@@comedial6829 Many people who have been playing her since she was a goddamn support character. There may be less Sym mains than other DPS, but they are very loyal to Sym.
@@comedial6829 Alright just because *you* dont, doesnt mean other people do. She's a hero, just like every other hero in the game, and deserves the same amount of attention.
@@comedial6829 Except a fair bunch of people do. And many others want to care for her, but she's been treated like trash from the start, which makes it hard for people to invest in her. If they made her more viable, more people would want to play her and care about her. And that's why talking about her matters. I'm not a Sym main at all. But I like her playstyle and would like to play her more often if she was more viable.
I would say, the main thing I want from any meta, is that there are no hard counters where you go off the overview screen and see "oh they have X hero, so I should just swap nobrain". I think Seagull touched on this example of Tracer vs McCree, where McCree in theory counters Tracer with his flashback headshot - but it's still a skill counter, and a good Tracer can blink around it and gain an edge when cooldown management and mechanics are on point. So in essence both can skill counter each other when played properly, and this philosophy is the best possible matchups you can get in a game like Overwatch. On the other hand you may see the enemy has a Sombra and then you can't play Ball, just as simple as that. Something in between is the dynamic of Reaper v Winston, sure in theory Reaper shreds Winston, but Winston has the potential to work around Reaper with his mobility and bubble placement and shield dance. In that sense, Reaper works more like a zoning character, rather than a hard counter. Reaper doesn't have the skill ceiling to effectively shut down a skilled Winston, but he can make his life hard. That's a fine dynamic, but when you go above that where certain characters just lock out other heroes, or even full comps that just require that you mirror them for the sake of effectiveness, then the game is in a bad state. That's why the CC and ability increase poses such a major problem for Overwatch, because to effectively combat the abilities of certain heroes and comps, you are locked out from playing many heroes and you have to play this waiting game where you try to bait out and force the enemy's hand before you can even engage effectively. It's all about creating an opening, you can't work in the entire midfight because the real value only comes once every ability and counter ability has been forced. Going back to McCree vs Tracer, they can both work against each other constantly, try to force each others' hand in a fluid way where there is always the kill potential, and you have to mindgame each other if the skill level is equal. If Bap throws a lamp, that's it. It's a hard statement of "NO" to all you're trying to accomplish. A Sombra going out of invis and hacking you during your play with a no skill ability, thats a hard statement of "NO". These total shutdowns of abilities or general damage and plays, hurt the game.
ye I remember that tracer vs mccree analogy. A good ball can be played vs almost anything else so I don't feel like the sombra counter is a huge problem. And like pharah he's much better on somemaps than others. It's not like they would start to play ball in owl if they removed sombra from the game anyway.
Yeah I don’t like how some characters fun is taking the fun away from other people. Sombra and doom are fun to play but they have fun by taking away fun from other people.
@@anotherarush This is also a good talking point. In fact, in the first year and a half of Overwatch's release, a direct quote from Jeff himself was "We don't want to introduce elements that take away a player's control of their character, or make it feel like you aren't able to play the game and decide your own fate". But with the constant ability and cc creep, that statement has been turned completely on its head. Just to make an example, Sombra proves this the best by purely existing for these very reasons. Same with a hero like Doomfist whose entire kit is based around CC and without it he wouldn't be able to exist. Brig too, especially on release. It just goes to show that the OW we were first introduced to, is very far from the Overwatch that exists today, both in terms of complexity but more so in core philosophy.
"the counter for doomfist is having a brain" yeah ok but my teammates dont have brains, and they definitely don't have ears, I've never seen a teammate turn to shoot at doom the second they hear him
Besides it doesn't really matter if he's balanced or not. He is one of those characters that is so unfun to play against that no matter how niche he actually is he will feel terrible to play against. Probably similar to when Mei was a throw pick. Doomfist is a problem with design and not necessarily balance.
Doom isnt annoying to play against unless you in plat.... but even then , the hero have too much counters and also the heros he used to counter hard got super buffs over the years, its even hard to kill zen soldier and genji as doom atm its just unfair for doom players
I really like Freedo & his viewpoints are very informative, but I wish the guests had anywhere close to equal talking time...... It's frustrating to wait for their opinions but not be able to hear much of them.
It seems like Freedo has 4 opinions total and repeats them at every opportunity. Seagull expresses new and nuanced opinions of high quality, but he doesn't talk about them much. Remember that vid Seagull released like last year about the state of the game? Everybody was talking about that vid for a month.
I think reaper needs his a higher skill ceiling. Overwatch was my first PC first person shooter and I played him because I didn't need to be very good to get value out of him. And right now, I still think of him like this. I want him to have some abilities where you can do big brain moves with. I mean, the way he is played in silver isn't much different then the way he is played in masters.
