THE FLYING DELTA JAVELIN MK.9| I've Got Jet Phever (War Thunder Jets) 

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Delta wings put the centre of lift far back fro. The centre of mass. It makes the plane a big lever bar That means the aircraft is very stable at speed but to turn it has to 1st overcome that stability to enter the turn. This is why adding canards makes a big delta maneuverable: it forces the centre of lift to be further forwards. General rule of thumb, the further forward the bulk of the wing is the better she turns, hence the Zero

I like the Javalin. It kinda looks like a mini Vulcan.

Btw about the afterburners, yes we need blue and purple BUT also REMOVE the GOD DAMN flames from the NON afterburned engines like the sabres

That feeling when China gets 2 new supersonic jets before Britain gets any

Almost 800K mate. feels like ages! Congrats Phly !

The F4 phantom had in Germany the names "Iron pig" and "flying Brick". I think that describes rather good how it could maneuver......its fact IRL too that the mig21 turns better.

You'll be interested to know that the roll rate is the only accurate part of this plane's flight model. All the stats in the game are based off a report the UK made after an accident in a faulty plane caused a wing rip and from then on all speeds and turns were limited as policy despite the plane's ability to go much faster and turn far more tightly. The jav needs a buff ASAP.

They need to add the English Electric Lightning for British line to counter the Mig 21 and Phantom.

The F4 is all well and good. But what i wanna see is the F8 Crusader

THEY EVEN REMOVED THE UN-REALISTIC JET EXHAUST FLAMES WHEN NOT USING AFTERBURNER!!!

12:35 Phly: I - I hate NIGHT BATTLES ; Their all coarse, and rough, and irritating. And it gets everywhere.

The turn rate depends a lot on the center of gravity of the plane. Very simplified explanation : - If the center of gravity is more in the front (civilian airplanes, propeler driven airplanes...), the plane will have a bad turn rate and most likely less responding commands but will be very stable, hard to stall and will not loose much energy during turns. - if the center of gravity is in the back (modern fighters), the plane is EXTREMELY maneuverable, but you are unable to fly it without computer assistance (every move you make with the stick is amplified more and more until you'd crash). This is how Sukhois can make the Cobra maneuver for example. Regarding the roll rate (there is a formula to determine it) it mostly depend on the wingspan (shorter = faster), the size of the ailerons and your airspeed.

Gonna right this down here and now; I'm predidcitng that the F-14 will be added before an expansion to the BR ratings, making the Phantom and the Tomcat the same BR...

Speaking of wings, i cannot wait for the swedish tree with the Draken jet, it's so fucking beautiful

one of the advantage of the delta wing it's is roll rate, this is why the french use it so much. excellent roll rate, a lot a space for fuel and it's strong for high speed normally. and for the turn rate, you need a air flow around the low side AND the up side of the wing for making a good lift, if not it's a stall

Plot twist: F-4C gets the Wild Weasel upgrade package.

"I have a feeling that the MiG-21 will be more maneuverable" Whys that? Because that's what was exactly shown in Vietnam?

play the german floating square SF-40 Swhatever its called (with the 88s)

To answer the thing about the roll rate. You see the rows of little sharp things sticking out of the top surface of the wing ahead of the ailerons? They're vortex generators, specifically to re-engergise the stagnant airflow that pool at the tips of a swept wing, which helps keep the airflow over the ailerons moving and attached to the wing, so you have huge ailerons with very useful, energised air flowing over them. Hence keeping them very, very effective.

Straight wings (like on the P-59A) Generate more lift and are better for manueverability especially at low speed. Delta wings (like on the Javelin) are best for achieving high speeds. Hope this helps

My grandfather flew the Javelin back in his days as a Flight Lt. truly is a wonderful aircraft and thanks for showing some gameplay with it!

F4's shot down 100+ Mig 21's in Vietnam. After 1972 the kill rate was 5.5 to 1 for the USAF and 6.4 to one the USN.

