotten to to the point that I feed off the rage of every DP character by just throwing them repeatedly every time I see the start-up. Grabs beat DPs.
I'm surprised you didn't have "Summoner" type characters. Not Gargos or Xrd Jack-O type summoners, but characters like Dizzy, Rise, Dragon Knight, etc. who toss out a tool that covers a ton of space (fish/laser/dragon) and then runs in behind it. Basically the aggressive half of the auto-zoner, though Mu-12 can definitely be both. Though other characters definitely have shades of it. I-no and Goldlewis both do this without meter in Strive, though neither are as effective at retreating to gain space for their "summon" (Note/Drone) as the previous examples.
Issue is it's hard to call that an archetype in anime games because generally a large part of the roster will have tools like that and have very different playstyles. For example, you mentioned how dizzy will often use her summons and run in behind them while being a semi zoner setplay character, but may can do a similar thing with her hoop and ball summons while being a very all around character, and you also have characters like elphelt who can do similar things with pine berry who are slightly more offence oriented. It's hard to call it an archetype then. And considering you couldn't even give it an archetype name that isn't just stealing the name from a different archetype that already exists the idea that this is an archetype isn't exactly solid.
Dragon Knight really isn't zoning with her Dragon - he doesn't cover much space until he starts spitting fire, and you can always hit him out of it if she just throws him out willy-nilly, since he comes right up in front of you to do the initial roar. He's a pressure and combo tool.
@@Zevox87 Never said it was, but she still does the same thing as both Dizzy and Rise where she can retreat to a safe space, summon the neutral tool, and then approach safely behind it as it severely restricts the opponent's options. It's the cornerstone of her kit, just like +R Dizzy's Fish. Uses the dragon to control space and cover her approach while she runs in. She even has it so that if you hit her, the dragon doesn't go away so you have to deal with the dragon directly. This means that even if it doesn't control as much "real" space, it controls an enormous amount of implicit space, since if you just move out of the way, you now have to hold its followups.
@@arcfieri5965 The difference between a character in this archetype and a character who just has this tool works just like differentiating other archetypes. Ryu may have a fireball and a DP, but he isn't a zoner in the same way Sagat is because his kit isn't focused around it as a central mechanic. Meanwhile characters like DK, Dizzy (especially +R Dizzy where you "program" two attacks into Fish), and Rise all center around this, having good movement speed and retreating abilities to safely set up their summon to approach with.
This video is really interesting to me, mostly because I feel very differently on a lot of points here (fuck item toss characters tho lmao). I personally don't really mind wacky chars with stupid wincons like chip damage or an unlock state as most of them do have defined weaknesses and things to exploit heavily prior to the "lol you're memed" point of the round. Like once I'm in the position it feels bad to be there but there's always the thought of "damn I put myself here didn't I." The chars that usually annoy me the most are the opposite lol. Really solid stable characters with no real drawbacks, even if they don't have any extremely dominant strengths are the bane of my existence. Especially if they're absolutely dripless like mai or es or something.
I think I understand. You dont like characters who's offense is a single player game and the way they lose is when they let another person play. Its kind of like what happens when rush down characters get in on you, but the rush down characters had to start the game in a situation where what you do impacts what they do.
In my opinion rush down characters do let you play because there are usually a bunch of options to reset to neutral and other defensive options in general. One of the things I love about playing rushdown is that I have to really understand my opponent. But that's just my opinion.
"I call it just demon" got me ngl. But yeah I agree with stuff doing neutral for you and having to respect it too. overall i'm fine with Mu's kit in general, but man her drive can be tedious to deal ESPECIALLY her laser that doesn't go away on it, that's meterless. I got hit out of a super that through the first laser and I got stuck in hitstop after I hit the mu resulting in me getting hit and losing the match. i'm still tilted to this day lol
I hate fighting grapplers and characters with oppressive moves that negate other character's gameplay hard, or have very unbalanced risk/reward like C-Roa, Rachel, Izanami, Yukari, May, Zappa, +r Testament.
A good name for the "Demon" archetype could be "Werewolf". Normal character until some condition (the full moon) is met, at which point they become ridiculous.
I miss playing Platinum in BB because of the RNG factor. Her items were more honest than the other 2 character examples but getting the missiles, bombs, and halo suddenly won you neutral. The pan and the hammer were godly mix-up tools (one had nasty cross ups and HAMMA FALL, the other was an instant overhead). Her only weird item was the jack-in-the-box but the opponent could deactivate it with dash + barrier stop.
It’s because Johnny is cool. Tho a real answer is I think people understand that it’s legitimately kinda hard to play them well enough for his cheapest to really kick it. While maybe elphelt is easier to play in general but arguably just as strong.
Does A.B.A fall into the Demon category or no? She is weak and needs a condition to be met to be really strong but she does not overwhelm you like Zappa or Arakune?