It's different lol. Sliver reaper walk towards the whole enemy team and miss somehow but skill 3 or 2. Master sneak behind the enemy to just kill the support but then get slept.
Give Reaper an ability that deals less damage but ignores Defense Matrix, Kenetic Grasp, and shields. Make it similar to Storm Arrow, but have him announce it with a quick one-word call like "Loaded". Give him one or two shots to pick off an enemy regardless of enemy peel or shields. Also, give him a fixed pellet spread and make his teleport silent.
SVB these Role Debates are amazing and super educational and entertaining. I'm a support main but getting insight on dps and tanks as well is hopefully gonna increase my overall gamesense and skills. Also a good host let's his guests speak and elaborate on their thoughts instead of cutting them off. You are a great host my man.
Freedo talks a bit too much at times and talks about so many topics at once. The first hour only Pharah was talked about. We needed to focus more on the live game and dps than the experimental card. Maybe do a different discussion on that in a different video
@Abhinav Banerjee I hope lots of dps players move to other, more dps oriented, games. There are waaaay too many in Overwatch, but dps is only 1/3 of all the roles!
i'm glad you guys brought up junkrat being OP right now. i see him in nearly every fucking game, and he is triggering the fuck out of me. I genuinely think we're a good month or two out of a junkrat meta. if they go thru with the exp. card changes, i think thatll push it into existence immediately.
speaking on the subject of these guys making a workshop with mass nerfs and testing the game out, I think it would be very interesting to see individual players get together and try and balance the game how they view it. Whether it is getting a dream team together to make their own balance patch, or even one person and their own vision. I would love to see Seagull make his own mass balance patch, I feel like he really simplifies the changes he thinks the game needs and it would be really interesting to see where he takes it. I hope you guys actually end up making that workshop! It would be wonderful
I think overwatch would be great if the player can customize their own kit in a way. counter play and balancing options could be more available to the player
Rolling back power levels is only half of the equation. No ult should be able to be damage buffed & lamp should be 50% damage reduction below X hitpoints (or make lamp better and make it an ult).
Hero bans... One per map per team. Home/higher seed teams pick first. Same hero can't be banned twice in a series. Max of 3 maps with bans. We get to see bans and full unlocked meta if it's not a sweep/finals.
Widow idea: Damage fall off but she does 250 within 10m, 200 at 25m and 150 25+m. Would encourage being closer to the action and discourage massive sightline dominance.
I’d say full rework. Give her 5 second sights on 30sec cooldown, 180 dmg headshot max and an ultimate that gives her a high powered clip where she can one shot squishies and 2 shot tanks
Lumikki Harthri but a lot of people complain that blizzard only balances for OWL sometimes where the problems you run into in casual play don’t exist at the level they play at. Kinda hypocritical maybe?
Lumikki Harthri there are alot of good players on ps, also im prbbly 3 times better then you no joke . i play both on pc and ps and my rank is not that far away, actually as a doom main i love play on pc now more cuz its EASIER for me atlist on pc then console )
Regarding Ashe, I think if you consider her kit, you kinda understand why she's picked so often. Let's say for the sake of argument, they made these changes. * Reduced ammo count from 15 to 12 * Reduced reload speed from 0.25 to 0.3 * Unscoped shots to reach maximum spread decreased from 6 to 4 * Dynamite burn damage reduced to 15 from 20 I'm willing to bet she'll still be good, because the sheer amount of versatility she brings to the table is what makes her a solid pick where you're required to have at least 2 damage heroes. Think about it, why would pick a hero who's dependent on map, synergy, and team comp when you can pick a hero who works well regardless of those factors? That doesn't make Ashe overpowered, but honestly she sets the gold standard for how DPS should be designed. They'll never be meta defining picks, where people pick their tanks and supports based around an Ashe. Damage heroes need to be independent, and have enough value to them to allow for picks and carry potential, at the cost of being much harder to pick up and play than Supports or Tanks. Making Ashe will harder to play will do just that, but it won't make the other damage heroes suddenly get picked more. Kinda like nerfing Rein isn't going to make Winston or Orisa suddenly climb in pick rates, trash is still trash no matter how you try to dress it up (Winston's not that bad but I think you get my point).
i don't agree that maps should dictate your choice of hero. unless we are talking about a variable of viable heroes. locking certain character according to map choice seems boring and repetitive .
Are you dumb? Of course he plays the game still -- its Eddie and Weagal that don't anymore. Pay attention he said this multiple times already on the YOW channel.
@@DanielFlores-fo1ee no the game is doing fine, like Avast said, you people have skewed mentality to not think that other games can exist alongside OW.
