Saint Irenaeus was the first (non biblical) Saint that knocked on my door. Little did I know that letting him in would desolate my superficial understanding of Sacred Scripture. Needless to say, when I became a Catholic (over 3 years ago) I took this Saint to be my patron Saint. Irenaeus, pray for us.
Don't know much about Irenaeus but i do intend to read as much as i can now. Not 100% sure about a God who is Love, created everything - including each one of us - and yet doesn't "need" us? Am i mixing up needs and wants? Is this not the heart of Thérèse of Lisieux's philosophy, her "little way"? And she is also a doctor of the Church. We are little, unimportant - and yet we matter to God! He has counted every hair on our head, He CARES about us! Why would He not be hurt/ bothered if we reject Him, deliberately disobey what we know to be right and not care that He loves us? He wants us to be happy - He needs us to be happy (for our own sakes) if we turn our back on Him - and it doesn't affect Him one way or the other - why, then, did Christ portray Himself as the Good Shepherd who seeks out the Lost Sheep? If our behaviour doesn't affect / upset/ influence God, how/ why should we ever have a relationship with Him?
@@marypower1261 Hi Mary, I am unsure if you are just thinking aloud or if you actually want some interaction on your questions. Here are my thoughts. The proposition we are prying into is as follows: “God doesn’t need us.” Saint Irenaeus isn’t in the boat alone on this proposition. In fact, it has been declared at Ecumenical Councils as well and by all the Fathers. When we pry into the idea of God “needing” us we run across some hiccups. Here are some things that necessarily follows if we hold a proposition opposite from what Irenaeus said. 1.) God needs creation thus making creation necessary and not via His free will. 2.) The effect, creation, is moving the cause, God, instead of the other way around. 3.) God plus creation would be a different God then God without creation. For if creation changes God (happy to sad etc) then God is changeable. This would mean He is moveable through Passions. But “Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” “I am the Lord I change not.” “Before Abraham was I AM.” 4.) God gives Existence to all things but creatures give nothing to God. God spreads the table for His creation and not vice versa. “I own all the cattle’s on the hill, what can you give to Me oh Jacob”? “Heaven and the earth is mine.” If we say that God “needs us” we are implying that there is something given from mankind to God that necessitates His creating of us. 5.) Love of concupiscence vs Love of benevolence. Love of concupiscence is a love for what I can get. Love of benevolence is a love that wills the Good of the other AS OTHER. Not for “my good” but for “your” good. God already has His Good in as much as He has His rest (which is the inner Trinitarian communion). He invites others to RECEIVE His Rest and His Goodness (I swore in my wrath they shall not enter MY REST). He doesn’t RECEIVE anything from us but graciously gives to all. But instead He tells us “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.” God told Saint Augustine “Eat Me and you will change into Me and not I into you.” Now, just because God doesn’t “need” us doesn’t mean we are not important to Him. On the contrary, all of His creatures are reflections of and proceed from His Inner Trinitarian Love. It is from God that all things created came from. And it is to God that all things return. He desires that all things return to Him who is the source and summit of their goodness and that it return for its own goodness and not His. Not that they return by giving Him something He needs, but rather they return by Him giving them something they need. Grace, Faith, Hope, Charity. “Participation in the Divine Nature.” Not for His Good do we do anything. But rather, for our Good He gives to us. Augustine said it like this “you crown your own gifts you placed in us.” We are raised up because He wills our good, being, Himself. Now, our behavior has no effect on God anymore then a rock thrown up to the sky can hit the clouds. The only person effected by the ill behavior is the one who threw the rock and it falls back upon their own head. God is Good. All the time. All the time, God is Good. “I am the Lord and I change not.” So then what does change? Man, who are on a spinning earth that at one time is in the light and the next is in the darkness. The light never stops shining and being the light, but it is the man who’s ways spin like the earth turning their back on the unchanging light. In the ways above, I hope this shines a little “light” on the mystery. Though, it’s always hard to pry into the intelligibility of what is unseen.
I really appreciate Bishop Barron. He’s been a wonderful influence on me along my spiritual journey. God bless him and everyone at Word on Fire ministries.