Definitely not. You can still interact with Moroha ABA on offense, while Zappa and ESPECIALLY Arakune is literally just "only I get to play the game now"
"I'm just really not partial to Characters type that beat you from not interacting in an extreme way" I mean safe setups also make you feel like you're interacting but no they meme you. Millia H disk knockdown setup is a demon character because, she can cross you up or feint then block If you challenge it with 5p the disc stays and she still gets the combo and another knockdown aka another repeat H disk. If you dont challenge it she gets to keep her pressure. she crosses you up or feint but presses button If you challenge it 5p or 6p her rose special can counter both If you dont then its 50/50 if she hits you high on air or low after fast landing The possibility of you not able to block the 1st cross up or feint also is high and it results in a combo and repeat of the situation. Safe setup lets you beat your opponent without interacting in an extreme way.
If you're talking about strive then she cant loop the good disc mixup without spending meter if you get hit by the disk. The interaction was her trying to get a specific knockdown like 2D. You're not supposed to try to hit her if she does a fake disc setup. You can fuzzy jump out if she doesnt meaty you.
@@imtiaze642 I honestly forgot about this reply until I got the notif for a like. It's no to the first one and yes to the second. The only meterless hard knockdown she has besides 2d is haircar which doesnt give you enough time for H disk to hit by itself. Ending the combo early doesnt change that. Same deal with her throw. For the second one, yes it can still be fuzzy jumped out of if she meaties. That's the point of a fuzzy jump option select. You block if she meaties and you jump out if she does anything else first like trying to go for the crossup.
The unlock characters seem to get a lot of hate, another good example would be joker in smash ultimate. He’s fun as hell to play because even without arsene he can still do cool shit then when he gets arsene all his moves kill
How is Strive Faust throwing either meteors or mini faust and instantly creating a huge snowball where he gets to pull more items over and over until he bricks 2+ times in a row more interactive than old Faust? Just because you can hit the bomb or get the trumpet? If you think old Faust bastardizes neutral, how does Strive Faust sitting fullscreen until he pulls meteors to do an unblockable crossup interactive? At least all of his items in Xrd but meteor and mini faust are self contained and don't let him throw more items so interactions are in a vacuum and good and bad RNG situations are less stark in snowball potential.
It's really nice to see what you're calling out and why here. So I will provide a quick list on what you are calling out: 1) Item caddies, for RNG element shenanigans 2) Demons, for wall-to-win 3) Auto-kiters, for long range abuses 4) Effective 1HKOs off of easy hits 1 can be balanced by, as you pointed out, making the item play fair for BOTH sides. While it should be an advantage overall for the item caddie, we do want ways to combat the items overall. 2 is significantly more tricky, simply by inviting character bias. Balance would really want to understand the demons' gameplay to give the most susceptible matchups tools to either break the involved wall, or simply survive. Careful if the involved gameplay is actually good, though, because the demons definitely should have their consistent threat in that case. 3 definitely needs to be called out and is the biggest plague against the Mighty Glacier/Melee Tornado hybrid. Even if the latter isn't suffocated by Unconditional Flinching, they still are going to have difficulty getting close to land that devastating blow. Any active kiting methods, in that case, would need checks and balances, preferably ones that encourage intel warfare. 4 needs VERY justifying context, of course. Now I can actually talk about 2 because Kid Icarus Uprising has a case of that in a Power that actually disrupts 3, and it's a Power that I have put on as a staple for Skyscraper Club. The Power in question that works as a Demon setup is Black Hole, which sets up a Black Hole beacon to vacuum opponents toward it where they can be easily hit by something like close range burst damage. Technically, it actually can be used at the start of a match, just that there's 2 charges available total (actually barring later Power regen), and also at the beginning of a match, you're not going to know what Powers the other guy has equipped. This brings up how there are 3 ways to beat the Black Hole charge directly when it's intended for dealing direct damage (note that it could be used for purposes such as clipping off Energy Charge): 1) *Hit the BH user to knock them flying and such.* This is brought up first for being doable by ANY setup as a surprise counter when it is doable in the first place without the higher power tier debuffs, but the BH user could be using an Armor Power such as Super Armor or Counter to stop the flinching from happening at all, and when that's the case and they're not mangling the execution, this idea becomes lethal damage or bust. 2) *Knockback immunity, which doubles as vacuum immunity.* This can be from move-provided invincibility or simply Armor Power usage. Note that Powers are needed to manage invincibility/knockback immunity that lasts long enough to pull the escape. (Unless you're using Evasion+, the most broken weapon modifier in KIU and there's a lot of imbalances with weapon modifiers to begin with.) This relies on the Power setup itself, but there are plenty of options for this method. 3) *Combat the attack itself.