Of course it's never DPS fault, maybe they should switch heros instead of beeing stuck on their useless Widow, Genji, hanzo, tracer or doomfist and learn to adapt on every situation. It's not like there's already 100000 dps to choose. I get what they are saying but maybe having differents players from differents ranks and even casual gamers can be good on this kind of debate because the perspectives of how they see the game are totally differents.
At high ranked console, pharah is just as good as she is on pc. Everyone at masters and above is either a really good controller hitscan or just straight up play m&k
What if blizzard replaced sigma’s barrier with a movement ability? Sigma can float instead of walk, but can only move vertically during his ultimate. Just an idea to consider.
But why? Sigma is a tank he needs a way to block damage thats not on a 12 second CD why would you play a tank with no barrier/way to block damage (DM for example)
@@zarroc4493 You guys are getting into a weird argument. 1. Why does it follow that just because most Tanks don't have multiple way to protect themselves, that there's anything wrong with being different from that? You seem to be implying all Tanks should have homogenized kits. 2. Orisa has Fortify + Barrier. 3. Sigma was designed to be a Main Tank even though he is not really played as one. 4. Barriers are not exactly to "protect yourself" as a Tank, they are to protect your team. Grasp is more of a personal protection. 5. It takes time and money to rework a hero. So it needs to be justified with a good reason, i.e. usually the hero is poorly designed, overly niche, annoying or unsatisfying somehow. Sigma is generally agreed to be a fun Tank... it is pointless to rework his Barrier into mobility when other heroes clearly need more help. I mean no offense but this is a classic case of a fan thinking too much on all these great ideas they have, really excited to see change but not thinking about priorities.
I think its just me because I absolutely wreck echos as pharah. Echo is just so easy to hit after she uses her flight and is gliding down. So imagine my surprise when I hear people say echo can counter pharah. A bad pharah sure but if you can hit consecutive rockets echo is dead. Which is not hard to do actually.
No, they straigth up laugh at his face, not very profesional to do that, if you dont agree whit some one just give your points on why you disagree but dont laugh at them.
Can you have Freedo's mic volume match everyone elses in the next video? Last one he was quiet as well. Working from home means I can't just make it super loud to hear so that'd be great if you could normalize it. Thanks!
Its not junkrat its actually named the vulture as he always double mine jumps into your team and kills everything. You think your safe as a support until the vulture strikes.
I am biased as a brig main but I hope that is the once change that doesn’t go through. I believe she’s in a really good spot actually, I never have problems playing as or against her so not sure why she’s being changed. She’s supposed to be right up to enemies and reducing inspire and health is a bad move
Leave all the nerfs buff shield to 275 or 300 nerf her hps on pack down to 50 but give her 25 over heal back buff inspire duration by one second nerf the impactfulness of ult but make it come up more often and bing bang boom she’s balanced
Charmander 8bit yeah geez man I want more! Info and thoughts on her. Cause I love Tracer but verses the oneshots and burst healing and immortality it’s a little annoying to play against.
@@brandonsLeaf1 it goes without saying but you have to change how you play especially around brig and torb. Aviv has a good tracer guide. I managed to climb to 3900 with tracer only with his guide and watching pro videos
They don't need to put the Pharah buff onto console, they just don't. They will because they are lazy and don't care about players on console. But when the game came out they said they would balance it differently, so go and do that. For the record i play Pharah, she is already in a good spot on PS4. Except maybe really high up on ladder.
Now you should do something like "The great Overwatch debate" Where you have 1 or 2 people from every debate (for example Cupcake and Niandra, Freedo and Flats, and Samito and Seagull) where they discuss the best and worst things about every role from their own perspective as a dps, tank or support player. I hope you see this and hopefully you'll like this idea. I've really enjoyed watching all of the debates so far. Thanks for having such amazing ideas!
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Take a shot when Freedo talks about Powercreep Take a shot when Samito talks about a low skill ability/hero Take a shot when Seagull says something funny Take a shot when SVB tries to shift the topic see u in hospital
I agree with seagull and Sam, and I have been saying this for a while. Continuing to balance and build off of changes made during goats meta is only going to further break the balance of the game. Rolling back changes made to address an issue that doesn't exist anymore just seems like common sense to me.
It's like they have two different people making changes that are stumbling over each other, one doesn't account for the other, and they cause this huge balance issue when the changes overlap to either produce a change way too strong or too weak. They did the same thing too before GOATS actually. They nerfed Tracer's ult because it killed tanks too easily, yet they somehow forgot to account for the exact same patch release of Brigitte which pretty much killed Tracer during GOATS meaning Tracer was pretty much a throw pick during that time. Of course, this is just the one example I noted since then, they've repeated this every so often. The dev team is really awful at balancing for PvP, its no wonder this game has gotten to this state. PvE is something to look forward to, since no one gives a shit about being OP against bots.
