The First Terrible Spider-Man Run 

“If I had a nickel, for every time a Batman writer was asked to work on spider-man, and it ended badly, I’d have two nickels. which isn’t a lot, but isn’t it weird it happened twice?”

Mate the thumbnail 💀

The thumbnail made me think Spider-Man had a villain named the ass blaster😂

The most hilarious part for me is that this was Kraven's last appearance before the Last Hunt. Like idk I expected some build up for that story but here Kraven just acts like a moron shouting, "curse you Spider-man" and the next thing you know he's running around naked in his mansion eating spiders, then buries Peter alive

I really hated how Peter treated Deb as a doormat. I understand that she was supposed to be the opposite of party girl MJ, but Deb was written to be pathetic. Then, she left the series due to mental illness, which prompted her to move back to the Midwest

THIS is the run that made me quit Spider-Man. Of course I was also 18 and off to college at that point, but I had been with it since I was 10 from the beginning of the Conway era, which was great. And then as you said five years of mediocre stories. I kept waiting for things to get better and they just didn’t. So I left comic books altogether, RIGHT BEFORE all the great comic runs of the 80s! So I missed Stern Spider-Man, John Byrne’s Fantastic Four, Simonson Thor, Miller’s Daredevil, Gruenwald’s Captain America, etc. All of that. Of course I caught up later, and I couldn’t for the life of me understand why Denny O’Neill was so revered by everyone. My only exposure to him was this horrible Spider-Man run in which he did everything that you mentioned. Then when I discovered his Batman involvement, I was astounded that this was the same guy. It almost seemed like intentional sabotage of a competitors character. It was AWFUL.

Look at this in context of spider-man IP and editorship. At this point SM appeared every Saturday morning in his Amazing Friends cartoon. Any 6-10 year old watching the show isn’t going to enjoy a comic with a big cast of characters and Spidey appearing sporadically. They want Spidey and action. Second this is under Shooter’s leadership. He stressed “every comic is someone’s first comic.” The only titles where he gave creators more control were those with a bigger vision, like Claremont/Byrne X-Men and Miller Daredevil. He rewarded writers, artists and editors that could deliver every month, even if it was uninspiring work.

Hoo boy, and so we enter the Debra Whitman era. I don’t know if it was intentional or due to writer negligence but Peter’s treatment of Debra makes him look like a flakey asshole. Whenever they were together Peter would treat Deb like yesterday’s news, and when they were separated Peter would suddenly become interested again and grouchy that she was dating other people. It was really toxic. Poor lady deserved so much better!

Just wanted to say, thanks for these videos. I remember having read scans of the entirety of ASM and parallel titles all the way up to the 90s ages ago, and this era in particular is all a blur to me, so I appreciate the refresher and the reasoning of why my mind had blocked it

Yeah, comics get more and more "stare-able" in general from the 80s to the 00s. Its not just O'Neil, the whole medium kinda went that direction

