The Great Ordeal and Unholy Consult Spoiler Discussion - R. Scott Bakker 

The Unholy Consult is probably the most epic novel I have ever read. It's on par with the most epic moments of Malazan.

I picked The Darkness That Comes before up in a charity shop and it sat on my shelf for two years before I started it. Best £2 I ever spent.

I love how Mark’s daughter is cosplaying Sorweel wearing the Amiolas

I really appreciate these discussions you have had on this series. You all have been doing the lords work with regards to getting the word out on how great The Second Apocalypse is.

To add to the convo around 1:20 on what the next books could be. Remember when esminet was reading the sagas. These were books written not in horror but in the profound triumph over the cataclysm. If what comes before determines what comes after I'd say we could expect to read this cycle of the sagas. So fractured glimpses of the great ones who remain, where they fall, where they hold. The greatest of battles. That's what I think.

There's a head on a pole behind you. Oh wait that's just Bobby B.

This was your best. The culmination of all that came before! Thank you!

It was great listening to each of your thoughts on the series. I appreciate you putting these together, they have been entertaining to watch.

Jimmy being the Nutt-God the entire time was the biggest plot twist of the entire series!

All these chats have been great, I appreciate it so much. I also came here to say... Book of the New Sun is my jam!

how did i miss this upload! was waiting for this one for a while, very keen!

Wow at when Mark mentioned Proyas with Achamian mirroring the iconic king dying First Apocalypse scene - which brings me to something new (at least for myself) - I have to think that Kellhus was more of a Seswatha to this ordeal than Achamian was, which could explain Bakker saying how he was dead but not done, Kellhus will somehow influence a future School through dreams, or more direct communication, from the Outside, thus still imposing his will upon Earwa the next Ordeal/Apocalypse cycle

Oh damn, thanks to Amanda I just realised that it was the No-god that caused Mimara’s second baby to be stillborn… 😮

Second time watching this in full, this time fresh off 2nd reads of GO and UC. Been to the online forums but this audio format is just perfect for a hike in deep Northern Canadian woods! Thanks again guys!

Thanks for doing these. It was very enjoyable listening to you three talk about all of these. The series made a huge impact on me, but it seemed like no one else knew it for the longest time. It's nice to know I'm not crazy. At least, not for this.

LOL. Listening to this I want to jump into the conversation so many times. I wanted you guys to delve into the best part of TGO to me, and that was Mimara sounding a FUCKING Dunyain. "You only think you survived the Thousand Thousand Halls." Cuts and cuts and cuts. Amazing stuff per usual. Said it before, but I don't buy the complete determinism. The No-God itself broke the fundamental fabric of the universe, and still failed. And it/consult now has a second chance. Just because Kelmomas was always the No-God, was determined by the choices made. The same way TWLW was broken. Had one or many things changed, Kelmomas would have been obliterated by Kellhus or whoever, and The Consult would try and wait out to breed a mind that could match the sarcophagus. Feel free to send me to the holy deep if I am wrong! Read Cormac and Muir for post Bakker blues!

this is quite literally the greatest convo ever for a lazy sat morn. thank you!

I think you guys mentioned at one point about Bakker's blog and not being able to find a post there. He posted something in early 2021 about basically being offline for the past year and doing DIY on his house. For some reason, he seems to have deleted that post since. (unless I'm being blind!)

Guttered I missed this; the big thing I thought about with the ending was who the other decapitated head was and then after reading the ‘Decapitant’ part in the appendices just gives out more questions. Also when Esmenet is explaining about how kellhus teaches her to deal with maithanet she says ‘if he makes you believe he is being deceived it is part of a bigger deception’ kelmomas ‘why does he pretend he doesn’t see’ I believe kellhus knows how everything was gonna happen 5D chess master no wool pulled over them eyes.

wish these were out when i read the series in 2019! Loved listening!

Just finished two nights ago and at first I was kinda nonplussed and frustrated with the ending, but the more I reflect on it the more I love it. I seriously hope the NG duology happens though, there is so much potential there and so many unanswered questions. Bakker is now my second favorite aithor next to Tolkien. Thanks all you three for another epic chat. Also I am surprised to hear the meaning of "there is a head on a pole behind you" is a mystery/debate among the fandom, I interpreted that in a somewhat straight forward way and think it is certainly one of the most powerful parts of the series.

Now for a serious comment, since I finished the video. I really really like the series. It's fucking amazing and I plan on joining a reread Books with Zara is planning to put on. And I feel the same as you Jimmy, in terms of rethinking of favorites, but also seeing it as far more nuanced measure than just having a top tier list. ASOIF is still a favorite too, and in a lot of ways a foundational text that will always have a special place that I measure books against. At this point Malazan and now Second Apocalypse have also entered that space, to show where this genre and just reading in general can go. Like y'all said, this series really makes you think, from theories on the plot to wondering about human nature itself. As for the misogyny, I do love how Erikson and Esslemont show us a world without patriarchy. It is an important aspect of fiction to sometimes show us what we could be, to question our assumptions of our reality. This same lesson can also be taught by showing us the problems. Bakker is not doing this to be edgy and sensational or just assuming 'that's how things were'. It's quite clear he was showing the utter horrors of patriarchy and sexual exploitation. Some readers don't want that, and that's perfectly reasonable (it's why I've been hesitant to read Blood Meridian, I know the genocide my people have suffered, I don't always need to be reminded of it). Yet, it doesn't make someone a bigot who explores those shitty sides of our history and our nature. Because it's still happening, right now, somewhere out there on our little world.

