The Hartford Loop.... What Is It? What Does It Do? 

Thanks!

You're welcome!

From my perspective, HVAC folks seem to only know about heat pumps & furnaces and tend to run away from boilers.

⁠@@gordonschweizer5154every hvac company in my area NY including my company does boilers. And most do steam boilers

Thanks 👍

I thank you for your support! I think, since this is really an up-side down trap, the air (or steam) in the top of the equalizer line breaks the siphon. Even if I was to put a wet-vac on the wet return drain, it could not, will not, draw the water from the boiler (only air or steam will issue forth) for this very reason.

@@elgordo271 When I look at Hardfort loop, all I see is the Communicating vessels like you said a upside down trap.

We mostly leave it in because of warranty issues. If we swap it out we will most likely fall into a denial trap with the manufacturer.

I've had great success with the cycle gard. On new service accounts, when I see the gauge glass full of sludge, I automatically flush the boiler out, clean the glass, new glass washers and remove/clean the cycle gard probe. Also clean the strainer on the vxt feeder.

You are very welcome! Thanks for your support.

Thanks!

You are welcome! To your questions: You're right, a leak on the return directly to the boiler (or, for that matter, a leak on the boiler itself), is not going to be countered by the Hartford Loop. The Loop will keep the water in the return line full in that case, however, just as you say. Better than nothing, and it just might give a dodgy LWCO a bit more time to react properly.

Thank you! I am so glad this was helpful. I trust you have had a chance to look at my other videos using the Force boiler? Which automatic feeder to you plan to use?

The "Gifford Loop" is, let's just say, controversial. It seems to work, sort of, as the poor man's false water line.

More or less correct, yes. One scenario could go like this: The boiler would run dry and be super hot. Folks would turn on the water supply and add water to the boiler then. The water would boil almost immediately, shooting the pressure inside the boiler sky high. Combined with the cast iron being soft from being red hot, it would rupture.

I see what your saying. That actually sounds like a good idea for a couple reasons. -Isolating the water chest for skim or leak in block, -and isolating your wet return if it leaking so you don’t lose your block. BUT I WOULD TAG THOSE VALVES AS ‘SERVICE ONLY’ AND REMOVE THOSE HANDLES SO THAT SOME CHILD DOES NOT PLAY WITH THEM. .....it happens.

@@bauhnguefyische667 Could Be although if such a thing was desired I would put the valve on the nipple leaving the side tapping to prevent oils from getting trapped in the equalizer and Hartford Loop during a skim process. As far as isolating the wet return during a leak we have a Hartford Loop for that purpose. Unless the leaky pipe sends you heads up right before it burst I do not see how its useful for that. I agree, on my 1/4 turn valves I always add a nipple and cap. This acts as deterrent. If someone where to open a 1/4 valve near the boiler piping while the burners are boiling water; someone could get scalded from the hot water or steam. As oppose to gate valves where you get time to react as the steam and water sip out slowly as you turn the valve. IMO

Mugen Mundo Agreed.

@@bauhnguefyische667 Thou speakest wisdom, sir.

@Mugen Mundo Its not clear in the video above, but the return line to the Loop is sloping back toward the wet return drain by design. That should allow any build up to be flushed out.

Thank you very much for your comments. Is the video I made of the Broomall valve of any help to you? Let me know what you think. I think we should talk. I would look forward to that.

Gordon Schweizer I would love to talk with an experienced Steam Head. I am going to send you a link to my family business. It’s a forgotten art and this generation needs to pass on what we know. It’s about teaching....not getting schooled on a job. I’ve been watching your channel for a couple years and your pretty much what is out there except a few random vids. Teachers teach, the rest rely on ignorance. Thank you! I’ll get contact info to you in next few days, I would enjoy talking with you. I maybe able to visit your shop as well if you would like. Steam needs good mentors like you to pass along what we have learned and the history (that’s my favorite part). I hope we can talk soon, Gordon!

Gordon Schweizer This is my professional tag. I’ll be putting some vids up soon. Can’t wait to talk with you as a tradesman. I’m licensed in Maryland and De as HVAC Master Class. Thank you for sharing what you know, the next generation depends on our shared knowledge.

@@wetheadedtinknocker6887 My professional tag is All Steamed Up, Inc. in Towson, Md.

Gordon Schweizer Well received. I’m mostly known for Hydronics and Geothermal, but I have been around steam, mostly churches since I was a kid. Family business, you start young. You know. It’s simple, you’ll spend your whole life learning that. Then some simpleton will ‘fix’ it and a hundred years of smart will get ignored. You can’t fix that, but you can show them at least. My Family Business is Hentkowski Inc, we are in Wilmington, De. We have a web site but it does not cover hot water/steam. I want to change that and have been the impetus on boiler work for almost 20years. Radiators and flat panels are just more comfortable and efficient for heat.

It sounds like you might need a visit from an experienced boiler tech

I would read and try to understand the cleaning procedures that the manufacturer of your particular boiler has in their instructions. As I understand it, very few manufacturers recommend the use of chemicals. Too many things can go wrong. Persistence and boring repetition eventually win a clean, silent boiler.

No really. If the that valve is shut, it's as if the wet return is clogged, and the water will back up in the drips. But before that happens, the boiler will run low on water. So as long as the LWCO is working, no worries.