* Which attack gets involved is bound to involve the weapon type, particularly with how strategically committal Black Hole is, though mixup may be done, especially if the weapon type has multiple options that would be good enough--Skyscraper Club manages this, although still clearly favoring the Forward Shot over the Melee Dash Attack for damage. Melee attacks would be consistently dodgeable even with the rooting, although you'd be dealing with a probably exhausting endeavor because of successful distance closure anyway. Range attacks can all too easily be undodgeable without the mobility that Black Hole would have momentarily removed from play. Some weapons can manage enough Shot Cancel to defeat the attack instantly (Skyscraper Club's Forward Shot has 5 Shot Cancel for reference--don't ask me why it isn't 6 instead, but 5 is still fairly high), but for the majority of weapon types, since they won't get to manage this, there are Powers that can be used for this purpose, namely Reflect Barrier (you can guess why) and Meteor Shower (the Meteors have transcendent Shot Cancel), and arguably Pisces Heal as well for its auto-revival effect, though that is of course expensive. Just be aware that these Powers will have their blind spots, so setup versatility and flow are both going to be important. You can see how Black Hole can be used to shift meta to information warfare within the fast-paced combat, simply by busting up setups that try to kill fast and "safely" simultaneously, while still having reliability because its user can outmaneuver the countering Powers. Now you might think that the obvious counter would be to simply keep Powers in consistent reserve to make their usage reactionary. This might have been able to happen if Black Hole costed at least 10 spaces on the Power Grid, but 6 spaces instead of that definitely allows for better mixing in Counter, which is basically a risk-reward alternative to Super Armor that even pulls cost-effectiveness on the majority of singular Buff Powers, with the added convenience that it is synergistic with weapons like Skyscraper Club, guaranteeing a push with good usage. So yes, Black Hole, while inevitably a staple Power, is still inexpensive enough in that regard to be accommodated with ways to bust attempts to completely delay the win condition. I think we have a Demon that gets balanced well. I may as well see what you think anyway.
What's the key distinction between an item and a game/character where you can't parry/counter projectiles, where they throw a projectile and you're forced to either block it or avoid it? Aside from status effect stuff (which some projectiles can also have i.e. raven) isn't an item a glorified projectile? And depending on the game/system mechanics you might just be forced to block or avoid it no differently than projectiles in general? Projectiles are pretty common in fgs. I'm guessing it's the idea that items in general occupy screen space longer after recovering from using the move. i.e. you get to pressure behind or around it.
I like asymmetrical win conditions, and that's why chip damage is interesting to me as Goldlewis's gimmick and why items are interesting to me as Faust's gimmick. Magic: The Gathering has strategies built around making your opponent draw too many cards rather than just depleting their life, and that's more interesting than if everything came down to attacking the person's life total.
Milling often has dozens of counter options however, meanwhile half of the DNF duel roster can just go to town on you on block. Losing neutral on block is not okay.
@@MoistCheeks It is as long as you've got sufficient defensive options, which...yeah, DNF Duel might be too light on. The roll is a very situational mechanic, and you've got to be extremely judicious with your guard cancels.
Amane also basically can't really hurt you with chip unless he catches you with level 3 and he has BIG pushback so that's something to keep in mind. Goldlewis however has the guardbreak which makes his BT into a self sustaining apparently (according to a GL player I talked to) inescapable vortex with enough ressources. Which sounds fucked
@@Gensolink Nah, it's not self sustaining unless they're totally out of meter, because faultless defense is cheap and puts a gap in his offense after only a few BTs.
I've always called characters that you classify as demons install characters. Pokken Tournament, a game I dearly wish popped off as it should've, has a perfect example of this kind of character. Pokken Tournament is a very unique game where you shift between an arena fighter and 2d fighter. In ''Field Phase'' (arena fighter) your main goal is to hit projectiles which confirm into small combos and transform the match into ''Duel Phase'' (2d fighter). Each character has their own projectiles in Field Phase, along with an entirely different moveset. The character that is a good example of install characters would be Darkrai. During Field Phase, he has the basic gameplan of hitting projectiles, but in a slower way that other characters. If he hits these, he can confirm into a small combo and end with his signature move, Dark Void. Hitting this move brings the field to Duel Phase, and puts you into his special state: Bad Dream Rising. Before he activates this state, his Duel Phase normals set up these rifts that can be activated through the use of a special, Nasty Plot. (it's also a counter) Each rift has it's own direction it explodes into. During Bad Dreams Rising he gains new specials and the rifts explode immediately. This allows him better conversions, higher damage and more neutral options. He is very strong in Bad Dreams Rising, but has little to no options to gain Bad Dreams Rising in Duel Phase. However, he can still gain it, if he gets a good read or punish. I think what makes him so interesting is that in Field Phase, his goals are so similar to everyone else in the cast but those same goals get you your win condition. He dosent have to go for any unique approach options, he just does what everyone else does. Because of this, you hardly need to do any research or labbing and can adapt to him pretty easily.
I think pheonix is the most cursed of the "demon" characters. But she's not even weak. Regular Pheonix is a great character. She just dies in like 5 hits. But she has 5 bars and x factor your whole team could get blitzed in 15 seconds flat.