@@aglis_ Balancing games is hard but the devs just seem especially bad with it. It rarely feels like they know what they're doing with heroes and a big reason is that the devs are too busy fighting over changes.
"Only going to further break the balance" Ehhh, tbh, it's gotten more balanced as time has gone on. Not saying that the changes shouldn't be reverted, but post-GOATS (i.e. right now) is definitely one of the more balanced Overwatch eras.
blizzard was never known for great pvp balancing. Having one game where the balance was great does not mean, that other games will get the same treatment. How goes the saying? Even a blind chicken finds a corn.
As a lower ranked player, this is so great to watch. So much game knowledge being tossed around and I always come out having a much better feel for the game on the other side - and I LOVE design talk. Please keep these up.
I think Zarya and Winston are the only tanks that feel super “neutral” Winston has only gotten minor buffs and Zarya got nerfed then minor buff. And I think it’s honestly where we need other heroes
Winston, Lucio, and Hanzo were all good up until new heroes came out/other heroes getting buffed and leaving them in the dust when it comes to power. Zarya is sort of in that boat as well, they gotta start nerfing dps and nerfing sustain if they want these older characters to be good.
Trying to balance this while also adding like 6 hero’s must be difficult. We ask for big updates then also say they change too much at once. To be fair it seems like a really hard job
But It isnt. I know its in another genre, but Dota2 has over 110 heros and the game is always in a fairly balanced state. The big difference between the two games is that Dota2 gets small patches relatively often, with a big patch around once every 2-4 months.
@@ollieols3418 you can't compare overwatch with a moba. They only have one map (basing this on LoL not played Dota2) with three lanes. You add a new champion to fit into that system. Whereas in overwatch you add a hero but are not sure of their impact on every map and every type of game mode. Also heroes have a bigger impact on certain maps control is played completely differently to hybrid maps - even if you used the same heroes. It's like comparing cricket to football both are sports and team games but are so different.
@Juan Castaneda You're joking right? Balancing heroes is not that difficult, the developers were notorious for completely ignoring the balance of the game for long periods of time, then magically dropping one patch 3 months out of a horrible meta, and then disappearing again, hoping everything works out.
@@fraserproudfoot1990 You may not know this (maybe you do), but OW maps are developed in a way that forces circumstances on purpose. All the devs have to do is build around those already implemented ideas. For instance, doors are made specifically so winston cannot jump thru them, but if you go to the other side, it's completely open with no ceiling. There are many instances of this sort of design in OW, and the maps are more universally designed then you might think.
I feel like Doom is always going to be in an awkward spot balance wise because he's so all in. But personally I feel even if Doomfist is the worst character in the game he will still feel terrible to play against. It's the same thing with Mei. They can be super niche but feel bad to play against. Doom's design is just too volatile.
Emerald Moth it means it’s easy to stop him if you have game sense. If you know they have a doom be ready for him sit in spots he has to use cool downs to come to you. Keap a cool down ready to use. If your getting fucked switch
I will say that I enjoyed this discussion, much like the Support and Tank debates before it. However, I think that if the opportunity arises in the future, you may wish to consider revisiting this particular topic. As great as the incite into the recent Experimental Card changes were, alongside their potential impact on the game if allowed to go live, I feel it ultimately cursed and took away from the conversation that brought us here to begin with. By the time we hit the one hour mark, only two heroes have been covered whilst a third is being worked through. A few of the DPS discussed are done so mainly by way of some other Tank or Support hero who was the primary focus at that moment. Samito doesn't even have enough time to offer his fully fleshed-out take on Genji nor any concluding thoughts alongside the rest. Mind you, I don't hold it against him for having other things come up, it is what it is. Perhaps if this had remained more focused, like previous debates, that time constraint wouldn't have been an issue. Again, very enjoyable overall. Just messier, which is especially noticeable when discussing DPS because there are so many more heroes who need to be covered when compared to the other classes.
It certainly was the weakest of all the debates. Certain heroes were hardly included in the debate. I know meta comes into the discussion but that took the focus more than any heroes. Brig, Orisa and Sigma are pretty central to the game right now but they also aren't DPS. Maybe if it was a focus on how everyone fit into that meta it would have been more appropriate. Sadly that was not really the case.
I find it funny how Seagull looks like he's holding in just constantly telling Freedo he's wrong on a lot of things. even asking if he's even played the Changes and when Freedo said he didn't try some of them I feel that just voided most of his points after that to him.
You can tell he's biting his tongue. I love how he comes in and just goes 'No, I've tested this out, I've got experience'. Even when he doesn't know he says that he doesn't have too much current knowledge on it.
I love freedo on other channels but dude needs a timer on him when it comes to other people talking. SVB you need to control the conversation and be the mediator when it comes to guests talking. This man talked wayyyy too much. Loved the discussion tho.