The only truly bad ASM run pre-clone saga

Yeah, if you thought the last run by Wolfman was lackluster, O’Neil’s run might as well be the NyQuil of Spider-Man comics. These issues feel so empty. There are no subplots, no characterization, no character growth, almost no levity, and an overwhelming feeling that pretty much none of his issues actually matter at all. Wolfman at least tried to make some important things happened, even if I hated those things (Jonah going crazy, Peter and Betty’s relationship, a fake-out death with Aunt May) and how they ended up transpiring. I have an irrational hatred of how little punctuation O’Neil uses throughout his run. It’s a random minor detail, but it always makes everything being said and thought by the characters feel less impactful. I really detest how Deb Whitman’s written during this period, particularly how Peter ends up treating her throughout. This isn’t just an O’Neil problem too. Most of the writers that used Deb tend to treat her as a very passive, anxious doormat whom Peter casually ignores and mistreats for no good reason. It’s annoying because it doesn’t read as an accurate depiction of how Peter would act (based on his growth at this point), and it’s just not fun to continuously read without some sort of resolution or change. Sure, Harry was in a similar sort of boat earlier on, but we knew much more about Harry and his life than we do with Debra’s (and we still don’t know that much about Harry). It’s a couple of years to get to why exactly she’s like this, and it results in one of the worst Spider-Man issues I’ve ever read that focused on a supporting character (Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #74 by Bill Mantlo and Al Milgrom). Their relationship especially rankles because this comes shortly after the ignominious affair between Betty and Peter in Wolfman’s run. Overall, in the time since Mary Jane got marginalized by Wolfman, the love interests (Betty Brant 2: Bugle Boogaloo, Deb Whitman, and Black Cat - definitely missing some minor ones) have been somewhat underwhelming, with even the best of the three (Black Cat) getting turned into a clearly unhealthy Spider-Man obsessive (between Wolfman and O’Neil’s runs). The villains are pretty hit-or-miss, which is shame because some of the villains are actually good (the Frightful Four, Hydro-Man, Kraven) on their own before O’Neil gets his hands on them. The big saving grace is that John Romita Jr. starts drawing Spider-Man during his run, and he’s quite good. I know that these reviews don’t cover the other two Spider-Man titles, but Claremont’s run on Marvel Team-Up (which comes a few years before this one), and especially Roger Stern’s Spectacular Spider-Man run (which came out at the same time as O’Neil’s Amazing Spider-Man run) are significantly better than Amazing Spider-Man at this point is his history. Marvel Team-Up is very much limited because of its concept from telling traditional Spider-Man stories loaded with character drama and humor from the supporting cast, but it does the superhero interaction (and the overt advertisement of whichever character is paired with Spider-Man) aspect better than any other period in Marvel Team-Up’s history. Ultimately, you can skip it without too much trouble, though. Roger Stern’s Spectacular Spider-Man run is more relevant, more coherent, more enjoyable, and it serves as a precursor to his Amazing Spider-Man run. It’s not an absolute requirement that you read it, but it is a fairly strong recommendation, if only to serve as something of a palate cleanser. More importantly, nice video! I can’t wait to see your review of Stern’s Amazing Spider-Man. From this point forward (for most of the 1980s, that is), Spider-Man remains anywhere from amazing (pun intended) to being good, barring a few hiccups along the way. Edit: I completely forgot to mention the introduction of Madame Web here. While it is a significant event, as evidenced by her appearances in other media (and her staying power as a character), I really dislike her as a character in Spider-Man’s world. She feels like an attempt to add a mystic teacher to the story of a character who’s mostly been about facing the travails and trials of life without an older guide after Uncle Ben dies (for better and for worse, which is part of the character drama). I don’t hate Spider-Man having a teacher or having a sidekick, but something that major for his new status quo needs to be handled with more finesse than his relationship with her typically was. This is also due to my bias from the 1994 animated series, since she always struck me as cold, pretentious, and mostly uncaring in that show, particularly in the scene after MJ basically “dies” Gwen Stacy style. She wasn’t worse than Anna Watson in that show, though.

Sandman: the super hero prostate doctor

7:17 Llyra is female Captain Planet 👀

I'm here for this video series! My Spider-Man collection includes the first five Omnis, covering through Andru's run, plus the Stern/JRJR Omni with the Hobgoblin. A recurring villain is an essential ingredient for a successful Spidey run. I also have the Kraven's Last Hunt Epic, which includes JRJR's return as a mature artist and the wedding of Peter and MJ, which is where my personal journey ends. Oh! And I have the Untold Tales of Spider-Man Omni because I love the callback to Ditko and this was BY FAR the best Spidey comic back when I was collecting monthly issues as a kid.

Other than the Black Cat appearances, the run from after 200 up until issue 238 were all garbage. Great review and yes Deb Whitman as a mistake from conception. Oddly enough, it was the Spectacular Spiderman run o 75-100 that gave us a 2 year character arc of value - until ASM caught up with Hobgoblin.... but then we get to the era of stretching out stories TOO LONG!

LOL. Great video! I was 10 when these books came out. In the height of comic book mania with Spidey my absolute favorite. A legit 11 duds in this run, with the other 6 read once, enjoyed and filed away forever. I never even got around to reading the space apes issue. I distinctly remember the Kraven cover art. I believe Spectacular Spider-man was absolutely crushing it at the time, and I’m sure the 10 year old boy me was having fun with team up. Great memories

Worst Spider-Man run was the mid 90's clone saga until that ludicrous one more day/brand new day story ruined the character permanently.

One thing I remember liking about O'Neil's run is that, even with Jim Mooney inking, the artwork improved. I didn't mind the lack of overarching villains, because when you see something like the Wraith in Spectacular Spider-Man, it feels like someone going through the motions of trying to do the Jackal again. Sandman wasn't hired by the Frightful Four; he was always a member. The running gag with them is that they're generally Wizard, Trapster, and Sandman, plus a fourth member who's only in that particular story. I was kind of pissed when Al Milgrom inked the conclusion of the Sandman/Hydro-Man story. And the Aunt May story you highlighted seemed to be written by Mike W. Barr, not O'Neil.

I'm shocked O'Neil of all people put out this work

Has anyone ever bothered to ask or interview O'Neil about his Spider-Man run? I've always been curious about the behind the scenes for this run specifically given how short it is and how he only did the plot for the last issue of his run. It seems rather strange to me like there was some kind of drama going on. I'd certainly want his thought process on why he wrote Peter to be such as ass in his run. A lot has been said about how much worse Peter is in this run and for good reason. I feel like O'Neil just didn't understand Peter or how to write him. Best part of this run hands down is the Sandman pic. Feel like the artist knew what they were doing with that.