After my friend mentioned the consult might be aliens, it totally changed my view point of the whole thing when reading the last book. It makes so much sense when you think about the nuke in dagliash and the spear being described as shooting a pulse seems like a laser gun. And the consults magic is even called the Tekne which sounds like Technology. So when the mutilated dunyain find the arc they see the superior advance technology and link it to a higher logic. So that would make sense why they find it as the more compelling search for the logos. Very cool and interesting. i love the info you mentioned about nail of heaven being a wormhole. i didnt catch that it appeared after arcfall. so that makes even more sense. i always just thought it was likw the North star.

I wish I could add comments from my computer with a real typewriter but they don't stick for some reason. I cheered at the end of Thought and said bad words at the end of consult not realizing 200 pages of appendix. I had to let it digest a bit before I realized it was the perfect ending as it ended at the beginning of the darkness that came before. Erickson wrote amazing scenes and epilogues to finish. Bakker took the shortest path with a sentence. Reading this I kept thinking of the original definition of apocalypse which means revelation as it was just as applicable to the more common end times usage. Another theme not brought up is the consequences of choice. Compare the actions of those who know they are damned vs. those who think they are saved regardless like a plenary indulgence. The former often act better. I probably reread the conversation with Cleric on the philosophy/ religion of the Nonmen 10 times and it almost started to make sense. I did have to laugh when you commented about something paying off two books later. Erickson often made you wait longer. Bakker showed his Dune influence as the whale mothers are essentially what axlotl tanks are, but that is from the later books when you have more Bene Tlielax who also seem to be an influence. You will see Wolfe in there too when you read New Sun. Regarding coming down from the ultimate meat sweat, did you catch Sorwheel's comment he knew of a cure for sranc poisoning? Turns out just eat people. You also talked about death of the author. Maybe the new Bakker just needs to snort the old one. In conclusion, as much as this series intrigued me, I don't see a reread anytime soon as I had to walk away several times. Someday yes unlike after reading the epilog in CG immediately reading the GotM prologue and having to just stop. I really am looking forward to the Raf Chase Johanna reviews as their perspectives are so varied they each key in on different things. But I completely agree Malazan, with a lot of input from AP, has made me read differently. Bakker is an amazing writer and these books were fairly focused thematically. Erickson explored a lot more and was more like a series of short stories. Bakker told more of a singular plot and I think it made me feel exactly like he wanted me to when done. The comparisons are unavoidable but quickly become pointless but fun to chat about.

"Head on a pole behind you" what the fuck is that? - exactly, Jimmy. Exactly. 😅

IMHO, the Head-onna-pole is there to observe and anchor reality. It's quantum.

I made a custom Kindle dictionary out of the glossary and it helped a ton to quickly lookup names or places. Just long press something rather than having to flip to the back and look something up.

When I first finished the slog of slogs my first thought was: How can THAT be the ending? Curse Likaro! But the more I thought about it the more I liked it. Second Apocalypse is easily among my top 5 series, mabye top 3

While reading the second I came to an idea that Khelmomas is a perfect narinadar, the white luck warrior of Ajokli. Assuming Ajokli's goal is to reach and take control/ damage that No-god. By merging with it in the end he can use it against other gods or damage the No-god device from the inside. Or it could become some third entity...

Were the Inchoroi aware of the Gods before the Arkfall? Do the Gods only exist in Earwa? Also, if Kelmomas was the No God since birth...the story repeats right? Un anasurimbor saving the worl and another turned into No god (ancient Kayutas).. Sorry for the spelling

There is a strange parrallel between the ordeal consuming drank meat and the Mimara's party consuming the ashes of nonmen. Cause the srank were made of the flesh of the nonmen. So the meat is tainted flesh of the nonmen

I think everybody who wants to understand Bakker's fiction should read the Three Pound Brain blog.

Fun discussion guys. Listening to you guys reminds me of phone convos I’ve have with Madness. (Whom I consider siqu to all of us on this slog)

book to look at: A Mind of Its Own by Cordelia Fine. Goes into how our brains are lying to us constantly about everything, and Bakker has talked about it before.

Omg now i can finally watch this! So at the end of Thousandfold Thought i had a strong feeling of where things were going with Kellhus and the no god. So glad, or distraught, that i was right!

Totally down for a New Sun discussion 🤘

I just finished TUC and I can easily say this is the best series I’ve ever read and I don’t even think it’s close. Chapter 12 of The Great Ordeal just might be the best chapter of any book I’ve ever read and I honestly didn’t know wtf was going on for half of it 😂

Bakker is the Yoko Taro of fantasy literature, no I will not elaborate

julian jaynes bicameral mind book is fascinating, I came to it through a different route, the bakker connection was a lovely surprise for me. Erikson is brilliant but bakker is deeper

Hi Jimmy you probably already know this- but on Brandon Sandersons latest news update on his RU-vid channel- he said reviewers like yourself can apply to be an ambassador and get advance reader copies. So it might be something you want to check out. If you haven’t already done so.

Just got into this series this year. It's amazing but it's not an easy read.

I finished this series and didn't know what da fuq was going on

Me, ATM: 1). Tolkien 2=). Erikson/ Bakker 4). Martin

1:45:13 don’t worry about it this is for me thx

BotNS is dope

2:17:42 I loved that so much. My dude needs to be easier on himself. 🥺

Wtf! I missed that this came out

2:12:33 is there a reference/resource page for all these books he suggests? I mean there must be, y’all been spouting off a few titles around this part of it.

I'd rather take my chances against one of the Others/White Walkers from ASOIAF than be on the same planet as 1 Sranc.

Bakker blues killed fantasy as a genre for me

If this wasn't a deterministic universe the gods would be able to see the nogod, thay are blind to the nogod because the nogod eventually wins and the gods are trans time creatures and can't see anything that's isn't at the end of time

I found these books to be a self indulgent morass. I knew what was going to happen long before the ordeal ended, and it was an ordeal. I would never recommend this series.