Yeah Freedo kind of made himself MC and featured guest, especially in the very beginning. I think his perspective is good, just maybe less of it. We can always get his take on his own channel.
@@davidrich27 the whole poimt of him being here is to talk about his point, he should take as long as he needs to get his point across clearly, they all should. Thats the point of a podcast... You guys are so arrogant its incredible
@@StVez You make no sense. The fuck does arrogance have to do with saying someone is talking too much? The point of a podcast is whatever you want it to be. When you're having a discussion, you want relatively equal opportunity for everyone's input. But you can definitely have people taking over the conversation. Discussion is about the exchange of ideas, not going into 5 min diatribes. It wasn't awful, but Freedo was definitely hogging the mic a bit.
the thing that got me most about this conversation was "call of duty for world of warcraft players" i don't know if its original to Freedo or not, but it really hits the nail on the head for me. because you have 2 different entry points into the series your always going to have conflicting methodologies (moba vs fps). additionally you are going to have to try and balance a game where people are entering with a literal lifetime of FPS mechanics vs a literal lifetime of RTS/RPG strategic thinking. the dev team must be so polarized on so many issues because we are even seeing that trickle down to the community. As an Ex WOW player, who now is comfortably in the top end of gold/low plat I really appreciate all of the interactions in cooldowns and strategy because I don't have the mechanical skill to "click heads" at the higher ranks. Watching OWL I can see how the same interactions I enjoy, from a Rock-Paper-Scissors mentality in my games, become oppressive when played at the bleeding edge and i haven't the foggiest idea how anyone hopes to balance the 2. my only critique for this format, is that the guests are in the top 5% of the player-base, which gives them a ton of credibility, but i feel like they have trouble seeing the game in the same way as the other 95%. Perhaps it's a symptom of viewers only wanting to see crazy skill, but I feel like players in the "metal ranks" are largely disregarded because they "haven't gotten good". Even within the comments here, it seems like Freedo is discriminated against because hes not an OWL player, which, in my mind, is a disservice to the player-base at large.
@@ryanfrancis3839 I second, the Support debate was a dung heap. Don't bother. Let me sum up how it went: "people have an issue with this thing... oh well." Half the people on had only personal emotional opinions and only one had any objective rational perspectives for the game as a whole. Don't waste your time, you get more from the comments section.
I guess the next debate to get players from different ranks and talk about their issues? A player from a metal rank, a player from diamond/masters, a player from Top 500, and a pro player. Idk I think that would be cool to hear the different perspectives on that.
I’m a gold/play player here. I don’t know why I mentioned that but I totally agree with you. So much discussion based around the gameplay of around 2 percent of the player base.
I agree its a good idea but at the same time I feel the issue is that at the lower ranks you don't really understand the gameplay mechanics and different interactions each hero has or else you would be able to climb to diamond+ (would say masters+ but honestly those players understand the game but are the most toxic bunch imo). Granted some people are just held back by mechanics but the game also has a ton of light mechanic options you could climb with. Similar to what Sam and seagull said, at lower elos you may say a hero like roadhog gets alot of value and can just stomp through games. That would be an issue not with his kit or balance but the understanding of gameplay and mechanics of those going against him.
Yossi Goldstein I have played there and this is what I learned. In there no brain characters like doom, sombra and reaper dominate because they have really specific counters. Also the characters like bastion torb and sym are powerful because counter picking and play doesn’t exist. It’s kinda like everyone is a 1 trick who don’t know how to outplay counters or counter pick.
15:04 lol I like Freedo, but that just seems so backwards hahaha. I think playing a new patch, THEN giving thoughts and reactions is a more productive and informative process than simply seeing the patch notes and discussing/ speculating from there
Freedo is general just talks a lot without having specialised knowledge His whole brand is generalising and making things accessible for the mainstream so like. Dia and plat players. So it doesnt rly matter what the details are he just rambles about the gist . The only problem is that ppl take his word as gospel when hes like masters and never talks to the best specialists on niche issues
@@ayembic7933 Well there's nothing wrong with speaking as a Masters player or speaking in general. The vast majority of OW players are sub-Diamond. I think its cool to get a perspective from someone that doesnt live in GM or Top 500. I just thought it was weird that Freedo and Sam were giving takes on the experiment before even playing it
I think he shines when he plays devil's advocate on conversation with others. At least he can admit that his takes are trash and it moves the discussion in some cool directions
I think GM and Top 500 steamers think players in Diamond and below play like Bronze. the assumption that players can't deal with Bastion in Gold or Plat absolutely isn't true. Bastion might be strong in firepower, but without coordinated protection (which is usually the case) he is a massive liability. I have seen pirates ships fail time and time again because they didn't use cooldowns properly and the pressure got to Bastion rather quickly. I think they need to watch newer vods of Golds and Plats and see that those two ranks, and especially high Plat don't play anything like they used to 2 years ago. no, there aren't many meta slaves, but people generally independently know how to counter something as easily counterable as a Basion. Basion absolutely needs buffs, and you know what, he isn't even good in Bronze, because good luck ever getting any protection at all, and don't expect Bronze bastions to know when and where to redeploy correctly.