Yep, like Ben Grogan said. Lots of stability in the aircraft. Same reason an arrow flies straight. All the 'lift' is at the back of the arrow, do it won't turn. If they extended the tail boom and put a better tail on the Jav, it would turn better. (Look at how tiny the actual elevator surface is compared to the wing. Both elevators could fit onto a flap surface. Whereas the tailplane is huge, causing even more stability in a straight line.)

Speed bleeding in the jav's turns is caused by the delta wing creating vortexes on the leading edge of the wing which delay stall departure, creating a higher angle of attack for a given lift coefficient meaning greater lift induced drag and thus more speed loss. Similar effect on very swept wings like the Mig 19 and its why aircraft like sabres and Hunters hold speed much better in turns. The actial bad turn is more a gimped flight model but is partially down to the high tail placement which causes it to be in the wash of the wing airflow.

There is a reason why the Firestreaks have a large amount of explosive mass, they had a proximity infrared detonation not contact (just another thing that is broken on the Jav). They really need to fix it should they ever add in the EE Lightning.

Is due to where the push of the plane is generated, the p51 generates its inertia from the front, making it more maneuverable as in a turn the greater air resistance is in the wings making the turn much easier. In the case of most jet fighters (delta wing ones) the lift is generated from the back as the elevators, thus it splint of gravity, inertia and where the elevators are situated make the turns less sharp, planes as the EF 2000 fight that by using canards

Yes Bunji, flaps have a limit on the speed they can be safely deployed. Sometimes, that limit is not just about structural failure, it can also be limited by the change in lift and drag that could cause stability problems if they are deployed outside the speed limits. Obviously, small flap settings have higher speed limits than high flap settings like landing.

Ey Phly, you should make pinned posts on each of your videos for people to put in their challenges/requests, I'm tired of 75% of the comments on your video always being people making challenge # 1000 in a row.

I'm gonna go out on limb and say that the big fatty wings on the javelin are able to use their big fatty lift to roll the thing as fast as it does. And all that lift is there to help with pitch, but the elevators themselves are kinda small so they aren't going to be able to apply much force. The other deltas usually have elevons that vector the massive lift for turning, but with the javelin, you're basically using the baby wing that is the elevator and stab for all of the pitch forces

Every aviator ever: Secondary integral exhaust Me: planus

I just did some reading on the Javelin, and the closest thing I could find in relation to it's handling characteristics, is an excerpt from a Historynet write up. Historynet states that it was an "extremely stable weapons platform". Stability and high roll rate do not tend to be synonymous with each other, I would say that this behemoth was likely somewhat cumbersome in regards to both turn rate roll rate. However, it was an interceptor by design, and it's missiles were designed to do the work, it wasn't built to engage in knife fights. I kind of expect the Mig-21 and F4 to be mixed up a bit in regards to handling. The Mig-21 should be a dog fighter, the F4 is more of an interceptor.

@PhlyDaily: Why the Javelin did not fly very well: it all has to do with *Aerodynamic Balance!* Had the Javelin had a space between Engines, much like an *F-14 Tomcat* (even without having a Swingwing), and a Lengthened Fusilage, and (my own favorite) *Active Forward Canards* you'd have seen the Javelin become spectacular!

Would be good to see the Lightning for us Brits now that the Mig21 and Phantom are coming.

Im guessing here but I think the problem with your turn is it's not actually a Delta wing. Your horizontal stab is mounted over your vertical, opposite to a traditional aircraft but with the same effect. So the point is your elevator is on your tiny horizontal stab with very little surface area. It doesn't have elevons like a Delta wing. It does, however, have massively large ailerons which is why it rolls so well.

To answer your query about the javelin's flight performance. It's really about wing loading, not lift. And yes, the javelin shoulda been hella responsive to elevator inputs and slow on rolling. I didn't do much digging, but usually on planes with a T-tail empennage the plane can be tricky to fly at high angles of attack and at low speeds. Maybe it just suffers from a bad case of compression?