Sorry, we don't do that very often in our area. We've only done it twice in almost 18 years.

Not as much as they should!

@@gordonschweizer5154 thanks for the reply,i guess it comes down to homeowners not wanting to pay ,but heating up virtually unused basements seems crazy

@@dannywilkins887 I'm not sure exactly what the issue is! I think in a lot of cases, it may be more a resistance to change than a pure dollars and cents issue. I will insulate the pipes if the customer insists I do it (and pays me), but always I point out that there are folks who will do that job faster, cheaper, and better than I can. It is something I often advise the customer to do themselves. Any job worth doing is worth doing badly. I do that so it should be abundantly clear to my customer that I am recommending pipe insulation purely for THEIR benefit and not for my profit. I tell my customers that if they insulate their steam main pipes, two things will happen: (1) Their basement will be cooler. (2) They will wish that they had done it sooner.

@@elgordo271 lol good reply-keep up the videos really enjoy seeing different ways of doing things across the pond.

@@elgordo271 Great video. I'm a new homeowner and came across uninsulated steam main. I want to insulate it, but one half of the main is the unfinished area which I'm fine with insulating. The challenge is the other half of the main goes through a finished area. When insulating, should the whole main be done at the same time? I think it would create an imbalance if I did one half and not the other half.

Thank you for your kind words. They are much appreciated. In regards to taking apart a radiator and shortening it, is the radiator in question a type with outside tie rods? If it doesn't have those tie rods, I would not attempt to take it apart.

In the USA, most States follow the CSD-1 Boiler Code. That code requires, among other things, a secondary LWCO with manual reset on all steam boilers fired at or above 400,000 BTU/Hr. That leaves out, not always to the good, most residential sized steam boilers such as this one.

This Chanel is much more. I’m learning so much with the discussion…

The video you are referring to was made by a good fellow that I've had the pleasure of meeting in real life. He and I had a friendly discussion then on the merits of the Hartford Loop. He makes the point that with the small water content boilers nowadays, the Hartford Loop only provides minutes of protection before a dryfire. It is difficult to honestly dispute that he may have a point. The only thing I can add is to say that the Hartford Loop may give a "sluggish" LWCO a fighting chance to do it's job and shut down the boiler before it's too late. The idea for a back-up LWCO is a good one but boils down (HA!) to at what cost vs actual danger of a dryfire. I had the thought of a temperature sensor, much like the ones used for roll-outs and blocked flues, to be put on the block itself somewhere and that might provide a cheap back-up for a failing LWCO with little chance of a nuisance shut-down. Note, on larger steam boilers (greater than 400,000BTU/hr) manual reset LWCOs are required, as you may know - as well as a Hartford Loop

@@gordonschweizer5154 I agree. You seem to be a particular guy, with several best practices that are virtual 'signature' practices. I found his video provoking, and I told him as much---that I found it helpful and informative. I came to a different conclusion; that the hartford loop could be made a bit more effective; and that several minutes he found as worthless could be useful. Whether it's suplemental safeties or an alarm, My instinct was the HL was still needed. I appreciated his experiment. But I came to a different conclusion, as wht it means and what we should do about it.

@@gordonschweizer5154 and, no, I did not know.

@@raindogs451 I try not to lecture too much to folks that already seem to know much about steam boilers...that is to say it is often difficult to gauge to whom and at what level I am commenting to and I don't want to be insulting. But others may read these comments and glean a factoid or two.

No, that is my glitchy brain searching for the right words... And failing. These are low production valve videos done in one or two takes at the end of a long day. I am glad that they may provide some helpful info. My best to you, sir!

Then you will most likely need a new boiler.

Your point is well taken, you are not wrong. Often, I remove the handle and zip-tie it somewhere nearby. That generally reduces unintentional shut offs. I believe that the usefulness of that valve in maintaining clean water in steam systems outweighs the slight risk that the valve would be shut off by ignorance or whatever.

Thankyou for responding. Im licensed oil burner tech. Ive work on heating systems for 40 years in Massachusetts. Never saw shut off there. Thats what I would do remove Handel.

It's literally in the near boiler piping schematics for every steam boiler I've ever installed. Reading piping schematics as per manufacturer is key to maintaining warranties.

5 minutes is better than zero minutes, eh? That 5 minutes might be enough to allow a sleeping low water cut off to wake up and do its duty. It's also Code.

At this point, it really doesn't matter what I or you may think about the current usefulness of the Hartford Loop. It's still Code and has been for over a century. So, I'm still gonna put them in. At the least, it can help keep steam out of the wet returns with the lower water levels nowadays.

doesnt the vxt feeder shutoff lockout after so many gallons?

@@petergriffin1546 The VXT locks out after two consecutive attempts to satisfy a continuous call for water from the low water cut off. Delay times and gallons per feed are set by the user.

I... suck?

@@gordonschweizer5154 lol i was commenting for future apprentice who will use your videos You don’t suck, great video 👍

You don't really need to wear a seat-belt. Until it's needed. The Hartford Loop is Code and every steam boiler manufacturer calls for it to be installed in their installation instructions. But no, you're right. It's not needed. Until it is. FAFO