I gotta disagree the dude intro’s madame web, hydro man. Gives us the colossal sandman depicted in SPIDER-MAN 3. The guy had a short run true but it has its iconic moments nonetheless.

I was GLAD to have the different style & change of pace

I've only read just passed the introduction of Hydro-man, and it's quite disappointing how lackluster Denny's run has been. Sad to see that it doesn't get any better.

I bet that got the old Spider-Senses tingling.

Well, there's one bright spot in O'Neil's run. Without Calypso, we'd never get this SHE... HAD... HER... VOODOO!

i get what u mean but still would take this run over any modern run aside from hickmans. i think the focus on spiderman just having casual stories with little implication is filler but still fun to read and interesting to experience. o neil is better than zeb wells dan slot some of dematis and other mid writers. this isn't a terrible run its just a stalemate.

Since when does batman not have family stuff to worry about? 😂

0:44 This is a nitpick but I think it would've been better to say Batman writer instead of DC writer because DC has a lot of characters and some aren't like Batman at all, you wouldn't say that Batman and Superman, Wonder Women, Green Lantern, the Flash, Aquaman, etc, are all characters where the same treatment will work because not all DC characters are like Batman. 9:06 Okay so I can't entirely hate O'Neil's run because of that... thanks O'Neil's run 😉. 11:38 And we all know that Madvocate would be repeatedly saying throughout all of his appearances... and if he... does the thing that Madvocate doesn't like I think he'll riot at this point (unless it's in character). 13:18 Oh, we all know what Madame Web is talking about in this run... that being how he was with her mom in the Amazon while she was researching spiders right before she died.

Thumbnail bout to make spider man a puppet

Did you read his Daredevil run? That was muuuch better! Hydro Man is pretty cool.

Lore of The First Terrible Spider-Man Run momentum 100

Tittle it "Ass Punch"

210 to 218 are all you really need the rest is added flavor the plot is within those books and to a degree 209 and 219 which are the dovetails. Heck; 220 is a fun but inconsequential moon knight tale just to highlight the character so maybe more people would buy the character’s solo book.

And I just found out you doing this entire series! Consider me hooked and subscribed! By the way, are you gonna cover the other mainline Spidey titles?

Great analysis. 🕸️🤘🏼😀

I think I agree with your conclusions. I always disliked the oneil run but was never sure why. He used unusual villains with odd motivations, which is something I usually like. I think Oneil did much better on Daredevil, which makes sense as I consider Daredevil closer to Batman in spirit.

ZAMN!!!!

I agree, this kind of run was 🙁😕. Thanks for explaining these things to us! Upsides: New characters & more depth to Felicia Hardy aka Black cat. Downsides: Peter being out of character, no Harry, Mj and Flash & SANDMAN HITTING SPIDER-MAN IN THE 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️. This maybe some of the things I dislike in the spectacular run.

I had collected Spider-man since #136, but I quit after an issue or two of O'Neil's run because it seemed like he was disinterested

Freaky ah thumbnail!

Maybe he just wasn't into Peter Parker. O'Neil had one of the best Iron Man runs. He had no problem using Tony Stark outside his armor and handled Starks alcoholism better than the writers before him and many writers after him. Also, personally I didn't care for Roy Thomas or Gerry Conway's runs on Spider-Man. I feel like Spider-Man started strong with Stan Lee, JRSR, and Ditko, bit fell off in quality throughout the 70s and didn't really become great again until Roger Stern and Tom Defalco' runs in the 80s.

I agree that an integral part of Spider-Man comics is the interpersonal drama between his large supporting cast. I also agree that Denny O'Neil didn't understand that. But the sentiment of "that's a dc thing" I totally disagree with that. What have you never heard of triangle era Superman? That era of Superman comics is all about the interpersonal drama of a large supporting cast. Have you never heard of post crisis flash? Particularly, the Messner-Loebs and Mark Waid runs? Only like 20% of those comics are about the flash fighting bad guys. The rest is about Wally's overbearing mother. Or his best friend chunk using his powers to build a successful business. Or the pied piper. Or Wally's roommate and father figure (since his own father is an asshole con-man) Mason Trollbridge. Or Tina McGee and her husband. Or the kapitalist kouriers. Oh wow, Wally wins the lottery and becomes a millionaire, but then he loses it all and then gains it all back and then loses it again. Oh no, Wally's joined a cult! Now he's working for the IRS. Linda Park is possessed by some Irish ghost!

Hey I don't know if you remember me but I'm the guy who said he was going to try to make my own version of your bookclub series but for ultimate Spider-Man but I've been struggling to make good progress and feel I don't have much to say about the book so here's my question should I keep working on a version for ultimate Spider-Man that will almost definitely do better but I feel I have less to say about or change it up to a different character I have more to say about and if so should it be one I haven't read all of their books for so I can get that first time reading reaction?