@@loveandmercy9664 In all things we are putting our trust in Jesus our Master and Lord, aren't we? Let's keep doing it without giving in to fear of any kind. Thank you for your valuable presence☆ Stay blessed☆☆
"The Glory of God is the human being made fully alive" - St. Iraneus, Against the Heresies. This has the quote that I've lived by since the start of the pandemic. It has kept me spiritually vigilant and faithful throughout 2020. I wouldn't have understood him fully without you, Bishop. Thank you so much, Iraneus and Bishop Barron!
Bishop Barron - THANK YOU for all your thought-provoking content. Your online presence kept me from despair throughout the pandemic from 2020 to the present- including the negative Catholic RU-vid influencers who constantly put down Pope Francis, disparage your ministry, while chasing division/drama & cashing in.
" It is not you that shapes God ,it is God that shapes you If you are the work of God ,await the hand of the Artist Who does all things in due season. Offer him your heart , soft and tractable and keep the form , in which the artist has fashioned you. Let your clay be moist,lest you grow hard and lose the imprint of his fingers." ( St. Irenaeus , Bishop of Lyon ) Love this Saint, whose " Against Heresies". Looking forward to this show , Bishop.
I finally discovered God and I am ravenously devouring all of this material. There is so much depth, so much to learn, so much to ponder, so much room to grow. God truly is infinite good. Nearly every night I want to cry with joy when I think about the unlimited depth of God. I am just scratching the surface. I feel like there will never be enough time in my life to satisfy my thirst for what God can offer...I guess that it is a good thing we have an afterlife :)
I hope that this is a good sign of things to come between the east and west. I really hope the Orthodox and Catholics can come together the world need a united church now more than ever.
That would be great. As an Orthodox Christian myself we could learn so much more about our faith by coming together. There of course are many differences we would need to sort out of course.
Bishop. I’m new to your channel let alone introduced to catholicism. The heritage of my family birthing Mormonism is huge and my parent who proclaims heresy is extremely difficult to move up as an individual. I just want to confirm I believe the Catholic Church is the true church. Not because of every building the church is, but because her people have been the church since the beginning and dawn of time. The heresy I fight and the fake conditions I am embedded to can only celebrate this saint as a doctor of the church. Thanks for the heroic efforts you provide and God bless. I also reject Mormonism as I have had a 17 year long battle of schisms.
I can't wait,thank God for people like u Bishop Baron,we Catholics and others ,if they so desire, can learn so much,oh how I love to learn about our faith. These sorts of things should be taught in religion classes in CATHOLIC schools.
"But there are certain doctores /teachers that are so insightful, penetrating, so rich that the whole church should sit up and listen.” Hmmmmmmm.... I wonder who else that can also apply to???? Anyone?? :-). We are certainly blessed to be witnessing a future doctor of the church! God Bless you, Bishop!
After 25 years of constant study, I still feel like a neophyte and Ireneus is still someone that I need to read! Like the bishop, I also thought that he was a doctor of the church. Thank you Bishop Barron
For those looking for an entry into Irenaeus, I can highly recommend _The Scandal of the Incarnation_ from Ignatius Press. Selected and introduced by Hans Urs von Balthasar, these texts (largely pulled from Against Heresies) make it clear why Irenaeus deserves the title Doctor of the Church, and why he's so relevant for us all to read today. Coming in at just over 100 pages, it is the perfect guide into his genius.
His complete writings are on the web. Also, St Ignatius, from the same time period. Also, Justin Martyr and Polycarp, who wrote on the way to the lions. Very enlightening to see how the very early Christians worshipped, and their beliefs.
I am an ex-Mormon. There is a lot of Gnosticism in Mormonism, and they tend to turn to Gnostic works to justify their beliefs and to "prove" that their teachings existed in early Christianity.
I am an ex mormon, and i don't know what you to what you are referring. I've literally never heard a Mormon leader quote a Gnostic text. Can you clarify?
"Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen" My beautiful sweet Jesus, my eternal love, please bless Bishop Robert Barron and keep him safe.
From my experience THE COURSE IN MIRACLES, a present day New Age writing has a Gnostic tone. I have lost friends to the Course, folks who were local Catholic leaders. It saddens me greatly. Thank you for this discussion on Irenaeus.