@Abhinav Banerjee Every time Blizzard does a nerf the meta changes. As you point out, that is the point. Problem is that a new meta arises that people complain about. For me the problem lies within the fact that not all metas are playable at all ranks. I have liked double shield, because at the low SR I am, it is playable. Dive is not possible without coordination. This simply leads to less tanks available at the rank where the meta sucks.
@Abhinav Banerjee Every Meta was not so enjoyable for the community and there will ways complaints about it. And nope, burst dps heroes are too strong ATM so barrier tanks become necessary in every comp. The same happened already in the past with multiple sniper heroes in a comp and it created the GOATs Meta.
As Much Of People Dont want to admit it. Ana started all this Healing Creep. Than They added Moira and Then Brig wasn't a healing problem yet just a cant die problem. Mercy Got Nerfed Even though She Was about to fall out of meta and Then You Add a Character Who Has Aoe and a Burst Heal and Damage with an ability to prevent death. Did I mention also Vertical Mobilty.
Well, when you are trying to get both a competitive game and a casual friendly game you get neither. You get Goats. Ironically, by making the game more accesible they also make the game less rewarding, shorter lived. I believe that is why Dark Souls is still quoted by a lot of people while other games that are easy to master decay over time. At least that is how I see it.
I'm not sure if I agree. I feel a competitive scene emerges from a casual one naturally. I think the major problem with OW is an identity crisis. The devs don't really know what they want the game to look like. I think Samito is right. From a business perspective you want to bring in as many players as possible. The accessibility and the diverse roster is what brings players from all over the spectrum into the game. I think Blizz should lean into that as it's a major appeal of Overwatch as a game.
@@reggielet9804 From a business perspective? no. HELL NO. Blizzard is ignoring the first rule about sales: You only sell something when you know people will come back for more. They are favouring short term profit over long term business strategy. (But the clear move to mobile, the focus on China and the large amount of bad decisions over the years are really festering in Blizzard at this point. Remember, it took years for Blizzard to become the most respected company in the gaming industry, so it takes a few years to destroy that as well). The CEO couldent care less, he gets paid based on year to year profits, not long term strategy. It is well known that this is a conflict of interest for CEOs. It is almost identical to the real estate crysis of 2008, because so long as everyone is getting what they want, they ignore how screwed up the thing is (meaning as long as the shareholders get more money, they will be happy to pay BLizzard's CEO more bonuses, even if it means he puts a torch to the building to get the insurance). Imagine what will happen, when blizzard rides down their IPs to the ground for profit and need to come up with something new, after they have been replacing old Blizzard employees and management for Activision. I dont expect this to get better. I hope I am wrong, because many of my favorite games are Blizzard games, but I dont see how they can get back on track. I think Overwatch 2 will be a big tell (thou to be honest, based on facts like them releasing paid only skins, it is clear where the direction is at this point). By the way, This is just my opinion. I happen to have been accurate in the past (Like when i said that brig will break the game and that they will nerf her so many times we wont be able to keep count), but selective memory probably makes me forget the times I was wrong so...
@@lrmcatspaw1 Um I'm not familiar enough with the business practices of Activision or Blizzard as a whole... I just know that there is a reason that Overwatch as a stand-alone title was so so successful. It brings in players from all over. I personally never played any fps before Overwatch. I would say as far as design goes I'm hoping Blizz finds a happy middle ground between the loaded kits of Brig and Sigma, and the one dimensional kits of Reaper and Moira. It's really hard to balance the game when you have characters that can basically do everything and characters that can only do one thing.