Ben Grogan's comment on the delta style changing the center of mass explains pitch. the wings look symmetrical, which is used more for acrobatic aircraft, that wing type does not provide alot of lift, un-like asymmetrical which provides better lift. So symmetrical delta wing means pitch meh, roll gud.

1:05 wow beautiful jet plane :)

Phly play Naval Battels again theres so much more stuff since u havent played it like Heavy Cruisers. Long Lance torpedos. They are even adding the Admiral Hipper and the Mogami in Update 1.91 .

I watched a video on RU-vid a while ago and the guy was saying that jets with a tail wing above the height of the forward wings has better stability = less ability to pitch. There’s also other factors like the centre of rotation (or centre of pitch) that all affect airflow and the planes ability to pitch. Bigger wing doesn’t necessarily mean faster pitch.

the whole point of a stabilizer is to *drum roll please* stabilize the plane. So when you have a huge stabilizer then that probably means its going to help keep the plane pretty stable, and when you roll, pitch, and yaw the planes stabilizer is there to help counteract the unstabilization that rolling/pitching/yawing does to the plane rendering it less maneuverable in flight. At least thats how I remember the whole point of stabilizer and the wing size are supposed to work

Well yeah Phly, the MiG 21 was a better turn fighter than the F-4. Realistically speaking the F-4’s only advantages was its payload and straight line speed.

Rolls well because it has vortex generators over the ailerons. They delay the separation of laminar flow over the portion of the wing that they’re added too, thus having more pressure on those control surfaces. More pressure, better roll rate.

I do believe the further away the tail is from the wings center of lift the better it turns, because the force the tail push with is mangified by the arm (the distance to the pivoting point) the javelins wings are swept back so the wings most likely has the center of lift quite far back so even that huge tail just can´t produce enough force because of the lacking distance. I have no clue how flying wings work though like the me 163 or ho 229 which dosn´t have a tail at all

Centre of lift is far back and the elevators are tiny, hence the slow turn. Vulcan is agile because that had huge elevators, and the wing is just on another scale I think

It probably needs a flying tail like the latter F-86 to be able to turn tightly. And at those tight turns and high-angle angles of attack would maintain lift.

If I remember correctly the elevator had a very small angle variation, 1.5 degrees I think, meaning it couldn’t turn at all. It was a flaw in the design of the tail. It’s been 5+ years since I researched it for a school project so I’m a little foggy on the details.

*Phly looses sight of plane in the dark* This is why I hate night battles! They don't work! Uh...no, that's pretty much exactly how that works.

The Gloster Javelin was used in air combat during the Borneo Confrontation from 1962-66. Sources suggest that an Indonesian Air Force C-130 was shot down by a Javelin and that other kills scored against Indonesian aircraft went unclaimed to keep from inflaming the situation. This is also why it was called a "confrontation" instead of a conflict or a war.

It's much less about how much lift the wing makes and more about the leverage provided by the tail. Think of it like a seesaw. The farther back the tail surfaces are, like on the 59, the better it turns, where as with the javelin, the tail surfaces are quite close to the center of mass and therefore have less torque which equals less turning

Delta wings are good for going in a straight line very fast as they have very little drag for a huge lift and are much easier to make stronger than a regular wing and so can survive faster speeds. However when turning, the massive wing is then hitting a lot more air than a regular wing and so fights the turn more than a regular wing with the same area of control surfaces. The things I've seen some people say about the centre of lift being behind the centre of mass as a reason of this inability to turn, while true, only works if it is a very small delta wing, but this delta wing is beg enough compared to the plane that it still make the plane unstable like a su-27 just the wrong side and so hardly affects it compared to the reason I stated above. Also canards are used just because they add more control surfaces and they look really cool. This is shown in the difference between modern American and European fighters. America favours regular wings as they are more fuel efficient and better in a dog fight, however if Russia was to send a bomber to a European country they would have a lot less time to respond and so just want to reach the bomber as fast as possible, due to the fact everything being closer to Russia and so there would be less time to intercept from when the Russian bomber takes to when it reaches the target than America would have as America is further away so they have the luxury of having a MUCH longer intercept time than Europe.