When I was dabbling in the New Age stuff all I kept thinking is that Jesus, the real Jesus, was like the being that they wanted to be, but that they didn't want to acknowledge. Oh, that great deception of being spiritual, but not religious. Today, I will say that the reality is more like Satanic, but not honest about it. Then I eased back to Christianity through an ELCA Lutheran church. Or at least I thought. . . But, except for the appearance, it's still the same lie. Then I read the Bible... I very quickly went back to the Catholic Church and the confessional.
Congratulations to you Brandonr with the new cow . You chose the best. May your homesteading flourish and all your animals around your family. Thank you for sharing this very telling detail. A real and very good suprise.
Thank you for an excellent addition to your word on fire ministry! I am currently reading an introductory book on the founding church fathers and the two that really speak to me so far are St Polycarp and St Irenaeus. What perfect timing for this video to be released!
For Catholics, Irenaeus is still as much a living part of the Church as we are and the guy sitting next to us in the pew.. One body. One Lord. The Body of Christ. As one with us as the Lord Himself.
Teilhard de Chardin and Richard Rohr's cosmic Christ is deeply rooted in st. Irenaeus recapitulation theory. "Did the Divinity need to wait for Ethnic Orthodox, Roman Catholics, European protestants, and American evangelicals to appear before the divine love affair could begin? I cannot imagine" Fr. Richard Rohr
19:07 "When God gives me a share in his life, now I can love in that disinterested way...through grace I can share in the divine life." -Bishop Barron [Cf. CCC 460] I recommend Irenaeus of Lyons: Identifying Christianity by John Behr. Interestingly, Behr shows that Irenaeus's famous quote, "The glory of God is a human being fully alive," is in fact in reference to the martyr. God bless you, Bishop Barron. (Congrats on your cow, Brandon.)
I completely agree with you. He is in the process of translating all of Irenaeus's works; he says it will take about 10 years. Love that man. God bless☦️
Very much enjoyed this interview... always learning more and more from the bishop's wisdom. And yes, as Saint John Paul II said... "we breathe from both side of the lungs", and also about the evolution of the Christian faith... they are insightful people that have visions... visions of cosmic importance that do and could do more to contribute, to the Glory of God. Thanks Brandon Vaught and Bishop Barron.
Wonderful discussion. So happy to hear about Iranaeus. In the modern world this does make a difference. Philosophically the age old dualism of body and spirit is resolved from an organic approach that recognizes the significance of the body without having to postulate ύλη or some underlying substrate or "matter". AN Whitehead takes this view, reminding us that it is a construct, useful for science but not "real"! Trees are real, things are real without requiring a substrate. His Organic process approach also resolves the difficulties mentioned about 2 gods with the consideration of a primordial and consequent nature of God -- consequent not so much after or because of the fall but after the incarnation. Good to go back to reading Iranaeus with some of these concepts and difficulties for resolving the age old philosophical problems.
@33:00 Without the one who is, I am not. 'I am your life, the Lord says, Those who walk with me abide in me.' My certainty is in the Almighty, whose light shines the path out of every uncertainty.
Thank you so much Bishop Barron for your very informative and interesting facts about St. Ireneus. He is my patron saint because I was born on June 28 also
Erasmus of Rotterdam published the first edition of St. Irenaeus's writings in 1526 at the beginning of the rise of the Protestant Reformation. He tried to point the Church to its sources.
your crass ignorance of Chyrch history, biased and blind fanaticism have made you a miserable being!!!! Saint Irenaeus is a Catholic Saint, the Church does have the writings from the very momennt he wrote those!!!!! how do you say it was done after 15 centuries???? who kept those manuscripts????idiot!!!the church does not swerve or change!!! 20 centuries and continues guided by the Holy Spirit!!!can you mention just a single Doctrinal error?????
'Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself'. - Philippians 3:21.
Descartes’ « I think, therefore I Am » now knows a post-modernist twist: « I think, therefore I am what I think I am ». Those words are not mine, but my memory cannot bring up to my mind its true author. Levis Shalim
Thank you Bishop, for explaination about St. Iraneus.Maybe one day would you explain the mysticism and gnosticism in catholicism. Or maybe list the book that explain is a simple way. Thank you Bishop.
At the risk of being labeled a heretic myself .... I'm listening to a lot of Rudolf Steiner these days (REALLY not easy to follow: the linguistic traps from his German heritage compounded by the post world war ONE timeline are huge and easy to fall into) and I actually hear in Bishop Barron's speech, here, a good reconciliation with many of Steiner's complaints.
DEAR BISHOP l am sorry l am getting tired a little for surching for more and more saints.I would bee happy wih angels guiding mee into heaven in earth and to bee able to find spiritual life what jezus love .
To you reading this, you are one prayer away from an amazing turnaround of all your problems, the storms in your life is only temporary but the blessings and power of God is everlasting. Amen
The fact that Jesus spoke about that He must return to the Father in order for the Comforter to come to you demonstrates in a subsequent back door way that the Holy Ghost proceeds also from the Son. And all correct Christians ✝️ know that all sin and that nothing unclean enters heaven that along with Maccabees and the new testament points definitively towards Purgatory 🙄 Thank you very much
I'm discoverying this great Father of the Church, whose importance these days are tremendous! Mother Veronica Berzosa also speaks about him a lot! Thanks Bishop Barron!
Thank you for this book review! I wonder how the believers in Gnosticism would interpret the bible passage 1 Cor. 15:45 far more often in comparison to how someone like St. Irenaeus would interpret it. Would they for example understand the name Adam in both the old testament and the new testament in 1 Cor 15:45 to be closer in meaning or farther apart in meaning only while understanding the meaning of that passage which reminds how different Jesus Christ's relationship with his father has always been like compared to what the first Adam's relationship to his creator was like after his fall when then he alongside his wife Eve too both were in need of salvation as we are reminded as being a fact in 1 Cor 15:45? I don't understand how anyone calling themselves Christian could believe that the Lord in the old testament was any less than during new testament in our living bible.
I was taught by (St.) Polycarp who was taught by (St.) John the Evangelist (a.k.a. John the Apostle, who in turn was created and taught by His Imperial Universal Majesty, Jah Jesus Christus! ......the rich tradition of apostolic succession). - St. Irenaeus.
I have always loved Iraneus. I was asking for a very long time why he isn't a doctor yet. As far as I remember, he was the one who coined the term "Orthodox". I agree that if Iraneus was not able to combat Gnosticism, we would not have been the same. Among the Church Fathers, he is one of my favourite go-to.
Orthodox is only an accessory name invented in the 4th century....Catholic has always been the Divine name of the Church that has supremacy and still retained even today.... ST. AUGUSTINE "The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion." -----ST. AUGUSTINE, CHAPTER 4, AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANI.
I am not sure what you are trying to arrive at with the comment. The word "orthodox" means the "correct teaching". It was meant to combat gnosticism. What it means is if you are a heretic, you are not an orthodox. Obviously, there was a need for the term in the 4th century. People are being martyred for following Jesus. So, if you are risking yourself to be killed, you might as well die for the orthox faith. And even now, I am sure you would rather be martyred than profess anything but the orthodox faith.
@@nasugbubatangas the correct name of the church is CATHOLIC..... this is the SUPERIOR name of the Church.... ST. PACIAN " But under the Apostles, you will say, no one was called Catholic. Be it thus. It shall have been so. Allow even that. When after the Apostles heresies had burst forth, and were striving under various names to tear piecemeal and divide the Dove and the Queen of God, did not the Apostolic people require a name of their own, whereby to mark the unity of the people that were uncorrupted, lest the error of some should rend limb by limb the undefiled virgin of God? Was it not seemly that the chief head should be distinguished by its own peculiar appellation? Suppose, this very day, I entered a populous city. When I had found Marcionites, Apollinarians, Cataphrygians, Novatians, and others of the kind who call themselves Christians, by what name should I recognise the congregation of my own people, unless it were named Catholic?" ----ST. PACIAN OF BARCELONA, LETTER 1, 390 A.D.
@@pinoysarisari7374 Was there a claim in my post saying otherwise? The word "orthodox" refers to the teaching. And any Catholic should be claiming that they are following the orthodox faith. Because if the teaching you are following is not the orthodox faith, it only means one thing, it is not correct.
Is Newman being adequately translated and read in other languages? I hope his impact isn't limited by writing in English because I agree he is Doctor material.
At the start of this day i discovered Gnosticism. I asked to myself and to God: "Is this true? What if this is true?" At the end to this day i ask: Who would ever belive in this thing?
@Dan Carmen The sticking point is still the 'filioque' clause in the Niceno-Constatinopolitan version of the creed. Orthodox theologians have no apparatus for 'the development of doctrine', claiming 'Rome changed the historic faith' with the addition of the 'filioque' clause [that is, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son" (filioque)]. The Catholic Church has issued a statement that the Catholic and the Orthodox understandings are more similar than dissimilar and have showed an openness that the Catholic Church's position is virtually same as the Orthodox statement that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "THROUGH the Son". But full ecumenical relations regarding these developments has yet to be achieved. "J B"'s comment below that it has something to do with 'nouvelle theologie' is completely unfounded'. THAT issue is a purely CATHOLIC internecine squabble between two camps within Catholicism: traditional Thomists (historically represented by Father Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange) and the 'nouvelle theologie' theologians (Yves Congar, Marie Dominique Chenu, Henri de Lubac, Maurice Blondel, etc). That has NOTHING to do with Catholic and Eastern Orthodox ecumenical relations, which mostly center around the 'filioque' clause in the Nicene creed and the role of the papacy in the Church.
@@QuisutDeusmpc thanks for the nuanced reply :) Personally, even though I am a member of the Catholic Church, I prefer to say I am “Christian” rather than “Catholic” when speaking with non-Christians. It seems to me that emphasising the difference between the two is less important than our common identity as Christians in these moments. I don’t want to undermine the differences, they matter, but surely in these times what makes us one must be prioritised. I may be wrong , but I don’t think I’m “ a Catholic” Rather I am “ a Christian”…who belongs to the one, holy, apostolic Catholic Church.
@@dancarmen9994 I see your point. The western, secular world has become bizarrely unmoored from anything that resembles its Judeo-Christian origins. As far as I am concerned observant Hebrews, faithful Catholics, eastern Orthodox and believing Protestants should be joining together and celebrating what they hold in common, rather than fighting over what still separates them. I do the same thing When I am talking to Protestants, particularly rabid fundamentalists or fervent evangelicals, I call myself a "Christian" in order to avoid a conversation which would usually devolve into defending the fact that Catholics don't "worship" Mary, Sacred Tradition doesn't contradict Sacred Scripture, Apostolic succession and the papacy are biblical, etc. Out of curiosity, do you attend a Latin rite or eastern rite Catholic Church?
How can the two be unified when we Orthodox are not unified ourselves. The Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with the Oriental Orthodox and Moscow no longer recognizes Constantinople.
Teilhard de Chardin and Richard Rohr's cosmic Christ is deeply rooted in st. Irenaeus recapitulation theory. "Did the Divinity need to wait for ethnic Orthodox, Roman Catholics, European protestants, and American evangelicals to appear before the divine love affair could begin? I cannot imagine" Fr. Richard Rohr
Irenaeus as doctor of the church is needed today. The reformed theologian Dr Peter Jones also warns us about gnosticism. *Peter Jones: A Gnostic Gospel* + *Unscrambling the new world view: Dr Peter Jones*.
Another interesting episode, thank you Bishop Barron, and Brandon! Questioner: Nothing in current science proves there is no God (and there continues to be lots of evidence), so why not?
The Latin Church and many Protestant Churches have embraced Pelagianism. However, until the Jansenist, Rome affirmed the idea adopted by Calvinists, of irresistible grace and unconditional election. So, if Rome is infallible how does one explain this shift in doctrine?
excuse me , but Pelagianism is rejected by West....Rome follows the Council of Orange 529 A.D. , which settles the matter on PElegianism and Semi- Pelegianism and Rome REJECTS the Extreme Augustinian position of Calvin.... Rome affirms SEMI- Augustinian position, where Grace of God INITIATES , while Human Free- Will simply responds to the Initiation of God's grace....