@@reggielet9804 I dont think the problem is the fact that some heroes are more complex than others. I think the problem is that you have an SR system where having a significant impact with some heroes is easier than with others. This is where Goats came from. Remember, OWL teams are the pinnacle of overwatch, and they went for whatever would easier guarantee wins. It got so bad that Blizzard decided to bring live GOATS to the show to make a bet on which team would win to make it interesting (yes, it was that bad). That is why in QP i dont mind getting killed by those "lower skill ceiling" heros, in fact it is the reason I dont play ranked anymore. What is the point of a rank, when it does not represent your skill in the game? (Shout out to DaFran who lost a Rein 1v1 vs a Bronze Rein). Think about it: the game is actively telling you, after each match, that you play worse than someone who is playing something easier. That is not to say that Brig and Moira require "no skill" at all (people overexagerate these), but I happen to play often in QP with a friend who mains Brig and Moira, and he gets less damage as Bastion than me as MC cree when he tries to DPS, so this is both from theory and expirience. Let me explain my point a bit thou: When Brig came out I said to my friends (and in a few youtube comments) "They will nerf her more times than we can count and she will either become shit or still be broken". Why? because if her kit requires little skill to master (time invested, talent, etc), then her value in the battlefield needs to reflect that. Now try to balance that. Try to apply this idea to any other hero. Think of this: how do you balance Widowmaker if she always headshots everytime she pulls the trigger? (this is on top of having all her previous skills, like grapple hook) You do you balance genji if he gets a dash reset everytime he damages someone with dash? (this is with him keeping all his previous skills, imagine just dashing the ground repeatedly next to your target). Well, brig guarantees damage and self heal and team heal when she hits an enemy. How many times have you MISSED an enemy with brig? Yes, bash and whipshot are not that easy, knowing when to use them is not that easy, position is not that easy... but every other hero has the same thing to consider AND aiming on top of that. Again, how do you balance it? In my opinion, you cant. Because everytime you change any other hero in the game, Brig would be shuffled again based on how strict you had to be with the balancing of her guaranteed hit. Its a question of probability really. "how likely are you to win this fight". This includes "how likely are you to kill brig before she heals up enough to kill you". Moira is a bit different here. I still dont like her in the game, but compared to Brig she is more balanced than Thanos wants.
@Enda O'Rourke I am not trying to draw parallels between Dark Souls multiplayer and Overwatch, I am mentioning it as an example of a challenge being rewarding.
As a Silver PS4 casual player that started in 2018: I adored Brig & Moira when they released, to this day I love playing them, but they are the epidemy lf what annoys me about this game rn. There's way too many characters that can easily stun and burst you rn, it feels like any slip up will kill you not because the enemy is aiming well or using game sense, they're just piling on Shield Bash, Hooks, Freezes, and Flash Bangs or dropping Junk Mines, Dynamites, and Helix Rockets. Match this with the Shield Meta and it feels like any game is just stand behind shield til you break the enemy's and then just throw a ton of easy cooldowns on them. And there's a lot of abilities I recognize are super strong like Genji's Dash, Sigma's Grasp, and Reaper's passive that just don't feel as annoying bc they're not actively disrupting the flow of the game. And tbf I don't know how to fix this cause a lot of Characters that are fun to play like Echo, Babtiste, Lúcio, Sombra, and Moira are fun precisely bc of that bursty playstile, high mobility, and/or AOE abilities, but I guess I just wish they'd prioritize making a fun game. Meta's can rise, but I'd like them to priorifize good fun game design more.
Me reading your comment realizing you didnt complain about doomfist who is countered by more than half the cast and is countered by the enemy having a brain and gamesense: "A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one."
The game has a fundamental flaw. (We all have a different experience) Every FPS we play the same character so we can build skill for that character. However with Overwatch if someone starts by playing Tracer and another starts with Baptiste you will see the game in a fundamentally different way.
It's impossible to balance the game around OWL and cater to players of all levels. Freedo needs to get out of Overwatch quick, he's more spicy than Samito in this vid. Also, always a pleasure to have Seagull!
Exactly they need to balance the game at the highest tier and forget about lower ranks. It doesn't matter either way cause the lower ranks will always do their own thing and have "their own meta"
@@simbadg13 yes ignore big majority off the playerbase odd an old game. Yes they should mainly look at the high end but they should also try to keep it somewhat enjoyable to learn for most of the playerbase, no company wouldnt do that. Get over yourself
@@darkwolf1739 yeah 4 years of balancing round lower elos really improved the game and gathered even more player and the playerbase didn't all left at all
@@98thebern FACTS exactly this guy gets it and the other doesn't. Saying "get over yourself" doesn't add anything to your argument and shows how little their analytical skills are....
i just played experimental and i really liked the pharah changes. her flight feels so much smoother and her ult isn't a slightly more elaborated suicide anymore
i think the biggest problem is that people don't play strategically around cover and also the fact that there isn't enough cover/too many flanks and open areas in the game that makes barriers so broken overwatch without barriers is shit because the maps were designed with barriers in mind
The problem with doom fist is that he's unfun to play against. That should not be a thing. This is another reason why people also hate bastion he's unfun to play against and even to play with.
@@emiliox4474 I do but when he lift you up twice and kills you it's really dumb. I counter him most of the time, but then he will just go for the rest of the team.
Does anyone else think Ashe's dynamite damage is odd? 75 explosion then 100 burn over time, which I've always thought should be the other way around. I'd also love for them to lower the burn over time damage but the Devs must think it's fine
@@ZerxHere i say remove the fire damage but keep the explosion. Give her 10 bullets in her gun and lower her reload speed. Remove her ult gain when bob is out.