phly been a long time fan. still look for you on the battlefield.. if your wondering why the plane will not turn at supersonic speeds is that The sound barrier or sonic barrier is the sudden increase in aerodynamic drag and other undesirable effects experienced by an aircraft or other object when it approaches the speed of sound. When aircraft first began to be able to reach close to the speed of sound, ... These difficulties represented a barrier to flying at faster speeds. hence the faster your go the more drag and harder it will be to turn. There is a video of Chuck Yeager explaining this, its always on the history channel when this topic comes up

After looking over the design blueprints of the Gloster Javelin it seems that despite that large wing there are no leading edge slats, this greatly helps turn performance especially at lower speeds which the Javelin typically flies at, it's wing structure seems to cater more to stability than turning.

I believe that the mig 21 will turn better as it is more unstable, while the f4 phantom was designed to be stable.

Basically, a delta wing generates lots of lift, is extremely stable at high speeds (supersonic or approaching supersonic) and offers a good compromise between high speed stability and low speed performance. It does, however, generate a LOT of drag, meaning that it will roll better than it turns, especially at high subsonic and supersonic speeds. Early generation supersonic and high subsonic fighters had reputations for being very unstable. Unstable = maneuverable in the combat world which is good, but when you don't have a computer auto correcting the airframe's desire to do backflips across the stratosphere because your merely human meat-body cannot detect or correct such events fast enough, then instability = bad. Thus designers tinkered with multiple designs that focused on stability at extremely high (for that era) speeds while still offering a modicum of low speed performance. The Javelin is one of those aircraft. Benefits of a delta wing: -Due to the large root chord, a delta wing combines low relative wing thickness with a sufficiently thick wing spar for a lightweight structure. Since a low relative thickness keeps wave drag down (a drag component which occurs only in supersonic flow), this makes delta wings especially attractive for supersonic aircraft. -The large root chord gives the delta wing a high internal fuel volume even at a low relative thickness. -The large root chord also provides it with a large surface area which helps to bring the minimum speed of the aircraft down. -With sufficient leading edge sweep, a delta wing produces vortex lift, so flow separation can be turned into a means of increasing lift. -A delta wing is naturally stable in pitch, therefore it does not require a separate tail surface. Drawbacks of a delta wing: -The large wing area causes more viscous drag for the same amount of lift compared to a high aspect ratio wing. Swept wings have a better lift-to-drag ratio (L/D) than delta wings. -High-lift devices like fowler flaps are hard to integrate into delta wings. The higher relative thickness of regular airliner wings allows to integrate large flaps more easily, and the rearward location of the trailing edge of a delta wing will produce intolerable pitching moments if such flaps would be deflected. Generally, the moderately swept high aspect ratio wings of subsonic airliners (for example) are ideal for flight at high subsonic Mach numbers. Delta wings are superior only in supersonic flight, and due to their good low speed characteristics they offer the best overall compromise for supersonic aircraft. Take for example the North American XB-70, a classical delta wing design. Note that the the canard wing, which has little sweep and a low aspect ratio is ideal for supersonic flight, provided it has a low relative thickness. The main wing of the XB-70 is a delta wing to keep the take-off and landing speeds relatively low and offers the best compromise of low and high speed characteristics. Also, the wing tips could be deflected downwards to improve directional stability at supersonic speed and to improve L/D (Lift to Drag Ratio) by using the waverider effect.

Shitty red flame gets fixed and removed from non-afterburners in 1.91!