I wonder what Bishop Barron would have to say about the current craze of non-duality (derived from the Upanishads, mostly), which had me in its spell for about fifteen years, and how it relates to Gnosticism. It seems that non-duality, of which the basic tenet is "the world doesn't exist -- it only appears, and never becomes real," is Gnosticism to a T. Non-duality is so destructive to the human spirit, as I can attest, because it says that "there is no person," there is only this consciousness here in which a fictional person "appears." It's a really easy out, if one is looking for an escape from the pain of being human. Unfortunately, joy and love get thrown out with the bathwater, too. Along with hope, beauty, striving, and all the other goodies that make human life so precious and rich. Thank you for the great episode!
I have been noticing a trend of these (Basic tenet concept of the world) does not exist increasing and I see multiplying both in popularity and kind. I happened unhappily upon solipsism during an episode of bad anxiety when I attempted to turn to philosophy to help me better reason my way out. Bad philosophy and panic mix about as well as one would expect. It is strange that I happened to read about it again on a whim and this and related topics have been showing up in Catholic media I have been watching. If I can contribute at all, I am happy that the Lord makes use of my suffering for good. Over time it has made me see that at least on a spiritual level this trend is not surprising in a culture and society that makes every effort to remove God and put human reason on the throne of truth. It is unsurprising that when put on a higher station than it is meant for that it starts failing and things falling apart under it. Does this make sense or am I grasping for causes?
@@LostArchivist "Bad philosophy and panic mix about as well as one would expect." LOL. Yes, I found that out the hard way, too. What you say makes sense. Beliefs that evolved for an Eastern mindset and culture don't translate well in the West, where we immediately turned them into a way to escape from reality, and a way to deny the existence of God.
@@annette4660 It is because the Lord wishes to tell us what it is we are leaning on our own understanding without Him. We are nothing, nothing exists to hold fast to, nothing secures us, all fades away and darkens. Without Him, we, become blind, question the foundation of all things, come apart, wither, disintegrate, fade away, and ultimately die. This is why these holes in logic are now appearing among those who think themselves learned and those decieved by their constructs. Atheism, solipsism, nondualism, nihlism, moral relativism. All is questioned for the academy has lost the Divine Logos, without Our Blessed Lord, espescially now after He has been known, only privations can come ultimately.. Pride blinds the eye of the soul. The ancients did not suffer this as we see now because they could not commit the great sin of knowing for certain the Truth and rejecting Him for their own machinations. They could know at best in vague shapes, espescially outside of Israel. Now, there is no such excuse, save for those caught up in the obscuring by others, and those we have failed to inform. The closer one is to the Light of Light and withdraws, the deeper penetrates the void within where He once shined. Thus as the Lord is escorted out of the lives of the nation, He withdraws His benefits as warning.
I'm unclear on this. The Biblical Canon was only officially established in approximately 400 AD. So how can Iranaeus be considered 'biblical'? Was the canon already mostly decided upon in the 2nd century?
I LOVE your explanation of this St. Irenaeus, Bishop But strangely, as I was listening to you and Brandon talking about the 30 plus Doctors of the church, the Holy Spirit within me interrupted and revealed.......They were judged just like you and all the least of your sisters and brothers. That they were esteemed so highly and placed them in the high Pedestal according to the category this world wanted to place them, but they were all judge like ALL human beings/like us.He continued.....what human praised and approved is not final , for what i praise and approve will be according to what's written in the Book of life. Personally, I like how you spoke about the Gnosticism in this generation and compare them to the way Irenaeus understood during his days. I guess, we could say that ....Unlike those who are the " work of God/ those who let god be their Artist "", who let God's artistic hands mold and shape them, those who practice and define gnosticism made themselves as their own " Artist" . They shaped, molded and traced themselves according to how they wanted themselves shaped, traced and molded and sadly, the result , very unpleasant in God's sight and can not be displayed in his heavenly temple. I wished i could help the caller's friend whose doubting God's existence.Listening to so many people who are Christians, even Catholics, who are still doubting God's presence ( esp. the Eucharist ) can be frustrating , because I wanted so much to tell EACH of them how REAL and ALIVE he really is. Thank you so much, Bishop and Mr.Vogt for another great discussion. I watched this right after coming home from work.A show worth coming home, for sure. Thankfully, Linda Worsham