Would love to see more console representation in these panels, especially since Pharah is so overpowered on console (even in Masters). Blizzard keep nerfing Tanks & Supports while buffing DPS, then they wonder why no-one wants to play Tank or Support. :(
Definitely, I have had so many winnable games (on console) where the enemy team switches to Pharmercy and just kills everyone :/ maybe reduced damage or less airtime?
Charles Carey exactly aim assist on console literally makes Ashe players hit every shot it’s almost like you need 0 skill to play that hero and then every other healer is a mercy 1 trick cause they also have no skill but don’t get punished for playing mercy because nobody plays meta with a computer that destroys mercy for her weaknesses. I always get a god damn hog on my team while they play double shield
There’s no chance we’re going to balance around console. You either 1. pray that blizzard separate balance for consoles - which won’t happen. 2. Suck it up and play on console. 3. Switch.
Samito is right, Brig is the strongest Hero in the game, because her skill floor is equal to her skill ceiling. Sigma is strong, but you still have to land hyperspheres and accretions to get most of the value out of him. Any halfwit can jog along with their team and land a beach-ball sized whip shot when your entire team is pressing W + M1. It's not as forgiving as Mercy's leash, but it's very close.
I dont want to have a full debate because I have to explain this to everyone. Brig is actually a decently complex hero, not as complicated as gengi or tracer, but she has depth. You can easily tell the difference between a good and bad brig. Her skill ceiling is very different from her skill floor. Dont trash heros you know next to nothing about.
@@Arucan I know everything about Brig. She's got the simplest, most forgiving kit in the game, with the possible exception of Mercy. But the difference is that, if Mercy gets cornered, she can't turn and brawl her way out of trouble with a foolproof kit. Mercy actually needs to be able to land headshots with that weak-ass popgun. Brig's only relevant skills are positioning and cooldown management. Well, that is a problem that every Hero in the game has to master. The difference is that every other Hero has some mechanical complexity to handling their movement, their aim, or both. Any complexity Brig players have to cope with is a subset of the complexity any other Hero has to manage, again, with the possible exception of Mercy.
@Abhinav Banerjee She's an absurdly simple character. No tricky movement. no aiming, just one beach-ball sized whip shot every 4 seconds, as if such a short cooldown made missing remotely consequential, and a shield which neutralizes all kinds of mechanics and damage. You're right, you can play like a complete spastic asshat and just leave your team and try to 1 v 6 people, but anything approaching competent play will furnish results, and most importantly, there's no way to play Brig *BETTER*. The best Ana players in the world will still miss with 70% of her scoped biotic rifle shots. Hipfire is considerably less reliable, and at high ranks, using scoped fire is a giant signal to every flanker on the map betraying your location. The 90% percentile of players will hit less than 30% of biotic rifle shots. Why on earth would you take that risk, that more than half your healing is going to strike air, when you can get guaranteed value from repair pack, plus constant healing from Inspire in every brawl? If the game let you, the top teams would run double-brig.
@Abhinav Banerjee Check win rates, not pick rates. Pick rate alone won't tell you if a Hero is good. Brig is less popular at lower SR because as Freedo says in this very video: the meta-game is less prescriptive the lower you go. You can play whatever you want in Gold or Plat, it's no-stakes. In GM, where the meta really is dominant, Brig is unrivaled. As for healing sustain, that's a complete joke. The reason Ana can't heal forever is because in low SR, she'll get farmed by flankers, when you can't rely on teammates to communicate and peel. So, pardon me while I play the world's smallest violin while you have to wait six seconds for repair pack to refresh and you're only healing with inspire when the Ana is waiting out the respawn timer.
Please if you ever do one of these again dont invite freedo. He is just a master player that makes overwatch news, samito and seagull are both formerhigh tier pro players who stretch the games to the limits so they know what they are talking about. Please replace freedo with anyone qualified like linkzr, kabaji just anyone but freedo. He doesnt know what he is talking about.
@@VeganBro05 A solid understanding in a context like this isnt enough. I mean I am a master/gm dps player too, but am I qualified to talk in this podcast. Definitely not, because I havent mastered the game.
I think Overwatch struggles design-wise, because the vision was to have hero-swapping for maps and to counter comps... but that idea is fighting two things. First, people like to have a main character and second a lot of the characters play very different and for the average player to be competent at multiple heroes to facilitate a counter comp hero swap is a time commitment they won't make. Also even the people playing at high ranks that do sink a bunch of time in the game... seem to get an equal or greater return on investment by becoming really good at whatever character is slightly overtuned than knowing how to play multiple heroes at serviceable levels.