I wonder if the fact that F4 needs the centrally mounted pod could bridge the performance gap between it and mig21. Remember, 21 gun is built it. It might be only 60 rounds, but with trigger discipline 10-15 will be enough to get a kill. So, mig21+missiles performance might not be far off from F4 with a gunpod+missiles. And notice how Gaijin now corrected F4 will only mount max 8x1000lbs - the last 3 from initial 11 would be mounted centrally. And the plane needs some sort of armament stock, so I think the middle pod will be reserved for gunpod only, maybe at least initially? Either way, If there will be no way to mount JUST the AA missiles, then the performance gap to mig21 will be reduces thanks to the pod. Once the missiles are out, the pod is still there causing drag (and it's a massive pod). And if mig21 pilot decides to go all in, and take no other armement, just rely on the gun - we might see some very interesting performance situations. Of course, F4 being fighter-bomber, will definitely not suffer much even if mig21 turns out superior due to the pod drag, because it will be EXCEPTIONAL at bombing bases and destroying ground targets. We shall see what China mig21s will bring to the table as well - they have a history of taking soviet/russian designs and producing superior versions. Balance dynamics at the top will be interesting. RIP Brits tho.

Phly it has a big horizontal stabilizer but the elevators are actually pretty small. Today's fighters don't even use separate elevators. The entire horizontal stabilizer moves.

The Javelin never was the plane it was supposed to be . ITs final version as shown in the game the FWA 9 did have afterburners but these were not like later engines, these were an add on and were an attempt to improve the planes limited high speed. The Fire Streak was a tail chasing bomber killer hence the big warhead. Hopefully if we get eh Lightning F2A or F6 we will get the Red Top all aspect missile as well as two 30mm Adens. Having 4 of these on the Javelin is a lot of firepower. There are a huge number of really fun "What if", british jets from this period or just after that would be really fun in this game.

(not a engineer...yet ) but the reason looks like to me is the ratio between wings and flap leans too far to the wing side so the front of the wing gets in the way when it tries to turn

It would be spicy if they added the TSR2 or the V bombers

Phly, i have a good challenge for you!! Attempt #332!!!!! Play the M48 in stock configuration. You may use APHE in one battle if you want (170 pen), but make sure to play one game with APCR only. No camping allowed (and not sure it would help) If you have fun during it, i can guarantee you are not doing it right . The challenge is to not lose your mind or uninstall right after. Good luck, you will need it. Requesting it before the sh!tst0rm of the stock syndrome

if you watched the official stream, they showed off the new jet afterburner effects, it looks hot. literally.

physics, delta wing aircraft are really good at high speeds, but less deliverable during turns, i can explain the physics but its 3 am and i just finished work but , but if you look at aircraft designed to cut through the air , you have examples of the f-16 or the su-27 they are designed with that in mind, but you apply a lot of drag on a big surface you would see it would be hard to turn it,

Use the Flak Bus 88 stock with HE shells only. Attempt 3

An interceptor aircraft, or simply interceptor, is a type of fighter aircraft designed specifically for point defense interception role against an attacking enemy aircraft, particularly bombers and reconnaissance aircraft, as they approach. Javelin is an interceptor, does not need big agility, it needs speed, climb rate, fire power. It is not build for dog fight with fighters or other agile fastmovers.

I just love how you are both climbing and accelerating at the same time while rolling non-stop. Weee weee indeed.

More surface area also means more drag, the balance you want is enough lift but also manageable drag at lower speeds otherwise you need more power to offset drag

My guess is that at high speed, those tiny elevators might struggle to make those big wings change direction.

I appreciate your thumbnails, Phly. They give this fat craving to watch your video, like the craving you get when you wanna eat a big F***n bigmac.

1. Not enough flaps on the inner wing. 2. Same With ailerons 3. If ailerons were mounted mid rudder or lower,and the whole thing was fully hydraulic like the F4 she would be a beast... Sort of like the Typhoon or Firefighter's older brother...

Phly, you are right. The rate of turning depends on a lot of factors, one of them being your lift:thrust ratio. If you are really fast but have little wingspan and/or control authority, turning will be hard as you have a lot of inertia to overcome. As a rule of thumb, the higher you lift is compared to your thrust, the less inertia it will have to overcome to turn, as the lift generated is also pushing in the direction of your turn.

0:17 OH YEAH OH YEAH OH YEAH OH YEAH OH YEAH OH YEAH OH YEAH OH YEAH

Loving the unloved please Phly Fairey Firefly I-16 type 10 Preferably with some historical information

the center of mass is far ahead of the center of lift in the large delta wing, the Fantasy aircraft, look at where the center of mass looks like compared to how far forward the wings are

gotta add canards for delta to turn better, or offset the elevators away from the center of mass as far as possible.

That T tail is part of the issue. Makes it very stable, but its position gives it poor leverage and it fights against the aircraft's natural tendencies

I'm really enjoying the Javelin now. Just take off, climb at 10° and get them Tu-4s.

For turning, if you slow down them you'll find that you turn tighter than at high speeds.

Lightning and jaguar are gonna be building the space station by the time these 2 new jets get to altitude

Watching phly vids while half drunk is 10\10 would drink again :D

7:44 you break my heart Fredo, you break my heart

So, phly, phan of the channel, and one of the things that helps a plane turn well is the elevator size and the back. And the thing that helps roll is the ailerons on the main lift wings. So this plane kinda makes sense viewed throigh that lens

The MiG-21 should have a smaller turning radius, but the F-4 should have a faster turn rate. Meaning, the MiG may complete a smaller circle, but the F-4 should complete a bigger circle, faster. It's pretty complicated, but the F-4 shouldn't have an issue dealing with the MiG in a turn fight, if the pilot knows what he's doing of course.

simple mach 1 is around 1200 km/h your pushing 900. That's not intended combat speeds hence why you loose alot of turning control. it was also designed as an bomber/fighter interceptor not really a dog fighting type jet. Meant to do what you were doing. Blast off from the runway, approach the enemy quickly and take them out before they know you're there.

Long wing creates problems with air "ripping" off surface at higher speeds. So large wing can give you amazing turn in lower speeds , but at high speeds like diving it can LOSE airlift.

That's a relatively small elevator compared to the rest of the plane. Its roll would of course be fantastic

I think the reason why it doesn’t turn well is because the only elevators are on the tail. Look at how small they are compared to to the ailerons on the delta wing. - which is why it rolls fast. - and turns slow-

I'm almost certain that if they added the f4, they're going to add the f105 and f104

Mig-21 is going to be pretty good, but I love America so I believe the F4 phantom can put up a really good fight.

Hey Phly the Javelin is probably pretty heavy meaning it has a greater wing loading per square foot of wing area than the phantasy jet. Also the elevator looks a bit close to CG reducing its effectiveness.

Challenge Request Attempt #8 Play any tank with an untrained crew. Suffer with the rest of us who don't have golden eagles.

this was ment for the intercepter roll , its targets were bombers so it had loiter instead

Don't know about the handling, but like the hunter, the wings are too weak. Both jets what recorded going supersonic in dives at low altitude. The javelin made the news for doing it over a city. In WT that snap before they get close.

Phly so close to 800k

rolls well because the ailerons take up literally half of the width of the plane and the amount of air being directed over the wings cant pitch well because the elevators are so high up compared to the main wings

I don't think the F-4 was ever really know for being maneuverable. Renowned for speed and payload, but not maneuverability. Which is why the Navy picked the F-14 with its variable geometry to replace it, fast but still maneuverable at slow speeds. Fighters today use leading and trailing edge flaps to accomplish the same thing.

5:50 Phirestreak Missile = Extra Phat Missile

The Javelin has large ailerons but a rather small elevator. So the large airflow goes over the ailerons and not the elevator.

Love the vids Phly, but I think it needs a little bit more in game sound. The sounds of the game are amazing.