Hot take, this run sounds awesome to me. I appreciate the focus on Peter Parker's problems sometimes, but it's very easy to feel too much for me so a run focusing more on Spider-Man could be up my alley.

Look You're absolutely right that this is a noticeable drop in quality compared to the runs that came before. And when it was written it was definitely the worst run on the series. You've even successfully convinced me that I might have been too easy on it, as your character regression points are worthwhile. But, it's also worth pointing out that everyone has bad days and moments and character regression is something that happens in real life to a certain extent. This is definitely a lull period in the book, but maybe because I was already reading Big Time at the same time as this I didn't mind it so much. It's a quiet period before Stern and the 80s rocket forward into his golden era, and I think having a slower period is in some way helpful to making that more impactful. Even if that doesn't make these issues better, exactly. But really, compared to what we've been putting up with over the last couple decades Terrible seems too harsh. Like it's not even a bottom three run anymore, and the gap in quality between this and Mackie/Byrne, Slott, and Wells is a chasm (no pun intended that thing is stupid too).

I bought these issues off the rack as a kid and still have them. Loved them. But this was a totally different point in time . Years after the whole M.J. and Harry focus. He was not much about MJ for quite a few issues even before these you mentioned. Perhaps you needed to be reminded. They were now a year into the 80s. Your talking about this as though it was a transition that you witnessed chronologically first hand. I doubt that. Some of us did and were there. It was fine. So Spidey dated Debra for a while. Big deal. We didn't care. Give us the battles and we are good. Speaking for the 11 year old me at the time.

I can't believe you didn't like the wolfman run it s was so fun at the time In oneals defense, the supporting cast was pretty spent at the time. Their stories had been basically told at this point. the good news was Mantlo and Stern were doing some good stuff over in Peter Parker at the time, the rare point when it it was actually the better book. And IIRC i don't remember stern using the high school and college supporting cast all that much He basically used the Bugle supporting cast until Mary Jame came back into the book in the 250s or 60s

undoes? again, you are child coming along decades later, you have no take, you know nada

As someone who likes both Len Wein, and Marv Wolfman's ASM runs, even I have to admit that this run sucks ass.

I guess, that I'm in minority here, but I really don't like "peak" Romita Jr. art. In "The Man without Fear" art is nice, but at Straczynski's run it is not working for me. Everything is so square So it is hot take, but for my taste copying his father's work is best art that Romita Jr. did.

The criticism seems to be mostly just there was not enough Mary Jane literally and also too much dismissing, not valuing enough her previous role but the previous writer did break them up and write her out, I can see disliking that but it seems that wouldn't, shouldn't lead to thinking the whole run is outright terrible.

How have i never heard of Deborah?

i don't like Batman O Neil run!

Wrong. Relatability was not the initial draw of Spider-Man. This long lasting, pernicious misunderstanding is literally why not just Spider-Man, not just superhero related media, but so much of modern entertainment is wallowing in a reflective sea even Narcissus would be saying is too much.

I was 12 yrs old in 1976, and a huge Spider-Man fan from 1971 to 1978, so of course your channel nauseates me. I just dropped in to respond to your video title. I stopped reading the series when Ross Andru left. Most of Marvel started turning into recycled garbage after 1980, and things have only gotten morbidly pointless as the years have passed. The proper Marvel universe went away by 1990 and will never come back. It couldn't. Marvel (real Marvel-1963 to 1996-R.I.P) was a saga born in the WW2 era that played out through the Cold War era, and was created by the people of those times. The real Marvel faded with those people. It was magnificent though for 33 yrs. Thank God for re-prints! As usual, your videos have nothing for me, so I never watch them, as they poop all over my favorite comic series of all time. Regardless, best of luck and success with your endeavors.Obviously you love the idea of Spidey, so we have that in common. Ditko, Romita senior, Gil Kane, John Buscema, Sal Buscema, and ROSS the boss ANDRU, rule!

WTF, then whine about the prior runs?

you fucking stoned dude...NOT SO BAD AT ALL it lost nothing, long term readers like me didn't need the same shot from the same support over & over & over again, thanks very much. I don't even notice them missing NEVER go read awful Ultimate Spider-Man or anything by Hickman (if u must, his FF is ok, but that's it, guy is most overrated hack alive) your problem is you want to ignore peter parker: the spectacular Spider-Man & for that matter, marvel tales (reprints) & Marvel team up at the same time...and sorry jack, those all came out every month along with amazing at the time "first came out"...blah blah, stale take already by 1980, but MT has been giving ya all of it (and i dug it!)

@10:26:😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟😟